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Posted to dev@openmeetings.apache.org by Alexei Fedotov <al...@gmail.com> on 2013/06/16 19:03:13 UTC
Re: client/admin modularity rambling
My intention was to ship OM 3.0 quicker, by means of keeping anything
except admin in OpenLaszlo. This would help users to adopt the new
thing. Anyway, I see you are far ahead the admin.
--
With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
http://dataved.ru/
+7 916 562 8095
On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Maxim Solodovnik <so...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Alexei,
>
> First of all it is unclear to me WHY should we separate admin.
> It will be impossible to have open websocket if user will close/open pages
> this is why we agreed to use "single page ajax interface"
> After switching to 2 applications mode the things will getting even worst.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Alexei Fedotov <al...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hello Maxim,
>> too quickly going are we.
>>
>> So what is the problem with chat when talking about admin modularity?
>>
>> --
>> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
>> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
>> http://dataved.ru/
>> +7 916 562 8095
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Maxim Solodovnik <so...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > *1)* >> we should embed a small jabber server into openmeetings
>> > This is currently sounds like "unrealistic" "too far in the future" plan
>> :)
>> > Additionally it is introduces more "hard to implement" tasks:
>> > 1) we need global chat (current functionality) not sure how this can be
>> > implemented.
>> > 2) we need per room chat (current functionality) additional code will
>> need
>> > to be written to implement that
>> > 3) we need chat history for all types of chats (current functionality)
>> >
>> > Additionally I know no "small jabber servers" written in java and can be
>> > used as a integratable module. As per your own requirement OM is
>> currently
>> > requires too many 3rd party SW need to be configured, currently you
>> > proposing to add additional 3rd party program.
>> >
>> > *2)* >> There is no chat inside admin app
>> > In current HTML5 implementation chat is global function (like in FB or
>> > Gmail), so chat there is chat inside admin app actually
>> >
>> > *3)* >>I also think that we have "no wicket" app for admin. ... All admin
>> > UI can be re-used from standard http console
>> > It is unclear what does it mean could you please provide some use cases?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 8:46 PM, Alexei Fedotov <
>> alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>wrote:
>> >
>> >> Good. I don't see any disadvantages of separating admin. Let's start
>> >> with listing these disadvantages.
>> >>
>> >> > After separation of Admin it will be harder to sync chat messages for
>> >> example.
>> >> Why? Well, strategically we should embed a small jabber server into
>> >> openmeetings. As a separate module. Chat messages should be
>> >> synchronized via standard jabber protocol. There is no chat inside
>> >> admin app. I also believe that admin app can be opened at the next tab
>> >> to openmeetings.
>> >>
>> >> I also think that we have "no wicket" app for admin. All admin UI can
>> >> be re-used from standard http console. Still, that's another part of
>> >> discussion.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
>> >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
>> >> http://dataved.ru/
>> >> +7 916 562 8095
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:39 PM, Maxim Solodovnik <solomax666@gmail.com
>> >
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Hello Alexei,
>> >> >
>> >> > It is possible to create different wicket app for admin, but I see no
>> >> > reasons for it.
>> >> > In my opinion there will be less advantages than disadvantages after
>> such
>> >> > separation.
>> >> >
>> >> > While discussing HTML5 OM design Sebastian and I were agreed to have
>> >> > "single page" architecture this will allow to have single websocket
>> per
>> >> > user opened allowing as to push any system messages to the user no
>> matter
>> >> > what OM area he/she is currently using.
>> >> > After separation of Admin it will be harder to sync chat messages for
>> >> > example.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Alexei Fedotov <
>> >> alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hello folks,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I have recently participated in discussions on openmeetings
>> management
>> >> >> interface. Open of possible options we have discussed was having
>> admin
>> >> >> module separated from the code base. Modularity helps debugging
>> things
>> >> >> and shipping releases. Also being modular helps others to re-use our
>> >> >> code, and re-usability if one of our competitive advantages. BTW,
>> >> >> that's why I support our client code to be in a separate module -
>> >> >> people want having their client UIs customized.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Java has a special API for managing applications [1]. It basically
>> >> >> provides the ability of changing internal state of the application
>> >> >> (flags, parameters, etc) with minimal UI beautification. While there
>> >> >> is no requirement to use this interface, at least it worth taking a
>> >> >> look. This allows using standard jconsole or other HTTP-based
>> consoles
>> >> >> to manage an applications.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Which questions help understanding if some functionality worth a
>> >> >> separate module?
