Re: Moderation

[Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>]

On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> 
> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure out if it's in moderation.
> 
> Can the moderators speak up?

Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is waiting
for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
doesn't strike me as at all excessive.

Mark

Re: Moderation

[Eric Evans <jo...@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:44 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> So seriously, we're going to send now 4 emails talking about what a user of Apache Cassandra and possible community member could have done right or better or sooner, or that there is no time limit to moderating shit when it could have been as simple as literally sending a confirmation email to moderate it through? This is the definition of process over community. And it's the definition (wrongly so) of why people think it's "Apache" that induces the processes that make shit hard, and not the community itself. Seriously this is a joke. So what if she didn't do it right the first time. You think potentially moderating her mail through and then sending a kind email suggesting she look at the instructions for how to subscribe, which oh someone may not have found easy to do or simply not understood that simply sending an email to the list wouldn't have made it go through the first time? Is it that hard to figure out? Really?
>
> This is the definition of making things hard and not making them easy or friendly. And this is also exactly what enables people to sound off on Twitter about a project, and loses the conversation that could have been had on Apache mailing lists. Kelly has been tweeting for days. I saw her tweets retweeted by someone in my feed, and yesterday asked her kindly to bring her conversation to the list. 12 hours later it's still in moderation, and we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow. Great job.

Wait, what?  As a moderator of this list (unpaid, volunteer), did I
miss the SLA I was being held to?  Are you volunteering to moderate
this list?


-- 
Eric Evans
john.eric.evans@gmail.com

Re: Moderation

[Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org>]

I'm not a PMC, and given everything that's happened recently, I no longer
have any desire to be.

I have nothing against improving the moderator situation.  What I have, and
continue to have, is something against the way you and the board go about
things.

On 4 November 2016 at 16:57, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 2016-11-04 09:51 (-0700), Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > Wow, that was quite the aggressive email. The thing is, it very much
> looks
> > like the only reason you care about this delay is because Kellabyte is
> > making the ASF board look bad on twitter.  If it weren't the case, it
> seems
> > unlikely such a "slow" 12hr response would receive board notice, let
> alone
> > ire.
> >
> > I think the board forgets that all of these functions are fulfilled by
> > volunteers (whoever the moderators are - I genuinely haven't a clue).
> > Expecting volunteers to jump to it, because the board is looking bad,
> seems
> > like a pretty clear *abuse* of process.
> >
>
>  She is welcome to denigrate the Apache Board. In fact, if you go back and
> read the Tweets she was originally doing so to DataStax. That said, the
> whole premise is that this is a conversation happening on Twitter where
> potentially knowledge could be gained about *Apache* Cassandra. You know,
> the project here at the ASF? And not somewhere else? Yet again, here we are
> at the 6th email, and the 2 second task to moderate a message through that
> could enable a conversation to be had on the *Apache* lists rather than
> Twitter still remains not being had here.
>
> I have been subscribed to dev@cassandra for months. This is not a high
> volume list. AT ALL. Yet you act like it's volunteer time that's preventing
> moderating a message through in 12 hours. Instead of asking the real
> question - are there enough moderators for the list in different timezones
> that can appropriately ensure that conversation happens on the list? Is
> that your goal? Are you on the Apache Cassandra PMC? Do you think it's
> healthy to send emails trying to talk shit instead of simply moderating
> messages through that could ground the conversation here at the ASF?
>
> Clearly per your snark and email you are pleased with Kelly "making the
> board look bad" [sic] on Twitter. Why not increase the visibility of making
> the board look bad and do so here on the official list for the project? Or
> is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead, I'll wait.
>
>
>
>
> > On 4 November 2016 at 16:44, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > So seriously, we're going to send now 4 emails talking about what a
> user
> > > of Apache Cassandra and possible community member could have done
> right or
> > > better or sooner, or that there is no time limit to moderating shit
> when it
> > > could have been as simple as literally sending a confirmation email to
> > > moderate it through? This is the definition of process over community.
> And
> > > it's the definition (wrongly so) of why people think it's "Apache" that
> > > induces the processes that make shit hard, and not the community
> itself.
> > > Seriously this is a joke. So what if she didn't do it right the first
> time.
> > > You think potentially moderating her mail through and then sending a
> kind
> > > email suggesting she look at the instructions for how to subscribe,
> which
> > > oh someone may not have found easy to do or simply not understood that
> > > simply sending an email to the list wouldn't have made it go through
> the
> > > first time? Is it that hard to figure out? Really?
> > >
> > > This is the definition of making things hard and not making them easy
> or
> > > friendly. And this is also exactly what enables people to sound off on
> > > Twitter about a project, and loses the conversation that could have
> been
> > > had on Apache mailing lists. Kelly has been tweeting for days. I saw
> her
> > > tweets retweeted by someone in my feed, and yesterday asked her kindly
> to
> > > bring her conversation to the list. 12 hours later it's still in
> > > moderation, and we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through.
> Wow.
> > > Great job.
> > >
> > > On 2016-11-04 09:37 (-0700), Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Is the message in moderation because
> > > > 1) it was sent by someone not registered with the list
> > > > 2) some other reason (anti-spam etc)
> > > >
> > > > If it is is case 1: Isn't the correct process to inform and encourage
> > > > someone list properly?
> > > > If it is case 2: Is there an expected ETA for list moderation events?
> > > > (probably not)
> > > >
> > > > I see twitter mentioned. We know that sometimes news and sentiment in
> > > > social media move fast and cause reactions on incorrect/unvetted
> > > > information.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
> > > > chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is
> tweeting
> > > > > thinking her message didn't go through and conversation is
> happening
> > > there
> > > > > when that same conversation could be had on list. If you are ok
> with
> > > that
> > > > > continuing to happen then great but I am not. Can someone please
> > > moderate
> > > > > the message through?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
> > > > > >> Hi Folks,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> > > figure
> > > > > out if it's in moderation.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Can the moderators speak up?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is
> > > waiting
> > > > > > for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours
> which
> > > > > > doesn't strike me as at all excessive.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mark
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Moderation

