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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> on 2013/09/04 01:30:57 UTC
Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Till <ti...@westmann.org> wrote:
>> Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> hat am 22. August 2013 um 18:21
>> geschrieben:
>> Let me be blunt: VXQuery needs to make an incubating release.
>>
>> Personally, I think it's important that we see one before your next
>> quarterly report.
>
> Yes, I agree. And probably "important" is an understatement.
Today, I was wondering how VXQuery could have made it through four
years in the Incubator without making a release, and I took a look at the
website.
I note that in the navigation bar on the left hand side there is a "For Users"
section which includes an "Installation" link. The page at the link points to
the README file in svn.
http://incubator.apache.org/vxquery/user_installation.html
Install instructions can be found in the README file.
We must not distribute to users from our source repositories:
http://www.apache.org/dev/release.html#what
During the process of developing software and preparing a release, various
packages are made available to the developer community for testing
purposes. Do not include any links on the project website that might
encourage non-developers to download and use nightly builds, snapshots,
release candidates, or any other similar package. The only people who are
supposed to know about such packages are the people following the dev list
(or searching its archives) and thus aware of the conditions placed on the
package. If you find that the general public are downloading such test
packages, then remove them.
Under no circumstances are unapproved builds a substitute for releases. If
this policy seems inconvenient, then release more often. Proper release
management is a key aspect of Apache software development.
Here's some background about the policy in a message from Roy Fielding to the
legal-discuss list.
http://markmail.org/message/njray5dbazwcdcts
The release process is critical because it is the point at which the ASF
as an organization approves a release to the public. It is the point at
which the ASF's liability and goodwill comes into play. The checkpoints
are necessary to ensure that we don't release a product that isn't open
source or that hasn't been reviewed by the peers, since either one would
seriously damage the foundation. The consistency is necessary because it
establishes a well-worn set of procedures that distinguish ASF projects
from those at Sourceforge or Google code.
Speaking as the Incubator PMC Chair:
Please remove the user installation links immediately. VXQuery is not allowed
to distribute code which has not passed an IPMC vote to the general public.
Speaking as a member of the Incubator PMC:
If VXQuery has not released by the next report, I expect to initiate a
discussion on retiring the podling.
Marvin Humphrey
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Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
Just to confirm several other Apache projects web site include links to nightly builds, but in most cases it's clear that it for development use, so is it OK to do like these projects do?
Solr: http://wiki.apache.org/solr/NightlyBuilds
JMeter: http://jmeter.apache.org/nightly.html
Direcory: http://directory.apache.org/studio/nightly-builds.html
Nutch: http://nutch.apache.org/nightly.html
Ant: http://ant.apache.org/nightlies.html
I'm asking because we may have a similar issue with the Apache Flex web site and the Apache Flex SDK installer. The last release of the Apache Flex installer allowed a user to install the nightly build, however it does default to the last official release and lists previous releases.
Thanks,
Justin
Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by Till Westmann <ti...@westmann.org>.
Ant,
I think that everybody in the VXQuery podling would be very happy to have you on board as a mentor, even if we manage to release before the next report (which I still think we will).
Please let us know if you would be willing to spend a few cycles helping VXQuery.
Thanks,
Till
On Sep 5, 2013, at 7:58 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't see the need or point in being so draconian with the poddling
> especially given its history, so if you really do want to initiate
> retirement discussions if they've not released by their next report
> (which is just a few weeks away right?) I'll be voting against it and
> will volunteer to be a mentor to help try to keep them alive if they
> want to keep trying.
>
> ...ant
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:01 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> To me VXQuery looks like an example of a project being let down by the
>>> Incubator PMC.
>>
>> Regardless, they will have to overcome their challenges themselves.
>>
>>> Similarly with the no releases in 4 years - they've attempted to
>>> release twice and both times it stalled getting the votes, what they need
>>> are mentors who can show them whats necessary to push releases and voting
>>> through the Incubator.
>>
>> VXQuery received guidance on pushing releases back in July[1]. It seems to
>> have had no effect[2].
