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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> on 2003/10/13 10:23:23 UTC
Cocoon news feed?
What do people think about us having our own RSS feed, with news about
the Cocoon project?
It might help in
-Keeping in touch with other projects
-Keeping developers and users up-to-date with what's happening, at the
"overview" level
-Writing the Cocoon story for future generations. Partly joking, but
being able to read the last month of news if you've been away for a
while helps a lot.
Technically, this could either be:
-A weblog (at blogs.cocoondev.org?)
-A weblog.xml file in CVS, published at regular intervals. Monthly
archives should be available then.
I think the weblog could be easier to setup if blogs.cocoondev.org is
ok, and volunteer committers might get a password for publishing.
Thoughts?
-Bertrand
Re: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
...
> I don't think it is in the interest of Forrest (now) to
> become a blogging tool,
Of course not.
> since this feature would presumably depend on
> some live instance of Forrest (the webapp) running on some machine.
> Forrest's power lies in its CLI mode IMHO, and it is clearly the area of
> its applicability where the most energy and continued support has been
> put into. To me, a blogging service is clearly something different than
> generating an RSS feed.
Well I can give you a generated RSS feed.
If for some strange reason the decision is to use a complete blogging
tool just to publish news about Cocoon, there is Linotype.
Note that all that we publish on our website should be under the
oversight of the PMC, so we would need sort-of commit messages for the blog.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Steven Noels wrote:
> ...
>
>> I'm all +1 for rules, but they must make sense and not be used as
>> some political weapon.
>
>
> >:-(
>
> I'm out of this discussion. As I said, I'm on forrest-dev. Ciao.
I'm sorry you took my remark badly. A bad case of shooting the
messenger. I know you were making your suggestions out of good faith, as
I was doing. Also, I don't want to add new community resources to
non-ASF infrastructure, quite the contrary in fact.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
...
> I'm all +1 for rules, but they must make sense and not be used as
> some political weapon.
>:-(
I'm out of this discussion. As I said, I'm on forrest-dev. Ciao.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
On Tuesday, Oct 14, 2003, at 23:00 Europe/Rome, Steven Noels wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> Steven, I'm dead sick of your attitude toward this.
>
> Oh my. Apparently some things just cannot be said without people going
> ballistic out of unneeded suspicion. :-|
no, I'm not going ballistic, I'm just tired of hearing your rants about
infrastructure.
>> What the system to change? get an account on moof (I can give you
>> mine if you wnat), install cocoon and move the wiki there, then
>> modify the .htaccess file on cocoon.apache.org to proxy the pages
>> from there.
>> Is it sooooooo unreasonable?
>
> Not at all. I mailed Wilfredo. Let's see. I'll be back. ;-)
that's what I wanted to hear.
--
Stefano.
Re: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Steven, I'm dead sick of your attitude toward this.
Oh my. Apparently some things just cannot be said without people going
ballistic out of unneeded suspicion. :-|
> What the system to change? get an account on moof (I can give you mine
> if you wnat), install cocoon and move the wiki there, then modify the
> .htaccess file on cocoon.apache.org to proxy the pages from there.
>
> Is it sooooooo unreasonable?
Not at all. I mailed Wilfredo. Let's see. I'll be back. ;-)
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
On Tuesday, Oct 14, 2003, at 15:29 Europe/Rome, Steven Noels wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
>
>> Gee, i am not sure what you are talking about Steven.
>> Why do you think that a "blogging tool" is needed to do a simple
>> publishing of news snippets? And why do you think that it needs to
>> be a live webapp? We can still get prompt publishing using the
>> current Forrest CLI generation of Cocoon xdocs.
>
> Sure, but the success of the Wiki attests that people want instant
> gratification when writing stuff, and you and I, and a few others know
> that the current publication system, using CVS, doesn't provide this.
>
> I'm not saying we shouldn't use Forrest, I just hope that we don't
> kill honest good initiatives just because of infrastructural concerns.
> This infrastructural political correctness meme tires me at great
> length.
>
> I think PMC oversight as a concept is close to everybody's heart, but
> I don't understand why it is now being used as an argument pro or
> contra some technical solution. I'm all +1 for rules, but they must
> make sense and not be used as some political weapon.
Steven, I'm dead sick of your attitude toward this.
What the system to change? get an account on moof (I can give you mine
if you wnat), install cocoon and move the wiki there, then modify the
.htaccess file on cocoon.apache.org to proxy the pages from there.
