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Posted to dev@slider.apache.org by Steve Loughran <st...@hortonworks.com> on 2015/11/10 21:38:37 UTC
Fwd: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and
graduation
From incubator-general
This is interesting —and I think we need to make sure we aren't going to go the same way.
Part of the problem is, IMO, simply JIRA-first development gets in the way of broader discussions. I see that across projects, including Hadoop, spark & others. It's a great tool from a coding perspective, but I'm not convinced its so good for setting a shared vision of where a project should be going.
One thing I think we could do, other than talk more across the list, is set up some hangouts (or worse, webex) chats with people using/developing with Slider. I'm in GMT+000 right now, so can talk mornings my time/evenings asia, or evenings my time/mornings US, and my sunnyvale colleagues could round out the cycle with a US/asia chat.
who would be interested in some video conferences next week? Set a date and we can work out an agenda. I'll gladly talk about where I've been going with anti-affinity & even show some of the code
-steve
Begin forwarded message:
From: Joe Brockmeier <jz...@zonker.net>>
Date: 2 November 2015 at 11:59:15 GMT
To: General Apache Incubator <ge...@incubator.apache.org>>
Subject: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation
Hi all,
I'm one of the mentors of Sentry, which has been in incubation for some
time. The project has progressed in a number of ways, but my largest
concern is that the podling is doing [in my opinion] too much
development and discussion out-of-sight.
I've raised issues about this, as has David Nalley. David had a
conversation with members of Sentry at ApacheCon Big Data in September,
and that discussion was brought back to the list. [1]
Jiras are being filed, and swiftly acted on, in a way that strongly
suggests that a lot of discussion and direction of the project are
happening off-list and out-of-sight to the average participant. David
and myself have suggested ways that the community can remedy this, but
the most recent mail from Arvind indicates that he (and others in the
podling) don't feel it is a "valid ask."
At this point, I'm raising this to general@ because I'd like second (and
third, etc.) opinions. Perhaps I'm deeply wrong, and others here feel
Sentry is ready to graduate. My feeling is that the podling is not
operating in "the Apache Way" and doesn't show a great deal of interest
in doing so. [2] To quote Arvind:
"I feel another issue being pointed out or which has been eluded to in
the past is - who decides which Jiras should be fixed, what features to
create etc, specially when they show up as Jira issues directly with
patches that follow soon. It seems that in some ways the lack of using
mailing lists directly for discussion is linked to this behavior of
filing issues and fixing them rapidly, as if following a roadmap that
the community does not have control over. Please pardon me if my
interpretation/understanding of the issue is not right. But if it is
right, then I do want to say that - that too is not an issue in my
opinion at all. And here is why:
When someone files a Jira, they are inviting the entire community to
comment on it and provide feedback. If it is not in the interest of the
project, I do believe that responsible members of the community will be
quick to bring that out for discussion and even Veto it if necessary. If
that is not happening, it is not an issue with lack of community
participation, but rather it is an indicator of a project team that
knows where the gaps are and understands how to go about filling them
intuitively."
The model that Sentry is pursing may work very well *for the existing
members of the podling.* In my opinion, its process is entirely too
opaque to allow for interested parties outside of the existing podling
and companies interested in Sentry development to become involved.
The podling is pressing to move to graduation, and I cannot in good
conscience vote +1 or even +0 at this point. I'm strongly -1 as a mentor
and don't feel the podling has any interest in working in "the Apache
Way" as commonly understood. [3]
However, I feel we've reached an impasse and there's little value in
continuing to debate amongst the mentors / podling. They've stated their
position(s) and I've stated mine. (I *think* David Nalley is in
agreement with me, but I don't wish to speak for him.)
I'm bringing this to the IPMC fully understanding that I might be
totally wrong - maybe I'm holding to a too strict or outdated idea of
how projects should operate. I'm happy to be told so if that's the case
so I can improve as a mentor or decide to bow out from mentoring in the
future, if it's the case that my idea of a project is out-of-line with
the majority here.
[1] http://s.apache.org/611
[2] http://s.apache.org/bhQ
[3] http://theapacheway.com/
Best,
jzb
--
Joe Brockmeier
jzb@zonker.net<ma...@zonker.net>
Twitter: @jzb
http://www.dissociatedpress.net/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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RE: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and
graduation
Posted by Rohith Sharma K S <ro...@huawei.com>.
