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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Peter Royal <pr...@managingpartners.com> on 2001/10/11 21:04:17 UTC
phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
I'm not quite sure how to hook together all the phoenix pieces to get it to
do what I want here.
We have an application that is 2 pieces, a piece built with Cocoon that
currently runs in Tomcat 3.x which communicates with the 2nd piece via RMI.
This is slow. I want to bring them into the same JVM (when both pieces are
on the same machine), and I believe phoenix is the tool I need to do that.
I can package up my RMI server as a block no problem, I'm just not sure of
how to make that available to the avalon structure that lives inside the
Cocoon webapp.
I looked at the Bay wrapper for Catalina, but I don't see any easy way to
pass information into webapps. I'm thinking maybe the parent
ComponentManager support that was added to Cocoon might be what I'm looking
for? But it seems to just allow you to define a class to be instantiated.
I'm not quite sure how it can "reach out" into the phoenix world that
contains it.
Any guidance will be appreciated :)
-pete
--
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Eung-ju Park <co...@isoft.co.kr>.
successfully compiled with recent phoenix. but not yet tested in servlet
container. ;-)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eung-ju Park" <co...@isoft.co.kr>
To: "Avalon Development" <av...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
> see
http://www.mail-archive.com/avalon-dev@jakarta.apache.org/msg01906.html
> .
> It's not tested with recent phoenix. I will test again and reporting to
this
> list.
>
> PS. How about add to org.apache.avalon.phoenix.frontends package?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donald" <do...@apache.org>
> To: "Avalon Development" <av...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 5:56 AM
> Subject: Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
>
>
> > On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 05:04, Peter Royal wrote:
> > > I'm not quite sure how to hook together all the phoenix pieces to get
it
> to
> > > do what I want here.
> > >
> > > We have an application that is 2 pieces, a piece built with Cocoon
that
> > > currently runs in Tomcat 3.x which communicates with the 2nd piece via
> RMI.
> > > This is slow. I want to bring them into the same JVM (when both pieces
> are
> > > on the same machine), and I believe phoenix is the tool I need to do
> that.
> > > I can package up my RMI server as a block no problem, I'm just not
sure
> of
> > > how to make that available to the avalon structure that lives inside
the
> > > Cocoon webapp.
> >
> > I would actually suggest that you embed Phoenix into Cocoon. The easiest
> way
> > to do this is to look at SingleAppEmbeddor. It will embed a single .sar
> file
> > and allows it all to use ContextClassLoader and stuff. I don't use it
> myself
> > ... someone want to give an example of it's use?
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Pete
> >
> > *------------------------------------------------------*
> > | Despite your efforts to be a romantic hero, you will |
> > | gradually evolve into a postmodern plot device. |
> > *------------------------------------------------------*
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: avalon-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: avalon-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Eung-ju Park <co...@apache.org>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Donald" <do...@apache.org>
To: "Avalon Development" <av...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
> On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 13:13, Eung-ju Park wrote:
> > > Bot at this stage. Well we could create a ClassLoader whos parent is
the
> > > ContextClassLoader and which contains all the jar files?
> >
> > Is it possible "class in parent ClassLoader" access "classes loaded in
> > child ClassLoader"?
>
> nope ;)
>
> > Servlet and JSP is in outside of custom ClassLoader. therefore Servlet
does
> > not access classes in custom ClassLoader.
> >
> > Just deploy server application in servlet container is not problem with
> > PolicyClassLoader.
> > Use blocks in Servlet or JSP is problem.
>
> Hmm - in that case I can't think of any alternative to putting the
> blocks/support into WEB-INF/lib/* then ;/
Yes. It's the best solution. It is not a big problem for me. I think it's
own pros. :-)
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Pete
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "Remember, your body is a temple; however, it's also your
> dancehall and bowling alley" -- Dharma Montgomery
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 13:13, Eung-ju Park wrote:
> > Bot at this stage. Well we could create a ClassLoader whos parent is the
> > ContextClassLoader and which contains all the jar files?
