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Posted to server-dev@james.apache.org by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> on 2002/08/20 03:16:42 UTC
Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
The default configuration (yeah, yeah, it says to check it but it doesn't
give guidelines) is accepted by name e-mail servers, but not by AOL, as
shown:
telnet mailin-03.mx.aol.com 25
Trying 64.12.137.121...
Connected to mailin-03.mx.aol.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
220-rly-xh01.mx.aol.com ESMTP mail_relay_in-xh1.4; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:06:43
2000
220-America Online (AOL) and its affiliated companies do not
220- authorize the use of its proprietary computers and computer
220- networks to accept, transmit, or distribute unsolicited bulk
220 e-mail sent from the internet.
HELO mail.devtech.com
250 rly-xh01.mx.aol.com OK
MAIL FROM: <po...@localhost>
501 SYNTAX ERROR IN PARAMETERS OR ARGUMENTS
MAIL FROM: <postmaster>
501 SYNTAX ERROR IN PARAMETERS OR ARGUMENTS
MAIL FROM: postmaster
501 SYNTAX ERROR IN PARAMETERS OR ARGUMENTS
MAIL FROM: <ro...@localhost>
501 SYNTAX ERROR IN PARAMETERS OR ARGUMENTS
MAIL FROM: <po...@mail.devtech.com>
250 OK
Is it reasonable to change the internal default from "root@localhost" to
"postmaster@helloName"?
--- Noel
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RE: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> That AOL, and many others apache included, won't accept mail from
> unreturnable addresses is neither here nor there.
This is the point of disagreement. The e-mail address is unreturnable. Why
should an enterprise mail server have an unreturnable default postmaster
address?
It isn't the local part (root vs postmaster) that bothers me, since
PostmasterAlias takes care of the local part mapping; it is the use of
localhost. Given how PostmasterAlias works, any other valid domain that the
server listens on would be a better fallback than localhost, IMO.
Regardless, I do feel strongly that we need to document why the default
configured value of postmaster@localhost is a bad idea.
--- Noel
P.S. I have no idea why Peter likes the idea. I hadn't discussed it with
him.
-----Original Message-----
From: Danny Angus [mailto:danny@apache.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 2:44
To: James Developers List
Subject: RE: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
> Is it reasonable to change the internal default from "root@localhost" to
> "postmaster@helloName"?
No, root@localhost is a reasonable default email address, it is a real email
address, it refers to a real account on a real machine.
That AOL, and many others apache included, won't accept mail from
unreturnable addresses is neither here nor there.
>
> --- Noel
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RE: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Not quite, if an MX record doesn't exist mail should be sent to the A
record
> host. (like @apache.org which has no MX and works just fine..)
It works just fine. :-) The issue I was alluding to was more along the
lines of a lot of admins expressing ire at programs that don't use MX
records. James does it properly.
> Thats still a reasonable position to take. and root@localhost is still a
> valid address.
If you look at the patch, you'll find that postmaster@localhost becomes the
ultimate fallback, so that was preserved. As stated in the comment:
// if there is no @domain part, then add the first one from the
// list of supported domains that isn't localhost. If that
// doesn't work, use the hostname, even if it is localhost.
So the code is biased towards a routable addresss, but it will still
fallback as necessary.
--- Noel
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RE: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
> James doesn't send mail to servers, despite what the <servername> element
> implies; we send e-mail to domains, based upon their MX records (although
> other apps violate the spec and try a domain's A record).
Not quite, if an MX record doesn't exist mail should be sent to the A record
host. (like @apache.org which has no MX and works just fine..)
> Frankly, the administrator SHOULD set a valid postmaster entry in the
> configuration file, as we tell them to, but we need to tell them to *not*
> use @localhost.
<snip>
>let them set the element as the configuration tells them
> to do.
Thats still a reasonable position to take. and root@localhost is still a
valid address.
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RE: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Danny,
The hello name isn't available at the time when we're setting up the
postmaster. Actually, that was my original suggestion, but I've since
changed my mind. There is no guarantee that the hello name is a domain name
with an MX record. For example, if you were to lookup mail.devtech.com, it
is an A record, and used in an MX record, but is not a domain with a zone.
James doesn't send mail to servers, despite what the <servername> element
implies; we send e-mail to domains, based upon their MX records (although
other apps violate the spec and try a domain's A record).
