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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> on 2002/12/05 20:17:17 UTC
Release mirroring - let's do the release right
I'm sending this mail to the projects I know, some of which are going to
make a release soon, so that it's done already with the new mirroring
guidelines.
As you can see on
http://www.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/daily.html.
Tomcat seems to have more downloads thean HTTPD. Truth is that it's
simply not mirrored.
The infrastructure@ mailing list has come up with guidelines about
mirroring here:
http://www.apache.org/dev/mirrors.html
Stefan Bodewig has already done it for Ant, and he has detailed the
steps here:
http://cvs.apache.org/~bodewig/mirror.html
I suggest the release guys to consider doing the next release following
the above guidelines, and thank the infrastructure team and Stefan for
the effort taken in being the first and in making the guide :-)
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: Release mirroring - let's do the release right
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> I suggest the release guys to consider doing the next release following
> the above guidelines, and thank the infrastructure team and Stefan for
> the effort taken in being the first and in making the guide :-)
Done for Forrest - please cross-check. I am now using the recommended
symlinks using -current- instead of an explicit version number (those
are inside the source/binaries dirs)
I will remove the http://xml.apache.org/forrest/dist/ link from our
homepage and let it point to http://www.apache.org/dist/xml/forrest/
instead.
Vadim, if you are reading, I assume this will eventually mean you'll
need to change your log aggregator (not that we are already that popular
though ;-)
Pier, I assume I've set up everything so that we fit better into the
mirroring strategy - could you change the nagoya rsync script accordingly?
Once the closer.cgi URI namespace strategy has been decided and Forrest
has been distributed across the mirrors, I'll make sure you'll be able
to download from the geographically closest server.
Cheers,
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://radio.weblogs.com/0103539/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
RE: Release mirroring - let's do the release right
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Further, if Noel wants to take on the work necessary to get the
> distribution done properly and that delays his other work... so
> be it. It is Noel's time, not JAMES' time.
I took the time, AND I got the other James work done. I got as far on the
new mirroring process as I could from the available documents. The work is
in ~noel/mirror-test on icarus. I sent e-mail to infrastructure and to the
gentleman from Commons who had volunteered to act as backup, but I haven't
gotten a reply regarding what more needs to be done to hook into the
download scripts (unless they are in the 2500 e-mails I just downloaded).
This past week I was off-line due to helping my mother move. Loaded a 24'
truck and am half-way through a 1200 mile drive, with limited time for
e-mail, but should be back online on Monday. I'm not pleased at the tone
this list has taken in just a few days. Please calm down. We'll get this
done.
--- Noel
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RE: Release mirroring - let's do the release right
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> I assume, from re-reading this whole thread, that Noel is primed with the
> knowedge and ready to implement it for the release by now.
Yes, I volunteered to do it, and I did what I could figure out. In fact,
check the dates in my directory, and you'll see that I did it all two weeks
ago (with a minor path correction a week ago). As far as I know, I have the
structure and the XML right, but it should be checked. I can't make it
"live" because I don't have access to daedalus, so look at
~noel/mirror-test. What I don't know is what's missing, e.g., how to get
into the download scripts. I sent some e-mails asking, but I either haven't
gotten a reply, or they are in the 2500 I just downloaded.
Sorry to be off-line, but I did let people know. Peter certainly knew that
I was off-line in Philadelphia helping my mother to move. I still have
another 600 miles to go, but you can imagine my reaction when I was finally
able to check my mail, and found all of THIS going on.
--- Noel
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RE: Release mirroring - let's do the release right
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
I assume, from re-reading this whole thread, that Noel is primed with the
knowedge and ready to implement it for the release by now.
I think the outcome of our "debate" was that Noel was going to press ahead
anyway, on the basis that it doesn't require a vote, no vote was called for,
and this won't impact the rest of the project in any way.
Noel?
d.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Stein [mailto:gstein@apache.org]
> Sent: 18 December 2002 20:41
> To: James Developers List
> Subject: Re: Release mirroring - let's do the release right
>
>
> In article <3D...@apache.org>, "Nicola Ken Barozzi"
> <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Peter M. Goldstein wrote:
> > [...]
> >> The legalese argument simply doesn't apply (there is exactly one
> >> project that currently follows these guidelines, and notification
> >> didn't come from the ASF but rather from a concerned contributor).
> >
> > Bandwidth is not free. We are running on donated bandwidth. You should
> > be concerned too IMO, that Apache resources are not used badly and
> > unnecessarily.
>
> Exactly. To some extent, it is starting to become a requirement that all
> ASF projects follow some guidelines so that they can be mirrored
> properly. No requirement yet, but in six months? I would see it happening
> once the majority are on board and only the folks that *aren't* doing it
> are sticking out like sore thumbs.
