Re: moving to a top-level project (was: [Ant nudge STATUS] Betterthan we thought...)

[Costin Manolache <cm...@yahoo.com>]

On Tue, 2002-10-29 at 12:13, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

> Great.  Perfect description.  Not disputing the general sentiment (I still
> think it's moving deck chairs around if you move every committer into the
> PMC).

I think it's more about a consistent naming and organization with the 
rest of apache ( and the httpd project where all things started ).

It is also a good opportunity to improve few things:

- find who's tracking what component.
- better tracking of who's active ( if we use 'active committer' def. )
- a way to better pass the message and get people involved in the
monitoring activity

My view was a global 'SPMC' file listing all the people _and_ the
components he's volunteering to monitor ( even if he's not actively
working on it ). STATUS tracks who's working on what.

We can create some rules so that any committer can join the SPMC by
volunteering for some components and participating in some sort 
of load distribution, and use this as a way to pass information.


> > The open questions are:
> > - can jakarta PMC recognize jakarta-commons SPMC and delegate oversight
> > officially ?
> 
> Good question, and I don¹t see why we couldn't ask, although....
> 
> > - if that's not possible, can jakarta-commons form a PMC and ask the
> > ASF board to recognize it ? ( it seems implied that tomcat or ant could
> > do that easily ). If so, can it remain part of jakarta ( and eventually
> > extend/merge with xml.apache.org )
> 
> Yes, it could.  I would really be against J-C separating from jakarta in any
> way.  Renaming all committers to be members of the PMC again seems like
> window dressing until you educate those committers about their
> responsibilities - where I then wonder if there is education to be done, why
> don't we just do it?

I'm not very sure what education - I suspect we all know the rules.

We do need probably a bit more formal organization - and some 
explicit procedures/rules/plans. 

Regarding 'separating from jakarta' - I do think that j-c is in a way 
the 'core' of jakarta ( I don't know any other jakarta sub-project 
to bring so many people together ).

But I wouldn't mind opening it up to xml.apache.org people - we already
have few great committers from xml working on j-c, and I think it would
be great to expand this.



> > - technical details: who is part of the SPMC ( my initial proposal was
> > 'all active committers who like to be', maybe with a 1-2 month delay for
> > very new committers ). I'm sure other opinions will be raised on this.
> 
> This is why I think it's window dressing - why would you *not* allow a
> committer to be participant in the PMC?  Would that reason, whatever it is,
> be a reason for them not to be a committer?  Don't we believe that when we
> make someone a committer, its because they have shown they share the vision
> and are willing to take responsibilty?  It's more than just the ability to
> 'cvs commit'.

I think a 1-2 month delay is just reasonable - to let him get used with 
the environment and the rules. But I'm ok with dropping it ( again, this
is my understanding of httpd procedures ).

Using 'active' is a way to make sure we have things covered up and 
to track the people who are involved. If some European committer 
takes a 3-month vacation he should remove himself from the 'PMC' list
and add back when he returns. This way we'll know that whatever
he was monitoring/working on is not covered and we can redistribute it.

I see little value in a very large PMC where 1/2 of people don't 
track the mailing list. 

I'm also very strongly against any 'elective' system - as you said,
if someone is voted as committer he should also be trusted ( after
some adjustment and READMEs ) as PMC. 



> Just curious - I am asking the same questions about HTTPD and APD, as it
> sounds like it's pretty much the same thing.  They assure me it's not, for
> example the HTTPD PMC election is based on 'merit', where the Jakarta  PMC
> is a 'popularity contest', but no one has yet to define the difference.

AFAIK HTTPD PMC includes every committer. 

I think it's more of a naming issue - the jakarta PMC is mirroring the
board ( i.e. small set of people, elected ). I don't think
it's 'popularity', but more 'trust' that is the target of the election.
Each jakarta subproject behave just like httpd or apr - with all
active committers doing all the code reviews and monitoring and
decisions.

The problem is that we call things differently, and this de-facto
'delegation' that happened since the beginning of jakarta is now 
considered a problem.



> To me, merit would be objective, popularity would be subjective.  However,
> there are no objective measures of merit here, only opinions of those
> voting. (HTTPD has the curious feature that only the existing PMC can vote
> in new members, not the rest of the community... I have yet to ask about
> that....)  My work in Velocity is really valuable to some people (like
> myself :), but someone else, say someone working on Jasper, might not think
> so and believe it is anti-Apache, for example, as one of it's benefits is to
> 'undermine' a standard, JSP, through the offering of an alternative.

Again - IMHO it's trust that is measured by the election. 

And I think trust has nothing to do with what you work on or what
technical opinions you have ( including 'hot' issues like JSP/Velocity).
I think I had technical disagreements with almost everyone in jakarta.


