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Posted to general@xml.apache.org by Sc...@lotus.com on 2001/07/13 21:02:27 UTC
-1 to Anakia
Hi Kids. I hate to rain on the parade, but I think it would look pretty
funny to use Anakia instead of XSLT for the Xalan project. Further, I
think the use of JDOM in Anakia is moving the opposite direction of a high
performance for dynamic transformations.
I don't usually take a non-moveable stand on things, but at least the Xalan
project will be using Anakia over my dead, bloodied body. Nor do I think
the rest of apache should adapt it... I've had arguments Jon before about
why I think XSLT & JAXP 1.1 is better.
If someone pulls out the ". Anakia seems to perform much faster than
Xalan's XSL processor at creating pages. (23 pages are generated in 7-8
seconds on a PIII 500mhz running Win98 and JDK 1.3 with client Hotspot. A
similar system using Ant's <style> task took 14-15 seconds -- nearly a 2x
speed improvement.) " I'll scream. Like all benchmarks, claims are easily
made, but details sometimes not so fourth coming. And, no, I don't want to
get into a benchmark war with these guys. I will say the problems with
Stylebook have very little to do with XSLT or Xalan... it is much more a
factor of the stylebook code itself (and sometimes how it is using Xalan
and the DOM).
I would simply ask you all to double-check your logic about adapting
Anakia, and whether or not it's really the direction you want to go.
BTW, the Anakia page is at: http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/anakia.html.
I obviously have very strong objections to it's claims.
-1.
-scott
"Ted Leung"
<twleung@saur To: <ge...@xml.apache.org>
ia.com> cc: (bcc: Scott Boag/CAM/Lotus)
Subject: Re: [RFC] Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
07/12/01
12:23 PM
Please
respond to
general
The plan for the site has always been to use C2 when it stabilized.
We are getting closer and closer to that, right Dims? I don't know
anything
about Anakia, but if it is using XML as input, then it seems that
stylesheet
magic could be used to go between C2 and Anakia and InDesign.
If we could get off of stylebook and onto C2 I'd be very happy.
Ted
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason van Zyl" <jv...@apache.org>
To: <ge...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: [RFC] Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
On 7/12/01 9:12 AM, "Sam Ruby" <ru...@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>>
>> Is there any way you could use Stylebook? Site generation for
xml.apache.org
>> is already in a bit
>> of mess. Take a look at the xml-site module in CVS. Using anakia now
will
>> increase the problems
>> later when all of us decide to revamp the system for generating the
>> xml.apache.org site.
>
> Aren't we planning on replacing stylebook "real soon now"?
I sent a message Davanum about Anakia. I would like to use Anakia
because it's working well at Jakarta and I think it's going to
be used for the main apache site.
I am also working on an XML import filter for Adobe's InDesign which
will allow me to take an Anakia formatted document and produce
professional grade PDFs for all the apache documentation. I'm using
InDesign to layout a book I'm working on so I figured I'd kill a
few birds. This will take a while but that¹s the eventual goal.
I really don't want to use Stylebook, it's slow and what it produces
right now must account for half the traffic on apache with all those
itty bitty images :-)
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
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Re: -1 to Anakia
Posted by Robert Koberg <ro...@koberg.com>.
I just reread and think I understand what you meant.
Are you asking if this method will allow for content that already exists and
will not ever go into XML to be transformed?
Sure, why not. You could do something like this at the page level in the
"site-config":
<page transform="false" document="blah.tar.gz"/>
or perhaps it is a different element:
<static-page>
<whatever/>
</static-page>
Just insert something like the above into the config file in the appropriate
place in it's hierarchy and then you can manage links like I explained
before.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Clark" <an...@apache.org>
To: <ge...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: -1 to Anakia
> Robert Koberg wrote:
> > This is crazy, everything can be done with xalan. I voluenteer
> > to help if needed. Here is how I do it:
> > [...]
>
> This sounds simple and great. Almost too good to be true... ;)
> Can you manage documents of different types? links between
> documents of different types? All of which is pretty essential
> to our documentation.
>
> --
> Andy Clark * IBM, TRL - Japan * andyc@apache.org
>
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>
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Re: -1 to Anakia
Posted by Robert Koberg <ro...@koberg.com>.
Are you asking if you can output any kind of plain text file? If so, then
yes. With <xsl:output method="text"/> you can structure anything you want.