>>
>> The Incubator is not a hosting service. If VXQuery wants to be part of
>> Apache, they must release.
>>
>> Marvin Humphrey
>>
>> [1] http://s.apache.org/9Sg
>> [2] http://s.apache.org/rkn
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
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Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by Till Westmann <ti...@westmann.org>.
Ant,
I think that everybody in the VXQuery podling would be very happy to have you on board as a mentor, even if we manage to release before the next report (which I still think we will).
Please let us know if you would be willing to spend a few cycles helping VXQuery.
Thanks,
Till
On Sep 5, 2013, at 7:58 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't see the need or point in being so draconian with the poddling
> especially given its history, so if you really do want to initiate
> retirement discussions if they've not released by their next report
> (which is just a few weeks away right?) I'll be voting against it and
> will volunteer to be a mentor to help try to keep them alive if they
> want to keep trying.
>
> ...ant
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:01 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> To me VXQuery looks like an example of a project being let down by the
>>> Incubator PMC.
>>
>> Regardless, they will have to overcome their challenges themselves.
>>
>>> Similarly with the no releases in 4 years - they've attempted to
>>> release twice and both times it stalled getting the votes, what they need
>>> are mentors who can show them whats necessary to push releases and voting
>>> through the Incubator.
>>
>> VXQuery received guidance on pushing releases back in July[1]. It seems to
>> have had no effect[2].
>>
>> The Incubator is not a hosting service. If VXQuery wants to be part of
>> Apache, they must release.
>>
>> Marvin Humphrey
>>
>> [1] http://s.apache.org/9Sg
>> [2] http://s.apache.org/rkn
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
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Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I even asked a technical question about one of their suggested use cases -
> organize and accessing Edgar documents. A source I have actually worked
> with. Company data is something I've been around all my life and I am in my
> 50s. I grew up around company data since my father was a Finance Professor
> at the University of Chicago and one of the founders of CRSP. My development
> career also involves managing and analyzing company data.
Apache doesn't gate projects based on technological criteria, so while it's
regretful that VXQuery didn't work out for you, that doesn't impact whether
we'd host it.
> But you should also look back to over a year ago when they got another
> chance. How many another chances and mentor reboots should we give a
> project?
I'm starting to think that for long-running, low-activity podlings, we should
be looking at whether new committers and PPMC members are being added and are
sticking around to contribute commits. If community size and commit diversity
are what's blocking graduation, the podling needs to demonstrate that they are
striving to make progress on those specific issues.
In VXQuery's case, though, they still have to get the incubating release out.
To my mind, any podling that achieves that has succeeded -- and even if it
doesn't go on to amass a viable TLP community, the podling has earned a
dignified retirement.
Marvin Humphrey
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Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by Vinayak Borkar <vi...@gmail.com>.
Hi Dave,
I apologize if the answer you got to your question about VXQuery usage
to be clueless and abstract. Since we did not see any feedback to the
response to your question, the conclusion was that you were satisfied
with the answer. The VXQuery team would have and still would appreciate
any constructive ideas you might have that can help the project both
from a technical as well as a process point of view.
Thanks,
Vinayak
On 9/6/13 4:43 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> Hi Ant,
>
> I was the shepherd on VXQuery in their last reporting period. I really don't feel like anything is really happening in the project, at least not anywhere that is visible. I even asked a technical question about one of their suggested use cases - organize and accessing Edgar documents. A source I have actually worked with. Company data is something I've been around all my life and I am in my 50s. I grew up around company data since my father was a Finance Professor at the University of Chicago and one of the founders of CRSP. My development career also involves managing and analyzing company data.
>
> Their answer was not clueful and very abstract. They have an idea for a query engine without any idea how to get data into the engine. Anyone with a clue would choose to use Apache Solr, Lucene, or something in the Hadoop cluster of projects over VXQuery.
>
> However if you think that a viable community and project is happening give it a try.