[Eric Evans <jo...@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:57 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> Yet you act like it's volunteer time that's preventing moderating a message through in 12 hours.

Here it is again, 12 hours.  If we have a 12 hour SLA on moderation,
then you can remove me as a moderator; I can't do that.

-- 
Eric Evans
john.eric.evans@gmail.com

Re: Moderation

[Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>]

On 2016-11-04 09:51 (-0700), Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org> wrote: 
> Wow, that was quite the aggressive email. The thing is, it very much looks
> like the only reason you care about this delay is because Kellabyte is
> making the ASF board look bad on twitter.  If it weren't the case, it seems
> unlikely such a "slow" 12hr response would receive board notice, let alone
> ire.
> 
> I think the board forgets that all of these functions are fulfilled by
> volunteers (whoever the moderators are - I genuinely haven't a clue).
> Expecting volunteers to jump to it, because the board is looking bad, seems
> like a pretty clear *abuse* of process.
> 

 She is welcome to denigrate the Apache Board. In fact, if you go back and read the Tweets she was originally doing so to DataStax. That said, the whole premise is that this is a conversation happening on Twitter where potentially knowledge could be gained about *Apache* Cassandra. You know, the project here at the ASF? And not somewhere else? Yet again, here we are at the 6th email, and the 2 second task to moderate a message through that could enable a conversation to be had on the *Apache* lists rather than Twitter still remains not being had here. 

I have been subscribed to dev@cassandra for months. This is not a high volume list. AT ALL. Yet you act like it's volunteer time that's preventing moderating a message through in 12 hours. Instead of asking the real question - are there enough moderators for the list in different timezones that can appropriately ensure that conversation happens on the list? Is that your goal? Are you on the Apache Cassandra PMC? Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk shit instead of simply moderating messages through that could ground the conversation here at the ASF? 

Clearly per your snark and email you are pleased with Kelly "making the board look bad" [sic] on Twitter. Why not increase the visibility of making the board look bad and do so here on the official list for the project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead, I'll wait.