It does not have to be XML or HTML. You could transform your XML into java
code to compile your xml, if you wanted.
The way I manage linking is with the "site-config" structure. The elements
are nested just like folders and pages they intend to represent. For
example:
<folder name="boo">
<folder name="foo">
<page id="435345">
<content id="1234" name="doo.xml"/>
</page>
</folder>
</folder>
By finding the page and then the ancestor folder names you get the path to
the page.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Clark" <an...@apache.org>
To: <ge...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: -1 to Anakia
> Robert Koberg wrote:
> > This is crazy, everything can be done with xalan. I voluenteer
> > to help if needed. Here is how I do it:
> > [...]
>
> This sounds simple and great. Almost too good to be true... ;)
> Can you manage documents of different types? links between
> documents of different types? All of which is pretty essential
> to our documentation.
>
> --
> Andy Clark * IBM, TRL - Japan * andyc@apache.org
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
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>
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Re: -1 to Anakia
Posted by Andy Clark <an...@apache.org>.
Robert Koberg wrote:
> This is crazy, everything can be done with xalan. I voluenteer
> to help if needed. Here is how I do it:
> [...]
This sounds simple and great. Almost too good to be true... ;)
Can you manage documents of different types? links between
documents of different types? All of which is pretty essential
to our documentation.
--
Andy Clark * IBM, TRL - Japan * andyc@apache.org
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Re: -1 to Anakia
Posted by Robert Koberg <ro...@koberg.com>.
This is crazy, everything can be done with xalan. I voluenteer to help if
needed. Here is how I do it:
I have pregenerated large sites with xalan (redirect extension) and haven't
really had need to take notice of the time it took. Have a
'site-config.xml' that describes the folder structure and the pages inside
along with any other info that should not be included in the (pure,
licenseable, etc) CONTENT. This config file (actually in a database and
maintained with a gui by editors/designers & producers) can be used for a
number of things and one of those is to pre-generate the html using xsl and
xml. It takes so little time that I don't even notice and it is done with
(docbook) content heavy sites. It's simple!
Here is something similar to a recent post to the XSL list that illustrates
the method (there is more to it, namely the page wrapper wrapping all the
content for things like the nav - which is built from the config):
_______________________________
config.xml -- some sample XML
-----------------------
<folder name="" id="root">
<page id="index_en_us">
<xml filref="boo_en_us.xml"/>
</page>
<page id="index_en_uk">
<xml filref="boo_en_us.xml"/>
</page>
<page id="index_es_la">>
<xml filref="boo_en_us.xml"/>
</page>
<folder name="docs" id="etc...>
<folder name="doc1">
etc...
</folder>
</folder
</folder>
--------------------------------------------------
wrapper.xsl -- transform the above XML with the below XSL:
<xsl:template match="//*">
<xsl:for-each select="page">
<xsl:apply-templates />
</xsl:for-each>
</xsl:template>
<xsl:template match="page">
<xsl:variable name="path">
<xsl:call-template
name="get-path-to-file-from-ancestor-folder-names-or-however">
<xsl:with-param name="page-id" select="@page-id"/>
</xsl:call-template>
</xsl:variable>
<!-- xalan redirect to file concat($path,@id,'.html') or something like
that -->
<xsl:apply-templates select="document(concat($path,xsml/@fileref)"/>
<!-- end redirect -->
</xsl:template>
<xsl:template match="root-of-pulled-page">
<html>
blah blah
</html>
</xsl:template>
--------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: <Sc...@lotus.com>
To: <ge...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 12:02 PM
Subject: -1 to Anakia
>
> Hi Kids. I hate to rain on the parade, but I think it would look pretty
> funny to use Anakia instead of XSLT for the Xalan project. Further, I
> think the use of JDOM in Anakia is moving the opposite direction of a high
> performance for dynamic transformations.
>
> I don't usually take a non-moveable stand on things, but at least the
Xalan
> project will be using Anakia over my dead, bloodied body. Nor do I think
> the rest of apache should adapt it... I've had arguments Jon before about
> why I think XSLT & JAXP 1.1 is better.
