You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> on 2015/10/11 23:39:16 UTC
Re: [DISCUSS] [REVISED] Mentor neutrality policy
First off: Can we *please* focus on the revised proposal and not get
into a loop about the original email? I'll change the topic if that helps.
The revised edition, as partly suggested by Sam (and echoed by Bertrand)
was:
- Binding votes on incubation, graduation and/or retirement are only
valid when given by members of the IPMC who are independent from the
podling in question. Mentors are free to recommend such actions, but
cannot cast a vote themselves.
I don't believe I mentioned MIA mentors anywhere - is that something you
wish to discuss as well?
With regards,
Daniel.
On 10/11/2015 11:34 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> I’m -1 on on this. The whole premise of the ASF is that it is a meritocracy and that volunteers at various “levels” of the organization have attained their status because they are trustworthy. Without this premise, the ASF falls apart.
>
> Finally, it’s not clear to me that this addresses the problem of MIA mentors. If they were supposedly tied in some manner to the incubation and graduation of a podling, then they are definitely active during its incubation; I have no problem with that because in my book, they are trustworthy.
>
> I’ve made proposals to solve the problems listed below, the causes of which are, imo, volunteerism and a free ride into a project and its PMC. My proposal was after 3 missed votes, the mentor is automatically removed with simple no-fuss reinstatement procedures should the mentor wish to redeem themselves. Mentors cannot stay with the podling when it graduates.
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>> On Oct 9, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Incubator folks,
>>
>> I would like to propose we adopt a mentor neutrality policy for
>> incubating podlings:
>>
>> - A mentor must not be financially tied to the project or its incubation
>> status.
>> - A mentor must not have a vested interest in incubating, graduating or
>> dismantling a podling that goes beyond the general Apache mission
>> - A mentor must not be affiliated with the entity granting the code
>> (company or original project community)
>>
>> Furthermore, I would like to see this extended to votes on graduating or
>> retiring podlings, so that only people with no organizational (aparty
>> from the ASF) or financial ties to the project (or the companies behind
>> it) can cast a binding vote on graduation or retirement.
>>
>> This would essentially mean:
>>
>> - If you work for a company (or are hired as consultant/advisor) that is
>> entering a project into incubation, you cannot mentor it nor vote
>> for/against its incubation, graduation or retirement.
>> - If you are a in the original community behind the project, you cannot
>> mentor it nor vote for/against it.
>>
>> I believe this would create a neutral mentorship whose sole mission is
>> to guide podlings with the interests of the ASF in mind.
>>
>>
>> Please do discuss this. If there is (mostly) positive feedback, I would
>> like to, at some point, have a vote on including this in the Incubator
>> policy. I realize this would cut down on the number of potential
>> mentors, and I would ask that more people step up to the challenge of
>> mentoring if adopted.
>>
>> With regards,
>> Daniel
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] [REVISED] Mentor neutrality policy
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 5:39 PM, Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> First off: Can we *please* focus on the revised proposal and not get
> into a loop about the original email? I'll change the topic if that helps.
>
> The revised edition, as partly suggested by Sam (and echoed by Bertrand)
> was:
>
> - Binding votes on incubation, graduation and/or retirement are only
> valid when given by members of the IPMC who are independent from the
> podling in question. Mentors are free to recommend such actions, but
> cannot cast a vote themselves.
We seem to be playing a weird game of telephone (a.k.a. Chinese
whispers[1]) as I most emphatically do NOT want to be associated with
that particular suggestion. The only suggestion I would be willing to
be associated with is one where one can call into question votes where
all of the people who voted as a block were ones that were all aligned
externally somehow (a single employer is perhaps the most common case
of this). But that would be an extreme case, and a rule rarely (if
ever) invoked.
When I speak at the ASF, I want to be thought of as someone who has
earned the right to be considered as an individual. That's the way I
treat other ASF members, and the way I want to be treated myself. You
don't get to be an ASF member or a VP or a committer by appointment by
your employer, you get to be any or all of the above by recognition by
a diverse group of your peers.