Is it sooooooo unreasonable?
--
Stefano.
Re: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
> Gee, i am not sure what you are talking about Steven.
> Why do you think that a "blogging tool" is needed to do a simple
> publishing of news snippets? And why do you think that it needs to
> be a live webapp? We can still get prompt publishing using the
> current Forrest CLI generation of Cocoon xdocs.
Sure, but the success of the Wiki attests that people want instant
gratification when writing stuff, and you and I, and a few others know
that the current publication system, using CVS, doesn't provide this.
I'm not saying we shouldn't use Forrest, I just hope that we don't kill
honest good initiatives just because of infrastructural concerns. This
infrastructural political correctness meme tires me at great length.
I think PMC oversight as a concept is close to everybody's heart, but I
don't understand why it is now being used as an argument pro or contra
some technical solution. I'm all +1 for rules, but they must make sense
and not be used as some political weapon.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
RE: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@s-und-n.de>.
Just for the record, our news (in html) are here:
http://cocoon.apache.org/news/index.html
Carsten
Re: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@upaya.co.uk>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Le Mardi, 14 oct 2003, à 10:08 Europe/Zurich, David Crossley a écrit :
>
>> ...Gee, i am not sure what you are talking about Steven.
>> Why do you think that a "blogging tool" is needed to do a simple
>> publishing of news snippets? And why do you think that it needs to
>> be a live webapp? We can still get prompt publishing using the
>> current Forrest CLI generation of Cocoon xdocs....
>
> Let me outline my thoughts about what I think we need (are these
> concerns shared by the way?)
>
> -Publish more-or-less-weekly news about Cocoon, write something even
> if it's to say "not much happened", to keep in touch with other
> projects, users, etc.
Is commit to CVS okay?
> -A very easy way for committers to publish news. I know Forrest
> generation is easy, but how does the complete cycle look, from
> "writing two lines of news" to "published in the RSS feed"? Just to
> clarify, assuming only the news.xml file is modified.
Forrestbot run every night? Or triggered when you've made a change?
Surely that'd be simple enough? And with timestamp testing (either in
CocoonBean or Ant), you can only upload changed files.
Similarly, presumably we could set up two sites: one for news (single
page: news.html) and one for everything else. That way, if news is what
changes most frequently, it can be done in a few seconds.
>> ..http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/changes.html
>> Already has an RSS version...
>
> Cool - then we'd only need to enable this for news.xml as well, and
> make a prominent link to it on the front page.
>
> I volunteer to do the necessary changes if needed (but not right now,
> very busy - say beginning of November).
Surely this'd be a piece of cake for someone who understands configuring
ForrestBot, and wouldn't require any code changes at all.
Regards, Upayavira
Re: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Hi David, thanks for the clarifications.
>
> Le Mardi, 14 oct 2003, à 10:58 Europe/Zurich, David Crossley a écrit :
>
>> ...Actually step 2 should be automated by the 'forrestbot', as Upayavira
>> just said. I am not too sure that it is doing it at the moment. Last
>> time that i tweaked the current news.html i had to do it manually.
>
> Ok, so hopefully we can get forrestbot to run and make this easier.
In fact this is a need that is shared by other projects. The Apache
Incubator also needs Forrestbot to run, and we want to have it work on
Apache hardware.
Jeff has already tried to start this process, but somewhere the thing
stuck. If others are willing to give a hand, please say so, and we will
try to get a more concerted action.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi David, thanks for the clarifications.
Le Mardi, 14 oct 2003, à 10:58 Europe/Zurich, David Crossley a écrit :
> ...Actually step 2 should be automated by the 'forrestbot', as
> Upayavira
> just said. I am not too sure that it is doing it at the moment. Last
> time that i tweaked the current news.html i had to do it manually.
Ok, so hopefully we can get forrestbot to run and make this easier.
> ...You may get a pleasant surprise on your return.
hehe - I will stay tuned ;-)
-Bertrand
Re: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> David Crossley a écrit :
>
> > ...Gee, i am not sure what you are talking about Steven.
> > Why do you think that a "blogging tool" is needed to do a simple
> > publishing of news snippets? And why do you think that it needs to
> > be a live webapp? We can still get prompt publishing using the
> > current Forrest CLI generation of Cocoon xdocs....
>
> Let me outline my thoughts about what I think we need (are these
> concerns shared by the way?)
Yes.
