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Posted to community@apache.org by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> on 2009/03/29 23:23:30 UTC
Topic-based mailing lists
Hi,
At the ApacheCon we discussed about introducing some generic
topic-based mailing lists at Apache. Currently inter-project
cooperation is a bit difficult as joining another dev@ or user@
mailing list can be a pretty overwhelming experience due to the heavy
volume of project-specific discussion. To avoid this problem we could
introduce some generic mailing lists that cover technologies or other
topics that are of interest to multiple Apache projects. Such lists
could be osgi-interest@, http-interest@, xml-interest@,
rest-interest@, jcr-interest@, build-interest@, etc. Whatever topic
where two more projects have a shared interest and believe that they
could benefit from a low volume forum where they could coordinate
their efforts and exchange experience and code.
WDYT?
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Topic-based mailing lists
Posted by jean-frederic clere <jf...@gmail.com>.
Paul Querna wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 11:23 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> At the ApacheCon we discussed about introducing some generic
>> topic-based mailing lists at Apache. Currently inter-project
>> cooperation is a bit difficult as joining another dev@ or user@
>> mailing list can be a pretty overwhelming experience due to the heavy
>> volume of project-specific discussion. To avoid this problem we could
>> introduce some generic mailing lists that cover technologies or other
>> topics that are of interest to multiple Apache projects. Such lists
>> could be osgi-interest@, http-interest@, xml-interest@,
>> rest-interest@, jcr-interest@, build-interest@, etc. Whatever topic
>> where two more projects have a shared interest and believe that they
>> could benefit from a low volume forum where they could coordinate
>> their efforts and exchange experience and code.
>>
>> WDYT?
>>
>
> I think it would end up with most threads CC;ing the relevant dev
> lists (cross posting ftw), as not everyone in the communities will
> sign up to such lists.
>
> Have there been projects who are consistently cross posting each other
> for a shared topic of interest?
May be a C projects list ;-)
>
> (if so, maybe they should look more deeply at who is in their
> community, maybe they should just be one TLP?)
Yes but we need something to "link" the communities.
Cheers
Jean-frederic
>
> -Paul
>
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Re: Topic-based mailing lists
Posted by Aidan Skinner <ai...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:55 PM, Paul Querna <pa...@querna.org> wrote:
> I think it would end up with most threads CC;ing the relevant dev
> lists (cross posting ftw), as not everyone in the communities will
> sign up to such lists.
I miss usenet. Specifically, I miss slrn scorefiles.
> Have there been projects who are consistently cross posting each other
> for a shared topic of interest?
>
> (if so, maybe they should look more deeply at who is in their
> community, maybe they should just be one TLP?)
Or maybe a commons- project or *something*, but it's probably a little
hard to tell without having an appropriate place to facilitate and
stimulate them in the first place.
I'm not convinced having seperate topic-specific silos is the way to
go, but I could see a higher volume community@ being quite productive.
Sort of like general@incubator.a.o but without the bits to the right
of the @ ;)
- Aidan
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Re: Topic-based mailing lists
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 11:55 PM, Paul Querna <pa...@querna.org> wrote:
> I think it would end up with most threads CC;ing the relevant dev
> lists (cross posting ftw), as not everyone in the communities will
> sign up to such lists.
That might happen, though currently it's already happening as list
bingo over multiple dev@ lists. With a shared list there would at
least be an authoritative place where people could be pointed for the
main line of the discussion.
As a concrete example, I recently started an effort to collect general
purpose XML utility code into a small reusable library. The related
discussion happened over dev@commons, dev@cocoon, j-dev@xerces,
tika-dev@lucene, fop-dev@xmlgraphics and commons-dev@xml, with no
clear consensus of where it really should belong.
> Have there been projects who are consistently cross posting each other
> for a shared topic of interest?
Currently this doesn't happen too much as the resulting threads
quickly get really confusing as people don't keep cc'ing all the
lists. I tried to do this every now and then, but nowadays I mostly
use occasions like the ApacheCon where it's easier to bring related
people together.
Without shared forums most shared initiatives between projects rely on
having individual "bridge" developers who are actively participating
in all the related projects. That works to some degree (the value of
the "bridge" people is usually quickly recognized by making them ASF
members :-), but unfortunately such individuals aren't too common and
their time isn't always available. I'm looking for ways to lower the
bar for projects to cooperate.
> (if so, maybe they should look more deeply at who is in their
> community, maybe they should just be one TLP?)
That works for some cases, for example the general@lucene list serves
such a purpose for Lucene projects. But in many cases the related
projects are not as closely related.
For example, the currently incubating Sling project is related to
projects like Jackrabbit, Felix and CouchDB through technologies like
JCR, OSGi and JSON. None of these relationships really warrant a
shared TLP, but all of them are still strong enough to offer some
interesting avenues for cooperation.