>
> Is it possible "class in parent ClassLoader" access "classes loaded in
> child ClassLoader"?
nope ;)
> Servlet and JSP is in outside of custom ClassLoader. therefore Servlet does
> not access classes in custom ClassLoader.
>
> Just deploy server application in servlet container is not problem with
> PolicyClassLoader.
> Use blocks in Servlet or JSP is problem.
Hmm - in that case I can't think of any alternative to putting the
blocks/support into WEB-INF/lib/* then ;/
--
Cheers,
Pete
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Remember, your body is a temple; however, it's also your
dancehall and bowling alley" -- Dharma Montgomery
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Eung-ju Park <co...@isoft.co.kr>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Donald" <do...@apache.org>
To: "Avalon Development" <av...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
> On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 01:05, Eung-ju Park wrote:
> > Added org.apache.avalon.phoenix.frontends.ServiceServlet.
>
> How about the name PhoenixServlet ? (I think Service is a bit too overused
> and not descriptive enough)
Yes. PhoenixServlet is good.
>
> > And tested with
> > avalon-demo server application successfully. :-)
> >
> > But have problem. :-(
> > ContextClassLoaderManager just return current thread's ClassLoader.
> > therefore dont't load blocks( blocks/*.bar ). We must copy blocks/*.bar
to
> > WEB-INF/lib/*.jar. :-<
> >
> > Is there anyone have solution?
>
> Bot at this stage. Well we could create a ClassLoader whos parent is the
> ContextClassLoader and which contains all the jar files?
Is it possible "class in parent ClassLoader" access "classes loaded in child
ClassLoader"?
Servlet and JSP is in outside of custom ClassLoader. therefore Servlet does
not access classes in custom ClassLoader.
Just deploy server application in servlet container is not problem with
PolicyClassLoader.
Use blocks in Servlet or JSP is problem.
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Pete
>
> "Artists can color the sky red because they know it's blue. Those of us
who
> aren't artists must color things the way they really are or people might
> think we're stupid." -- Jules Feiffer
>
>
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 01:05, Eung-ju Park wrote:
> Added org.apache.avalon.phoenix.frontends.ServiceServlet.
How about the name PhoenixServlet ? (I think Service is a bit too overused
and not descriptive enough)
> And tested with
> avalon-demo server application successfully. :-)
>
> But have problem. :-(
> ContextClassLoaderManager just return current thread's ClassLoader.
> therefore dont't load blocks( blocks/*.bar ). We must copy blocks/*.bar to
> WEB-INF/lib/*.jar. :-<
>
> Is there anyone have solution?
Bot at this stage. Well we could create a ClassLoader whos parent is the
ContextClassLoader and which contains all the jar files?
--
Cheers,
Pete
"Artists can color the sky red because they know it's blue. Those of us who
aren't artists must color things the way they really are or people might
think we're stupid." -- Jules Feiffer
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Eung-ju Park <co...@isoft.co.kr>.
Added org.apache.avalon.phoenix.frontends.ServiceServlet. And tested with
avalon-demo server application successfully. :-)
But have problem. :-(
ContextClassLoaderManager just return current thread's ClassLoader.
therefore dont't load blocks( blocks/*.bar ). We must copy blocks/*.bar to
WEB-INF/lib/*.jar. :-<
Is there anyone have solution?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Donald" <do...@apache.org>
To: "Avalon Development" <av...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
> On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:26, Eung-ju Park wrote:
> > PS. How about add to org.apache.avalon.phoenix.frontends package?
>
> +1
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Pete
>
> *-----------------------------------------------------*
> | For those who refuse to understand, no explanation |
> | will ever suffice. For those who refuse to believe, |
> | no evidence will ever suffice. |
> *-----------------------------------------------------*
>
>
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:26, Eung-ju Park wrote:
> PS. How about add to org.apache.avalon.phoenix.frontends package?