>> >> >> * Does this module have a different customer base? (May be true for
>> >> >> whiteboard, and the server code with client code excluded.)
>> >> >> * Is the module big enough? (True for both client and server
>> modules.)
>> >> >> * Are changes to this module independent from openmeetings changes?
>> >> >> (True for whiteboard, webstart client, admin console UI.)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I wonder if it is possible to build independent modules in wicket.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Management_Extensions
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
>> >> >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
>> >> >> http://dataved.ru/
>> >> >> +7 916 562 8095
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > WBR
>> >> > Maxim aka solomax
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > WBR
>> > Maxim aka solomax
>>
>
>
>
> --
> WBR
> Maxim aka solomax
Re: client/admin modularity rambling
Posted by Alexei Fedotov <al...@gmail.com>.
I fully support going step by step. Users won't accept too many
changes at once, and we will have time to fix bugs.
--
With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
http://dataved.ru/
+7 916 562 8095
[1] Start using Apache Openmeetings today, http://openmeetings.apache.org/
[2] Join Alexei Fedotov @linkedin, http://ru.linkedin.com/in/dataved/
[3] Join Alexei Fedotov @facebook, http://www.facebook.com/openmeetings
On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 3:54 AM, seba.wagner@gmail.com
<se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Alexei,
>
> I understand your concerns however, as a complete HTML5 migration is
> technically not possible yet the idea was to migrate those parts where we
> have a clear technical vision on how it can work.
>
> So actually the plan for OpenMeetings 3.0 is: OpenMeetings 3.0 will deliver
> everything in HTML5 except the conference room.
>
> The only HTML5 real-time component would be the chat in the dashboard.
>
> Sebastian
>
>
>
>
> 2013/6/17 Alexei Fedotov <al...@gmail.com>
>
>> My intention was to ship OM 3.0 quicker, by means of keeping anything
>> except admin in OpenLaszlo. This would help users to adopt the new
>> thing. Anyway, I see you are far ahead the admin.
>>
>> --
>> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
>> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
>> http://dataved.ru/
>> +7 916 562 8095
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Maxim Solodovnik <so...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Hello Alexei,
>> >
>> > First of all it is unclear to me WHY should we separate admin.
>> > It will be impossible to have open websocket if user will close/open
>> pages
>> > this is why we agreed to use "single page ajax interface"
>> > After switching to 2 applications mode the things will getting even
>> worst.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Alexei Fedotov <
>> alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hello Maxim,
>> >> too quickly going are we.
>> >>
>> >> So what is the problem with chat when talking about admin modularity?
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
>> >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
>> >> http://dataved.ru/
>> >> +7 916 562 8095
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Maxim Solodovnik <solomax666@gmail.com
>> >
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > *1)* >> we should embed a small jabber server into openmeetings
>> >> > This is currently sounds like "unrealistic" "too far in the future"
>> plan
>> >> :)
>> >> > Additionally it is introduces more "hard to implement" tasks:
>> >> > 1) we need global chat (current functionality) not sure how this can
>> be
>> >> > implemented.
>> >> > 2) we need per room chat (current functionality) additional code will
>> >> need
>> >> > to be written to implement that
>> >> > 3) we need chat history for all types of chats (current functionality)
>> >> >
>> >> > Additionally I know no "small jabber servers" written in java and can
>> be
>> >> > used as a integratable module. As per your own requirement OM is
>> >> currently
>> >> > requires too many 3rd party SW need to be configured, currently you
>> >> > proposing to add additional 3rd party program.
>> >> >
>> >> > *2)* >> There is no chat inside admin app
>> >> > In current HTML5 implementation chat is global function (like in FB or
>> >> > Gmail), so chat there is chat inside admin app actually
>> >> >
>> >> > *3)* >>I also think that we have "no wicket" app for admin. ... All
>> admin
>> >> > UI can be re-used from standard http console
>> >> > It is unclear what does it mean could you please provide some use
>> cases?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 8:46 PM, Alexei Fedotov <
>> >> alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Good. I don't see any disadvantages of separating admin. Let's start
>> >> >> with listing these disadvantages.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > After separation of Admin it will be harder to sync chat messages
>> for
>> >> >> example.