Each of the above-mentioned technologies are also areas where we'd
easily have at least a handful of Apache projects that could benefit
from a shared forum that's not weighed down by the everyday issues of
any specific project.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Topic-based mailing lists
Posted by Paul Querna <pa...@querna.org>.
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 11:23 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> At the ApacheCon we discussed about introducing some generic
> topic-based mailing lists at Apache. Currently inter-project
> cooperation is a bit difficult as joining another dev@ or user@
> mailing list can be a pretty overwhelming experience due to the heavy
> volume of project-specific discussion. To avoid this problem we could
> introduce some generic mailing lists that cover technologies or other
> topics that are of interest to multiple Apache projects. Such lists
> could be osgi-interest@, http-interest@, xml-interest@,
> rest-interest@, jcr-interest@, build-interest@, etc. Whatever topic
> where two more projects have a shared interest and believe that they
> could benefit from a low volume forum where they could coordinate
> their efforts and exchange experience and code.
>
> WDYT?
>
I think it would end up with most threads CC;ing the relevant dev
lists (cross posting ftw), as not everyone in the communities will
sign up to such lists.
Have there been projects who are consistently cross posting each other
for a shared topic of interest?
(if so, maybe they should look more deeply at who is in their
community, maybe they should just be one TLP?)
-Paul
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Re: Topic-based mailing lists
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <rd...@apache.org>.
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Rich Bowen wrote:
>
> On Mar 29, 2009, at 17:23, Jukka Zitting wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> At the ApacheCon we discussed about introducing some generic
>> topic-based mailing lists at Apache. Currently inter-project
>> cooperation is a bit difficult as joining another dev@ or user@
>> mailing list can be a pretty overwhelming experience due to the heavy
>> volume of project-specific discussion. To avoid this problem we could
>> introduce some generic mailing lists that cover technologies or other
>> topics that are of interest to multiple Apache projects. Such lists
>> could be osgi-interest@, http-interest@, xml-interest@,
>> rest-interest@, jcr-interest@, build-interest@, etc. Whatever topic
>> where two more projects have a shared interest and believe that they
>> could benefit from a low volume forum where they could coordinate
>> their efforts and exchange experience and code.
>>
>> WDYT?
the disadvantage of the more finely-grained approach we have taken to
project management is that now there is less productive intercourse
between projects outside ApacheCon. one of the most useful things about
the OSGi BOF was that it appeared that lots of people had cool toys but
no one knew about them or that there was interest in them outside
particular communities.
> I think "try it and see". File a ticket, get a list made, and see if it
> survives or if it dies. If it survives, great, it was useful. If it
> dies, well, no great effort was expended in making the list.
+1
- - robert
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Re: Topic-based mailing lists
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On Mar 29, 2009, at 17:23, Jukka Zitting wrote:
> Hi,
>
> At the ApacheCon we discussed about introducing some generic
> topic-based mailing lists at Apache. Currently inter-project
> cooperation is a bit difficult as joining another dev@ or user@
> mailing list can be a pretty overwhelming experience due to the heavy
> volume of project-specific discussion. To avoid this problem we could
> introduce some generic mailing lists that cover technologies or other
> topics that are of interest to multiple Apache projects. Such lists
> could be osgi-interest@, http-interest@, xml-interest@,
> rest-interest@, jcr-interest@, build-interest@, etc. Whatever topic
> where two more projects have a shared interest and believe that they
> could benefit from a low volume forum where they could coordinate
> their efforts and exchange experience and code.
>
> WDYT?
I think "try it and see". File a ticket, get a list made, and see if
it survives or if it dies. If it survives, great, it was useful. If it
dies, well, no great effort was expended in making the list.
--
A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate,
because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he
can understand.
Bertrand Russell
Themes [WAS Re: Topic-based mailing lists]
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <rd...@apache.org>.
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Hash: SHA1
Jukka Zitting wrote:
> Hi,
>
> At the ApacheCon we discussed about introducing some generic
> topic-based mailing lists at Apache. Currently inter-project
> cooperation is a bit difficult as joining another dev@ or user@
> mailing list can be a pretty overwhelming experience due to the heavy
> volume of project-specific discussion. To avoid this problem we could
> introduce some generic mailing lists that cover technologies or other
> topics that are of interest to multiple Apache projects. Such lists
> could be osgi-interest@, http-interest@, xml-interest@,
> rest-interest@, jcr-interest@, build-interest@, etc. Whatever topic
> where two more projects have a shared interest and believe that they
> could benefit from a low volume forum where they could coordinate
> their efforts and exchange experience and code.