- Sam Ruby
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] [REVISED] Mentor neutrality policy
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
> On Oct 11, 2015, at 2:39 PM, Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> The revised edition, as partly suggested by Sam (and echoed by Bertrand)
> was:
>
> - Binding votes on incubation, graduation and/or retirement are only
> valid when given by members of the IPMC who are independent from the
> podling in question. Mentors are free to recommend such actions, but
> cannot cast a vote themselves.
I’m think I get it. There are so many ways to make an end run around this, that I feel it would give us a false sense of security.
If you have a problem with a specific individual I would ask, "how did an untrustworthy mentor make it into the 'system’?” Also, that indicates that you, personally, have work to do with the VP of the IPMC.
You indicated that you have a specific concern with an individual. Are you also saying that the problem is systemic?
> I don't believe I mentioned MIA mentors anywhere - is that something you
> wish to discuss as well?
No, sorry, catching up on emails over the Columbus weekend and I got mixed up… :(
Regards,
Alan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] [REVISED] Mentor neutrality policy
Posted by Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>.
And still -1 on the revised proposal for the same reasons I stated before.
Cos
On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 11:39PM, Daniel Gruno wrote:
> First off: Can we *please* focus on the revised proposal and not get
> into a loop about the original email? I'll change the topic if that helps.
>
> The revised edition, as partly suggested by Sam (and echoed by Bertrand)
> was:
>
> - Binding votes on incubation, graduation and/or retirement are only
> valid when given by members of the IPMC who are independent from the
> podling in question. Mentors are free to recommend such actions, but
> cannot cast a vote themselves.
>
> I don't believe I mentioned MIA mentors anywhere - is that something you
> wish to discuss as well?
>
> With regards,
> Daniel.
>
> On 10/11/2015 11:34 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> > I’m -1 on on this. The whole premise of the ASF is that it is a meritocracy and that volunteers at various “levels” of the organization have attained their status because they are trustworthy. Without this premise, the ASF falls apart.
> >
> > Finally, it’s not clear to me that this addresses the problem of MIA mentors. If they were supposedly tied in some manner to the incubation and graduation of a podling, then they are definitely active during its incubation; I have no problem with that because in my book, they are trustworthy.
> >
> > I’ve made proposals to solve the problems listed below, the causes of which are, imo, volunteerism and a free ride into a project and its PMC. My proposal was after 3 missed votes, the mentor is automatically removed with simple no-fuss reinstatement procedures should the mentor wish to redeem themselves. Mentors cannot stay with the podling when it graduates.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Alan
> >
> >> On Oct 9, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Incubator folks,
> >>
> >> I would like to propose we adopt a mentor neutrality policy for
> >> incubating podlings:
> >>
> >> - A mentor must not be financially tied to the project or its incubation
> >> status.
> >> - A mentor must not have a vested interest in incubating, graduating or
> >> dismantling a podling that goes beyond the general Apache mission
> >> - A mentor must not be affiliated with the entity granting the code
> >> (company or original project community)
> >>
> >> Furthermore, I would like to see this extended to votes on graduating or
> >> retiring podlings, so that only people with no organizational (aparty
> >> from the ASF) or financial ties to the project (or the companies behind
> >> it) can cast a binding vote on graduation or retirement.
> >>
> >> This would essentially mean:
> >>
> >> - If you work for a company (or are hired as consultant/advisor) that is
> >> entering a project into incubation, you cannot mentor it nor vote
> >> for/against its incubation, graduation or retirement.
> >> - If you are a in the original community behind the project, you cannot
> >> mentor it nor vote for/against it.
> >>
> >> I believe this would create a neutral mentorship whose sole mission is
> >> to guide podlings with the interests of the ASF in mind.
> >>
> >>
> >> Please do discuss this. If there is (mostly) positive feedback, I would
> >> like to, at some point, have a vote on including this in the Incubator
> >> policy. I realize this would cut down on the number of potential
> >> mentors, and I would ask that more people step up to the challenge of
> >> mentoring if adopted.
> >>
> >> With regards,
> >> Daniel
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Re: [DISCUSS] [REVISED] Mentor neutrality policy
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 5:39 PM, Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> First off: Can we *please* focus on the revised proposal and not get
> into a loop about the original email? I'll change the topic if that helps.