>
> But you should also look back to over a year ago when they got another chance. How many another chances and mentor reboots should we give a project?
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
> On Sep 5, 2013, at 7:58 AM, ant elder wrote:
>
>> I don't see the need or point in being so draconian with the poddling
>> especially given its history, so if you really do want to initiate
>> retirement discussions if they've not released by their next report
>> (which is just a few weeks away right?) I'll be voting against it and
>> will volunteer to be a mentor to help try to keep them alive if they
>> want to keep trying.
>>
>> ...ant
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:01 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> To me VXQuery looks like an example of a project being let down by the
>>>> Incubator PMC.
>>>
>>> Regardless, they will have to overcome their challenges themselves.
>>>
>>>> Similarly with the no releases in 4 years - they've attempted to
>>>> release twice and both times it stalled getting the votes, what they need
>>>> are mentors who can show them whats necessary to push releases and voting
>>>> through the Incubator.
>>>
>>> VXQuery received guidance on pushing releases back in July[1]. It seems to
>>> have had no effect[2].
>>>
>>> The Incubator is not a hosting service. If VXQuery wants to be part of
>>> Apache, they must release.
>>>
>>> Marvin Humphrey
>>>
>>> [1] http://s.apache.org/9Sg
>>> [2] http://s.apache.org/rkn
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>
>
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Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
Hi Ant,
I was the shepherd on VXQuery in their last reporting period. I really don't feel like anything is really happening in the project, at least not anywhere that is visible. I even asked a technical question about one of their suggested use cases - organize and accessing Edgar documents. A source I have actually worked with. Company data is something I've been around all my life and I am in my 50s. I grew up around company data since my father was a Finance Professor at the University of Chicago and one of the founders of CRSP. My development career also involves managing and analyzing company data.
Their answer was not clueful and very abstract. They have an idea for a query engine without any idea how to get data into the engine. Anyone with a clue would choose to use Apache Solr, Lucene, or something in the Hadoop cluster of projects over VXQuery.
However if you think that a viable community and project is happening give it a try.
But you should also look back to over a year ago when they got another chance. How many another chances and mentor reboots should we give a project?
Regards,
Dave
On Sep 5, 2013, at 7:58 AM, ant elder wrote:
> I don't see the need or point in being so draconian with the poddling
> especially given its history, so if you really do want to initiate
> retirement discussions if they've not released by their next report
> (which is just a few weeks away right?) I'll be voting against it and
> will volunteer to be a mentor to help try to keep them alive if they
> want to keep trying.
>
> ...ant
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:01 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> To me VXQuery looks like an example of a project being let down by the
>>> Incubator PMC.
>>
>> Regardless, they will have to overcome their challenges themselves.
>>
>>> Similarly with the no releases in 4 years - they've attempted to
>>> release twice and both times it stalled getting the votes, what they need
>>> are mentors who can show them whats necessary to push releases and voting
>>> through the Incubator.
>>
>> VXQuery received guidance on pushing releases back in July[1]. It seems to
>> have had no effect[2].
>>
>> The Incubator is not a hosting service. If VXQuery wants to be part of
>> Apache, they must release.
>>
>> Marvin Humphrey
>>
>> [1] http://s.apache.org/9Sg
>> [2] http://s.apache.org/rkn
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
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Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
I don't see the need or point in being so draconian with the poddling
especially given its history, so if you really do want to initiate
retirement discussions if they've not released by their next report
(which is just a few weeks away right?) I'll be voting against it and
will volunteer to be a mentor to help try to keep them alive if they
want to keep trying.
...ant
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:01 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > To me VXQuery looks like an example of a project being let down by the
> > Incubator PMC.
>
> Regardless, they will have to overcome their challenges themselves.
>
> > Similarly with the no releases in 4 years - they've attempted to
> > release twice and both times it stalled getting the votes, what they need
> > are mentors who can show them whats necessary to push releases and voting
> > through the Incubator.
>
> VXQuery received guidance on pushing releases back in July[1]. It seems to
> have had no effect[2].
