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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Grzegorz Kossakowski <gk...@apache.org> on 2007/07/26 15:39:20 UTC
Releasing Cocoon 2.2 final (was: Re: HttpServletRequest vs o.a.c.e.Request
saga continues)
Carsten Ziegeler pisze:
> Grzegorz Kossakowski wrote:
>> Do you remember that we have released RC1 but have not announced it yet?
> Yes, so the release is actually worthless - releasing without anyone
> telling is like writing a book and never publishing it.
On the other hand, without docs such an announcement can spoil our hard work. Imagine flood of mails on user mailing list asking, where on
the hell are docs for C2.2. We need something published.
>> The only reason for this situation is that we don't have new site
>> published yet. There is no documentation about C2.2 officially published
>> so it's nonsense to announce it.
> Yes, so why not just publish the docs and release? What are we *really*
> waiting for? I really doubt that the documentation situation will get
> better the longer we wait. So let's just use what is there - we will see
> if it's sufficient or not.
What we really waiting for? My own list is:
1. Creating docs (or at least one document) for cocoon-servlet-service. I assign this task to myself and I'm willing to provide some
prototype *today*.
2. Structure adjustments. There are already some documents that are at wrong locations or are unreachable at all. It's really task for few
hours of clicking around Daisy.
3. AFAIK, there are some infrastructure glitches but I don't know details.
There is a document http://cocoon.zones.apache.org/daisy/cdocs/g4/1346.html describing the status of our documentation.
My personal opinion is that if few folks started to work on docs right away, we could have it in shape within one or two days because really
thin work is left.
I hope that Reinhard can comment more on this.
>> <snip/>
>> I'm speaking about it because I would like to release Cocoon 2.2 soon,
>> too.
> Once i had the dream that we could release 2.2 in 2005, then i had this
> very realistic dream of releasing it by the end of 2006 - but in the end
> these were all just dreams, so i stopped dreaming.
Yes, I've seen these dreams. Cocoon has a long tradition of being unable to make releases timely. Currently, I'm very motivated to abandon
this hurting-all-of-us tradition.
>> Then my preference is to take following steps:
>> 1. Release 2.1.11 and almost completely freeze 2.1.x branch. We could
>> agree to allow only critical fixes to go there.
> +1
>
>> 2. Release 2.2 version of core and 1.0 version of various blocks. Move
>> cocoon-core:2.2 to maintenance branch and allow bug fixes and small
>> improvements. Same for blocks released as 1.0.
> +1
>
>> 3. We could start development of cocoon-core:2.3 in trunk. Blocks that
>> would depend on cocoon-core:2.3 could be released as 1.1.0 because it's
>> a major change to their dependency. Of course, if block is changed
>> significantly in some other way than change in dependencies it would be
>> released as 1.1.0 too.
> +1
>
>> I also think that we could release cocoon-core:2.3 just after I finish
>> changes to Object Model and Expression handling so people can benefit
>> from it right away.
> +1
>
> Now all you really need are some more committers who would like to
> support this plan - and that's the really hard part. One indication of
> interest is the very low participation in this thread....
No matter how sad is it, you are right. I have nothing good to say about this situation. I only hope that people ignored this thread because
of highly technical subject. I changed it hoping I'm right...
--
Grzegorz Kossakowski
http://reflectingonthevicissitudes.wordpress.com/
Re: Releasing Cocoon 2.2 final
Posted by Grzegorz Kossakowski <gk...@apache.org>.
Reinhard Poetz pisze:
> Felix Knecht wrote:
>>> To that I would add a release plan:
>>>
>>> RC2 - in a week, this time with an anouncement (given that we have a
>>> willing release manager)
>
> Unfortunatly most likely I won't have time for a further release until
> the mid of September. I hope to find the time to publish the website
> next week and write the announcement mail for the RC1 but I can't even
> promise this. I'm sorry but that's all I can do at the moment.
Who else is capable of performing a release? Despite my GSoC work I cannot do it because I don't have my PGP key confirmed by others.
