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Posted to users@kafka.apache.org by Yan Wang <YW...@UP.COM> on 2015/10/15 22:28:38 UTC

GC is running forever


Hello Kafka Experts.

We have experienced a long running GC problem for a while. GC will
eventually eat up all the cpu cycles on the physical box. Have chatted with
Gwen regarding this issue during recent ended Hadoop conference at NYC, per
her recommendation we switched to G1, but we still see the same problem
happening. We have tried on two different version of jdk (java7u51 and
java7u71) and two different GC (CMS and G1).

The fun part for this problem is that once we run jstack to do thread dump
it will immediately terminate the long running GC and everything is back to
normal.


I am attaching my jvm parameters and gc logs as reference and hope some
experts can shed light on this problem

-Xmx4G -Xms4G -server
-XX:+UseG1GC -XX:MaxGCPauseMillis=20 -XX:InitiatingHeapOccupancyPercent=35
-XX:+DisableExplicitGC
-Djava.awt.headless=true
-Xloggc:/logs/kaf/kafka-broker-solr-hbase/kafkaServer-gc.log -verbose:gc
-XX:+PrintGCDetails -XX:+PrintGCDateStamps -XX:+PrintGCTimeStamps


GC log
2015-10-15T14:35:29.910-0500: 167428.343: [GC pause (young), 0.0087380
secs]
   [Parallel Time: 5.8 ms, GC Workers: 18]
      [GC Worker Start (ms): Min: 167428342.9, Avg: 167428343.1, Max:
167428343.3, Diff: 0.4]
      [Ext Root Scanning (ms): Min: 0.9, Avg: 1.3, Max: 1.7, Diff: 0.8,
Sum: 23.2]
      [Update RS (ms): Min: 2.3, Avg: 2.6, Max: 2.8, Diff: 0.5, Sum: 46.2]
         [Processed Buffers: Min: 4, Avg: 5.9, Max: 10, Diff: 6, Sum: 107]
      [Scan RS (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.1, Max: 0.2, Diff: 0.1, Sum: 1.9]
      [Object Copy (ms): Min: 1.4, Avg: 1.4, Max: 1.6, Diff: 0.2, Sum:
25.9]
      [Termination (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.0, Diff: 0.0, Sum: 0.1]
      [GC Worker Other (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.1, Diff: 0.1, Sum:
0.8]
      [GC Worker Total (ms): Min: 5.2, Avg: 5.5, Max: 5.7, Diff: 0.4, Sum:
98.2]
      [GC Worker End (ms): Min: 167428348.6, Avg: 167428348.6, Max:
167428348.7, Diff: 0.1]
   [Code Root Fixup: 0.0 ms]
   [Clear CT: 0.8 ms]
   [Other: 2.2 ms]
      [Choose CSet: 0.0 ms]
      [Ref Proc: 0.8 ms]
      [Ref Enq: 0.0 ms]
      [Free CSet: 1.3 ms]
   [Eden: 788.0M(788.0M)->0.0B(952.0M) Survivors: 14.0M->6144.0K Heap:
1199.6M(4096.0M)->403.9M(4096.0M)]
 [Times: user=0.11 sys=0.00, real=0.01 secs]
2015-10-15T14:35:36.522-0500: 167434.955: [GC pause (young), 1227.2679990
secs]
   [Parallel Time: 1227265.2 ms, GC Workers: 18]
      [GC Worker Start (ms): Min: 167434954.8, Avg: 167434955.0, Max:
167434955.2, Diff: 0.4]
      [Ext Root Scanning (ms): Min: 1.1, Avg: 68182.6, Max: 1227264.8,
Diff: 1227263.6, Sum: 1227287.6]
      [Update RS (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 1.9, Max: 2.2, Diff: 2.2, Sum: 34.1]