>
> If someone pulls out the ". Anakia seems to perform much faster than
> Xalan's XSL processor at creating pages. (23 pages are generated in 7-8
> seconds on a PIII 500mhz running Win98 and JDK 1.3 with client Hotspot. A
> similar system using Ant's <style> task took 14-15 seconds -- nearly a 2x
> speed improvement.) " I'll scream. Like all benchmarks, claims are easily
> made, but details sometimes not so fourth coming. And, no, I don't want
to
> get into a benchmark war with these guys. I will say the problems with
> Stylebook have very little to do with XSLT or Xalan... it is much more a
> factor of the stylebook code itself (and sometimes how it is using Xalan
> and the DOM).
>
> I would simply ask you all to double-check your logic about adapting
> Anakia, and whether or not it's really the direction you want to go.
>
> BTW, the Anakia page is at:
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/anakia.html.
> I obviously have very strong objections to it's claims.
>
> -1.
>
> -scott
>
>
>
>
>
> "Ted Leung"
> <twleung@saur To: <ge...@xml.apache.org>
> ia.com> cc: (bcc: Scott
Boag/CAM/Lotus)
> Subject: Re: [RFC] Re: Helma
XML-RPC @ Jakarta
> 07/12/01
> 12:23 PM
> Please
> respond to
> general
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The plan for the site has always been to use C2 when it stabilized.
>
> We are getting closer and closer to that, right Dims? I don't know
> anything
> about Anakia, but if it is using XML as input, then it seems that
> stylesheet
> magic could be used to go between C2 and Anakia and InDesign.
>
> If we could get off of stylebook and onto C2 I'd be very happy.
>
> Ted
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason van Zyl" <jv...@apache.org>
> To: <ge...@xml.apache.org>
> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 7:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [RFC] Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
>
>
> On 7/12/01 9:12 AM, "Sam Ruby" <ru...@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>
> > Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> >>
> >> Is there any way you could use Stylebook? Site generation for
> xml.apache.org
> >> is already in a bit
> >> of mess. Take a look at the xml-site module in CVS. Using anakia now
> will
> >> increase the problems
> >> later when all of us decide to revamp the system for generating the
> >> xml.apache.org site.
> >
> > Aren't we planning on replacing stylebook "real soon now"?
>
> I sent a message Davanum about Anakia. I would like to use Anakia
> because it's working well at Jakarta and I think it's going to
> be used for the main apache site.
>
> I am also working on an XML import filter for Adobe's InDesign which
> will allow me to take an Anakia formatted document and produce
> professional grade PDFs for all the apache documentation. I'm using
> InDesign to layout a book I'm working on so I figured I'd kill a
> few birds. This will take a while but that¹s the eventual goal.
>
> I really don't want to use Stylebook, it's slow and what it produces
> right now must account for half the traffic on apache with all those
> itty bitty images :-)
>
> > - Sam Ruby
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
>
> --
>
> jvz.
>
> Jason van Zyl
>
> http://tambora.zenplex.org
> http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
> http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
> http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
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Re: -1 to Anakia
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@apache.org>.
On 7/13/01 3:02 PM, "Scott_Boag@lotus.com" <Sc...@lotus.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Kids. I hate to rain on the parade, but I think it would look pretty
> funny to use Anakia instead of XSLT for the Xalan project. Further, I
> think the use of JDOM in Anakia is moving the opposite direction of a high
> performance for dynamic transformations.
I never suggested that all the xml.apache.org projects use Anakia. I simply
wanted the option of using the tool that I'm accustomed to.
> I don't usually take a non-moveable stand on things, but at least the Xalan
> project will be using Anakia over my dead, bloodied body. Nor do I think
> the rest of apache should adapt it... I've had arguments Jon before about
> why I think XSLT & JAXP 1.1 is better.
Use what you're comfortable. I want to use Anakia, use whatever you wish.
> If someone pulls out the ". Anakia seems to perform much faster than
> Xalan's XSL processor at creating pages. (23 pages are generated in 7-8
> seconds on a PIII 500mhz running Win98 and JDK 1.3 with client Hotspot. A
> similar system using Ant's <style> task took 14-15 seconds -- nearly a 2x
> speed improvement.) " I'll scream. Like all benchmarks, claims are easily
> made, but details sometimes not so fourth coming. And, no, I don't want to
> get into a benchmark war with these guys. I will say the problems with
> Stylebook have very little to do with XSLT or Xalan... it is much more a
> factor of the stylebook code itself (and sometimes how it is using Xalan
> and the DOM).