+1
--
Cheers,
Pete
*-----------------------------------------------------*
| For those who refuse to understand, no explanation |
| will ever suffice. For those who refuse to believe, |
| no evidence will ever suffice. |
*-----------------------------------------------------*
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Eung-ju Park <co...@isoft.co.kr>.
see http://www.mail-archive.com/avalon-dev@jakarta.apache.org/msg01906.html
.
It's not tested with recent phoenix. I will test again and reporting to this
list.
PS. How about add to org.apache.avalon.phoenix.frontends package?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Donald" <do...@apache.org>
To: "Avalon Development" <av...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 5:56 AM
Subject: Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
> On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 05:04, Peter Royal wrote:
> > I'm not quite sure how to hook together all the phoenix pieces to get it
to
> > do what I want here.
> >
> > We have an application that is 2 pieces, a piece built with Cocoon that
> > currently runs in Tomcat 3.x which communicates with the 2nd piece via
RMI.
> > This is slow. I want to bring them into the same JVM (when both pieces
are
> > on the same machine), and I believe phoenix is the tool I need to do
that.
> > I can package up my RMI server as a block no problem, I'm just not sure
of
> > how to make that available to the avalon structure that lives inside the
> > Cocoon webapp.
>
> I would actually suggest that you embed Phoenix into Cocoon. The easiest
way
> to do this is to look at SingleAppEmbeddor. It will embed a single .sar
file
> and allows it all to use ContextClassLoader and stuff. I don't use it
myself
> ... someone want to give an example of it's use?
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Pete
>
> *------------------------------------------------------*
> | Despite your efforts to be a romantic hero, you will |
> | gradually evolve into a postmodern plot device. |
> *------------------------------------------------------*
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: avalon-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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>
>
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@managingpartners.com>.
At 10:36 AM 10/12/2001 +0200, you wrote:
>Even if he has no Phoenix installation, it would make more sense to
>create one, because he might want to add more .sar applications to it
>later on. The point of having an application server like Phoenix is to
>have a single platform, which runs all applications. This makes for
>easier management and better re-usability.
Yes, this is what I was hoping to do. While Peter's suggestion of using the
SingleAppEmbeddor would work, I would have to hack up the Cocoon servlet to
load my application. Having Tomcat/Cocoon available as a SAR would be more
reusable for everybody else that may have similar needs in the future.
-pete
--
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@yahoo.com>.
Ulrich,
>>This is one of the things discussed on Thursday in the pub.
>>
>
>We tried to send our boss to the pub meeting, but apparently it didn't
>work out. Perhaps the English beer? :)
>
Hmmm, he missed the huddle of *continental* beer drinking fools upstairs
then? ;-)
- Paul
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Uli Mayring <ul...@denic.de>.
On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, Paul Hammant wrote:
> This is one of the things discussed on Thursday in the pub.
We tried to send our boss to the pub meeting, but apparently it didn't
work out. Perhaps the English beer? :)
Ulrich
--
Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Softwareentwicklung
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@yahoo.com>.
Ulrich,
>Well, in a case where there is already a Phoenix installation running
>with several .sar applications, it doesn't make much sense to install
>another Phoenix/Cocoon conglomerate and run that seperately. Instead it
>would be nice to just add another .sar application to the existing
>Phoenix installation, which provides the Cocoon functionality. This .sar
>application could then contain an additional block, which provides the
>RMI functionality the guy was talking about. Alternatively he could put
>the block into its own .sar application, whichever seems most reasonable
>in his scenario.
>
This is one of the things discussed on Thursday in the pub. Pratik's
colleage Liam is typing up some minutes and I guess we'll see them
published soon.
InterSAR communication and dependancy :- I'll always vote +1 for an
assembler being able to assemble some blocks outside a SAR file for
sharing between SAR applications.
Regards,
- Paul H
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>.
Peter Donald wrote:
>
> > Why is it not possible to run Cocoon/Tomcat as a .sar application? Then
> > the guy could just add his block to it.
>
> I am not sure what you mean. Can you explain?