         [Processed Buffers: Min: 0, Avg: 4.8, Max: 11, Diff: 11, Sum: 87]
      [Scan RS (ms): Min: 0.1, Avg: 0.1, Max: 0.2, Diff: 0.1, Sum: 2.4]
      [Object Copy (ms): Min: 0.1, Avg: 1.4, Max: 1.6, Diff: 1.5, Sum:
25.2]
      [Termination (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 1159078.8, Max: 1227259.9, Diff:
1227259.9, Sum: 20863418.3]
      [GC Worker Other (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.0, Diff: 0.0, Sum:
0.3]
      [GC Worker Total (ms): Min: 1227264.6, Avg: 1227264.9, Max:
1227265.1, Diff: 0.4, Sum: 22090767.9]
      [GC Worker End (ms): Min: 168662219.8, Avg: 168662219.9, Max:
168662219.9, Diff: 0.1]
   [Code Root Fixup: 0.0 ms]
   [Clear CT: 0.6 ms]
   [Other: 2.2 ms]
      [Choose CSet: 0.0 ms]
      [Ref Proc: 0.6 ms]
      [Ref Enq: 0.0 ms]
      [Free CSet: 1.5 ms]
   [Eden: 952.0M(952.0M)->0.0B(198.0M) Survivors: 6144.0K->6144.0K Heap:
1366.0M(4096.0M)->414.0M(4096.0M)]
 [Times: user=20341.80 sys=0.00, real=1227.08 secs]
2015-10-15T14:56:03.852-0500: 168662.285: [GC pause (young), 0.0050930
secs]
   [Parallel Time: 3.3 ms, GC Workers: 18]
      [GC Worker Start (ms): Min: 168662284.6, Avg: 168662284.8, Max:
168662285.0, Diff: 0.4]
      [Ext Root Scanning (ms): Min: 1.0, Avg: 1.4, Max: 1.8, Diff: 0.8,
Sum: 24.3]
      [Update RS (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.1, Max: 0.4, Diff: 0.4, Sum: 2.4]
         [Processed Buffers: Min: 0, Avg: 2.4, Max: 8, Diff: 8, Sum: 44]
      [Scan RS (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.0, Diff: 0.0, Sum: 0.1]
      [Object Copy (ms): Min: 1.0, Avg: 1.2, Max: 1.3, Diff: 0.3, Sum:
22.5]
      [Termination (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.0, Diff: 0.0, Sum: 0.1]
      [GC Worker Other (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.0, Diff: 0.0, Sum:
0.3]
      [GC Worker Total (ms): Min: 2.6, Avg: 2.8, Max: 3.0, Diff: 0.4, Sum:
49.7]
      [GC Worker End (ms): Min: 168662287.6, Avg: 168662287.6, Max:
168662287.6, Diff: 0.0]
   [Code Root Fixup: 0.0 ms]
   [Clear CT: 0.8 ms]
   [Other: 1.1 ms]
      [Choose CSet: 0.0 ms]
      [Ref Proc: 0.8 ms]
      [Ref Enq: 0.0 ms]
      [Free CSet: 0.1 ms]
   [Eden: 30.0M(198.0M)->0.0B(198.0M) Survivors: 6144.0K->6144.0K Heap:
442.6M(4096.0M)->413.6M(4096.0M)]
 [Times: user=0.05 sys=0.00, real=0.01 secs]



Yan
**

This email and any attachments may contain information that is confidential and/or privileged for the sole use of the intended recipient.  Any use, review, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance by others, and any forwarding of this email or its contents, without the express permission of the sender is strictly prohibited by law.  If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately, delete the e-mail and destroy all copies.
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Re: GC is running forever

Posted by Yan Wang <YW...@UP.COM>.

