MS IIS and Apache feature war

[Bill Ataras <ba...@mobilemob.com>]

Just some thoughts here. I've been reading that MS is going after apache
market share by adding features to IIS (ASP etc).

I think java is the clear direction on the server side. I think we
ultimately need to combine apache + java (jsp/servlets) as the "new
apache" or in a way that clearly says apache includes jsp/servlets by
default (not yet another mod). MS is very good at shaping a product's
image (marketing). Apache has a killer brand and is 1st in market share.
I'd hate to see that lost because the open source community is superior
technically, but can't or won't (shall I say it?) "market".

I'm not saying add so much to apache that is crosses from web server to
app server, but certainly jsp/servlets are part of web server space...
and possibly jdbc with mysql - because what good are dynamic web pages
without decent persistence. Also add ssl in september when the rsa
patent expiires. (distribute from non-US site or something I don't
know).

Just thoughts. Java can win on the server apache has been winning so
far, let's not drop the ball.

Re: MS IIS and Apache feature war

["Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@relativity.yi.org>]

Pierpaolo Fumagalli wrote:
<snip> 
> We already have a hard time in developing the servlet engine, most of us
> for free, we provide in most cases binaries distributions (and let me
> tell you, I would like to distribute a .ZIP file "do-it-yourself"
> package, rather than a .EXE file with the installer for Win98, as we do
> in JServ).

Totally!  This has slowed us down.  I think this is a practice we should
stop just so that we can ship binaries faster.  A company like
Redhat/Covalent can write a GUI base setup if they want.

Kevin

-- 
Kevin A Burton
Senior Software Engineer
Kendara Inc
http://www.kendara.com
Mobile:  408-910-6145
Linux - The revolution will NOT be televised

Re: MS IIS and Apache feature war

[Pierpaolo Fumagalli <pi...@apache.org>]

Bill Ataras wrote:
> 
> I think what I'm saying is keep it as a mod, but put tomcat (jserv mod
> AND tomcat java/jar etc), and possibly a jvm etc into the actual apache
> TAR file. So apache v3.0 (or whatever) comes tested with tomcate 3.3 for
> example. Maybe same for jdbc and mysql.

And when the technology is ready, you can download also the nice box
with the installation CD in it...

Let's get real, and let's get rid of those marketing craps... We're
open-source developers.

We already have a hard time in developing the servlet engine, most of us
for free, we provide in most cases binaries distributions (and let me
tell you, I would like to distribute a .ZIP file "do-it-yourself"
package, rather than a .EXE file with the installer for Win98, as we do
in JServ).

You want the nice package? Buy it... Go to the first Office-Depot, find
and buy a nice CD-ROM for 50$ that includes all you need, even your free
Tomcat T-SHIRT.

	Pier

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-          P              I              E              R          -
stable structure erected over water to allow the docking of seacraft
<ma...@betaversion.org>    <http://www.betaversion.org/~pier/>

Re: MS IIS and Apache feature war

[Bill Ataras <ba...@mobilemob.com>]

> > >
> > > I think java is the clear direction on the server side. I think we
> > > ultimately need to combine apache + java (jsp/servlets) as the "new
> > > apache" or in a way that clearly says apache includes jsp/servlets by
> > > default (not yet another mod). MS is very good at shaping a product's
> > > image (marketing). Apache has a killer brand and is 1st in market share.
> > > I'd hate to see that lost because the open source community is superior
> > > technically, but can't or won't (shall I say it?) "market".
> Why not a mod???
> The user will not see the difference if Apache is preconfigured and shipped
> with TomCat module installed as MS do with ASP and IIS, and if you do you
> will still have one product not several to develop. There will allways be
> people using TomCat for other platforms than Apache in the future. And there
> will be LOTS, amongst other things because java.sun.com is linked into the
> Jakarta pages, and because the apache.org is getting more and more known,
> eaven amongst the MS users.


I think what I'm saying is keep it as a mod, but put tomcat (jserv mod
AND tomcat java/jar etc), and possibly a jvm etc into the actual apache
TAR file. So apache v3.0 (or whatever) comes tested with tomcate 3.3 for
example. Maybe same for jdbc and mysql.

RE: MS IIS and Apache feature war

[Klaus Myrseth <kl...@infohwy.no>]

Commented under each section (sorry for following the thread but i could not
help it :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: root@universe.kendara.com [mailto:root@universe.kendara.com]On
> Behalf Of Kevin A. Burton
> Sent: 13. januar 2000 01:42
> To: tomcat-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Re: MS IIS and Apache feature war
>
>
> Bill Ataras wrote:
> >
> > Just some thoughts here. I've been reading that MS is going after apache
> > market share by adding features to IIS (ASP etc).

I'm not scared, ASP has allways and will allways promote VBScript as the
language that work for most things (i dont even know why they have JScript
there, since it dont support evrything you can do with VBScript), and as
long as there is resistance about using ASP from developers (I made my first
WAP application there and it sucks for that, esp when it comes to code
reuse), i dont think customers will be advised to inplement anything there.
(Portability, freedom to choose your own products AFTER the web application
is done ...)

