Is the incubator full?

["John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>]

All,

I'm wondering if the Apache Incubator is full right now?  I've noticed a
few things:

- There was a note a few months ago that the incubator does have a max
capacity.  At that point, things start to slow down.
- The discussions involved when a new project comes in have dwindled.
- The number of eyes looking at releases have reduced.

So I wonder, is the incubator full? Has capacity plateaued and we should
discourage projects from joining?  Are there projects that we should
strongly encourage to graduate?

John

Re: Is the incubator full?

[Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>]

I like the slider metaphor.

When I mentor, I like to start with the slider hard over by active,
especially during champion phase, but moving toward passive after the first
clean release and report or two.

I don't think that inactive projects actually require all that much thought
or action. The ones that take time are the ones with a poisonous
personality or total melt-down due to misunderstanding what Apache is. For
instance, Datafu hardly takes any effort for it to sit in incubator.
Corinthia took a very lot of time over a short time to resolve.

As I see it, we have a variety of kinds of workloads that have variable
levels of scalability. The mentorship is supposed to scale by picking off
volunteers from incubation projects as they come by ... Taylor is a poster
child recently for that.

Release checking is a less scalable resource that we have not scaled lately.

Explosion cleanup is also much less scalable, partly because it is hard to
predict what the workload will be and partly because it is unpleasant work.

If we decide that we want to meter the number of projects and can agree on
a metering level, it is actually not that hard to do the throttling on
intake. All we have to do is change our voting to be a periodic stack
ranking of incoming candidates to fit into available holes.

Agreeing on the number of available holes is a lot harder to do. Getting
consensus on that probably means that we need to identify some functions
and let those volunteering for that function decide that the current load
is higher than, lower than or equal to what they can handle. If all of our
functions agree that we can handle more, we increase slots. If one function
feels that they are overloaded, we decrease slots. Else, slots remains the
same.

My guess is that doing this well will feel a lot like busywork /
bureaucracy.

Does anybody else have a thought on that?




On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 5:40 PM, P. Taylor Goetz <pt...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> > On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:41 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 7:26 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >> All,
> >>
> >> I'm wondering if the Apache Incubator is full right now?
> >
> > It seems that this question gets asked about once a year. The consensus
> > always seems to be that this may not be the right question to ask. It is
> > sort of like asking whether Hadoop has too many lines of Java. On a more
> > serious note, I think that the takeaway from each of these threads over
> > the years has been that the right question to ask is whether we're
> providing
> > podlings with support they need to emerge as TLPs ASAP. I think that
> should
> > be the focus of IPMC. A maniacal focus on getting the projects out
> either as
> > TLPs or to the Attic should, indeed, be a constant priority for us. I
> know I'm
> > in the minority when I say this, but I think this should be one of the
> few areas
> > where IPMC and/or IPMC Chair gets to drive the inquiry as opposed to
> mentors
> > doing it. Wave sitting in the Incubator since 2010 is clearly NOT in
> anybody's
> > best interest.
>
> In my limited experience with mentoring, there seems to be a spectrum of
> mentoring "styles" (for lack of a better word):
>
> 1. Active
> Mentors actively push/nudge/prod the podling toward what it takes to
> graduate. They ask questions like "Is it time for a release?", "What is the
> plan for expanding the community?",  etc. in effect, the podling is pushed
> toward the finish line (graduation). The benefit to the IPMC is that
> podlings, theoretically graduate sooner, and graduate with an understanding
> of the *current* ASF policies/guidelines.
>
> 2. Passive
> Mentors are mostly hands-off and reactive vs. proactive. Email threads
> with "[MENTOR]" in the subject will trigger a response/review, as will VOTE
> threads, signs of community strife, etc. The benefit to this approach is
> that it forces podlings to learn to navigate ASF policy on their own (which
> can be daunting to newbies, but a skill that all TLPs should have).
>
> In reality Active/Passive is a slider that moves depending on the nature
> of the podling community all the way down to the nature of a particular
> interaction. I bounce back and forth with my approach depending on the
> context.
>
> My point is about answering "How to graduate podlings faster?" Which I
> feel Roman is alluding to. If we're push podlings to graduate, we may want
> to consider more concrete/documented criteria for greaduation.
>
> -Taylor
>
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Re: Is the incubator full?