--
Grzegorz Kossakowski
http://reflectingonthevicissitudes.wordpress.com/
Re: Releasing Cocoon 2.2 final
Posted by Reinhard Poetz <re...@apache.org>.
Felix Knecht wrote:
>> To that I would add a release plan:
>>
>> RC2 - in a week, this time with an anouncement (given that we have a
>> willing release manager)
Unfortunatly most likely I won't have time for a further release until the mid
of September. I hope to find the time to publish the website next week and write
the announcement mail for the RC1 but I can't even promise this. I'm sorry but
that's all I can do at the moment.
--
Reinhard Pötz Independent Consultant, Trainer & (IT)-Coach
{Software Engineering, Open Source, Web Applications, Apache Cocoon}
web(log): http://www.poetz.cc
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Releasing Cocoon 2.2 final
Posted by Felix Knecht <fe...@apache.org>.
>
> To that I would add a release plan:
>
> RC2 - in a week, this time with an anouncement (given that we have a
> willing release manager)
> RC3 - a month after RC2
> 2.2 - a month after RC3
Definitely +1
I (even when I'm not a new user of cocoon, but I haven't fully followed
the migration to C22) managed with the existing docs to migrate
applications from C21 to C22.
Many parts of the C21 documentations are still usable for C22 or can
give at least good starting point for help.
>
> We can skip RC3 and go directly to 2.2 if we are in a hurry. The idea is
> that we release unconditionally as is on these dates. If we decide for a
> certain feature or piece of documentation we will continue to just wait
> for ever.
>
> OK, we could go for 2.2 directly without any RCs, I will not vote
> against it. But one or two RCs will give us some valuable user feedback
> and it will also increase the interest during a longer period.
I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to publish the existing documentation
to the productive area with the next RC to get more valuable user feedback.
How many user feedback we got after releasing RC1 and having the
documentation only on daisy's site and on cocoon.zones.apache.org? I
haven't seen much feedback about documentation on these sites.
I'm pretty sure this will not change when keeping the documentation on
these 'developer' sites.
Felix
Re: Releasing Cocoon 2.2 final
Posted by Grzegorz Kossakowski <gk...@apache.org>.
Daniel Fagerstrom pisze:
> Grzegorz Kossakowski skrev:
>
> We just set an unconditional release date. If people are motivated to
> improve documentation that is fine. Otherwise we release with
> documentation as is. The only thing that is strictly necessary is that
> we publish the existing 2.2 documentation.
After revising our docs I can agree with you.
> To that I would add a release plan:
>
> RC2 - in a week, this time with an anouncement (given that we have a
> willing release manager)
> RC3 - a month after RC2
> 2.2 - a month after RC3
>
> We can skip RC3 and go directly to 2.2 if we are in a hurry. The idea is
> that we release unconditionally as is on these dates. If we decide for a
> certain feature or piece of documentation we will continue to just wait
> for ever.
>
> OK, we could go for 2.2 directly without any RCs, I will not vote
> against it. But one or two RCs will give us some valuable user feedback
> and it will also increase the interest during a longer period.
I think that RC2 will be enough. I have been playing with Cocoon for my hobby purposes and it seems to work ok. If there are some serious
problems (that are currently uknown) we can always make a new, fix release *after* releasing 2.2. Further testing does not give us much, IMO.
The only question remaining[1] is who will perform the release?
>
> I ignored the thread because I have no Internet on my sailing boat ;)
:-)
[1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.text.xml.cocoon.devel/74337
--
Grzegorz Kossakowski
http://reflectingonthevicissitudes.wordpress.com/
Re: Releasing Cocoon 2.2 final
Posted by Daniel Fagerstrom <da...@nada.kth.se>.
Grzegorz Kossakowski skrev:
> Carsten Ziegeler pisze:
>> Grzegorz Kossakowski wrote:
>>> Do you remember that we have released RC1 but have not announced it yet?
>> Yes, so the release is actually worthless - releasing without anyone
>> telling is like writing a book and never publishing it.
>
> On the other hand, without docs such an announcement can spoil our hard
> work. Imagine flood of mails on user mailing list asking, where on the
> hell are docs for C2.2. We need something published.