> -Publish more-or-less-weekly news about Cocoon, write something even if
> it's to say "not much happened", to keep in touch with other projects,
> users, etc.
Good idea.
> -A very easy way for committers to publish news. I know Forrest
> generation is easy, but how does the complete cycle look, from "writing
> two lines of news" to "published in the RSS feed"? Just to clarify,
> assuming only the news.xml file is modified.
1) Any committer edits say news.xml, validates, and commits.
1b) Relevant patches can also be accepted from others.
2) To manually publish it, say once per week, one of the committers
(and not necessarily those that added the news snippets) runs
'forrest' and commits the result to the cocoon-site module. They then
follow the rest of the Wiki page CocoonWebsiteUpdate.
Actually step 2 should be automated by the 'forrestbot', as Upayavira
just said. I am not too sure that it is doing it at the moment. Last
time that i tweaked the current news.html i had to do it manually.
> > ..http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/changes.html
> > Already has an RSS version...
>
> Cool - then we'd only need to enable this for news.xml as well, and
> make a prominent link to it on the front page.
Yep.
> I volunteer to do the necessary changes if needed (but not right now,
> very busy - say beginning of November).
You may get a pleasant surprise on your return.
--David
> > ...That does not equate to Forrest becoming a "blogging tool" and as
> > far as i know it does not intend to be one (though Forrest does
> > still have many dreams)...
>
> We do not necessarily need a blogging tool, let's concentrate on the
> above concerns if they are shared.
>
> -Bertrand
Re: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Le Mardi, 14 oct 2003, à 10:08 Europe/Zurich, David Crossley a écrit :
> ...Gee, i am not sure what you are talking about Steven.
> Why do you think that a "blogging tool" is needed to do a simple
> publishing of news snippets? And why do you think that it needs to
> be a live webapp? We can still get prompt publishing using the
> current Forrest CLI generation of Cocoon xdocs....
Let me outline my thoughts about what I think we need (are these
concerns shared by the way?)
-Publish more-or-less-weekly news about Cocoon, write something even if
it's to say "not much happened", to keep in touch with other projects,
users, etc.
-A very easy way for committers to publish news. I know Forrest
generation is easy, but how does the complete cycle look, from "writing
two lines of news" to "published in the RSS feed"? Just to clarify,
assuming only the news.xml file is modified.
> ..http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/changes.html
> Already has an RSS version...
Cool - then we'd only need to enable this for news.xml as well, and
make a prominent link to it on the front page.
I volunteer to do the necessary changes if needed (but not right now,
very busy - say beginning of November).
> ...That does not equate to Forrest becoming a "blogging tool" and as
> far as i know it does not intend to be one (though Forrest does
> still have many dreams)...
We do not necessarily need a blogging tool, let's concentrate on the
above concerns if they are shared.
-Bertrand
--
Bertrand Delacretaz
independent consultant, Lausanne, Switzerland
http://cvs.apache.org/~bdelacretaz/
Re: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> <snip/>
>
> IIUC, Bertrand was suggesting at the content side of things, rather than
> the mechanism. I don't think it is in the interest of Forrest (now) to
> become a blogging tool, since this feature would presumably depend on
> some live instance of Forrest (the webapp) running on some machine.
> Forrest's power lies in its CLI mode IMHO, and it is clearly the area of
> its applicability where the most energy and continued support has been
> put into. To me, a blogging service is clearly something different than
> generating an RSS feed.
Gee, i am not sure what you are talking about Steven.
Why do you think that a "blogging tool" is needed to do a simple
publishing of news snippets? And why do you think that it needs to
be a live webapp? We can still get prompt publishing using the
current Forrest CLI generation of Cocoon xdocs.
http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/changes.html
Already has an RSS version.
It is easy to get Forrest to do a similar thing to publish a
specific page of news snippets.
That does not equate to Forrest becoming a "blogging tool" and as
far as i know it does not intend to be one (though Forrest does
still have many dreams).
--David
Re: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Cocoon is about the core, Forrest is an application of it. I find it a
> bit disturbing that it's about Cocoon==us, Forrest&&Lenya==them in these
> talks. Forrest was made exactly for this purpose, for making the Cocoon,
> Xmlapache, etc websites, I don't know why you keep on saying to forget
> it for now. If you want to start building the navigations, trails,
> tables of contents incrementally, why can't it be done in Forrest?