Thanks Paul

Yan

> On Oct 15, 2015, at 6:28 PM, Paul Mackles <pm...@adobe.com> wrote:
>
> This email originated from outside of the company.  Please use discretion
if opening attachments or clicking on links.
>
> We had an issue that sounds somewhat similar. It impacted many
long-running java apps but Kafka more than most. In our case, it actually
turned out to be a kernel bug. Here is a reference with more details:
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mechanical-sympathy/QbmpZxp6C64
>
> Thanks,
> Paul
> ________________________________________
> From: Yan Wang <YW...@UP.COM>
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:28 PM
> To: users@kafka.apache.org
> Subject: GC is running forever
>
> Hello Kafka Experts.
>
> We have experienced a long running GC problem for a while. GC will
> eventually eat up all the cpu cycles on the physical box. Have chatted
with
> Gwen regarding this issue during recent ended Hadoop conference at NYC,
per
> her recommendation we switched to G1, but we still see the same problem
> happening. We have tried on two different version of jdk (java7u51 and
> java7u71) and two different GC (CMS and G1).
>
> The fun part for this problem is that once we run jstack to do thread
dump
> it will immediately terminate the long running GC and everything is back
to
> normal.
>
>
> I am attaching my jvm parameters and gc logs as reference and hope some
> experts can shed light on this problem
>
> -Xmx4G -Xms4G -server
> -XX:+UseG1GC -XX:MaxGCPauseMillis=20
-XX:InitiatingHeapOccupancyPercent=35
> -XX:+DisableExplicitGC
> -Djava.awt.headless=true
> -Xloggc:/logs/kaf/kafka-broker-solr-hbase/kafkaServer-gc.log -verbose:gc
> -XX:+PrintGCDetails -XX:+PrintGCDateStamps -XX:+PrintGCTimeStamps
>
>
> GC log
> 2015-10-15T14:35:29.910-0500: 167428.343: [GC pause (young), 0.0087380
> secs]
>   [Parallel Time: 5.8 ms, GC Workers: 18]
>      [GC Worker Start (ms): Min: 167428342.9, Avg: 167428343.1, Max:
> 167428343.3, Diff: 0.4]
>      [Ext Root Scanning (ms): Min: 0.9, Avg: 1.3, Max: 1.7, Diff: 0.8,
> Sum: 23.2]
>      [Update RS (ms): Min: 2.3, Avg: 2.6, Max: 2.8, Diff: 0.5, Sum: 46.2]
>         [Processed Buffers: Min: 4, Avg: 5.9, Max: 10, Diff: 6, Sum: 107]
>      [Scan RS (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.1, Max: 0.2, Diff: 0.1, Sum: 1.9]
>      [Object Copy (ms): Min: 1.4, Avg: 1.4, Max: 1.6, Diff: 0.2, Sum:
> 25.9]
>      [Termination (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.0, Diff: 0.0, Sum:
0.1]
>      [GC Worker Other (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.1, Diff: 0.1, Sum:
> 0.8]
>      [GC Worker Total (ms): Min: 5.2, Avg: 5.5, Max: 5.7, Diff: 0.4, Sum:
> 98.2]
>      [GC Worker End (ms): Min: 167428348.6, Avg: 167428348.6, Max:
> 167428348.7, Diff: 0.1]
>   [Code Root Fixup: 0.0 ms]
>   [Clear CT: 0.8 ms]
>   [Other: 2.2 ms]
>      [Choose CSet: 0.0 ms]
>      [Ref Proc: 0.8 ms]
>      [Ref Enq: 0.0 ms]
>      [Free CSet: 1.3 ms]
>   [Eden: 788.0M(788.0M)->0.0B(952.0M) Survivors: 14.0M->6144.0K Heap:
> 1199.6M(4096.0M)->403.9M(4096.0M)]
> [Times: user=0.11 sys=0.00, real=0.01 secs]
> 2015-10-15T14:35:36.522-0500: 167434.955: [GC pause (young), 1227.2679990
> secs]
>   [Parallel Time: 1227265.2 ms, GC Workers: 18]