>
> If somebody wants to take the time to do it right, then great. It simply
> means that you'll be on board that much sooner.
>
> >...
> >> So, while I may be in danger of beating a dead horse, I veto this with
> >> a -1.
>
> You are *VOTING* with a -1. You CANNOT veto this.
>
> Vetoes are *only* for technical reasons applying to the code. You cannot
> veto procedural items.
>
> Further, if Noel wants to take on the work necessary to get the
> distribution done properly and that delays his other work... so be it. It
> is Noel's time, not JAMES' time. If somebody wants to cover for the
> slippage because Noel is doing something that interests him some more,
> then they are free to do it. But for stuff like this, the JAMES project
> cannot mandate that a person does <this> or <that>.
>
> If a majority of the votes go against the guidelines, then fine. But it
> takes a majority to do so; vetoes cannot stop it alone.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> --
> gstein@apache.org ... ASF Chairman ... http://www.apache.org/
>
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Re: Release mirroring - let's do the release right
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@apache.org>.
In article <3D...@apache.org>, "Nicola Ken Barozzi"
<ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> Peter M. Goldstein wrote:
> [...]
>> The legalese argument simply doesn't apply (there is exactly one
>> project that currently follows these guidelines, and notification
>> didn't come from the ASF but rather from a concerned contributor).
>
> Bandwidth is not free. We are running on donated bandwidth. You should
> be concerned too IMO, that Apache resources are not used badly and
> unnecessarily.
Exactly. To some extent, it is starting to become a requirement that all
ASF projects follow some guidelines so that they can be mirrored
properly. No requirement yet, but in six months? I would see it happening
once the majority are on board and only the folks that *aren't* doing it
are sticking out like sore thumbs.
If somebody wants to take the time to do it right, then great. It simply
means that you'll be on board that much sooner.
>...
>> So, while I may be in danger of beating a dead horse, I veto this with
>> a -1.
You are *VOTING* with a -1. You CANNOT veto this.
Vetoes are *only* for technical reasons applying to the code. You cannot
veto procedural items.
Further, if Noel wants to take on the work necessary to get the
distribution done properly and that delays his other work... so be it. It
is Noel's time, not JAMES' time. If somebody wants to cover for the
slippage because Noel is doing something that interests him some more,
then they are free to do it. But for stuff like this, the JAMES project
cannot mandate that a person does <this> or <that>.
If a majority of the votes go against the guidelines, then fine. But it
takes a majority to do so; vetoes cannot stop it alone.
Cheers,
-g
--
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Re: Release mirroring - let's do the release right
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Peter M. Goldstein wrote:
[...]
> The legalese argument simply doesn't apply (there is exactly one project
> that currently follows these guidelines, and notification didn't come
> from the ASF but rather from a concerned contributor).
Bandwidth is not free. We are running on donated bandwidth. You should
be concerned too IMO, that Apache resources are not used badly and
unnecessarily.
And BTW, I have done releases too, and IMHO this task is not that
difficult. Over at Forrest it has been already done in the meantime.
> So, while I may be in danger of beating a dead horse, I veto this with a
> -1.
I stated my opinion freely.
You're equally free to decide.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: Release mirroring - let's do the release right
Posted by Darrell DeBoer <da...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2002 06:24, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Peter,
>
> As far as I can see, WHEN we do the release, it is largely a matter of AT
> THAT TIME organizing the directory structure, copying the subtree into the
> correct place on daedelus, and having fixed up one XML file. I don't need
> to spend much time on it now, but I really don't see any reason not to do
> it AT THAT TIME.
>
> It really just doesn't seem that the effort is worth the argument. What I
> suspect that you are really responding to is the lack of effort that has
> been contributed in other areas, and your desire to finally see v2.1 put to
> bed.
>
> I do concur with you that all other aspects of the release need to be
> addressed first. But when it comes to copying the files into the right
> places, I don't believe that this new request from the ASF is an issue.
> One way or another, we still have to setup the release directory structure.
> The only major change is the download page.
>
> I suspect that we would quite honestly spend more time arguing about this
> than doing it. So let's not even worry about it until we're ready to make
> the release directory. Its not worth the expenditure in energy or emotion.
>
> --- Noel
+1
(Word count kept short to minimise energy expenditure).
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Daz
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RE: Release mirroring - let's do the release right
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Peter,
As far as I can see, WHEN we do the release, it is largely a matter of AT
THAT TIME organizing the directory structure, copying the subtree into the
correct place on daedelus, and having fixed up one XML file. I don't need
to spend much time on it now, but I really don't see any reason not to do it
AT THAT TIME.
It really just doesn't seem that the effort is worth the argument. What I
suspect that you are really responding to is the lack of effort that has
been contributed in other areas, and your desire to finally see v2.1 put to
bed.