We specify postmaster@domain.tld such that domain.tld must be in the
servernames collection. The hello name might very well be domain.tld, or it
might be xxxx.domain.tld, but unless xxxx.domain.tld is also in the
servernames collection, the e-mail would be rejected as being non-local, so
we need whatever domain is used to be in the servernames collection.
Frankly, the administrator SHOULD set a valid postmaster entry in the
configuration file, as we tell them to, but we need to tell them to *not*
use @localhost. If there is no "@domain" part of the name, then literally
any valid domain from the servernames collection will get to the postmaster
(due to PostmasterAlias). It isn't our job to pick the most esthetically
pleasing address: let them set the element as the configuration tells them
to do.
I've prepared a patch, and will submit along with the others.
--- Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: Danny Angus [mailto:danny@apache.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 17:44
To: James Developers List
Subject: RE: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
I give in, you guys are probably right, can we use postmaster at the SMTP
helloName?
Could we then also do:
<postmaster autoDetect="false">me@mydomain</postmaster>
and
<postmaster autodetect="true"/>
just to make it quite clear that its being autodetected.
d.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter M. Goldstein [mailto:peter_m_goldstein@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 20 August 2002 20:34
> To: 'James Developers List'
> Subject: RE: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
>
>
>
> Danny,
>
> > No, root@localhost is a reasonable default email address, it is a real
> > email
> > address, it refers to a real account on a real machine.
> > That AOL, and many others apache included, won't accept mail from
> > unreturnable addresses is neither here nor there.
>
> I very much disagree with this point.
>
> The use of localhost within the default configuration shows a bias that
> is not reflected in most real world use of email. "localhost" is not
> addressable. There are no MX records that resolve to "localhost". It
> is only a viable postmaster email if one assumes that the sender is on
> the same SMTP server as the postmaster. In general situations this will
> not be the case. However, if I have an addressable, resolvable domain
> for the email then it will work in the general case (different SMTP
> server from the postmaster) and in the local case (same SMTP server as
> the postmaster).
>
> --Peter
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
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RE: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
I give in, you guys are probably right, can we use postmaster at the SMTP
helloName?
Could we then also do:
<postmaster autoDetect="false">me@mydomain</postmaster>
and
<postmaster autodetect="true"/>
just to make it quite clear that its being autodetected.
d.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter M. Goldstein [mailto:peter_m_goldstein@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 20 August 2002 20:34
> To: 'James Developers List'
> Subject: RE: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
>
>
>
> Danny,
>
> > No, root@localhost is a reasonable default email address, it is a real
> > email
> > address, it refers to a real account on a real machine.
> > That AOL, and many others apache included, won't accept mail from
> > unreturnable addresses is neither here nor there.
>
> I very much disagree with this point.
>
> The use of localhost within the default configuration shows a bias that
> is not reflected in most real world use of email. "localhost" is not
> addressable. There are no MX records that resolve to "localhost". It
> is only a viable postmaster email if one assumes that the sender is on
> the same SMTP server as the postmaster. In general situations this will
> not be the case. However, if I have an addressable, resolvable domain
> for the email then it will work in the general case (different SMTP
> server from the postmaster) and in the local case (same SMTP server as
> the postmaster).
>
> --Peter
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
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RE: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
Posted by "Peter M. Goldstein" <pe...@yahoo.com>.
Danny,
> No, root@localhost is a reasonable default email address, it is a real
> email
> address, it refers to a real account on a real machine.
> That AOL, and many others apache included, won't accept mail from
> unreturnable addresses is neither here nor there.
I very much disagree with this point.
The use of localhost within the default configuration shows a bias that
is not reflected in most real world use of email. "localhost" is not
addressable. There are no MX records that resolve to "localhost". It
is only a viable postmaster email if one assumes that the sender is on
the same SMTP server as the postmaster. In general situations this will
not be the case. However, if I have an addressable, resolvable domain
for the email then it will work in the general case (different SMTP
server from the postmaster) and in the local case (same SMTP server as
the postmaster).
--Peter
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RE: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
> Is it reasonable to change the internal default from "root@localhost" to
> "postmaster@helloName"?
No, root@localhost is a reasonable default email address, it is a real email
address, it refers to a real account on a real machine.