Not everyone is going to start to use it at the same time and some
already has experience and can help others. Also real users and real
questions will show us what needs to improve and create motivation for
us to actually improve it.
>>> The only reason for this situation is that we don't have new site
>>> published yet. There is no documentation about C2.2 officially published
>>> so it's nonsense to announce it.
>> Yes, so why not just publish the docs and release? What are we *really*
>> waiting for? I really doubt that the documentation situation will get
>> better the longer we wait. So let's just use what is there - we will see
>> if it's sufficient or not.
>
> What we really waiting for? My own list is:
> 1. Creating docs (or at least one document) for cocoon-servlet-service.
> I assign this task to myself and I'm willing to provide some prototype
> *today*.
> 2. Structure adjustments. There are already some documents that are at
> wrong locations or are unreachable at all. It's really task for few
> hours of clicking around Daisy.
> 3. AFAIK, there are some infrastructure glitches but I don't know details.
>
> There is a document
> http://cocoon.zones.apache.org/daisy/cdocs/g4/1346.html describing the
> status of our documentation.
>
> My personal opinion is that if few folks started to work on docs right
> away, we could have it in shape within one or two days because really
> thin work is left.
>
> I hope that Reinhard can comment more on this.
We just set an unconditional release date. If people are motivated to
improve documentation that is fine. Otherwise we release with
documentation as is. The only thing that is strictly necessary is that
we publish the existing 2.2 documentation.
>>> <snip/>
>>> I'm speaking about it because I would like to release Cocoon 2.2 soon,
>>> too.
>> Once i had the dream that we could release 2.2 in 2005, then i had this
>> very realistic dream of releasing it by the end of 2006 - but in the end
>> these were all just dreams, so i stopped dreaming.
>
> Yes, I've seen these dreams. Cocoon has a long tradition of being unable
> to make releases timely. Currently, I'm very motivated to abandon this
> hurting-all-of-us tradition.
>
>>> Then my preference is to take following steps:
>>> 1. Release 2.1.11 and almost completely freeze 2.1.x branch. We could
>>> agree to allow only critical fixes to go there.
>> +1
>>
>>> 2. Release 2.2 version of core and 1.0 version of various blocks. Move
>>> cocoon-core:2.2 to maintenance branch and allow bug fixes and small
>>> improvements. Same for blocks released as 1.0.
>> +1
>>
>>> 3. We could start development of cocoon-core:2.3 in trunk. Blocks that
>>> would depend on cocoon-core:2.3 could be released as 1.1.0 because it's
>>> a major change to their dependency. Of course, if block is changed
>>> significantly in some other way than change in dependencies it would be
>>> released as 1.1.0 too.
>> +1
>>
>>> I also think that we could release cocoon-core:2.3 just after I finish
>>> changes to Object Model and Expression handling so people can benefit
>>> from it right away.
>> +1
+1 for the above.
To that I would add a release plan:
RC2 - in a week, this time with an anouncement (given that we have a
willing release manager)
RC3 - a month after RC2
2.2 - a month after RC3
We can skip RC3 and go directly to 2.2 if we are in a hurry. The idea is
that we release unconditionally as is on these dates. If we decide for a
certain feature or piece of documentation we will continue to just wait
for ever.
OK, we could go for 2.2 directly without any RCs, I will not vote
against it. But one or two RCs will give us some valuable user feedback
and it will also increase the interest during a longer period.
>> Now all you really need are some more committers who would like to
>> support this plan - and that's the really hard part. One indication of
>> interest is the very low participation in this thread....
>
> No matter how sad is it, you are right. I have nothing good to say about
> this situation. I only hope that people ignored this thread because of
> highly technical subject. I changed it hoping I'm right...
I ignored the thread because I have no Internet on my sailing boat ;)
/Daniel
Re: Releasing Cocoon 2.2 final
Posted by jo...@verona.se.
Grzegorz Kossakowski <gk...@apache.org> writes:
I'm working on a hobby project with Cocoon 2.2. I have previously
worked on comerial cocoon projects, but it was some time ago.