>>> who would be interested in some video conferences next week? Set a date and we can work out an agenda. I'll gladly talk about where I've been going with anti-affinity & even show some of the code
+1, I would like to be part of this discussion for sync up even though I am not actively contributing to SLIDER. :-)
@Stev, let me know the time and date.
Thanks & Regards
Rohith Sharma K S
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Loughran [mailto:stevel@hortonworks.com]
Sent: 11 November 2015 02:09
To: dev@slider.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Fwd: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation
From incubator-general
This is interesting —and I think we need to make sure we aren't going to go the same way.
Part of the problem is, IMO, simply JIRA-first development gets in the way of broader discussions. I see that across projects, including Hadoop, spark & others. It's a great tool from a coding perspective, but I'm not convinced its so good for setting a shared vision of where a project should be going.
One thing I think we could do, other than talk more across the list, is set up some hangouts (or worse, webex) chats with people using/developing with Slider. I'm in GMT+000 right now, so can talk mornings my time/evenings asia, or evenings my time/mornings US, and my sunnyvale colleagues could round out the cycle with a US/asia chat.
who would be interested in some video conferences next week? Set a date and we can work out an agenda. I'll gladly talk about where I've been going with anti-affinity & even show some of the code
-steve
Begin forwarded message:
From: Joe Brockmeier <jz...@zonker.net>>
Date: 2 November 2015 at 11:59:15 GMT
To: General Apache Incubator <ge...@incubator.apache.org>>
Subject: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation
Hi all,
I'm one of the mentors of Sentry, which has been in incubation for some time. The project has progressed in a number of ways, but my largest concern is that the podling is doing [in my opinion] too much development and discussion out-of-sight.
I've raised issues about this, as has David Nalley. David had a conversation with members of Sentry at ApacheCon Big Data in September, and that discussion was brought back to the list. [1]
Jiras are being filed, and swiftly acted on, in a way that strongly suggests that a lot of discussion and direction of the project are happening off-list and out-of-sight to the average participant. David and myself have suggested ways that the community can remedy this, but the most recent mail from Arvind indicates that he (and others in the
podling) don't feel it is a "valid ask."
At this point, I'm raising this to general@ because I'd like second (and third, etc.) opinions. Perhaps I'm deeply wrong, and others here feel Sentry is ready to graduate. My feeling is that the podling is not operating in "the Apache Way" and doesn't show a great deal of interest in doing so. [2] To quote Arvind:
"I feel another issue being pointed out or which has been eluded to in the past is - who decides which Jiras should be fixed, what features to create etc, specially when they show up as Jira issues directly with patches that follow soon. It seems that in some ways the lack of using mailing lists directly for discussion is linked to this behavior of filing issues and fixing them rapidly, as if following a roadmap that the community does not have control over. Please pardon me if my interpretation/understanding of the issue is not right. But if it is right, then I do want to say that - that too is not an issue in my opinion at all. And here is why:
When someone files a Jira, they are inviting the entire community to comment on it and provide feedback. If it is not in the interest of the project, I do believe that responsible members of the community will be quick to bring that out for discussion and even Veto it if necessary. If that is not happening, it is not an issue with lack of community participation, but rather it is an indicator of a project team that knows where the gaps are and understands how to go about filling them intuitively."
The model that Sentry is pursing may work very well *for the existing members of the podling.* In my opinion, its process is entirely too opaque to allow for interested parties outside of the existing podling and companies interested in Sentry development to become involved.
The podling is pressing to move to graduation, and I cannot in good conscience vote +1 or even +0 at this point. I'm strongly -1 as a mentor and don't feel the podling has any interest in working in "the Apache Way" as commonly understood. [3]
However, I feel we've reached an impasse and there's little value in continuing to debate amongst the mentors / podling. They've stated their
position(s) and I've stated mine. (I *think* David Nalley is in agreement with me, but I don't wish to speak for him.)
I'm bringing this to the IPMC fully understanding that I might be totally wrong - maybe I'm holding to a too strict or outdated idea of how projects should operate. I'm happy to be told so if that's the case so I can improve as a mentor or decide to bow out from mentoring in the future, if it's the case that my idea of a project is out-of-line with the majority here.
[1] http://s.apache.org/611
[2] http://s.apache.org/bhQ
[3] http://theapacheway.com/
Best,
jzb
--
Joe Brockmeier
jzb@zonker.net<ma...@zonker.net>
Twitter: @jzb
http://www.dissociatedpress.net/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and
graduation
Posted by Jon Maron <jm...@hortonworks.com>.