That AOL, and many others apache included, won't accept mail from
unreturnable addresses is neither here nor there.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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RE: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
> Noel et al,
>
> I definitely like this change.
Why, it makes no sense to me?
d.
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RE: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Peter,
Actually, I'm not sure that it's quite right, but I'm fairly sure that it is
an improvement.
For example, my mail server is mail.devtech.com. But the postmaster is
postmaster@devtech.com (actually, postmaster@any-local-domain). I don't
really want mail.devtech.com listed in the configuration as a domain for
which I receive e-mail, but if I don't then with the proposed default,
postmaster@mail.devtech.com, won't be recognized as local. You see my
point?
But that's a more advanced configuration. I think that the proposed change
is still better than @localhost.
--- Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter M. Goldstein [mailto:peter_m_goldstein@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 21:31
To: 'James Developers List'
Subject: RE: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
Noel et al,
I definitely like this change.
--Peter
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 6:17 PM
> To: James-Dev Mailing List
> Subject: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
>
> The default configuration (yeah, yeah, it says to check it but it
doesn't
> give guidelines) is accepted by name e-mail servers, but not by AOL,
as
> shown:
>
> telnet mailin-03.mx.aol.com 25
> Trying 64.12.137.121...
> Connected to mailin-03.mx.aol.com.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> 220-rly-xh01.mx.aol.com ESMTP mail_relay_in-xh1.4; Mon, 19 Aug 2002
> 21:06:43
> 2000
> 220-America Online (AOL) and its affiliated companies do not
> 220- authorize the use of its proprietary computers and computer
> 220- networks to accept, transmit, or distribute unsolicited bulk
> 220 e-mail sent from the internet.
> HELO mail.devtech.com
> 250 rly-xh01.mx.aol.com OK
> MAIL FROM: <po...@localhost>
> 501 SYNTAX ERROR IN PARAMETERS OR ARGUMENTS
> MAIL FROM: <postmaster>
> 501 SYNTAX ERROR IN PARAMETERS OR ARGUMENTS
> MAIL FROM: postmaster
> 501 SYNTAX ERROR IN PARAMETERS OR ARGUMENTS
> MAIL FROM: <ro...@localhost>
> 501 SYNTAX ERROR IN PARAMETERS OR ARGUMENTS
> MAIL FROM: <po...@mail.devtech.com>
> 250 OK
>
> Is it reasonable to change the internal default from "root@localhost"
to
> "postmaster@helloName"?
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:james-dev-
> unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:james-dev-
> help@jakarta.apache.org>
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RE: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
Posted by "Peter M. Goldstein" <pe...@yahoo.com>.
Noel et al,
I definitely like this change.
--Peter
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 6:17 PM
> To: James-Dev Mailing List
> Subject: Configuration: "[postmaster|root]@localhost"
>
> The default configuration (yeah, yeah, it says to check it but it
doesn't
> give guidelines) is accepted by name e-mail servers, but not by AOL,
as
> shown:
>
> telnet mailin-03.mx.aol.com 25
> Trying 64.12.137.121...
> Connected to mailin-03.mx.aol.com.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> 220-rly-xh01.mx.aol.com ESMTP mail_relay_in-xh1.4; Mon, 19 Aug 2002
> 21:06:43
> 2000
> 220-America Online (AOL) and its affiliated companies do not
> 220- authorize the use of its proprietary computers and computer
> 220- networks to accept, transmit, or distribute unsolicited bulk
> 220 e-mail sent from the internet.
> HELO mail.devtech.com
> 250 rly-xh01.mx.aol.com OK
> MAIL FROM: <po...@localhost>
> 501 SYNTAX ERROR IN PARAMETERS OR ARGUMENTS
> MAIL FROM: <postmaster>
> 501 SYNTAX ERROR IN PARAMETERS OR ARGUMENTS
> MAIL FROM: postmaster
> 501 SYNTAX ERROR IN PARAMETERS OR ARGUMENTS
> MAIL FROM: <ro...@localhost>
> 501 SYNTAX ERROR IN PARAMETERS OR ARGUMENTS
> MAIL FROM: <po...@mail.devtech.com>
> 250 OK
>
> Is it reasonable to change the internal default from "root@localhost"
to
> "postmaster@helloName"?
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:james-dev-
> unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:james-dev-
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