IIUC, Bertrand was suggesting at the content side of things, rather than
the mechanism. I don't think it is in the interest of Forrest (now) to
become a blogging tool, since this feature would presumably depend on
some live instance of Forrest (the webapp) running on some machine.
Forrest's power lies in its CLI mode IMHO, and it is clearly the area of
its applicability where the most energy and continued support has been
put into. To me, a blogging service is clearly something different than
generating an RSS feed.
Cheers,
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
RE: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@s-und-n.de>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>
> Le Lundi, 13 oct 2003, à 11:13 Europe/Zurich, Nicola Ken Barozzi a
> écrit :
>
> > Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> >
> >> What do people think about us having our own RSS feed, with news
> >> about the Cocoon project?
> >
> > The "changes" document in Forrest already has an RSS feed. I want to
> > add soon a news.xml file.
>
> Great.
>
We already have a news.xml in the cocoon site module, so I think the
rss feed should be generated from there.
We came to the conclusion that not every subproject (or version, branch
whatever) has it's own news, but one single place for news about cocoon.
Carsten
Re: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Le Lundi, 13 oct 2003, à 11:13 Europe/Zurich, Nicola Ken Barozzi a
écrit :
> Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>
>> What do people think about us having our own RSS feed, with news
>> about the Cocoon project?
>
> The "changes" document in Forrest already has an RSS feed. I want to
> add soon a news.xml file.
Great.
> ...Cocoon is about the core, Forrest is an application of it. I find
> it a bit disturbing that it's about Cocoon==us, Forrest&&Lenya==them
> in these talks. Forrest was made exactly for this purpose, for making
> the Cocoon, Xmlapache, etc websites, I don't know why you keep on
> saying to forget it for now. ..
I said this in the context of having an experiment/prototype on the new
docs system, where it would be good to get as many people as possible
involved with a minimal amount of effort.
Hence (and IIUC this was suggested by Stefano as well based on what
Jeff said) the idea of a "forget-all-constraints" prototype of the New
Docs System, hacked with XSLT, CSS, whatever. Not excluding Forrest or
Lenya, not talking about an actual implementation that will necessarily
stay, more of a playground or sandbox to quickly evolve concepts.
-Bertrand
RE: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Reinhard Poetz <re...@apache.org>.
From: Nicola Ken Barozzi
> Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>
> > What do people think about us having our own RSS feed, with
> news about
> > the Cocoon project?
>
> The "changes" document in Forrest already has an RSS feed. I
> want to add
> soon a news.xml file.
>
> In this way each project can have a full range of files for
> project info:
>
> - description.xml
> - news.xml
> - changes.xml
> - todo.xml
> - developers.xml
> etc...
>
> Cocoon is about the core, Forrest is an application of it. I
> find it a
> bit disturbing that it's about Cocoon==us,
> Forrest&&Lenya==them in these
> talks. Forrest was made exactly for this purpose, for making
> the Cocoon,
> Xmlapache, etc websites, I don't know why you keep on saying
> to forget
> it for now. If you want to start building the navigations, trails,
> tables of contents incrementally, why can't it be done in Forrest?
>
> Anyway, I'm just a single voice, I'll shut up for now.
Please don't! Without your comment I wouldn't have know that Forrest
will come up soon with a news.xml file and this will probably do
everything Bertrand wants to achive with his proposal. All Cocoon
committers can change and publish it.
[For many Cocoon devs it is mainly a lack of time to follow Forrest and
Lenya. So I (we) often think it is easier to reinvent the wheel than to
dive deeper into one of those. Sorry for this, but that's life ;-) and
difficult to change. Hence, comments like yours help a lot.]
Reinhard
Re: Cocoon news feed?
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> What do people think about us having our own RSS feed, with news about
> the Cocoon project?
The "changes" document in Forrest already has an RSS feed. I want to add
soon a news.xml file.
In this way each project can have a full range of files for project info:
- description.xml
- news.xml
- changes.xml
- todo.xml
- developers.xml
etc...
Cocoon is about the core, Forrest is an application of it. I find it a
bit disturbing that it's about Cocoon==us, Forrest&&Lenya==them in these
talks. Forrest was made exactly for this purpose, for making the Cocoon,
Xmlapache, etc websites, I don't know why you keep on saying to forget
it for now. If you want to start building the navigations, trails,
tables of contents incrementally, why can't it be done in Forrest?
Anyway, I'm just a single voice, I'll shut up for now. See ya on
forrest-dev if you like.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------