>      [GC Worker Start (ms): Min: 167434954.8, Avg: 167434955.0, Max:
> 167434955.2, Diff: 0.4]
>      [Ext Root Scanning (ms): Min: 1.1, Avg: 68182.6, Max: 1227264.8,
> Diff: 1227263.6, Sum: 1227287.6]
>      [Update RS (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 1.9, Max: 2.2, Diff: 2.2, Sum: 34.1]
>         [Processed Buffers: Min: 0, Avg: 4.8, Max: 11, Diff: 11, Sum: 87]
>      [Scan RS (ms): Min: 0.1, Avg: 0.1, Max: 0.2, Diff: 0.1, Sum: 2.4]
>      [Object Copy (ms): Min: 0.1, Avg: 1.4, Max: 1.6, Diff: 1.5, Sum:
> 25.2]
>      [Termination (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 1159078.8, Max: 1227259.9, Diff:
> 1227259.9, Sum: 20863418.3]
>      [GC Worker Other (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.0, Diff: 0.0, Sum:
> 0.3]
>      [GC Worker Total (ms): Min: 1227264.6, Avg: 1227264.9, Max:
> 1227265.1, Diff: 0.4, Sum: 22090767.9]
>      [GC Worker End (ms): Min: 168662219.8, Avg: 168662219.9, Max:
> 168662219.9, Diff: 0.1]
>   [Code Root Fixup: 0.0 ms]
>   [Clear CT: 0.6 ms]
>   [Other: 2.2 ms]
>      [Choose CSet: 0.0 ms]
>      [Ref Proc: 0.6 ms]
>      [Ref Enq: 0.0 ms]
>      [Free CSet: 1.5 ms]
>   [Eden: 952.0M(952.0M)->0.0B(198.0M) Survivors: 6144.0K->6144.0K Heap:
> 1366.0M(4096.0M)->414.0M(4096.0M)]
> [Times: user=20341.80 sys=0.00, real=1227.08 secs]
> 2015-10-15T14:56:03.852-0500: 168662.285: [GC pause (young), 0.0050930
> secs]
>   [Parallel Time: 3.3 ms, GC Workers: 18]
>      [GC Worker Start (ms): Min: 168662284.6, Avg: 168662284.8, Max:
> 168662285.0, Diff: 0.4]
>      [Ext Root Scanning (ms): Min: 1.0, Avg: 1.4, Max: 1.8, Diff: 0.8,
> Sum: 24.3]
>      [Update RS (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.1, Max: 0.4, Diff: 0.4, Sum: 2.4]
>         [Processed Buffers: Min: 0, Avg: 2.4, Max: 8, Diff: 8, Sum: 44]
>      [Scan RS (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.0, Diff: 0.0, Sum: 0.1]
>      [Object Copy (ms): Min: 1.0, Avg: 1.2, Max: 1.3, Diff: 0.3, Sum:
> 22.5]
>      [Termination (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.0, Diff: 0.0, Sum:
0.1]
>      [GC Worker Other (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.0, Diff: 0.0, Sum:
> 0.3]
>      [GC Worker Total (ms): Min: 2.6, Avg: 2.8, Max: 3.0, Diff: 0.4, Sum:
> 49.7]
>      [GC Worker End (ms): Min: 168662287.6, Avg: 168662287.6, Max:
> 168662287.6, Diff: 0.0]
>   [Code Root Fixup: 0.0 ms]
>   [Clear CT: 0.8 ms]
>   [Other: 1.1 ms]
>      [Choose CSet: 0.0 ms]
>      [Ref Proc: 0.8 ms]
>      [Ref Enq: 0.0 ms]
>      [Free CSet: 0.1 ms]
>   [Eden: 30.0M(198.0M)->0.0B(198.0M) Survivors: 6144.0K->6144.0K Heap:
> 442.6M(4096.0M)->413.6M(4096.0M)]
> [Times: user=0.05 sys=0.00, real=0.01 secs]
>
>
>
> Yan
> **
>
> This email and any attachments may contain information that is
confidential and/or privileged for the sole use of the intended recipient.
Any use, review, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance by others,
and any forwarding of this email or its contents, without the express
permission of the sender is strictly prohibited by law.  If you are not the
intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately, delete the
e-mail and destroy all copies.
> **
**