>
> The Incubator is not a hosting service. If VXQuery wants to be part of
> Apache, they must release.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
> [1] http://s.apache.org/9Sg
> [2] http://s.apache.org/rkn
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:01 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To me VXQuery looks like an example of a project being let down by the
> Incubator PMC.
Regardless, they will have to overcome their challenges themselves.
> Similarly with the no releases in 4 years - they've attempted to
> release twice and both times it stalled getting the votes, what they need
> are mentors who can show them whats necessary to push releases and voting
> through the Incubator.
VXQuery received guidance on pushing releases back in July[1]. It seems to
have had no effect[2].
The Incubator is not a hosting service. If VXQuery wants to be part of
Apache, they must release.
Marvin Humphrey
[1] http://s.apache.org/9Sg
[2] http://s.apache.org/rkn
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Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
Dropping the vxquery mailing list...
To me VXQuery looks like an example of a project being let down by the
Incubator PMC. This labeling issue was just an honest attempt at trying to
be helpful not some underhanded attempt to try to circumvent the ASF
release policy, if they were getting adequate mentoring it would have just
been an opportunity to teach them more about the ASF release policies and
processes. Similarly with the no releases in 4 years - they've attempted to
release twice and both times it stalled getting the votes, what they need
are mentors who can show them whats necessary to push releases and voting
through the Incubator. In the past they've asked us for more mentors to
help and got nothing. Its a small project but its managed to survive for 4
years here and still have some active committers and as they've just shown
now when a problem is reported they fixed it in less than a day, so all
credit to them for keeping on trying.
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:46 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for doing that so promptly Till.
>
> ...ant
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 4:00 AM, Till Westmann <ti...@westmann.org> wrote:
>
>> Just for the record: The website is updated (from the branch that will
>> hopefully be released soon).
>>
>> Till
>>
>> On Sep 4, 2013, at 12:11 AM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 11:42 PM, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>> >> ant elder wrote:
>> >>> Hi Marvin, I had a look, that README being pointed to is just build
>> >>> instructions on how to build the svn trunk isn't it, so not to some
>> >>> released artifacts. Thats allowed isn't it, i'm pretty sure other
>> projects
>> >>> and podlings have done something similar anyway. Is it that the
>> website
>> >>> describes it as user installation instructions rather than developer
>> build
>> >>> instructions thats the issue?
>> >>>
>> >>> ...ant
>> >>
>> >> I reckon so. To clearly refer developers to developer resources
>> >> is fine, but users no. They need to be referred to user instructions.
>> >
>> > In VXQuery's case, there's nothing to refer users to because in four
>> years,
>> > VXQuery has never made an incubating release.
>> >
>> > If developer instructions for accessing version control are added to the
>> > website in accordance with ASF guidelines, of course that's fine -- so
>> > long as all "user installation" instructions are removed.
>> >
>> > Here's more background from the legal-discuss list regarding the
>> current policy,
>> > this time from a different Board member, Doug Cutting:
>> >
>> > http://markmail.org/message/pelvob23vrzuzws5
>> >
>> > Each PMC should attempt to ensure that every commit is in accord with
>> > Apache's intellectual property policies. Releases are a double-check
>> of
>> > this. We hope that source code repositories are not legally
>> considered
>> > publications, but we don't know that courts will in fact always
>> treat them
>> > that way, so it's best to guard against that too. Note that the extra
>> > scrutiny around releases both serves to double-check (belt and
>> suspenders)
>> > as well as to provide evidence that we do not consider the source
>> code
>> > repository as a publication. But again, we cannot depend on others to
>> > agree with that, and must guard against other interpretations as
>> best we
>> > can.
>> >
>> > If VXQuery finds it uncomfortable not to have anything they can show
>> users,
>> > they can solve that by making a release.
>> >
>> > Marvin Humphrey
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>>
>>
>
Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
Thanks for doing that so promptly Till.
