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Posted to dev@forrest.apache.org by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org> on 2005/06/10 19:03:02 UTC
[RT] IRC vs. Skype
Hello devs,
I would like a channel for forrest on irc, like lenya and cocoon. The
results of IRC should go into the ml. There should be a bot recording
all conversion for archive.
I think it is better to have an irc channel where more then 2 person can
participate and a bot is recording everything then skype. Which seems to
get popular here on forrest.
I am using skype as well but not for discussing something about the
project. This discussions should happen here on this list.
I agree that not everything can be discussed on the list, which could be
done in a chat via IRC or skype. ...but I personally would like to see
this conversions happen at least in an IRC, where we can keep track of
them.
WDYT?
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: [RT] IRC vs. Skype
Posted by Ferdinand Soethe <sa...@soethe.net>.
This is an interesting debate. I'd like to comment but have not enough
time right now. I'll try to follow up on this mid next week.
--
Ferdinand Soethe
Re: (Re: [RT] IRC vs. Skype)
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 2005-06-11 at 09:43 -0400, Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Ross Gardler wrote:
> > Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> >
> >> Now that I think of it, what about a "cocoon-federation" mailing list
> >> where we Lenya+Forrest can discuss common issues? Probably it would
> >> suffice to make a virtual list that will post to both forrest+lenya
> >> communities.
> >
> > +1 I think that the intended collaboration on Doco would benefit a great
> > deal from such a virtual (or real) list.
>
> sounds like a splendid idea, +1
>
> only thing left to figure out is whether this is possible and what it's
> name should be
+1 Nicola thanks for that proposal. :)
To the name I like the "cocoon-federation" mailing suggested by Nicola.
salu2
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
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Re: (Re: [RT] IRC vs. Skype)
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 2005-06-11 at 09:43 -0400, Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Ross Gardler wrote:
> > Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> >
> >> Now that I think of it, what about a "cocoon-federation" mailing list
> >> where we Lenya+Forrest can discuss common issues? Probably it would
> >> suffice to make a virtual list that will post to both forrest+lenya
> >> communities.
> >
> > +1 I think that the intended collaboration on Doco would benefit a great
> > deal from such a virtual (or real) list.
>
> sounds like a splendid idea, +1
>
> only thing left to figure out is whether this is possible and what it's
> name should be
+1 Nicola thanks for that proposal. :)
To the name I like the "cocoon-federation" mailing suggested by Nicola.
salu2
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: (Re: [RT] IRC vs. Skype)
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Ross Gardler wrote:
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>> Now that I think of it, what about a "cocoon-federation" mailing list
>> where we Lenya+Forrest can discuss common issues? Probably it would
>> suffice to make a virtual list that will post to both forrest+lenya
>> communities.
>
> +1 I think that the intended collaboration on Doco would benefit a great
> deal from such a virtual (or real) list.
sounds like a splendid idea, +1
only thing left to figure out is whether this is possible and what it's
name should be
Re: (Re: [RT] IRC vs. Skype)
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Ross Gardler wrote:
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>> Now that I think of it, what about a "cocoon-federation" mailing list
>> where we Lenya+Forrest can discuss common issues? Probably it would
>> suffice to make a virtual list that will post to both forrest+lenya
>> communities.
>
> +1 I think that the intended collaboration on Doco would benefit a great
> deal from such a virtual (or real) list.
sounds like a splendid idea, +1
only thing left to figure out is whether this is possible and what it's
name should be
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(Re: [RT] IRC vs. Skype)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Now that I think of it, what about a "cocoon-federation" mailing list
> where we Lenya+Forrest can discuss common issues? Probably it would
> suffice to make a virtual list that will post to both forrest+lenya
> communities.
+1 I think that the intended collaboration on Doco would benefit a great
deal from such a virtual (or real) list.
I CC'd lenya dev on this reply ;-)
Ross
(Re: [RT] IRC vs. Skype)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Now that I think of it, what about a "cocoon-federation" mailing list
> where we Lenya+Forrest can discuss common issues? Probably it would
> suffice to make a virtual list that will post to both forrest+lenya
> communities.
+1 I think that the intended collaboration on Doco would benefit a great
deal from such a virtual (or real) list.
I CC'd lenya dev on this reply ;-)
Ross
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Re: [RT] IRC vs. Skype
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
...