> On 4 November 2016 at 16:44, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> > So seriously, we're going to send now 4 emails talking about what a user
> > of Apache Cassandra and possible community member could have done right or
> > better or sooner, or that there is no time limit to moderating shit when it
> > could have been as simple as literally sending a confirmation email to
> > moderate it through? This is the definition of process over community. And
> > it's the definition (wrongly so) of why people think it's "Apache" that
> > induces the processes that make shit hard, and not the community itself.
> > Seriously this is a joke. So what if she didn't do it right the first time.
> > You think potentially moderating her mail through and then sending a kind
> > email suggesting she look at the instructions for how to subscribe, which
> > oh someone may not have found easy to do or simply not understood that
> > simply sending an email to the list wouldn't have made it go through the
> > first time? Is it that hard to figure out? Really?
> >
> > This is the definition of making things hard and not making them easy or
> > friendly. And this is also exactly what enables people to sound off on
> > Twitter about a project, and loses the conversation that could have been
> > had on Apache mailing lists. Kelly has been tweeting for days. I saw her
> > tweets retweeted by someone in my feed, and yesterday asked her kindly to
> > bring her conversation to the list. 12 hours later it's still in
> > moderation, and we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow.
> > Great job.
> >
> > On 2016-11-04 09:37 (-0700), Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Is the message in moderation because
> > > 1) it was sent by someone not registered with the list
> > > 2) some other reason (anti-spam etc)
> > >
> > > If it is is case 1: Isn't the correct process to inform and encourage
> > > someone list properly?
> > > If it is case 2: Is there an expected ETA for list moderation events?
> > > (probably not)
> > >
> > > I see twitter mentioned. We know that sometimes news and sentiment in
> > > social media move fast and cause reactions on incorrect/unvetted
> > > information.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
> > > chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is tweeting
> > > > thinking her message didn't go through and conversation is happening
> > there
> > > > when that same conversation could be had on list. If you are ok with
> > that
> > > > continuing to happen then great but I am not. Can someone please
> > moderate
> > > > the message through?
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
> > > > >> Hi Folks,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> > figure
> > > > out if it's in moderation.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Can the moderators speak up?
> > > > >
> > > > > Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is
> > waiting
> > > > > for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
> > > > > doesn't strike me as at all excessive.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 

Re: Moderation

[Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org>]

Wow, that was quite the aggressive email. The thing is, it very much looks
like the only reason you care about this delay is because Kellabyte is
making the ASF board look bad on twitter.  If it weren't the case, it seems
unlikely such a "slow" 12hr response would receive board notice, let alone
ire.

I think the board forgets that all of these functions are fulfilled by
volunteers (whoever the moderators are - I genuinely haven't a clue).
Expecting volunteers to jump to it, because the board is looking bad, seems
like a pretty clear *abuse* of process.

On 4 November 2016 at 16:44, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:

> So seriously, we're going to send now 4 emails talking about what a user
> of Apache Cassandra and possible community member could have done right or
> better or sooner, or that there is no time limit to moderating shit when it
> could have been as simple as literally sending a confirmation email to
> moderate it through? This is the definition of process over community. And
> it's the definition (wrongly so) of why people think it's "Apache" that
> induces the processes that make shit hard, and not the community itself.
> Seriously this is a joke. So what if she didn't do it right the first time.
> You think potentially moderating her mail through and then sending a kind
> email suggesting she look at the instructions for how to subscribe, which
> oh someone may not have found easy to do or simply not understood that
> simply sending an email to the list wouldn't have made it go through the
> first time? Is it that hard to figure out? Really?
>
> This is the definition of making things hard and not making them easy or
> friendly. And this is also exactly what enables people to sound off on
> Twitter about a project, and loses the conversation that could have been
> had on Apache mailing lists. Kelly has been tweeting for days. I saw her
> tweets retweeted by someone in my feed, and yesterday asked her kindly to
> bring her conversation to the list. 12 hours later it's still in
> moderation, and we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow.
> Great job.
>
> On 2016-11-04 09:37 (-0700), Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Is the message in moderation because
> > 1) it was sent by someone not registered with the list
> > 2) some other reason (anti-spam etc)
> >
> > If it is is case 1: Isn't the correct process to inform and encourage
> > someone list properly?
> > If it is case 2: Is there an expected ETA for list moderation events?
> > (probably not)
> >
> > I see twitter mentioned. We know that sometimes news and sentiment in
> > social media move fast and cause reactions on incorrect/unvetted
> > information.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
> > chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >
> > > Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is tweeting
> > > thinking her message didn't go through and conversation is happening
> there
> > > when that same conversation could be had on list. If you are ok with
> that
> > > continuing to happen then great but I am not. Can someone please
> moderate
> > > the message through?
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
> > > >> Hi Folks,
> > > >>
> > > >> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> figure
> > > out if it's in moderation.
> > > >>
> > > >> Can the moderators speak up?
> > > >
> > > > Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is
> waiting
> > > > for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
> > > > doesn't strike me as at all excessive.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Moderation

[Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>]

So seriously, we're going to send now 4 emails talking about what a user of Apache Cassandra and possible community member could have done right or better or sooner, or that there is no time limit to moderating shit when it could have been as simple as literally sending a confirmation email to moderate it through? This is the definition of process over community. And it's the definition (wrongly so) of why people think it's "Apache" that induces the processes that make shit hard, and not the community itself. Seriously this is a joke. So what if she didn't do it right the first time. You think potentially moderating her mail through and then sending a kind email suggesting she look at the instructions for how to subscribe, which oh someone may not have found easy to do or simply not understood that simply sending an email to the list wouldn't have made it go through the first time? Is it that hard to figure out? Really?

This is the definition of making things hard and not making them easy or friendly. And this is also exactly what enables people to sound off on Twitter about a project, and loses the conversation that could have been had on Apache mailing lists. Kelly has been tweeting for days. I saw her tweets retweeted by someone in my feed, and yesterday asked her kindly to bring her conversation to the list. 12 hours later it's still in moderation, and we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow. Great job.

On 2016-11-04 09:37 (-0700), Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> Is the message in moderation because
> 1) it was sent by someone not registered with the list
> 2) some other reason (anti-spam etc)
> 
> If it is is case 1: Isn't the correct process to inform and encourage
> someone list properly?
> If it is case 2: Is there an expected ETA for list moderation events?
> (probably not)
> 
> I see twitter mentioned. We know that sometimes news and sentiment in
> social media move fast and cause reactions on incorrect/unvetted
> information.
> 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
> chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> 
> > Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is tweeting
> > thinking her message didn't go through and conversation is happening there
> > when that same conversation could be had on list. If you are ok with that
> > continuing to happen then great but I am not. Can someone please moderate
> > the message through?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
> > >> Hi Folks,
> > >>
> > >> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
> > out if it's in moderation.
> > >>
> > >> Can the moderators speak up?
> > >
> > > Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is waiting
> > > for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
> > > doesn't strike me as at all excessive.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> >
> 

Re: Moderation

[Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>]

Is the message in moderation because
1) it was sent by someone not registered with the list
2) some other reason (anti-spam etc)

If it is is case 1: Isn't the correct process to inform and encourage
someone list properly?
If it is case 2: Is there an expected ETA for list moderation events?
(probably not)

I see twitter mentioned. We know that sometimes news and sentiment in
social media move fast and cause reactions on incorrect/unvetted
information.


On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:

> Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is tweeting
> thinking her message didn't go through and conversation is happening there
> when that same conversation could be had on list. If you are ok with that
> continuing to happen then great but I am not. Can someone please moderate
> the message through?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
> >> Hi Folks,
> >>
> >> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
> out if it's in moderation.
> >>
> >> Can the moderators speak up?
> >
> > Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is waiting
> > for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
> > doesn't strike me as at all excessive.
> >
> > Mark
> >
>

Re: Moderation

["Mattmann, Chris A (3010)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>]

Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is tweeting thinking her message didn't go through and conversation is happening there when that same conversation could be had on list. If you are ok with that continuing to happen then great but I am not. Can someone please moderate the message through?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
>> Hi Folks,
>> 
>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure out if it's in moderation.
>> 
>> Can the moderators speak up?
> 
> Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is waiting
> for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
> doesn't strike me as at all excessive.
> 
> Mark
>