Well, in a case where there is already a Phoenix installation running
with several .sar applications, it doesn't make much sense to install
another Phoenix/Cocoon conglomerate and run that seperately. Instead it
would be nice to just add another .sar application to the existing
Phoenix installation, which provides the Cocoon functionality. This .sar
application could then contain an additional block, which provides the
RMI functionality the guy was talking about. Alternatively he could put
the block into its own .sar application, whichever seems most reasonable
in his scenario.
Even if he has no Phoenix installation, it would make more sense to
create one, because he might want to add more .sar applications to it
later on. The point of having an application server like Phoenix is to
have a single platform, which runs all applications. This makes for
easier management and better re-usability.
Ulrich
--
Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Systementwicklung
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:46, Ulrich Mayring wrote:
> Peter Donald wrote:
> > I would actually suggest that you embed Phoenix into Cocoon. The easiest
> > way to do this is to look at SingleAppEmbeddor. It will embed a single
> > .sar file and allows it all to use ContextClassLoader and stuff. I don't
> > use it myself ... someone want to give an example of it's use?
>
> Why is it not possible to run Cocoon/Tomcat as a .sar application? Then
> the guy could just add his block to it.
I am not sure what you mean. Can you explain?
--
Cheers,
Pete
----------------------------------------------------------
Which is worse: Ignorance or Apathy? Who knows? Who cares?
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>.
Peter Donald wrote:
>
> I would actually suggest that you embed Phoenix into Cocoon. The easiest way
> to do this is to look at SingleAppEmbeddor. It will embed a single .sar file
> and allows it all to use ContextClassLoader and stuff. I don't use it myself
> ... someone want to give an example of it's use?
Why is it not possible to run Cocoon/Tomcat as a .sar application? Then
the guy could just add his block to it.
Ulrich
--
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DENIC eG, Systementwicklung
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 05:04, Peter Royal wrote:
> I'm not quite sure how to hook together all the phoenix pieces to get it to
> do what I want here.
>
> We have an application that is 2 pieces, a piece built with Cocoon that
> currently runs in Tomcat 3.x which communicates with the 2nd piece via RMI.
> This is slow. I want to bring them into the same JVM (when both pieces are
> on the same machine), and I believe phoenix is the tool I need to do that.
> I can package up my RMI server as a block no problem, I'm just not sure of
> how to make that available to the avalon structure that lives inside the
> Cocoon webapp.
I would actually suggest that you embed Phoenix into Cocoon. The easiest way
to do this is to look at SingleAppEmbeddor. It will embed a single .sar file
and allows it all to use ContextClassLoader and stuff. I don't use it myself
... someone want to give an example of it's use?
--
Cheers,
Pete
*------------------------------------------------------*
| Despite your efforts to be a romantic hero, you will |
| gradually evolve into a postmodern plot device. |
*------------------------------------------------------*
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 23:51, Peter Royal wrote:
> Correct me if I'm wrong here, but a block that implement Composable gets a
> handle to the ComponentManager that contains all other loaded blocks (or
> blocks that the Composable blocks has marked as dependencies). Could that
> ComponentManager be made availble via the JNDI InitialContext that Tomcat4
> provides to webapps?
Thats the way to do it (Ie Communication via JNDI) if we want to do it via
the servlet "standard".
> That ComponentManager could then be set as the parent
> CM for the one Cocoon creates for itself. Then whenever an attempt it made
> to look up a dependent block, it will fall through to the CM we got via the
> InitialContext.
>
> If this sounds feasible, let me know. I'm more than happy to help implement
> it. -pete
Well if you can get Bay to do it then great. Not sure really whats further
needed to get everything operational ?
--
Cheers,
Pete
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Remember, your body is a temple; however, it's also your
dancehall and bowling alley" -- Dharma Montgomery
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@managingpartners.com>.
At 11:34 AM 10/12/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>I've not really finished it yet. When it is it should expose an interface
>that would allow blocks to depend on it and add hosts and webapps/war
>files. It should be quite good.