> some experience from lenya: the irc channel is more a watering hole
> where people lurk and banter than have design decisions.
>
> it has helped community members to know each other better. i do not
> think it poses a danger of fragmentation.
>
> i actually would be happier if the cocoon and lenya channels would merge
> (the traffic is not very high ,and the cross-pollination would be good).
> same for forrest
This is an interesting proposal.
I am usually against use of IRC for opensource groups, but this is
interesting. I would be +1 on using the lenya channel for forrest
discussions also.
Now that I think of it, what about a "cocoon-federation" mailing list
where we Lenya+Forrest can discuss common issues? Probably it would
suffice to make a virtual list that will post to both forrest+lenya
communities.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [RT] IRC vs. Skype
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Ross Gardler wrote:
> I completely agree that no design discussion should be carried out on
> anthing other than EMail.
>
> I agree that we should frown upon the use of any communication that is
> not carried out via email, but do not agree that it is possible to
> always follow that rule.
>
> When we meet at ApacheCon will we have to sit in silence and communicate
> via IRC because some community memebers will not be present? (obvioulsy
> you are not suggesting this, I'm merely trying to illustrate that
> sometimes rules have to be broken)
>
> I will not vote against the creation of an IRC channel (as long as the
> bot is in place), but I do not want anyone to think that a lack of a
> vote against implies that I think it is a good idea, it only means that
> it *may* be useful one day, just as Skype is useful sometimes too.
some experience from lenya: the irc channel is more a watering hole
where people lurk and banter than have design decisions.
it has helped community members to know each other better. i do not
think it poses a danger of fragmentation.
i actually would be happier if the cocoon and lenya channels would merge
(the traffic is not very high ,and the cross-pollination would be good).
same for forrest
as for skype, i have used it in one on one situations to get a fellow
dev set up with eclipse, for instance. i do not think it is useful for
groups.
Re: [RT] IRC vs. Skype
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 2005-06-11 at 12:58 -0400, Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>
> > I would go with Nicola and Gregor, to use common resources that would
> > leverage the administration and setup of such a system. I reckon lenya
> > would happily meet in a #cocoon-federation channel, that would be
> > meeting point for cocoon, lenya and forrest committer.
>
> no.
>
> the whole point was to leverage an existing channel, not further the
> seperation by creating yet another.
>
So your requested suggestion for a name (see the other mail) was between
cocoon and lenya, because that channels exist?
> irc is about community, and creating more channels is totally counter to
> that. you'd want to make more people casually aware of what's going on
> without having them to join yet another channel.
>
Totally agree but that could be done as well in the suggested channel.
We can have bots to connect e.g. #lenya and #cocoon with
#cocoon-federation.
> contrary to a mailing list, this is not hijacking, because the people on
> the channel are specifically there to banter or lurk.
>
One can implement it with bots like I said before. From the
#cocoon-federation channel e.g. it is possible to send messages to
#lenya and as well follow their conversion. It would be a kind of meta
chat.
e.g.
#cocoon-federation
bot lenya
bot cocoon
bot ...
...
#cocoon
bot cocoon-federation
...
Me add #cocoon-federation:
I want to write to #lenya: @lenya say my text
I want to subscribe to the lenya discussion: @lenya subscribe
...
In this case I can lurk on #cocoon/#lenya being on #cocoon-federation. I
do not see any dividing thing on that. The only thing that I do not know
whether that is possible but I guess so. BTW a new mailing list would do
nearly the same thing.
salu2
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: [RT] IRC vs. Skype
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> I would go with Nicola and Gregor, to use common resources that would
> leverage the administration and setup of such a system. I reckon lenya
> would happily meet in a #cocoon-federation channel, that would be
> meeting point for cocoon, lenya and forrest committer.
no.
the whole point was to leverage an existing channel, not further the
seperation by creating yet another.
irc is about community, and creating more channels is totally counter to
that. you'd want to make more people casually aware of what's going on
without having them to join yet another channel.
contrary to a mailing list, this is not hijacking, because the people on
the channel are specifically there to banter or lurk.
Re: [RT] IRC vs. Skype
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 2005-06-11 at 14:49 +1000, David Crossley wrote:
> Thanks for raising this issue Thorsten. It definitely is an issue
> that needs careful attention and probably more discussion. I also
> agree with the subsequent replies. (I don't have much time now,
> concentrating on the release.) Don't worry, i am not reacting nor
> getting defensive, just responding.