["P. Taylor Goetz" <pt...@gmail.com>]

> On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:41 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 7:26 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
>> All,
>> 
>> I'm wondering if the Apache Incubator is full right now?
> 
> It seems that this question gets asked about once a year. The consensus
> always seems to be that this may not be the right question to ask. It is
> sort of like asking whether Hadoop has too many lines of Java. On a more
> serious note, I think that the takeaway from each of these threads over
> the years has been that the right question to ask is whether we're providing
> podlings with support they need to emerge as TLPs ASAP. I think that should
> be the focus of IPMC. A maniacal focus on getting the projects out either as
> TLPs or to the Attic should, indeed, be a constant priority for us. I know I'm
> in the minority when I say this, but I think this should be one of the few areas
> where IPMC and/or IPMC Chair gets to drive the inquiry as opposed to mentors
> doing it. Wave sitting in the Incubator since 2010 is clearly NOT in anybody's
> best interest.

In my limited experience with mentoring, there seems to be a spectrum of mentoring "styles" (for lack of a better word):

1. Active
Mentors actively push/nudge/prod the podling toward what it takes to graduate. They ask questions like "Is it time for a release?", "What is the plan for expanding the community?",  etc. in effect, the podling is pushed toward the finish line (graduation). The benefit to the IPMC is that podlings, theoretically graduate sooner, and graduate with an understanding of the *current* ASF policies/guidelines.

2. Passive
Mentors are mostly hands-off and reactive vs. proactive. Email threads with "[MENTOR]" in the subject will trigger a response/review, as will VOTE threads, signs of community strife, etc. The benefit to this approach is that it forces podlings to learn to navigate ASF policy on their own (which can be daunting to newbies, but a skill that all TLPs should have). 

In reality Active/Passive is a slider that moves depending on the nature of the podling community all the way down to the nature of a particular interaction. I bounce back and forth with my approach depending on the context.

My point is about answering "How to graduate podlings faster?" Which I feel Roman is alluding to. If we're push podlings to graduate, we may want to consider more concrete/documented criteria for greaduation.

-Taylor

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Re: Is the incubator full?

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Andy Seaborne <an...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...Is the incubator full?  No, but it needs to be careful about the nature
> of the set of mentors...

I fully agree with that, we should aim for podlings which are
"self-sustaining" in the sense that their mentors take care of them
with a minimal burden on the Incubator itself. That's self-regulating
based on the actual work that mentors are doing.

The downside of that is that we still need podlings to converge on a
common way of operating, so we need to make sure that the Incubator at
large takes a close look at the podling before graduating.

As mentioned before I think the project maturity model at
https://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
is a good tool to help ask the right questions before graduation, and
I encourage every podling to publish their self-assessment based on
that before their graduation vote (example at [1]).

-Bertrand

[1]

https://github.com/apache/incubator-groovy/blob/576b3c5d6a7022ac4a8df1ef118666456ce627fb/MATURITY.adoc

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Re: Is the incubator full?

[Andy Seaborne <an...@apache.org>]

On 25/08/16 07:34, Sergio Fern�ndez wrote:
>> > I think you may be seeing signs of self-throttling. Basically if the
>> > new proposal
>> > comes in and there's nobody interested in mentoring it -- well the project
>> > won't
>> > go in.
>
> Well, that just 1% of the work. Every body could easily volunteer for
> mentoring; most os the work at that phase is done by the champion. But what
> really requires time is actually mentoring the podling. My feeling is (I
> have no figures) that is most of our current podling we have just 1-2
> active mentors. That would be another way to look to that detail.

That agrees with my experience.

A commitment to mentoring for 2 or more years is substantial. My 
experience has been that mentors fade away for all the obvious reasons 
of volunteers+(lack of)time.  Signing up to mentor is the easy part and 
everyone is well-intentioned.

So is the incubator full?  No, but it needs to be careful about the 
nature of the set of mentors.

	Andy

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Re: Is the incubator full?

[Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org>]

Hi,

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:41 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 7:26 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > I'm wondering if the Apache Incubator is full right now?
>

Very interesting question.... I wouldn't say full, because volunteering is
hard to allocate in slots. But John is right, we're operating in the limits
of our capacity.