...ant
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 4:00 AM, Till Westmann <ti...@westmann.org> wrote:
> Just for the record: The website is updated (from the branch that will
> hopefully be released soon).
>
> Till
>
> On Sep 4, 2013, at 12:11 AM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 11:42 PM, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >> ant elder wrote:
> >>> Hi Marvin, I had a look, that README being pointed to is just build
> >>> instructions on how to build the svn trunk isn't it, so not to some
> >>> released artifacts. Thats allowed isn't it, i'm pretty sure other
> projects
> >>> and podlings have done something similar anyway. Is it that the website
> >>> describes it as user installation instructions rather than developer
> build
> >>> instructions thats the issue?
> >>>
> >>> ...ant
> >>
> >> I reckon so. To clearly refer developers to developer resources
> >> is fine, but users no. They need to be referred to user instructions.
> >
> > In VXQuery's case, there's nothing to refer users to because in four
> years,
> > VXQuery has never made an incubating release.
> >
> > If developer instructions for accessing version control are added to the
> > website in accordance with ASF guidelines, of course that's fine -- so
> > long as all "user installation" instructions are removed.
> >
> > Here's more background from the legal-discuss list regarding the current
> policy,
> > this time from a different Board member, Doug Cutting:
> >
> > http://markmail.org/message/pelvob23vrzuzws5
> >
> > Each PMC should attempt to ensure that every commit is in accord with
> > Apache's intellectual property policies. Releases are a double-check
> of
> > this. We hope that source code repositories are not legally considered
> > publications, but we don't know that courts will in fact always treat
> them
> > that way, so it's best to guard against that too. Note that the extra
> > scrutiny around releases both serves to double-check (belt and
> suspenders)
> > as well as to provide evidence that we do not consider the source code
> > repository as a publication. But again, we cannot depend on others to
> > agree with that, and must guard against other interpretations as best
> we
> > can.
> >
> > If VXQuery finds it uncomfortable not to have anything they can show
> users,
> > they can solve that by making a release.
> >
> > Marvin Humphrey
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
>
>
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>
Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
Thanks for doing that so promptly Till.
...ant
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 4:00 AM, Till Westmann <ti...@westmann.org> wrote:
> Just for the record: The website is updated (from the branch that will
> hopefully be released soon).
>
> Till
>
> On Sep 4, 2013, at 12:11 AM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 11:42 PM, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >> ant elder wrote:
> >>> Hi Marvin, I had a look, that README being pointed to is just build
> >>> instructions on how to build the svn trunk isn't it, so not to some
> >>> released artifacts. Thats allowed isn't it, i'm pretty sure other
> projects
> >>> and podlings have done something similar anyway. Is it that the website
> >>> describes it as user installation instructions rather than developer
> build
> >>> instructions thats the issue?
> >>>
> >>> ...ant
> >>
> >> I reckon so. To clearly refer developers to developer resources
> >> is fine, but users no. They need to be referred to user instructions.
> >
> > In VXQuery's case, there's nothing to refer users to because in four
> years,
> > VXQuery has never made an incubating release.
> >
> > If developer instructions for accessing version control are added to the
> > website in accordance with ASF guidelines, of course that's fine -- so
> > long as all "user installation" instructions are removed.
> >
> > Here's more background from the legal-discuss list regarding the current
> policy,
> > this time from a different Board member, Doug Cutting:
> >
> > http://markmail.org/message/pelvob23vrzuzws5
> >
> > Each PMC should attempt to ensure that every commit is in accord with
> > Apache's intellectual property policies. Releases are a double-check
> of
> > this. We hope that source code repositories are not legally considered
> > publications, but we don't know that courts will in fact always treat
> them
> > that way, so it's best to guard against that too. Note that the extra
> > scrutiny around releases both serves to double-check (belt and
> suspenders)
> > as well as to provide evidence that we do not consider the source code
> > repository as a publication. But again, we cannot depend on others to
> > agree with that, and must guard against other interpretations as best
> we
> > can.
> >
> > If VXQuery finds it uncomfortable not to have anything they can show
> users,
> > they can solve that by making a release.