:)
Thanks for that reply. I as well will give just a short reply because I
want to keep on writing the howto's.
Indeed I did not indented to press someone in the role of defending
skype or IRC. I should be more careful with my side remarks, people may
misunderstand them (I am sorry if they did).
I just read in many mails something about skype conversation and I agree
with you that we need to address this.
We said it is more efficient to use skype for:
1) setup of committer to get started
2) task coordination between a team (task-force) that is doing a
special task
The rule for any other medium besides the ml is that all results or
decisions have to go to the ml, as only official medium for
communication.
>
> Yesterday was the first time that i ever used Internet telephony.
> I installed it explicity so that Ferdinand and i could work quickly
> through the detail of the release process. (I do also need it for
> the upcoming ApacheCon to phone home.) Don't worry, we know the need
> for discussing most things on the list, so as to include the community.
>
I know and I +1 for this kind of communication. Like you said it is much
more efficient to use the phone for communicating about such task. I
also know that you will always record the results and send them to the
list.
> We needed to ensure that we were each comfortable with the process.
> You saw the commits to etc/RELEASE_PROCESS.txt file. We did also
> have some problem-solving to do. We need to do a branch experiment to
> solve the docs layout issue which has been discussed ad infinitum
> on the list, and on which i have spent a lot of personal time.
>
Yeah I saw and +1 for the decision do experiment in a new branch. ...and
thx to you and ferdinand for doing the release.
> Email would have been too inefficient. Internet telephony was perfect.
>
Agree.
> Like Gregor, we also used it to talk through the setup of Ferdinand's
> ASF committer account. We logged in together and made sure everything
> was okay.
>
> So skype certainly has its situations where it is useful. I reckon
> that it is not a matter of IRC versus skype, they both have their
> benefits when used appropriately.
>
Agree
> Now on to the issue of an IRC channel for Forrest. In the recent
> dev list discussion, we decided to hold a virtual meeting once
> per month on IRC. The details are in the archives.
>
> Here is an idea ...
>
> This would be an appropriate use of IRC solely for that 24-hour
> window. We could automatically tell people that it is being
> logged when they enter the room. Then we could review the log
> during the subsequent weeks, and bring any issues into the light
> of the list.
>
> Is it possible to close the channel at other times? In that way,
> we don't give the impression that there is an additional communication
> medium constantly available. We also don't have stacks of IRC logs
> to wade through. If people wanted to informally chat, then they could
> use some other channel.
>
> Not sure if that is possible - i am new to IRC and only participated
> on the old Cocoon FirstFriday sessions.
I would go with Nicola and Gregor, to use common resources that would
leverage the administration and setup of such a system. I reckon lenya
would happily meet in a #cocoon-federation channel, that would be
meeting point for cocoon, lenya and forrest committer.
...again thanks for this response, David.
salu2
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: [RT] IRC vs. Skype
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
> This would be an appropriate use of IRC solely for that 24-hour
> window. We could automatically tell people that it is being
> logged when they enter the room. Then we could review the log
> during the subsequent weeks, and bring any issues into the light
> of the list.
That would indeed prompt me to install an IRC client, I'd forgotten that
discussion.
Glad I didn't (quite) -1 it :-)
Ross
Re: [RT] IRC vs. Skype
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Thanks for raising this issue Thorsten. It definitely is an issue
that needs careful attention and probably more discussion. I also
agree with the subsequent replies. (I don't have much time now,
concentrating on the release.) Don't worry, i am not reacting nor
getting defensive, just responding.
Yesterday was the first time that i ever used Internet telephony.
I installed it explicity so that Ferdinand and i could work quickly
through the detail of the release process. (I do also need it for
the upcoming ApacheCon to phone home.) Don't worry, we know the need
for discussing most things on the list, so as to include the community.
We needed to ensure that we were each comfortable with the process.
You saw the commits to etc/RELEASE_PROCESS.txt file. We did also
have some problem-solving to do. We need to do a branch experiment to
solve the docs layout issue which has been discussed ad infinitum
on the list, and on which i have spent a lot of personal time.
Email would have been too inefficient. Internet telephony was perfect.
Like Gregor, we also used it to talk through the setup of Ferdinand's
ASF committer account. We logged in together and made sure everything
was okay.