I have never tried to benchmark anakia against C2, or stylebook. I converted
all the Turbine and Velocity documentation to Stylebook and used it for more
than a few months. It did the job but it was a little slow, and I'm sure
this an implementation detail and nothing to do with xalan. I've never
knocked xalan.
We were working intensely on velocity at the time Jon wanted to try
using velocity macros for making HTML. It uses velocity so of course I like
it, and I have to admit I'm not at all fond of XSLT so for me it was a
natural choice. I admit it's limited but it did the job quite well.
> I would simply ask you all to double-check your logic about adapting
> Anakia, and whether or not it's really the direction you want to go.
>
> BTW, the Anakia page is at: http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/anakia.html.
> I obviously have very strong objections to it's claims.
Bottom line is that I think it should be up to the project. But I think it
would be fun to benchmark C2 against Anakia at producing pages. I'm working
on a compiler for Velocity (using BCEL, same tool in Xalan I believe) and we
plan to do more work on Anakia. I'd be more than happy to produce less vague
numbers. It all boils down to a matter of preference: you probably dislike
the idea of using Anakia as much as I dislike XSLT. I don't think it matters
in the end as long as a project produces good documentation.
employed.
> -1.
>
> -scott
>
>
>
>
>
> "Ted Leung"
> <twleung@saur To: <ge...@xml.apache.org>
> ia.com> cc: (bcc: Scott Boag/CAM/Lotus)
> Subject: Re: [RFC] Re: Helma
> XML-RPC @ Jakarta
> 07/12/01
> 12:23 PM
> Please
> respond to
> general
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The plan for the site has always been to use C2 when it stabilized.
>
> We are getting closer and closer to that, right Dims? I don't know
> anything
> about Anakia, but if it is using XML as input, then it seems that
> stylesheet
> magic could be used to go between C2 and Anakia and InDesign.
>
> If we could get off of stylebook and onto C2 I'd be very happy.
>
> Ted
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason van Zyl" <jv...@apache.org>
> To: <ge...@xml.apache.org>
> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 7:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [RFC] Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
>
>
> On 7/12/01 9:12 AM, "Sam Ruby" <ru...@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>
>> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>>>
>>> Is there any way you could use Stylebook? Site generation for
> xml.apache.org
>>> is already in a bit
>>> of mess. Take a look at the xml-site module in CVS. Using anakia now
> will
>>> increase the problems
>>> later when all of us decide to revamp the system for generating the
>>> xml.apache.org site.
>>
>> Aren't we planning on replacing stylebook "real soon now"?
>
> I sent a message Davanum about Anakia. I would like to use Anakia
> because it's working well at Jakarta and I think it's going to
> be used for the main apache site.
>
> I am also working on an XML import filter for Adobe's InDesign which
> will allow me to take an Anakia formatted document and produce
> professional grade PDFs for all the apache documentation. I'm using
> InDesign to layout a book I'm working on so I figured I'd kill a
> few birds. This will take a while but that¹s the eventual goal.
>
> I really don't want to use Stylebook, it's slow and what it produces
> right now must account for half the traffic on apache with all those
> itty bitty images :-)
>
>> - Sam Ruby
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
>
> --
>
> jvz.
>
> Jason van Zyl
>
> http://tambora.zenplex.org
> http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
> http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
> http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
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Re: -1 to Anakia
Posted by cm...@yahoo.com.
On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 Scott_Boag@lotus.com wrote:
> I don't usually take a non-moveable stand on things, but at least the Xalan
> project will be using Anakia over my dead, bloodied body. Nor do I think
> the rest of apache should adapt it... I've had arguments Jon before about
> why I think XSLT & JAXP 1.1 is better.
+1 on your -1, I had the exact same position regarding tomcat - but it
seems they'll still use anakia for tomcat ( over my dead, bloodied body ).
> If someone pulls out the ". Anakia seems to perform much faster than
> Xalan's XSL processor at creating pages. (23 pages are generated in 7-8
No, they just say XSL and docbook are "too complex", and HTML is not
powerfull enough - so they had to define the DTD and a new transformation
language.
Soon we'll hear that HTTP1.1 is too compex and we'll have an attp protocol
and server.
Costin
( I just gave up on the whole issue - now I'm just trying to ignore the
whole issue )
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