> >
> > Marvin Humphrey
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by Till Westmann <ti...@westmann.org>.
Just for the record: The website is updated (from the branch that will hopefully be released soon).
Till
On Sep 4, 2013, at 12:11 AM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 11:42 PM, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>> ant elder wrote:
>>> Hi Marvin, I had a look, that README being pointed to is just build
>>> instructions on how to build the svn trunk isn't it, so not to some
>>> released artifacts. Thats allowed isn't it, i'm pretty sure other projects
>>> and podlings have done something similar anyway. Is it that the website
>>> describes it as user installation instructions rather than developer build
>>> instructions thats the issue?
>>>
>>> ...ant
>>
>> I reckon so. To clearly refer developers to developer resources
>> is fine, but users no. They need to be referred to user instructions.
>
> In VXQuery's case, there's nothing to refer users to because in four years,
> VXQuery has never made an incubating release.
>
> If developer instructions for accessing version control are added to the
> website in accordance with ASF guidelines, of course that's fine -- so
> long as all "user installation" instructions are removed.
>
> Here's more background from the legal-discuss list regarding the current policy,
> this time from a different Board member, Doug Cutting:
>
> http://markmail.org/message/pelvob23vrzuzws5
>
> Each PMC should attempt to ensure that every commit is in accord with
> Apache's intellectual property policies. Releases are a double-check of
> this. We hope that source code repositories are not legally considered
> publications, but we don't know that courts will in fact always treat them
> that way, so it's best to guard against that too. Note that the extra
> scrutiny around releases both serves to double-check (belt and suspenders)
> as well as to provide evidence that we do not consider the source code
> repository as a publication. But again, we cannot depend on others to
> agree with that, and must guard against other interpretations as best we
> can.
>
> If VXQuery finds it uncomfortable not to have anything they can show users,
> they can solve that by making a release.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by Till Westmann <ti...@westmann.org>.
Just for the record: The website is updated (from the branch that will hopefully be released soon).
Till
On Sep 4, 2013, at 12:11 AM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 11:42 PM, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>> ant elder wrote:
>>> Hi Marvin, I had a look, that README being pointed to is just build
>>> instructions on how to build the svn trunk isn't it, so not to some
>>> released artifacts. Thats allowed isn't it, i'm pretty sure other projects
>>> and podlings have done something similar anyway. Is it that the website
>>> describes it as user installation instructions rather than developer build
>>> instructions thats the issue?
>>>
>>> ...ant
>>
>> I reckon so. To clearly refer developers to developer resources
>> is fine, but users no. They need to be referred to user instructions.
>
> In VXQuery's case, there's nothing to refer users to because in four years,
> VXQuery has never made an incubating release.
>
> If developer instructions for accessing version control are added to the
> website in accordance with ASF guidelines, of course that's fine -- so
> long as all "user installation" instructions are removed.
>
> Here's more background from the legal-discuss list regarding the current policy,
> this time from a different Board member, Doug Cutting:
>
> http://markmail.org/message/pelvob23vrzuzws5
>
> Each PMC should attempt to ensure that every commit is in accord with
> Apache's intellectual property policies. Releases are a double-check of
> this. We hope that source code repositories are not legally considered
> publications, but we don't know that courts will in fact always treat them
> that way, so it's best to guard against that too. Note that the extra
> scrutiny around releases both serves to double-check (belt and suspenders)
> as well as to provide evidence that we do not consider the source code
> repository as a publication. But again, we cannot depend on others to
> agree with that, and must guard against other interpretations as best we
> can.
>
> If VXQuery finds it uncomfortable not to have anything they can show users,
> they can solve that by making a release.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 11:42 PM, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> ant elder wrote:
>> Hi Marvin, I had a look, that README being pointed to is just build
>> instructions on how to build the svn trunk isn't it, so not to some
>> released artifacts. Thats allowed isn't it, i'm pretty sure other projects
>> and podlings have done something similar anyway. Is it that the website
>> describes it as user installation instructions rather than developer build
>> instructions thats the issue?