>
> WDYT?
a good start :-)
i think these issues are definitely in the air ATM, so i would like to
hijack this thread to start to talk about a related issue
i think we need to start thinking about how apache - as an organisation
- - can re-invent the social integration that jakarta did so well (see
http://www.jroller.com/robertburrelldonkin/entry/apache_the_foundation_needs_themes).
though mailing lists are a reasonable start, documentation will be
needed to write up what happens on list and to share presentations and
other material.
it's now hard for people to find which projects have interesting code
related to a topic which doesn't directly map to a particular top level
project. so, a directory role is also needed.
i would like to see a new organisational unit introduced to focus
integration efforts (both social and developmental) that cross-cut
project boundaries. i think a 'theme' would be a good name.
i see this as a way to meet an emerging grassroots need. for example,
lots of projects are now starting to take OSGi tooling seriously. felix
is the emerging hub but - as a conventional project - it is not really
the right long term organisational vehicle.
i also see this as a way to allow apache to push broader strategy. for
example, starting a Cloud Computing theme would be a way to crystalise
and evangelise efforts in this area which are compatible with the
foundation's aims.
here's my current thinking (in organisational terms):
1. themes would be grassroots, self organised committees like projects
with a management committee and committers, and not top down appointed
committees (like legal, infra)
2. unlike projects they would not be allowed to host code or make
releases. they would be allowed the other infrastructure of a project
(versioned documentation, a website, mailing lists, issue tracking, wiki's).
opinions?
- - robert
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Re: Topic-based mailing lists
Posted by jean-frederic clere <jf...@gmail.com>.
Jukka Zitting wrote:
> Hi,
>
> At the ApacheCon we discussed about introducing some generic
> topic-based mailing lists at Apache. Currently inter-project
> cooperation is a bit difficult as joining another dev@ or user@
> mailing list can be a pretty overwhelming experience due to the heavy
> volume of project-specific discussion. To avoid this problem we could
> introduce some generic mailing lists that cover technologies or other
> topics that are of interest to multiple Apache projects. Such lists
> could be osgi-interest@, http-interest@,
> xml-interest@,
> rest-interest@, jcr-interest@, build-interest@, etc.
That makes a lot of sense in all the JAVA project for example tomcat,
httpclient and mina (and may be others I am not familar with) are doing
http connector/protocol in JAVA. My idea would be to use that to find
common code and somehow avoid duplication.
Cheers
Jean-Frederic
> Whatever topic
> where two more projects have a shared interest and believe that they
> could benefit from a low volume forum where they could coordinate
> their efforts and exchange experience and code.
>
> WDYT?
>
> BR,
>
> Jukka Zitting
>
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Re: Topic-based mailing lists
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:25 AM, Daniel F. Savarese <df...@savarese.org> wrote:
> To support both inter-project cooperation and more general
> cross-project committer software development discussions, I would
> recommend starting with a single general software development discussion
> list for committers.
At the ApacheCon we discussed using this currently rather quiet
community@ list for such a purpose, but there were fears that too big
an audience would just reduce the signal/noise ratio of the list for
everyone.
But yeah, if people here won't complain about seeing more high-level
technical discussions about specific technologies, then I wouldn't
mind following your idea of branching off common topics to separate
lists only when the related traffic becomes too big for a generic list
like this.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Topic-based mailing lists
Posted by Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>.
Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> J Aaron Farr wrote:
>> On Tue 31 Mar 2009 21:34, Henri Yandell <hy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Use community@ - if people get annoyed they'll voice that and the
>>> correct context list can be created. Community gets used so rarely
>>> that I don't have a filter for it, so there's nothing to complain
>>> about yet and you're making make work.
>> +1 for using community@
>>
>> general@jakarta used to be like that. Some people loved it. Some
>> people didn't. Personally, I think we as a foundation have lost
>> "something" as Jakarta has disbanded. A lively general discussion list
>> is useful. And members@ is too closed.
>
> +1
>
> IMHO there's a definitely feeling in the air that we lost - as well as
> gained - when jakarta was disbanded, and that now's the time to start
> doing something about it.
+1
--
Serge Knystautas
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com
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Re: Topic-based mailing lists
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <rd...@apache.org>.
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J Aaron Farr wrote:
> On Tue 31 Mar 2009 21:34, Henri Yandell <hy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Use community@ - if people get annoyed they'll voice that and the
>> correct context list can be created. Community gets used so rarely
>> that I don't have a filter for it, so there's nothing to complain
>> about yet and you're making make work.
>
> +1 for using community@
>
> general@jakarta used to be like that. Some people loved it. Some
> people didn't. Personally, I think we as a foundation have lost
> "something" as Jakarta has disbanded. A lively general discussion list
> is useful. And members@ is too closed.