Costin


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Re: moving to a top-level project (was: [Ant nudge STATUS] Betterthan we thought...)

[Costin Manolache <cm...@yahoo.com>]

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

>>> Great.  Perfect description.  Not disputing the general sentiment (I
>>> still think it's moving deck chairs around if you move every committer
>>> into the PMC).
>> 
>> I think it's more about a consistent naming and organization with the
>> rest of apache ( and the httpd project where all things started ).
> 
> Ok - that's fine.  But note that httpd and jakarta are different (for what 
I
> know of httpd...).  I don't think Jakarta is all bad, and think that
> changes should be made to improve things.

+1

Having a consistent naming and structure as a starting point can't hurt.

>> It is also a good opportunity to improve few things:
>> 
>> - find who's tracking what component.
> 
> That would be good, but don't we know that from the status files ?

We know who's commiting - or did. And we have no mechanism to 
track sandbox - since most of them have 1-2 committers only.


>> - better tracking of who's active ( if we use 'active committer' def. )
> 
> How?  Once on the PMC, your are on, right?

My 'active committer' would mean that once you stop beeing active 
you are supposed to remove yourself from the list.
( and add yourself back when you return )


>> - a way to better pass the message and get people involved in the
>> monitoring activity
> 
> I don't see how a new title and mail list will change anything.  If we
> have
> to start changing the values of the community, we can do it directly.  If
> there are things we have to change, it's our responsibility as committers
> to do it.

different issues - the title is to make things more uniform with 
httpd/apr/etc and get closer to the legal protection.

The other issue is increasing awareness and having more active involvement
in the management of the project.

I'm not sugesting automatic committer/SPMC conversion. If some committer
wants to participate in the SPMC ( which is more of a title, you're right )
he'll have to volunteer at least for monitoring few components ( and sandbox 
components ).


> Ok - why not just make the file then?  I am sure that every active
> committer will step up to do this.
> 
> The thing that we do get out of this is a formal accountability to the ASF
> -
> but it strikes me as strange that we take all (or most) committers,  
define
> them to be the PMC, and all of a sudden accountability happens.  Do you
> see what I mean?

Well, I think we _are_ accountable already - at least for jakarta-commons 
proper, and many committers are acting as a PMC. Do you see what I mean ?

Again - I'm not sugesting taking all committers and just define them as 
SPMC. 
I'm sugesting creating a SPMC that will be open to all active committers
who want the title or are willing to help with this task ( monitoring ). 
Most of us are indeed tracking few components.


> Seems like we have a problem if our committers aren't responsible and
> willing to be held accountable.

I think we all agree this is not the case. Except that outside j-c
there is a perception that if you are not in a PMC or you don't have
some PMC to read each code commit - you're not accountable ( or protected 
legally or whatever ).


>> We can create some rules so that any committer can join the SPMC by
>> volunteering for some components and participating in some sort
>> of load distribution, and use this as a way to pass information.
> 
> What information?  Why not the usual list?  We wouldn't want this to be
> closed, would we?

I meant pass the information on the load distribution. When you decide 
you want to be a SPMC member, you volunteer for some tasks - and this
way we can synchronize and spread the load. 


>> Regarding 'separating from jakarta' - I do think that j-c is in a way
>> the 'core' of jakarta ( I don't know any other jakarta sub-project
>> to bring so many people together ).
>> 
> 
> Bingo. +1.  Exactly.  That was the intent, and that is what we achieved. 
> To break it up or move it  in the name of 'community' means someone is
> missing the point (not you, Costin)

The problem is that quite a few people already expressed the idea of 
moving pieces of the code ( and this will affect the community ).


>> But I wouldn't mind opening it up to xml.apache.org people - we already
>> have few great committers from xml working on j-c, and I think it would
>> be great to expand this.
> 
> Fine - our hurdles for becoming a committer aren't very high.  Do we have
> a
> problem where XML people aren't being allowed to contribute?  I mean, if
> someone showed up with patches or new code, I think there is enough mixing
> of the communities that the person would be granted committer status, just
> like we automatically let in committers from other Jakarta projects,
> right?

I know. We know. It would be nice for them to know that too :-)
And right now I don't think this is well-known in xml.apache.org.



>> AFAIK HTTPD PMC includes every committer.
> 
> I don't think so - I asked.  It doesn't include every committer, and those
> that are a part of it are elected by the existing PMC based on 'merit'.
> 
> I haven't had time to ask for clarification.

Probably we asked different persons. 

My understanding is that the diff is insignifiant.