If a connector to TomCat is made for IIS, so customers can run IIS with
tomcat, you will likely see more ppl slowly migrating from IIS to Apache in
the long run, because they can do their web application development on a
portable module (and once again i have to bring up how much i love the 2.2
specs webapps :)...


> >
> > I think java is the clear direction on the server side. I think we
> > ultimately need to combine apache + java (jsp/servlets) as the "new
> > apache" or in a way that clearly says apache includes jsp/servlets by
> > default (not yet another mod). MS is very good at shaping a product's
> > image (marketing). Apache has a killer brand and is 1st in market share.
> > I'd hate to see that lost because the open source community is superior
> > technically, but can't or won't (shall I say it?) "market".
Why not a mod???
The user will not see the difference if Apache is preconfigured and shipped
with TomCat module installed as MS do with ASP and IIS, and if you do you
will still have one product not several to develop. There will allways be
people using TomCat for other platforms than Apache in the future. And there
will be LOTS, amongst other things because java.sun.com is linked into the
Jakarta pages, and because the apache.org is getting more and more known,
eaven amongst the MS users.

> >
> > I'm not saying add so much to apache that is crosses from web server to
> > app server, but certainly jsp/servlets are part of web server space...
> > and possibly jdbc with mysql - because what good are dynamic web pages
> > without decent persistence. Also add ssl in september when the rsa
> > patent expiires. (distribute from non-US site or something I don't
> > know).
> >
> > Just thoughts. Java can win on the server apache has been winning so
> > far, let's not drop the ball.
>
> Yes... but all this is IMO is marketing.  ASP is just a mod to IIS
> anyway... just distributed as part of the download.  There is no reason
> that we can't have them as separate projects and then packaging them
> together on DL.

Hehe nearly every platform run Apache as default webserver nowdays, so it
looks like marketing works for the Apache organisation :))))....And the last
reports i read was that Apache was gaining and IIS was loosing. As i
mentioned earlier, ppl is prolly starting to get tired of some of the
problems you get there when trying to use anything else than pure MS
producs. Hehe and you allways have that uptime discussion vs. cost pr day :)

I have to say that some of my claims here is subjective to some point, and i
hope i don't offend to many of you guys, but think about it. How many here
is running TomCat with IIS, it has to be a reason :)

PS. I hope the milestone build will be stable and the <%@ include works
properly...If it does I will ship a WAP application on java server pages on
TomCat in 14 days :)

(The customer loved the feature where i explained to them, they can migrate
from windows to linux without redeveloping the WAP application. Did i
mention how much i love the feature about the 2.2 specs web-app (hehe))
--
Klaus Myrseth
System Consultant - Java/WAP Department
(IIS-ASP portability whats that)
--

Re: MS IIS and Apache feature war

["Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@relativity.yi.org>]

Bill Ataras wrote:
> 
> Just some thoughts here. I've been reading that MS is going after apache
> market share by adding features to IIS (ASP etc).
> 
> I think java is the clear direction on the server side. I think we
> ultimately need to combine apache + java (jsp/servlets) as the "new
> apache" or in a way that clearly says apache includes jsp/servlets by
> default (not yet another mod). MS is very good at shaping a product's
> image (marketing). Apache has a killer brand and is 1st in market share.
> I'd hate to see that lost because the open source community is superior
> technically, but can't or won't (shall I say it?) "market".
> 
> I'm not saying add so much to apache that is crosses from web server to
> app server, but certainly jsp/servlets are part of web server space...
> and possibly jdbc with mysql - because what good are dynamic web pages
> without decent persistence. Also add ssl in september when the rsa
> patent expiires. (distribute from non-US site or something I don't
> know).
> 
> Just thoughts. Java can win on the server apache has been winning so
> far, let's not drop the ball.

Yes... but all this is IMO is marketing.  ASP is just a mod to IIS
anyway... just distributed as part of the download.  There is no reason
that we can't have them as separate projects and then packaging them
together on DL.

-- 
Kevin A Burton
Senior Software Engineer
Kendara Inc
http://www.kendara.com
Mobile:  408-910-6145
Linux - The revolution will NOT be televised

Re: MS IIS and Apache feature war

[Shantul Nigam <sh...@keiler.com>]

There is another way to look at this. Open Source development should
continue just as it has been. I would suggest that we look at the features
that other webservers have and see which ones we want to implement.

The people that should be going after M$ is not us. It is people like IBM
with Websphere and others. Websphere, as many already know, uses an Apache
base and adds functions to it. I think it already supports JSP and Servlets
through an IBM built system. In addition it does things like integrates into
a Domino network.

So, what do we do? We build a better mouse trap. Build the base, build the
things that are "Insanely Great" and let other battle it out feature by
feature.

One note about stats that come out. M$ server stats include things like
their Personal Web Server and IIS because they are all built by M$. Apache
stats include only Apache. They do not include Websphere or other products
based on Apache. You have to read the fine print to get that number. In
December, when you included these servers, Apache holds just over 60% of the
market.

Also, remember, there is a good reason for the "mod_" files as opposed to
direct integration. There are other technologies like PHP and Perl that
compete against ASP and JSP. Apache has the option of using one or all of
these just as IIS does. Only the PWS doesn't. Why would you want to follow
the M$ example of force feeding your solution to everyone?

Shantul.