+1
IMHO there's a definitely feeling in the air that we lost - as well as
gained - when jakarta was disbanded, and that now's the time to start
doing something about it.
it didn't make sense to devote effort to this until the new way was
bedded in. the incubator is now working ok (we need to complete the
documentation but i talked to a few people at apachecon, and we'll get
that done over the next few months).
i'm going to formally introduce this idea over on members in a few days,
but the idea i kicked around at ApacheCon was introducing a new
organisational unit ("a theme" - projects on the right and themes on the
left). the aim would be to be like the non-code part of Jakarta which
worked well as a spur to the development of serverside java.
this is basically an cross cut integration project and is only allowed
to talk (documentation, mailing lists, committers, PMC as per standard
projects but no code and no releases). so, it would have to work with
other projects to achieve it's goals. themes would also use the
incubator access rule (conventional access to PMC/committership for
members/committers, others by invitation).
themes would provide the members and the board with a vehicle for long
term, strategic plans spanning many projects. the initial worked example
would be "Apache Cloud" a hub and focus for cloud related activity
especially the tooling that's required across projects.
> The trouble with a general@ list is that it's hard to build a specific
> community there. Just because there are occasional good threads about,
> say, osgi on a general@ list, why would a non-ASF committer subscribe to
> general@ instead of existing osgi specific mailing lists?
>
> So I think you have to consider your goal:
>
> If you want to create a public community for discussing a specific
> topic, then specific interest lists are appropriate, either here or
> outside the ASF, such as Google Groups.
>
> If you want to bounce ideas around other people already inside the ASF,
> then use a general list like community@. You can always move the
> discussion elsewhere if necessary.
+1
i would like to suggest that we encourage PMCs to approach the board
with requests for general lists supervised by their PMC. for example,
ATM OSGi talk is starting to converge on felix but risks - in the long
term - drowning development work there. it would make sense to encourage
felix to be able to ask the board for permission to host a general OSGi
list for apache even though that's technically out of scope for the project.
- - robert
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Re: Topic-based mailing lists
Posted by J Aaron Farr <fa...@apache.org>.
On Tue 31 Mar 2009 21:34, Henri Yandell <hy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Use community@ - if people get annoyed they'll voice that and the
> correct context list can be created. Community gets used so rarely
> that I don't have a filter for it, so there's nothing to complain
> about yet and you're making make work.
+1 for using community@
general@jakarta used to be like that. Some people loved it. Some
people didn't. Personally, I think we as a foundation have lost
"something" as Jakarta has disbanded. A lively general discussion list
is useful. And members@ is too closed.
The trouble with a general@ list is that it's hard to build a specific
community there. Just because there are occasional good threads about,
say, osgi on a general@ list, why would a non-ASF committer subscribe to
general@ instead of existing osgi specific mailing lists?
So I think you have to consider your goal:
If you want to create a public community for discussing a specific
topic, then specific interest lists are appropriate, either here or
outside the ASF, such as Google Groups.
If you want to bounce ideas around other people already inside the ASF,
then use a general list like community@. You can always move the
discussion elsewhere if necessary.
--
J Aaron Farr jadetower.com [US] +1 724-964-4515
馮傑仁 cubiclemuses.com [HK] +852 8123-7905
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Re: Topic-based mailing lists
Posted by Henri Yandell <hy...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:25 AM, Daniel F. Savarese <df...@savarese.org> wrote:
>> ...To support both inter-project cooperation and more general
>> cross-project committer software development discussions, I would
>> recommend starting with a single general software development discussion
>> list for committers. If there's enough traffic of a non-ephemeral nature
>> on a particular topic (e.g., the osgi, http, rest, etc. examples), then
>> split it off into a new mailing list....
>
> +1
>
> I suggest creating a new list for that (tech@apache.org ?) so as to
> avoid people unsubscribing from this community@apache.org list if it
> becomes too busy.
>
> And require people to use [tags] in subject lines for filtering.
The answer is pretty standard.
Use community@ - if people get annoyed they'll voice that and the
correct context list can be created. Community gets used so rarely
that I don't have a filter for it, so there's nothing to complain
about yet and you're making make work.
The XML stuff could have been discussed here for example with a note
sent out to the relevant lists to make sure they were subscribed.
Hen
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Re: Topic-based mailing lists
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:25 AM, Daniel F. Savarese <df...@savarese.org> wrote:
> ...To support both inter-project cooperation and more general
> cross-project committer software development discussions, I would
> recommend starting with a single general software development discussion
> list for committers. If there's enough traffic of a non-ephemeral nature
> on a particular topic (e.g., the osgi, http, rest, etc. examples), then
> split it off into a new mailing list....
+1
I suggest creating a new list for that (tech@apache.org ?) so as to
avoid people unsubscribing from this community@apache.org list if it
becomes too busy.
And require people to use [tags] in subject lines for filtering.
-Bertrand
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