> On Nov 10, 2015, at 3:38 PM, Steve Loughran <st...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>
> From incubator-general
>
> This is interesting —and I think we need to make sure we aren't going to go the same way.
>
> Part of the problem is, IMO, simply JIRA-first development gets in the way of broader discussions. I see that across projects, including Hadoop, spark & others. It's a great tool from a coding perspective, but I'm not convinced its so good for setting a shared vision of where a project should be going.
>
> One thing I think we could do, other than talk more across the list, is set up some hangouts (or worse, webex) chats with people using/developing with Slider. I'm in GMT+000 right now, so can talk mornings my time/evenings asia, or evenings my time/mornings US, and my sunnyvale colleagues could round out the cycle with a US/asia chat.
>
> who would be interested in some video conferences next week? Set a date and we can work out an agenda. I'll gladly talk about where I've been going with anti-affinity & even show some of the code
Sounds like a good idea to me - I’d be interested.
>
> -steve
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Joe Brockmeier <jz...@zonker.net>>
> Date: 2 November 2015 at 11:59:15 GMT
> To: General Apache Incubator <ge...@incubator.apache.org>>
> Subject: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm one of the mentors of Sentry, which has been in incubation for some
> time. The project has progressed in a number of ways, but my largest
> concern is that the podling is doing [in my opinion] too much
> development and discussion out-of-sight.
>
> I've raised issues about this, as has David Nalley. David had a
> conversation with members of Sentry at ApacheCon Big Data in September,
> and that discussion was brought back to the list. [1]
>
> Jiras are being filed, and swiftly acted on, in a way that strongly
> suggests that a lot of discussion and direction of the project are
> happening off-list and out-of-sight to the average participant. David
> and myself have suggested ways that the community can remedy this, but
> the most recent mail from Arvind indicates that he (and others in the
> podling) don't feel it is a "valid ask."
>
> At this point, I'm raising this to general@ because I'd like second (and
> third, etc.) opinions. Perhaps I'm deeply wrong, and others here feel
> Sentry is ready to graduate. My feeling is that the podling is not
> operating in "the Apache Way" and doesn't show a great deal of interest
> in doing so. [2] To quote Arvind:
>
> "I feel another issue being pointed out or which has been eluded to in
> the past is - who decides which Jiras should be fixed, what features to
> create etc, specially when they show up as Jira issues directly with
> patches that follow soon. It seems that in some ways the lack of using
> mailing lists directly for discussion is linked to this behavior of
> filing issues and fixing them rapidly, as if following a roadmap that
> the community does not have control over. Please pardon me if my
> interpretation/understanding of the issue is not right. But if it is
> right, then I do want to say that - that too is not an issue in my
> opinion at all. And here is why:
>
> When someone files a Jira, they are inviting the entire community to
> comment on it and provide feedback. If it is not in the interest of the
> project, I do believe that responsible members of the community will be
> quick to bring that out for discussion and even Veto it if necessary. If
> that is not happening, it is not an issue with lack of community
> participation, but rather it is an indicator of a project team that
> knows where the gaps are and understands how to go about filling them
> intuitively."
>
> The model that Sentry is pursing may work very well *for the existing
> members of the podling.* In my opinion, its process is entirely too
> opaque to allow for interested parties outside of the existing podling
> and companies interested in Sentry development to become involved.
>
> The podling is pressing to move to graduation, and I cannot in good
> conscience vote +1 or even +0 at this point. I'm strongly -1 as a mentor
> and don't feel the podling has any interest in working in "the Apache
> Way" as commonly understood. [3]
>
> However, I feel we've reached an impasse and there's little value in
> continuing to debate amongst the mentors / podling. They've stated their
> position(s) and I've stated mine. (I *think* David Nalley is in
> agreement with me, but I don't wish to speak for him.)
>
> I'm bringing this to the IPMC fully understanding that I might be
> totally wrong - maybe I'm holding to a too strict or outdated idea of
> how projects should operate. I'm happy to be told so if that's the case
> so I can improve as a mentor or decide to bow out from mentoring in the
> future, if it's the case that my idea of a project is out-of-line with
> the majority here.
>
> [1] http://s.apache.org/611
> [2] http://s.apache.org/bhQ
> [3] http://theapacheway.com/
>
> Best,
>
> jzb
> --
> Joe Brockmeier
> jzb@zonker.net<ma...@zonker.net>
> Twitter: @jzb
> http://www.dissociatedpress.net/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
>