>
>It still won't help in your communication with Coocoon using RMI. Cocoon
>is not a block in it's own right *yet*. I guess if it was it would also
>solve your problem. I've talked to Berin about this and he thinks that it
>could, in the future, be a block as well as a WAR file deployable app.
Having Cocoon as a block would solve my problem, or having the ability for
webapps running inside of the Bay wrapper to depend on other blocks would too.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but a block that implement Composable gets a
handle to the ComponentManager that contains all other loaded blocks (or
blocks that the Composable blocks has marked as dependencies). Could that
ComponentManager be made availble via the JNDI InitialContext that Tomcat4
provides to webapps? That ComponentManager could then be set as the parent
CM for the one Cocoon creates for itself. Then whenever an attempt it made
to look up a dependent block, it will fall through to the CM we got via the
InitialContext.
If this sounds feasible, let me know. I'm more than happy to help implement it.
-pete
--
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>.
Paul Hammant wrote:
>
> It still won't help in your communication with Coocoon using RMI.
> Cocoon is not a block in it's own right *yet*. I guess if it was it
> would also solve your problem. I've talked to Berin about this and he
> thinks that it could, in the future, be a block as well as a WAR file
> deployable app.
This mail may be a bit off-topic, but perhaps it can help thinking along
different lines for communicating with Cocoon.
I use SOAP (via a self-written Cocoon taglib) to communicate with
Cocoon. The taglib is downloadable from my homepage
http://ulim.cocoonhost.com/ (however, it only supports Cocoon1).
In any event the taglib is a generic SOAP client that acts as a HTTP
interface on top of SOAP services. That means the clients do not have to
speak SOAP, they just have to speak HTTP. So you can write clients in
Perl or whatever language suits you - after all, why should programmatic
clients require a particular platform (language/library/runtime), when
interactive clients (webbrowsers) don't? I believe that programmatic
clients should enjoy the same freedom as interactive clients and
therefore speak HTTP.
The server-side SOAP services need to have the SOAP libraries available
(I use Apache SOAP), but no special code is needed - so you can take any
of your programs and let it run as a SOAP service without changing the
code. I have a fairly elaborate installation of SOAP services and
programmatic clients, who use them. The SOAP services can run on a
server different from the machine Cocoon runs on, as can obviously the
clients. The whole shebang has been in production for about a year or so
and proved to be maintainable and reliable.
I will eventually convert these SOAP services into Avalon blocks, since
Avalon is obviously a more robust and feature-rich platform than my
quick hack. But there's a couple of functionalities that I need for
that:
- a SOAP communication layer for Avalon/Phoenix
- an HTTP layer on top of the SOAP layer, so my programmatic clients
only need to know HTTP
- JMX or another management concept, so I can see how that ties in with
the SOAP stuff
- XML services like those in Cocoon, but more modularized
As we're running a production system under Avalon/Phoenix, I'm not too
keen on changing the basic architecture too frequently, so I'll wait for
a clearer picture on the above issues and meanwhile let my SOAP
installation do its thing.
Ulrich
--
Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Systementwicklung
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Re: phoenix use question with catalina/bay & cocoon
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@yahoo.com>.
Peter Royal wrote:
> I looked at the Bay wrapper for Catalina, but I don't see any easy way
> to pass information into webapps. I'm thinking maybe the parent
> ComponentManager support that was added to Cocoon might be what I'm
> looking for? But it seems to just allow you to define a class to be
> instantiated. I'm not quite sure how it can "reach out" into the
> phoenix world that contains it.
I've not really finished it yet. When it is it should expose an
interface that would allow blocks to depend on it and add hosts and
webapps/war files. It should be quite good.
It still won't help in your communication with Coocoon using RMI.
Cocoon is not a block in it's own right *yet*. I guess if it was it
would also solve your problem. I've talked to Berin about this and he
thinks that it could, in the future, be a block as well as a WAR file
deployable app.
Regards,
- Paul H
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