>> >> >> Why? Well, strategically we should embed a small jabber server into
>> >> >> openmeetings. As a separate module. Chat messages should be
>> >> >> synchronized via standard jabber protocol. There is no chat inside
>> >> >> admin app. I also believe that admin app can be opened at the next
>> tab
>> >> >> to openmeetings.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I also think that we have "no wicket" app for admin. All admin UI can
>> >> >> be re-used from standard http console. Still, that's another part of
>> >> >> discussion.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
>> >> >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
>> >> >> http://dataved.ru/
>> >> >> +7 916 562 8095
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:39 PM, Maxim Solodovnik <
>> solomax666@gmail.com
>> >> >
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Hello Alexei,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > It is possible to create different wicket app for admin, but I see
>> no
>> >> >> > reasons for it.
>> >> >> > In my opinion there will be less advantages than disadvantages
>> after
>> >> such
>> >> >> > separation.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > While discussing HTML5 OM design Sebastian and I were agreed to
>> have
>> >> >> > "single page" architecture this will allow to have single websocket
>> >> per
>> >> >> > user opened allowing as to push any system messages to the user no
>> >> matter
>> >> >> > what OM area he/she is currently using.
>> >> >> > After separation of Admin it will be harder to sync chat messages
>> for
>> >> >> > example.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Alexei Fedotov <
>> >> >> alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Hello folks,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I have recently participated in discussions on openmeetings
>> >> management
>> >> >> >> interface. Open of possible options we have discussed was having
>> >> admin
>> >> >> >> module separated from the code base. Modularity helps debugging
>> >> things
>> >> >> >> and shipping releases. Also being modular helps others to re-use
>> our
>> >> >> >> code, and re-usability if one of our competitive advantages. BTW,
>> >> >> >> that's why I support our client code to be in a separate module -
>> >> >> >> people want having their client UIs customized.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Java has a special API for managing applications [1]. It basically
>> >> >> >> provides the ability of changing internal state of the application
>> >> >> >> (flags, parameters, etc) with minimal UI beautification. While
>> there
>> >> >> >> is no requirement to use this interface, at least it worth taking
>> a
>> >> >> >> look. This allows using standard jconsole or other HTTP-based
>> >> consoles
>> >> >> >> to manage an applications.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Which questions help understanding if some functionality worth a
>> >> >> >> separate module?
>> >> >> >> * Does this module have a different customer base? (May be true
>> for
>> >> >> >> whiteboard, and the server code with client code excluded.)
>> >> >> >> * Is the module big enough? (True for both client and server
>> >> modules.)
>> >> >> >> * Are changes to this module independent from openmeetings
>> changes?
>> >> >> >> (True for whiteboard, webstart client, admin console UI.)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I wonder if it is possible to build independent modules in wicket.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Management_Extensions
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
>> >> >> >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
>> >> >> >> http://dataved.ru/
>> >> >> >> +7 916 562 8095
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --
>> >> >> > WBR
>> >> >> > Maxim aka solomax
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > WBR
>> >> > Maxim aka solomax
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > WBR
>> > Maxim aka solomax
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Sebastian Wagner
> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock
> http://www.webbase-design.de
> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com
> seba.wagner@gmail.com
Re: client/admin modularity rambling
Posted by "seba.wagner@gmail.com" <se...@gmail.com>.
Hi Alexei,
I understand your concerns however, as a complete HTML5 migration is
technically not possible yet the idea was to migrate those parts where we
have a clear technical vision on how it can work.
So actually the plan for OpenMeetings 3.0 is: OpenMeetings 3.0 will deliver
everything in HTML5 except the conference room.
The only HTML5 real-time component would be the chat in the dashboard.
Sebastian
2013/6/17 Alexei Fedotov <al...@gmail.com>
> My intention was to ship OM 3.0 quicker, by means of keeping anything
> except admin in OpenLaszlo. This would help users to adopt the new
> thing. Anyway, I see you are far ahead the admin.
>
> --
> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
> http://dataved.ru/
> +7 916 562 8095
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Maxim Solodovnik <so...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hello Alexei,
> >
> > First of all it is unclear to me WHY should we separate admin.
> > It will be impossible to have open websocket if user will close/open
> pages
> > this is why we agreed to use "single page ajax interface"
> > After switching to 2 applications mode the things will getting even
> worst.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Alexei Fedotov <
> alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> >> Hello Maxim,
> >> too quickly going are we.
> >>
> >> So what is the problem with chat when talking about admin modularity?