As you see, I don't mind a bigger diff - as long as some objective means
are used. I think 'active and interested and willing to do the chores' is
a good criteria.


> Well - don't the active committers of each jakarta subproject *already* do
> the code reviews and monitoring and decisions?  What else are they here
> for?

I suppose that's not a question for me :-)
I think most jakarta people know the answer as well.



> I somewhat resent the idea that Jakarta PMC is a popularity contest.  (And
> not because I'm on it...)


> Every person that I have voted for on the PMC is, in my opinion, someone 
who
> understands Jakarta,  has a clear view supportive of Apache goals, has
> contributed to one or more subprojects in a significant way, and is active
> in the community.  What other definition of merit would one want?

I would add: and has gained the trust of a significant number of committers.

I'm pretty sure you got a lot of votes from people who use JSPs ( or
at least some ).


>> The problem is that we call things differently, and this de-facto
>> 'delegation' that happened since the beginning of jakarta is now
>> considered a problem.
> 
> I understand that there are legal issues that must be addressed, but I
> can't believe that such a lively community, with both diversity and
> strength in the ASF licensed code bases, could have happened as a series
> of one-offs attaching to the ASF as 'top level projects'.
> 
> If there are problems, lets solve them.  Lets not destroy Jakarta in doing
> so.

+1

>> And I think trust has nothing to do with what you work on or what
>> technical opinions you have ( including 'hot' issues like JSP/Velocity).
>> I think I had technical disagreements with almost everyone in jakarta.
> 
> And I don't think that JSP vs Velocity is a hot issue anymore.  The answer
> is clear :-)

Well - what's very clear is that we can work on common things even if
we have different taste for the templating language ( and many other
things ). 


Costin



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Re: moving to a top-level project (was: [Ant nudge STATUS] Betterthan we thought...)

["Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>]

On 10/29/02 4:04 PM, "Costin Manolache" <cm...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 2002-10-29 at 12:13, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> 
>> Great.  Perfect description.  Not disputing the general sentiment (I still
>> think it's moving deck chairs around if you move every committer into the
>> PMC).
> 
> I think it's more about a consistent naming and organization with the
> rest of apache ( and the httpd project where all things started ).

Ok - that's fine.  But note that httpd and jakarta are different (for what I
know of httpd...).  I don't think Jakarta is all bad, and think that changes
should be made to improve things.

> 
> It is also a good opportunity to improve few things:
> 
> - find who's tracking what component.

That would be good, but don't we know that from the status files ?

> - better tracking of who's active ( if we use 'active committer' def. )

How?  Once on the PMC, your are on, right?

> - a way to better pass the message and get people involved in the
> monitoring activity

I don't see how a new title and mail list will change anything.  If we have
to start changing the values of the community, we can do it directly.  If
there are things we have to change, it's our responsibility as committers to
do it.  
 
> My view was a global 'SPMC' file listing all the people _and_ the
> components he's volunteering to monitor ( even if he's not actively
> working on it ). STATUS tracks who's working on what.

Ok - why not just make the file then?  I am sure that every active committer
will step up to do this.

The thing that we do get out of this is a formal accountability to the ASF -
but it strikes me as strange that we take all (or most) committers,  define
them to be the PMC, and all of a sudden accountability happens.  Do you see
what I mean? 
 
Seems like we have a problem if our committers aren't responsible and
willing to be held accountable.

> We can create some rules so that any committer can join the SPMC by
> volunteering for some components and participating in some sort
> of load distribution, and use this as a way to pass information.

What information?  Why not the usual list?  We wouldn't want this to be
closed, would we?

> 
>>> The open questions are:
>>> - can jakarta PMC recognize jakarta-commons SPMC and delegate oversight
>>> officially ?
>> 
>> Good question, and I don¹t see why we couldn't ask, although....
>> 
>>> - if that's not possible, can jakarta-commons form a PMC and ask the
>>> ASF board to recognize it ? ( it seems implied that tomcat or ant could
>>> do that easily ). If so, can it remain part of jakarta ( and eventually
>>> extend/merge with xml.apache.org )
>> 
>> Yes, it could.  I would really be against J-C separating from jakarta in any
>> way.  Renaming all committers to be members of the PMC again seems like
>> window dressing until you educate those committers about their
>> responsibilities - where I then wonder if there is education to be done, why
>> don't we just do it?
> 
> I'm not very sure what education - I suspect we all know the rules.
> 
> We do need probably a bit more formal organization - and some
> explicit procedures/rules/plans.
> 
> Regarding 'separating from jakarta' - I do think that j-c is in a way
> the 'core' of jakarta ( I don't know any other jakarta sub-project
> to bring so many people together ).
> 

Bingo. +1.  Exactly.  That was the intent, and that is what we achieved.  To
break it up or move it  in the name of 'community' means someone is missing
the point (not you, Costin)

> But I wouldn't mind opening it up to xml.apache.org people - we already
> have few great committers from xml working on j-c, and I think it would
> be great to expand this.