So skype certainly has its situations where it is useful. I reckon
that it is not a matter of IRC versus skype, they both have their
benefits when used appropriately.
Now on to the issue of an IRC channel for Forrest. In the recent
dev list discussion, we decided to hold a virtual meeting once
per month on IRC. The details are in the archives.
Here is an idea ...
This would be an appropriate use of IRC solely for that 24-hour
window. We could automatically tell people that it is being
logged when they enter the room. Then we could review the log
during the subsequent weeks, and bring any issues into the light
of the list.
Is it possible to close the channel at other times? In that way,
we don't give the impression that there is an additional communication
medium constantly available. We also don't have stacks of IRC logs
to wade through. If people wanted to informally chat, then they could
use some other channel.
Not sure if that is possible - i am new to IRC and only participated
on the old Cocoon FirstFriday sessions.
--David
Re: [RT] IRC vs. Skype
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> I think it is better to have an irc channel where more then 2 person can
> participate and a bot is recording everything then skype. Which seems to
> get popular here on forrest.
Skype is a voice technology not a text one, therefore you cannot replace
it with IRC (yes it has IM but do people us it for that when you can
simply call someone)
Oh, and Skype is not just for two people, it is for up to 5 - not as
many as IRC, but it is not as restrictive as you say.
However, this is all irrelevant because...
I am -0.9 on an IRC channel for Forrest. It is unlikely you will find me
in there, the mailing list is a typed communication medium and I see no
benefit in using IRC instead. I do see considerable potential harm. As a
community we are literally spread across a 24 hour time zone. Email
allows everyone to particpate, asynchronously. IRC only allows those
that are awake and at their computer to participate.
(Having said that I have *no* experience of IRC, so I am open to
persuasion.)
I am also -0.9 on using Skype for Forrest. However, occasionally, it is
just more efficient than typed communications. I presume what prompted
this mail is that David and Ferdinand had what I think was referred to
as a long chat regarding the release. Lets examine this case:
The Forrest community has been trying to get the release out for an age
now. Very few people have had the time to contribute to the preparations
for the release. Now that we are finally ready (so it seems) David and
Ferdinand have both stepped up to the plate to take on the tedious task
of actually managing the release process. I applaud them for that.
*** Nobody else has offered any assistance. ***
If an hour on Skype between the two of them means that they can get on
with it twice as fast I am OK with that with the requirement that the
process is well documented. With respect to documentaiton of the process
let us recognise that David and Ferdinand are among the most diligent
members of the community when it comes to documentation. (I know the few
pages I have written would be nothing without their oversight and
clarifications).
Had this been a design discussion I would object very strongly. However
it was not, it was merely a process discussion. A process to carry out a
job nobody else had offered help with. A process that needs to be
defined in order to allow us to realise a design decision regarding the
versioned documentation. A design decision that took place on the mail list.
Sometimes rules need to be broken in order to ensure a job gets done. On
this occasion I'm just glad I'm not having to do the tedious job taken
on by David and Ferdinand.
What concerns me though is that your mail says "[Skype] seems to
get popular here on forrest." I'm not at all sure what the implication
of this statement is. If there is reason to believe that Skype is used
*too* frequently for community related issues then I think this is a
very serious concern and the introduction of an IRC channel will not
solve that problem.
> I agree that not everything can be discussed on the list, which could be
> done in a chat via IRC or skype. ...but I personally would like to see
> this conversions happen at least in an IRC, where we can keep track of
> them.
>
> WDYT?
I agree with your intent, but not with the method. I believe the
introduction of an IRC channel will see one of two things happen:
a) the channel is never used
b) it fragments the community
I completely agree that no design discussion should be carried out on
anthing other than EMail.
I agree that we should frown upon the use of any communication that is
not carried out via email, but do not agree that it is possible to
always follow that rule.
When we meet at ApacheCon will we have to sit in silence and communicate
via IRC because some community memebers will not be present? (obvioulsy
you are not suggesting this, I'm merely trying to illustrate that
sometimes rules have to be broken)
I will not vote against the creation of an IRC channel (as long as the
bot is in place), but I do not want anyone to think that a lack of a
vote against implies that I think it is a good idea, it only means that
it *may* be useful one day, just as Skype is useful sometimes too.
Ross