This email and any attachments may contain information that is confidential and/or privileged for the sole use of the intended recipient.  Any use, review, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance by others, and any forwarding of this email or its contents, without the express permission of the sender is strictly prohibited by law.  If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately, delete the e-mail and destroy all copies.
**

Re: GC is running forever

Posted by Paul Mackles <pm...@adobe.com>.
We had an issue that sounds somewhat similar. It impacted many long-running java apps but Kafka more than most. In our case, it actually turned out to be a kernel bug. Here is a reference with more details:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mechanical-sympathy/QbmpZxp6C64

Thanks,
Paul
________________________________________
From: Yan Wang <YW...@UP.COM>
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:28 PM
To: users@kafka.apache.org
Subject: GC is running forever

Hello Kafka Experts.

We have experienced a long running GC problem for a while. GC will
eventually eat up all the cpu cycles on the physical box. Have chatted with
Gwen regarding this issue during recent ended Hadoop conference at NYC, per
her recommendation we switched to G1, but we still see the same problem
happening. We have tried on two different version of jdk (java7u51 and
java7u71) and two different GC (CMS and G1).

The fun part for this problem is that once we run jstack to do thread dump
it will immediately terminate the long running GC and everything is back to
normal.


I am attaching my jvm parameters and gc logs as reference and hope some
experts can shed light on this problem

-Xmx4G -Xms4G -server
-XX:+UseG1GC -XX:MaxGCPauseMillis=20 -XX:InitiatingHeapOccupancyPercent=35
-XX:+DisableExplicitGC
-Djava.awt.headless=true
-Xloggc:/logs/kaf/kafka-broker-solr-hbase/kafkaServer-gc.log -verbose:gc
-XX:+PrintGCDetails -XX:+PrintGCDateStamps -XX:+PrintGCTimeStamps