Fine - our hurdles for becoming a committer aren't very high.  Do we have a
problem where XML people aren't being allowed to contribute?  I mean, if
someone showed up with patches or new code, I think there is enough mixing
of the communities that the person would be granted committer status, just
like we automatically let in committers from other Jakarta projects, right?
 
> 
> 
>>> - technical details: who is part of the SPMC ( my initial proposal was
>>> 'all active committers who like to be', maybe with a 1-2 month delay for
>>> very new committers ). I'm sure other opinions will be raised on this.
>> 
>> This is why I think it's window dressing - why would you *not* allow a
>> committer to be participant in the PMC?  Would that reason, whatever it is,
>> be a reason for them not to be a committer?  Don't we believe that when we
>> make someone a committer, its because they have shown they share the vision
>> and are willing to take responsibilty?  It's more than just the ability to
>> 'cvs commit'.
> 
> I think a 1-2 month delay is just reasonable - to let him get used with
> the environment and the rules. But I'm ok with dropping it ( again, this
> is my understanding of httpd procedures ).
> 
> Using 'active' is a way to make sure we have things covered up and
> to track the people who are involved. If some European committer
> takes a 3-month vacation he should remove himself from the 'PMC' list
> and add back when he returns. This way we'll know that whatever
> he was monitoring/working on is not covered and we can redistribute it.
> 

Yes, those damn Europeans with their 3 month vacations :)

LOL

> I see little value in a very large PMC where 1/2 of people don't
> track the mailing list.
> 
> I'm also very strongly against any 'elective' system - as you said,
> if someone is voted as committer he should also be trusted ( after
> some adjustment and READMEs ) as PMC.
> 
> 
> 
>> Just curious - I am asking the same questions about HTTPD and APD, as it
>> sounds like it's pretty much the same thing.  They assure me it's not, for
>> example the HTTPD PMC election is based on 'merit', where the Jakarta  PMC
>> is a 'popularity contest', but no one has yet to define the difference.
> 
> AFAIK HTTPD PMC includes every committer.

I don't think so - I asked.  It doesn't include every committer, and those
that are a part of it are elected by the existing PMC based on 'merit'.

I haven't had time to ask for clarification.

> 
> I think it's more of a naming issue - the jakarta PMC is mirroring the
> board ( i.e. small set of people, elected ). I don't think
> it's 'popularity', but more 'trust' that is the target of the election.
> Each jakarta subproject behave just like httpd or apr - with all
> active committers doing all the code reviews and monitoring and
> decisions.

Well - don't the active committers of each jakarta subproject *already* do
the code reviews and monitoring and decisions?  What else are they here for?

I somewhat resent the idea that Jakarta PMC is a popularity contest.  (And
not because I'm on it...)

Every person that I have voted for on the PMC is, in my opinion, someone who
understands Jakarta,  has a clear view supportive of Apache goals, has
contributed to one or more subprojects in a significant way, and is active
in the community.  What other definition of merit would one want?

> 
> The problem is that we call things differently, and this de-facto
> 'delegation' that happened since the beginning of jakarta is now
> considered a problem.

I understand that there are legal issues that must be addressed, but I can't
believe that such a lively community, with both diversity and strength in
the ASF licensed code bases, could have happened as a series of one-offs
attaching to the ASF as 'top level projects'.

If there are problems, lets solve them.  Lets not destroy Jakarta in doing
so.
 
> 
> 
>> To me, merit would be objective, popularity would be subjective.  However,
>> there are no objective measures of merit here, only opinions of those
>> voting. (HTTPD has the curious feature that only the existing PMC can vote
>> in new members, not the rest of the community... I have yet to ask about
>> that....)  My work in Velocity is really valuable to some people (like
>> myself :), but someone else, say someone working on Jasper, might not think
>> so and believe it is anti-Apache, for example, as one of it's benefits is to
>> 'undermine' a standard, JSP, through the offering of an alternative.
> 
> Again - IMHO it's trust that is measured by the election.

That's probably a good way to describe it.
 
> And I think trust has nothing to do with what you work on or what
> technical opinions you have ( including 'hot' issues like JSP/Velocity).
> I think I had technical disagreements with almost everyone in jakarta.

And I don't think that JSP vs Velocity is a hot issue anymore.  The answer
is clear 

;) 

geir
-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. 
geirm@adeptra.com                                    +1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc.                                         +1-203-247-1713 (m)



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