I do concur with you that all other aspects of the release need to be
addressed first. But when it comes to copying the files into the right
places, I don't believe that this new request from the ASF is an issue. One
way or another, we still have to setup the release directory structure. The
only major change is the download page.
I suspect that we would quite honestly spend more time arguing about this
than doing it. So let's not even worry about it until we're ready to make
the release directory. Its not worth the expenditure in energy or emotion.
--- Noel
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RE: Release mirroring - let's do the release right
Posted by "Peter M. Goldstein" <pe...@yahoo.com>.
Noel,
> When we actually have to copy the files over to do the release, I
think
> that
> we can do this. I really don't see it as a problem. I'm looking at
the
> XML
> document now, and will try to work with it.
>
> Our downloads don't appear to be a significant resource drain by
> themselves,
> but the language on http://www.apache.org/dev/mirrors.html implies
that
> this
> is a priority for the ASF: "Any project willing to use the ASF
> infrastructure to distribute source, binary and documentation builds
> archive
> must follow the following guidelines."
>
> If folks want, I'll take the lead responsibility for getting this page
> done.
> If I run into problems (daedelus access), I'll let you know.
And this is exactly what I don't want.
You have already signed up to manage another aspect of the release
process (most notably compiling a list of outlets and notifying them of
James' existence). How will you taking on this responsibility affect
that one? It will delay it of course. And as I think the former is
much more important than the latter (as you mention above, we're not a
substantial drain on resources), I think this is a bad call.
The legalese argument simply doesn't apply (there is exactly one project
that currently follows these guidelines, and notification didn't come
from the ASF but rather from a concerned contributor).
So, while I may be in danger of beating a dead horse, I veto this with a
-1.
--Peter
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RE: Release mirroring - let's do the release right
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Peter,
When we actually have to copy the files over to do the release, I think that
we can do this. I really don't see it as a problem. I'm looking at the XML
document now, and will try to work with it.
Our downloads don't appear to be a significant resource drain by themselves,
but the language on http://www.apache.org/dev/mirrors.html implies that this
is a priority for the ASF: "Any project willing to use the ASF
infrastructure to distribute source, binary and documentation builds archive
must follow the following guidelines."
If folks want, I'll take the lead responsibility for getting this page done.
If I run into problems (daedelus access), I'll let you know.
--- Noel
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RE: Release mirroring - let's do the release right
Posted by "Peter M. Goldstein" <pe...@yahoo.com>.
Danny,
> > > I suggest the release guys to consider doing the next release
> > following
> > > the above guidelines, and thank the infrastructure team and Stefan
for
> > > the effort taken in being the first and in making the guide :-)
>
> I didn't see this message, FWIW I'm +1 and if you're going to veto
this
> I'd very much like to know why, beyond "additional required effort".
I admit my last message was a tad terse, but I think the basic argument
holds.
To put it mildly, there is a lot that goes into a release. Some of this
(i.e. documentation, marketing) has largely been skipped in previous
releases. That's not happening this time, which in the long run will be
a good thing for James. These things are essential to building a
user/developer community.
But these pieces of the puzzle take work. And it tends to be work that
developers don't like to do.
So that leaves us where we are today. Several requests for others to
pick up some of this work have gone largely unheeded. Noel has done
some - organizing the list of outlets, writing up mailing list
instructions. You volunteered to do some documentation (FetchPOP) but
never delivered. I've done the rest.
This is all fine, as we all have different priorities in our lives. I
am not trying to scold anyone, I'm just laying it out the way it is.
But this does mean that we have to make (or at least try to make)
realistic assessments of what's going to get done, how it will get done,
and how getting that done will affect the release. Adding additional
work at this point in the release cycle is, in my view, not acceptable.
So, my -1 veto stands.
--Peter
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RE: Release mirroring - let's do the release right
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
> > I suggest the release guys to consider doing the next release
> following
> > the above guidelines, and thank the infrastructure team and Stefan for
> > the effort taken in being the first and in making the guide :-)
I didn't see this message, FWIW I'm +1 and if you're going to veto this I'd very much like to know why, beyond "additional required effort".
d.
>
> -1. Considered and rejected.
>
> We're having enough trouble pushing through the final stages without
> additional required effort. For 3.0 we will certainly examine the guide
> in some detail and see how James can work within the recommended
> context.
>
> --Peter
>
>
>
>
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RE: Release mirroring - let's do the release right
Posted by "Peter M. Goldstein" <pe...@yahoo.com>.
Nicola,
> I suggest the release guys to consider doing the next release
following
> the above guidelines, and thank the infrastructure team and Stefan for
> the effort taken in being the first and in making the guide :-)
-1. Considered and rejected.
We're having enough trouble pushing through the final stages without
additional required effort. For 3.0 we will certainly examine the guide
in some detail and see how James can work within the recommended
context.
--Peter
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