On returning, I dont think the documentation available now is all that
bad. There are, however, some holes that makes it difficult to get
started. I think you need user feedback to find these holes.
For instance, I spent quite some time yesterday trying to get a simple
cforms application working becaue of these reasons:
- It is not clear where to get forms-samples-styling.xsl
- it is not clear how to propagate the dojo uri to the styling xsl:s
- I failed to propagate a simple jx-flow list to a selectionlist
field( I still dont understand why)
(I followed the forms examples btw)
So to summarize, I think cocoon needs quite some more user feedback,
and the problems can then be fixed rather easily to improve perceived
quality a lot. Quality will not improve a lot at this point by trying
to guess what users will do when cocoon is released.
(also i had a problem with memory not being returned by the cache,
described in other thread)
> Carsten Ziegeler pisze:
>> Grzegorz Kossakowski wrote:
>>> Do you remember that we have released RC1 but have not announced it yet?
>> Yes, so the release is actually worthless - releasing without anyone
>> telling is like writing a book and never publishing it.
>
> On the other hand, without docs such an announcement can spoil our
> hard work. Imagine flood of mails on user mailing list asking, where
> on the hell are docs for C2.2. We need something published.
>
>>> The only reason for this situation is that we don't have new site
>>> published yet. There is no documentation about C2.2 officially published
>>> so it's nonsense to announce it.
>> Yes, so why not just publish the docs and release? What are we *really*
>> waiting for? I really doubt that the documentation situation will get
>> better the longer we wait. So let's just use what is there - we will see
>> if it's sufficient or not.
>
> What we really waiting for? My own list is:
> 1. Creating docs (or at least one document) for
> cocoon-servlet-service. I assign this task to myself and I'm willing
> to provide some prototype *today*.
> 2. Structure adjustments. There are already some documents that are at
> wrong locations or are unreachable at all. It's really task for few
> hours of clicking around Daisy.
> 3. AFAIK, there are some infrastructure glitches but I don't know details.
>
> There is a document http://cocoon.zones.apache.org/daisy/cdocs/g4/1346.html describing the status of our documentation.
>
> My personal opinion is that if few folks started to work on docs right
> away, we could have it in shape within one or two days because really
> thin work is left.
>
> I hope that Reinhard can comment more on this.
>
>>> <snip/>
>>> I'm speaking about it because I would like to release Cocoon 2.2 soon,
>>> too.
>> Once i had the dream that we could release 2.2 in 2005, then i had this
>> very realistic dream of releasing it by the end of 2006 - but in the end
>> these were all just dreams, so i stopped dreaming.
>
> Yes, I've seen these dreams. Cocoon has a long tradition of being
> unable to make releases timely. Currently, I'm very motivated to
> abandon this hurting-all-of-us tradition.
>
>>> Then my preference is to take following steps:
>>> 1. Release 2.1.11 and almost completely freeze 2.1.x branch. We could
>>> agree to allow only critical fixes to go there.
>> +1
>>
>>> 2. Release 2.2 version of core and 1.0 version of various blocks. Move
>>> cocoon-core:2.2 to maintenance branch and allow bug fixes and small
>>> improvements. Same for blocks released as 1.0.
>> +1
>>
>>> 3. We could start development of cocoon-core:2.3 in trunk. Blocks that
>>> would depend on cocoon-core:2.3 could be released as 1.1.0 because it's
>>> a major change to their dependency. Of course, if block is changed
>>> significantly in some other way than change in dependencies it would be
>>> released as 1.1.0 too.
>> +1
>>
>>> I also think that we could release cocoon-core:2.3 just after I finish
>>> changes to Object Model and Expression handling so people can benefit
>>> from it right away.
>> +1
>>
>> Now all you really need are some more committers who would like to
>> support this plan - and that's the really hard part. One indication of
>> interest is the very low participation in this thread....
>
> No matter how sad is it, you are right. I have nothing good to say
> about this situation. I only hope that people ignored this thread
> because of highly technical subject. I changed it hoping I'm right...
>
> --
> Grzegorz Kossakowski
> http://reflectingonthevicissitudes.wordpress.com/
--
Joakim Verona