It seems that this question gets asked about once a year. The consensus
> always seems to be that this may not be the right question to ask. It is
> sort of like asking whether Hadoop has too many lines of Java. On a more
> serious note, I think that the takeaway from each of these threads over
> the years has been that the right question to ask is whether we're
> providing
> podlings with support they need to emerge as TLPs ASAP. I think that should
> be the focus of IPMC. A maniacal focus on getting the projects out either
> as
> TLPs or to the Attic should, indeed, be a constant priority for us. I know
> I'm
> in the minority when I say this, but I think this should be one of the few
> areas
> where IPMC and/or IPMC Chair gets to drive the inquiry as opposed to
> mentors
> doing it. Wave sitting in the Incubator since 2010 is clearly NOT in
> anybody's
> best interest.
>

Can we say if a podling stays incubating for a time (5 years?) is in a
heavy risk of leaving the incubator? I know each podling has different
timing; but I'l pretty sure we could find some common-sense milestones.

> So I wonder, is the incubator full? Has capacity plateaued and we should
> > discourage projects from joining?  Are there projects that we should
> > strongly encourage to graduate?
>
> I think you may be seeing signs of self-throttling. Basically if the
> new proposal
> comes in and there's nobody interested in mentoring it -- well the project
> won't
> go in.


Well, that just 1% of the work. Every body could easily volunteer for
mentoring; most os the work at that phase is done by the champion. But what
really requires time is actually mentoring the podling. My feeling is (I
have no figures) that is most of our current podling we have just 1-2
active mentors. That would be another way to look to that detail.


> In terms of reviewing releases -- Justin truly deserves a
> medal, but aside from his awesome efforts.


Absolutely! I have to pay him a Rebujito in Sevilla in Autumn ;-)

Cheers,

-- 
Sergio Fernández
Partner Technology Manager
Redlink GmbH
m: +43 6602747925
e: sergio.fernandez@redlink.co
w: http://redlink.co

Re: Is the incubator full?

[Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>]

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 7:26 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
> All,
>
> I'm wondering if the Apache Incubator is full right now?

It seems that this question gets asked about once a year. The consensus
always seems to be that this may not be the right question to ask. It is
sort of like asking whether Hadoop has too many lines of Java. On a more
serious note, I think that the takeaway from each of these threads over
the years has been that the right question to ask is whether we're providing
podlings with support they need to emerge as TLPs ASAP. I think that should
be the focus of IPMC. A maniacal focus on getting the projects out either as
TLPs or to the Attic should, indeed, be a constant priority for us. I know I'm
in the minority when I say this, but I think this should be one of the few areas
where IPMC and/or IPMC Chair gets to drive the inquiry as opposed to mentors
doing it. Wave sitting in the Incubator since 2010 is clearly NOT in anybody's
best interest.

A related question of how many TLPs can ASF support (in terms of INFRA,
process, etc.) is a good one, but goes outside of the the scope of IPMC in
my opinion.

Now that I'm done with generic statements a few comments in-line:

> I've noticed a few things:
>
> - There was a note a few months ago that the incubator does have a max
> capacity.  At that point, things start to slow down.
> - The discussions involved when a new project comes in have dwindled.
> - The number of eyes looking at releases have reduced.
>
> So I wonder, is the incubator full? Has capacity plateaued and we should
> discourage projects from joining?  Are there projects that we should
> strongly encourage to graduate?

I think you may be seeing signs of self-throttling. Basically if the
new proposal
comes in and there's nobody interested in mentoring it -- well the project won't
go in. In terms of reviewing releases -- Justin truly deserves a
medal, but aside
from his awesome efforts I actually see mentors fairly engaged
recently. Coincidentally
that's why I always advise podligns to ask for 3 mentors -- since those are the
guaranteed pairs of eyes and binding votes that the process requires.

All in call, I guess I just don't see anything that would make us
think of course-correction.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Is the incubator full?

[Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb...@nanthrax.net>]

Hi John,

Fair question. I think we accepted lot of projects in the incubator 
recently.

IMHO, the first action to do is to check with the current podlings the 
ones ready to graduate. I think we have at least 2 or 3 podlings ready.

On the other hand, we can also double check the global podling activity.

WDYT ?

Regards
JB

On 08/23/2016 04:26 PM, John D. Ament wrote:
> All,
>
> I'm wondering if the Apache Incubator is full right now?  I've noticed a
> few things:
>
> - There was a note a few months ago that the incubator does have a max
> capacity.  At that point, things start to slow down.
> - The discussions involved when a new project comes in have dwindled.
> - The number of eyes looking at releases have reduced.
>
> So I wonder, is the incubator full? Has capacity plateaued and we should
> discourage projects from joining?  Are there projects that we should
> strongly encourage to graduate?
>
> John
>

-- 
Jean-Baptiste Onofr�
jbonofre@apache.org
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://www.talend.com

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