>
> The revised edition, as partly suggested by Sam (and echoed by Bertrand)
> was:
>
> - Binding votes on incubation, graduation and/or retirement are only
> valid when given by members of the IPMC who are independent from the
> podling in question. Mentors are free to recommend such actions, but
> cannot cast a vote themselves.
I am -1 to this revised proposal as well.
I think this proposal would even further politicize or inhibit
projects from coming to the Incubator.
I stand by the criteria that mentors should be ASF members. If you
don't believe that the members can be trusted, then you should be
campaigning to get those individuals removed from membership.
My $.02. -- justin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] [REVISED] Mentor neutrality policy
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 5:39 PM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> First off: Can we *please* focus on the revised proposal and not get
> into a loop about the original email? I'll change the topic if that helps.
>
> The revised edition, as partly suggested by Sam (and echoed by Bertrand)
> was:
>
> - Binding votes on incubation, graduation and/or retirement are only
> valid when given by members of the IPMC who are independent from the
> podling in question. Mentors are free to recommend such actions, but
> cannot cast a vote themselves.
>
> I don't believe I mentioned MIA mentors anywhere - is that something you
> wish to discuss as well?
>
Restricting the vote in such a way is non-substantial. Podlings rarely
graduate with minimal turn out. Even when mentors do vote, they are not
the majority vote. Take a look at the most recent votes to see for
yourself.
My feeling is that this action is a result of one or more members feeling
that one or more recently graduated podlings aren't quite ready yet. I can
accept that, but I doubt that it's caused by internal company drivers.
This sort of input can easily be posted on private@i.a.o,
>
> With regards,
> Daniel.
>
> On 10/11/2015 11:34 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> > I’m -1 on on this. The whole premise of the ASF is that it is a
> meritocracy and that volunteers at various “levels” of the organization
> have attained their status because they are trustworthy. Without this
> premise, the ASF falls apart.
> >
> > Finally, it’s not clear to me that this addresses the problem of MIA
> mentors. If they were supposedly tied in some manner to the incubation and
> graduation of a podling, then they are definitely active during its
> incubation; I have no problem with that because in my book, they are
> trustworthy.
> >
> > I’ve made proposals to solve the problems listed below, the causes of
> which are, imo, volunteerism and a free ride into a project and its PMC.
> My proposal was after 3 missed votes, the mentor is automatically removed
> with simple no-fuss reinstatement procedures should the mentor wish to
> redeem themselves. Mentors cannot stay with the podling when it graduates.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Alan
> >
> >> On Oct 9, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Incubator folks,
> >>
> >> I would like to propose we adopt a mentor neutrality policy for
> >> incubating podlings:
> >>
> >> - A mentor must not be financially tied to the project or its incubation
> >> status.
> >> - A mentor must not have a vested interest in incubating, graduating or
> >> dismantling a podling that goes beyond the general Apache mission
> >> - A mentor must not be affiliated with the entity granting the code
> >> (company or original project community)
> >>
> >> Furthermore, I would like to see this extended to votes on graduating or
> >> retiring podlings, so that only people with no organizational (aparty
> >> from the ASF) or financial ties to the project (or the companies behind
> >> it) can cast a binding vote on graduation or retirement.
> >>
> >> This would essentially mean:
> >>
> >> - If you work for a company (or are hired as consultant/advisor) that is
> >> entering a project into incubation, you cannot mentor it nor vote
> >> for/against its incubation, graduation or retirement.
> >> - If you are a in the original community behind the project, you cannot
> >> mentor it nor vote for/against it.
> >>
> >> I believe this would create a neutral mentorship whose sole mission is
> >> to guide podlings with the interests of the ASF in mind.
> >>
> >>
> >> Please do discuss this. If there is (mostly) positive feedback, I would
> >> like to, at some point, have a vote on including this in the Incubator
> >> policy. I realize this would cut down on the number of potential
> >> mentors, and I would ask that more people step up to the challenge of
> >> mentoring if adopted.
> >>
> >> With regards,
> >> Daniel
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>