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Posted to user@struts.apache.org by John Henry Xu <xi...@email.com> on 2005/07/06 23:23:40 UTC
(OT) Re: Struts vs .NET???
Hi Dakota Jack, very funny.
I think someone had suggested to put this thread to OT.
BTW, I don't want spend too much time on this and I had said enough about you in my emails.
Now I can focus on my job and be more productive by not having to write getters and setters manually.
Only when I wrote million line codes I realized how insane to write something machine can produce perfectly to you. That's the difference between us.
Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor
http://www.usanalyst.com
http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dakota Jack"
To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 07:54:18 -0700
>
> Okay, okay, Reumann. Do you want to be right or do you want to be
> loving? ///;-) Xu really is not all that atuned to computer stuff,
> even though he is a computer journalist, so you might take him on
as
> your grasshopper? ///;-)
>
> On 7/5/05, Rick Reumann wrote:
> > John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/2/2005 6:43 AM:
> >
> > > Is writting
> > > lots of getters and setters manually the most productive way in
real
> > > projects?
> >
> > You keep coming back to this getters and setters thing:) Like I
said any
> > editor (even vim:) can create getters and setters. I take it you
think
> > Struts is all about getters and setters? Seriously, don't take
offense
> > to this, but I'm wondering how many Struts applications you
actually
> > coded? I usually have several ActionForms and some beans which do
have
> > get/set methods. The beans (value objects/dto's) I'd have even if
I was
> > coding an application in Swing/.NET or whatever. So your main
thrust
> > here seems to be about ActionForms and get/set methods? Honestly
that's
> > such a small part of the whole process I still can't believe you
are
> > harping on it. I think we can terminate listening to your posts
because
> > of this statement:
> >
> > "My experience was Struts have more
> > codes and configuration files than straight forward
JSP+Javabean+taglibs
> > approach that was done before."
> >
> > This tells me either:
> >
> > A) You haven't used Struts much
> >
> > OR
> >
> > C) The applications you write using your home-grown approach have
to be
> > quite sucky and would be a royal pain to maintain and refactor as
> > requirements change.
> >
> > I make this claim because Struts (and other web application
frameworks)
> > provide ALREADY WRITTEN CODE in jars that you'd have to write
YOURSELF
> > if you didn't use a framework. So, to quote you, - more lines
mean more
> > time and a waste of money. So under your own logic you are
costing your
> > company a TON of money and you might want to think about adopting
some
> > web framework for your developers to start using.
> >
> > I can get into all the little things web frameworks provide, but
here
> > are some simple questions I have for you that maybe you can
answer from
> > 'your experience'...
> >
> > Where do your forms submit to?
> >
> > How do you handle/configure where the page forwards to after the
request
> > is sent?
> >
> > When you need to change the flow of the application (what page
forwards
> > to where) how do you make this change?
> >
> > How do you handle server side validation problems and display
messages
> > to the user about these server side problems?
> >
> > If you handled ANY of the above than I will GUARANTEE you that I
can
> > take your SAME application, and not change any of your business
logic,
> > and end up with code that is CLEANER and, most importantly from
your
> > perspective, written in LESS lines.
> >
> > I truly truly would love for you to zip up a sample of one of
your web
> > applications and let us check out this 'smaller' code base.
Please do
> > it. Pretty please.
> >
> > I'm sorry if I sound a bit hostile, but I've had this 'argument'
with so
> > many people over the years. They say stuff like "I don't see why
use
> > (insert your favorite web framework), you just complicate things
and end
> > up with more code and configuration files." Then what happens is
I see
> > their code and see all the wasted stuff they are doing that a web
> > framework provides 'out of the box.' I think the problem is these
people
> > don't see how the framework saves time because they haven't
worked with.
> >
> > Do these frameworks have problems? Yes, they do. I'm not a fan of
> > ActionForms myself, but I do see their place in the Struts world.
JSF
> > seems to have gotten rid of them. Some frameworks the learning
curve
> > looks too steep for me to invest the time in it (Spring's UI
framework
> > seemed to be one of these back in the day when I first considered
it...
> > the docs sucked). Others out there seem good, but I'm just too
> > comfortable with Struts to make the change. I can whip out a
quality web
> > app using Struts and iBATIS in practically no time at all.
Granted, yes,
> > Struts has a learning curve, but once you learn it you can apply
it to
> > any app or other apps that are coded with it. Conversely, if we
take
> > your "JSP+Javabean+taglibs only" application it will be much more
> > difficult for a new person to the application to understand
(again, you
> > are all about saving money so I'm not sure how you can't see how
your
> > home-grown approach will cost you more in the long run).
> >
> > --
> > Rick
> >
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
>
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Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor
http://www.usanalyst.com
http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
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Re: (OT) Re: Struts vs .NET???
Posted by PC Leung <pc...@gmail.com>.
very good article on this topic.
http://java.oreilly.com/news/farley_0800.html
On 7/7/05, Emmanouil Batsis <Em...@eurodyn.com> wrote:
>
> John Henry Xu wrote:
>
> >Now I can focus on my job and be more productive by not having to write
> getters and setters manually.
> >
> >Only when I wrote million line codes I realized how insane to write
> something machine can produce perfectly to you.
> >
>
> The choice of a methodology like Model Driven development is totally
> independent with the framework you use. I use struts but never write a
> single form or action for search or CRUD operations.
>
> Just my 0.2.
>
> Manos
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
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>
>
Re: (OT) Re: Struts vs .NET???
Posted by Emmanouil Batsis <Em...@eurodyn.com>.
John Henry Xu wrote:
>Now I can focus on my job and be more productive by not having to write getters and setters manually.
>
>Only when I wrote million line codes I realized how insane to write something machine can produce perfectly to you.
>
The choice of a methodology like Model Driven development is totally
independent with the framework you use. I use struts but never write a
single form or action for search or CRUD operations.
Just my 0.2.
Manos
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