GC log
2015-10-15T14:35:29.910-0500: 167428.343: [GC pause (young), 0.0087380
secs]
   [Parallel Time: 5.8 ms, GC Workers: 18]
      [GC Worker Start (ms): Min: 167428342.9, Avg: 167428343.1, Max:
167428343.3, Diff: 0.4]
      [Ext Root Scanning (ms): Min: 0.9, Avg: 1.3, Max: 1.7, Diff: 0.8,
Sum: 23.2]
      [Update RS (ms): Min: 2.3, Avg: 2.6, Max: 2.8, Diff: 0.5, Sum: 46.2]
         [Processed Buffers: Min: 4, Avg: 5.9, Max: 10, Diff: 6, Sum: 107]
      [Scan RS (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.1, Max: 0.2, Diff: 0.1, Sum: 1.9]
      [Object Copy (ms): Min: 1.4, Avg: 1.4, Max: 1.6, Diff: 0.2, Sum:
25.9]
      [Termination (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.0, Diff: 0.0, Sum: 0.1]
      [GC Worker Other (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.1, Diff: 0.1, Sum:
0.8]
      [GC Worker Total (ms): Min: 5.2, Avg: 5.5, Max: 5.7, Diff: 0.4, Sum:
98.2]
      [GC Worker End (ms): Min: 167428348.6, Avg: 167428348.6, Max:
167428348.7, Diff: 0.1]
   [Code Root Fixup: 0.0 ms]
   [Clear CT: 0.8 ms]
   [Other: 2.2 ms]
      [Choose CSet: 0.0 ms]
      [Ref Proc: 0.8 ms]
      [Ref Enq: 0.0 ms]
      [Free CSet: 1.3 ms]
   [Eden: 788.0M(788.0M)->0.0B(952.0M) Survivors: 14.0M->6144.0K Heap:
1199.6M(4096.0M)->403.9M(4096.0M)]
 [Times: user=0.11 sys=0.00, real=0.01 secs]
2015-10-15T14:35:36.522-0500: 167434.955: [GC pause (young), 1227.2679990
secs]
   [Parallel Time: 1227265.2 ms, GC Workers: 18]
      [GC Worker Start (ms): Min: 167434954.8, Avg: 167434955.0, Max:
167434955.2, Diff: 0.4]
      [Ext Root Scanning (ms): Min: 1.1, Avg: 68182.6, Max: 1227264.8,
Diff: 1227263.6, Sum: 1227287.6]
      [Update RS (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 1.9, Max: 2.2, Diff: 2.2, Sum: 34.1]
         [Processed Buffers: Min: 0, Avg: 4.8, Max: 11, Diff: 11, Sum: 87]
      [Scan RS (ms): Min: 0.1, Avg: 0.1, Max: 0.2, Diff: 0.1, Sum: 2.4]
      [Object Copy (ms): Min: 0.1, Avg: 1.4, Max: 1.6, Diff: 1.5, Sum:
25.2]
      [Termination (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 1159078.8, Max: 1227259.9, Diff:
1227259.9, Sum: 20863418.3]
      [GC Worker Other (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.0, Diff: 0.0, Sum:
0.3]
      [GC Worker Total (ms): Min: 1227264.6, Avg: 1227264.9, Max:
1227265.1, Diff: 0.4, Sum: 22090767.9]
      [GC Worker End (ms): Min: 168662219.8, Avg: 168662219.9, Max:
168662219.9, Diff: 0.1]
   [Code Root Fixup: 0.0 ms]
   [Clear CT: 0.6 ms]
   [Other: 2.2 ms]
      [Choose CSet: 0.0 ms]
      [Ref Proc: 0.6 ms]
      [Ref Enq: 0.0 ms]
      [Free CSet: 1.5 ms]
   [Eden: 952.0M(952.0M)->0.0B(198.0M) Survivors: 6144.0K->6144.0K Heap:
1366.0M(4096.0M)->414.0M(4096.0M)]
 [Times: user=20341.80 sys=0.00, real=1227.08 secs]
2015-10-15T14:56:03.852-0500: 168662.285: [GC pause (young), 0.0050930
secs]
   [Parallel Time: 3.3 ms, GC Workers: 18]
      [GC Worker Start (ms): Min: 168662284.6, Avg: 168662284.8, Max:
168662285.0, Diff: 0.4]
      [Ext Root Scanning (ms): Min: 1.0, Avg: 1.4, Max: 1.8, Diff: 0.8,
Sum: 24.3]
      [Update RS (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.1, Max: 0.4, Diff: 0.4, Sum: 2.4]
         [Processed Buffers: Min: 0, Avg: 2.4, Max: 8, Diff: 8, Sum: 44]
      [Scan RS (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.0, Diff: 0.0, Sum: 0.1]
      [Object Copy (ms): Min: 1.0, Avg: 1.2, Max: 1.3, Diff: 0.3, Sum:
22.5]
      [Termination (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.0, Diff: 0.0, Sum: 0.1]
      [GC Worker Other (ms): Min: 0.0, Avg: 0.0, Max: 0.0, Diff: 0.0, Sum:
0.3]
      [GC Worker Total (ms): Min: 2.6, Avg: 2.8, Max: 3.0, Diff: 0.4, Sum:
49.7]
      [GC Worker End (ms): Min: 168662287.6, Avg: 168662287.6, Max:
168662287.6, Diff: 0.0]
   [Code Root Fixup: 0.0 ms]
   [Clear CT: 0.8 ms]
   [Other: 1.1 ms]
      [Choose CSet: 0.0 ms]
      [Ref Proc: 0.8 ms]
      [Ref Enq: 0.0 ms]
      [Free CSet: 0.1 ms]
   [Eden: 30.0M(198.0M)->0.0B(198.0M) Survivors: 6144.0K->6144.0K Heap:
442.6M(4096.0M)->413.6M(4096.0M)]
 [Times: user=0.05 sys=0.00, real=0.01 secs]



Yan
**

This email and any attachments may contain information that is confidential and/or privileged for the sole use of the intended recipient.  Any use, review, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance by others, and any forwarding of this email or its contents, without the express permission of the sender is strictly prohibited by law.  If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately, delete the e-mail and destroy all copies.
**