> >>
> >> --
> >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
> >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
> >> http://dataved.ru/
> >> +7 916 562 8095
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Maxim Solodovnik <solomax666@gmail.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >> > *1)* >> we should embed a small jabber server into openmeetings
> >> > This is currently sounds like "unrealistic" "too far in the future"
> plan
> >> :)
> >> > Additionally it is introduces more "hard to implement" tasks:
> >> > 1) we need global chat (current functionality) not sure how this can
> be
> >> > implemented.
> >> > 2) we need per room chat (current functionality) additional code will
> >> need
> >> > to be written to implement that
> >> > 3) we need chat history for all types of chats (current functionality)
> >> >
> >> > Additionally I know no "small jabber servers" written in java and can
> be
> >> > used as a integratable module. As per your own requirement OM is
> >> currently
> >> > requires too many 3rd party SW need to be configured, currently you
> >> > proposing to add additional 3rd party program.
> >> >
> >> > *2)* >> There is no chat inside admin app
> >> > In current HTML5 implementation chat is global function (like in FB or
> >> > Gmail), so chat there is chat inside admin app actually
> >> >
> >> > *3)* >>I also think that we have "no wicket" app for admin. ... All
> admin
> >> > UI can be re-used from standard http console
> >> > It is unclear what does it mean could you please provide some use
> cases?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 8:46 PM, Alexei Fedotov <
> >> alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Good. I don't see any disadvantages of separating admin. Let's start
> >> >> with listing these disadvantages.
> >> >>
> >> >> > After separation of Admin it will be harder to sync chat messages
> for
> >> >> example.
> >> >> Why? Well, strategically we should embed a small jabber server into
> >> >> openmeetings. As a separate module. Chat messages should be
> >> >> synchronized via standard jabber protocol. There is no chat inside
> >> >> admin app. I also believe that admin app can be opened at the next
> tab
> >> >> to openmeetings.
> >> >>
> >> >> I also think that we have "no wicket" app for admin. All admin UI can
> >> >> be re-used from standard http console. Still, that's another part of
> >> >> discussion.
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
> >> >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
> >> >> http://dataved.ru/
> >> >> +7 916 562 8095
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:39 PM, Maxim Solodovnik <
> solomax666@gmail.com
> >> >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Hello Alexei,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It is possible to create different wicket app for admin, but I see
> no
> >> >> > reasons for it.
> >> >> > In my opinion there will be less advantages than disadvantages
> after
> >> such
> >> >> > separation.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > While discussing HTML5 OM design Sebastian and I were agreed to
> have
> >> >> > "single page" architecture this will allow to have single websocket
> >> per
> >> >> > user opened allowing as to push any system messages to the user no
> >> matter
> >> >> > what OM area he/she is currently using.
> >> >> > After separation of Admin it will be harder to sync chat messages
> for
> >> >> > example.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Alexei Fedotov <
> >> >> alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Hello folks,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I have recently participated in discussions on openmeetings
> >> management
> >> >> >> interface. Open of possible options we have discussed was having
> >> admin
> >> >> >> module separated from the code base. Modularity helps debugging
> >> things
> >> >> >> and shipping releases. Also being modular helps others to re-use
> our
> >> >> >> code, and re-usability if one of our competitive advantages. BTW,
> >> >> >> that's why I support our client code to be in a separate module -
> >> >> >> people want having their client UIs customized.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Java has a special API for managing applications [1]. It basically
> >> >> >> provides the ability of changing internal state of the application
> >> >> >> (flags, parameters, etc) with minimal UI beautification. While
> there
> >> >> >> is no requirement to use this interface, at least it worth taking
> a
> >> >> >> look. This allows using standard jconsole or other HTTP-based
> >> consoles
> >> >> >> to manage an applications.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Which questions help understanding if some functionality worth a
> >> >> >> separate module?
> >> >> >> * Does this module have a different customer base? (May be true
> for
> >> >> >> whiteboard, and the server code with client code excluded.)
> >> >> >> * Is the module big enough? (True for both client and server
> >> modules.)
> >> >> >> * Are changes to this module independent from openmeetings
> changes?
> >> >> >> (True for whiteboard, webstart client, admin console UI.)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I wonder if it is possible to build independent modules in wicket.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Management_Extensions
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
> >> >> >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
> >> >> >> http://dataved.ru/
> >> >> >> +7 916 562 8095
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > WBR
> >> >> > Maxim aka solomax
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > WBR
> >> > Maxim aka solomax
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > WBR
> > Maxim aka solomax
>
--
Sebastian Wagner
https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock
http://www.webbase-design.de
http://www.wagner-sebastian.com
seba.wagner@gmail.com