>>
>> ...ant
>
> I reckon so. To clearly refer developers to developer resources
> is fine, but users no. They need to be referred to user instructions.
In VXQuery's case, there's nothing to refer users to because in four years,
VXQuery has never made an incubating release.
If developer instructions for accessing version control are added to the
website in accordance with ASF guidelines, of course that's fine -- so
long as all "user installation" instructions are removed.
Here's more background from the legal-discuss list regarding the current policy,
this time from a different Board member, Doug Cutting:
http://markmail.org/message/pelvob23vrzuzws5
Each PMC should attempt to ensure that every commit is in accord with
Apache's intellectual property policies. Releases are a double-check of
this. We hope that source code repositories are not legally considered
publications, but we don't know that courts will in fact always treat them
that way, so it's best to guard against that too. Note that the extra
scrutiny around releases both serves to double-check (belt and suspenders)
as well as to provide evidence that we do not consider the source code
repository as a publication. But again, we cannot depend on others to
agree with that, and must guard against other interpretations as best we
can.
If VXQuery finds it uncomfortable not to have anything they can show users,
they can solve that by making a release.
Marvin Humphrey
Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 11:42 PM, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> ant elder wrote:
>> Hi Marvin, I had a look, that README being pointed to is just build
>> instructions on how to build the svn trunk isn't it, so not to some
>> released artifacts. Thats allowed isn't it, i'm pretty sure other projects
>> and podlings have done something similar anyway. Is it that the website
>> describes it as user installation instructions rather than developer build
>> instructions thats the issue?
>>
>> ...ant
>
> I reckon so. To clearly refer developers to developer resources
> is fine, but users no. They need to be referred to user instructions.
In VXQuery's case, there's nothing to refer users to because in four years,
VXQuery has never made an incubating release.
If developer instructions for accessing version control are added to the
website in accordance with ASF guidelines, of course that's fine -- so
long as all "user installation" instructions are removed.
Here's more background from the legal-discuss list regarding the current policy,
this time from a different Board member, Doug Cutting:
http://markmail.org/message/pelvob23vrzuzws5
Each PMC should attempt to ensure that every commit is in accord with
Apache's intellectual property policies. Releases are a double-check of
this. We hope that source code repositories are not legally considered
publications, but we don't know that courts will in fact always treat them
that way, so it's best to guard against that too. Note that the extra
scrutiny around releases both serves to double-check (belt and suspenders)
as well as to provide evidence that we do not consider the source code
repository as a publication. But again, we cannot depend on others to
agree with that, and must guard against other interpretations as best we
can.
If VXQuery finds it uncomfortable not to have anything they can show users,
they can solve that by making a release.
Marvin Humphrey
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
ant elder wrote:
> Hi Marvin, I had a look, that README being pointed to is just build
> instructions on how to build the svn trunk isn't it, so not to some
> released artifacts. Thats allowed isn't it, i'm pretty sure other projects
> and podlings have done something similar anyway. Is it that the website
> describes it as user installation instructions rather than developer build
> instructions thats the issue?
>
> ...ant
I reckon so. To clearly refer developers to developer resources
is fine, but users no. They need to be referred to user instructions.
-David
> On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 12:30 AM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Till <ti...@westmann.org> wrote:
> > >> Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> hat am 22. August 2013 um
> > 18:21
> > >> geschrieben:
> >
> > >> Let me be blunt: VXQuery needs to make an incubating release.
> > >>
> > >> Personally, I think it's important that we see one before your next
> > >> quarterly report.
> > >
> > > Yes, I agree. And probably "important" is an understatement.
> >
> > Today, I was wondering how VXQuery could have made it through four
> > years in the Incubator without making a release, and I took a look at the
> > website.
> >
> > I note that in the navigation bar on the left hand side there is a "For
> > Users"
> > section which includes an "Installation" link. The page at the link
> > points to
> > the README file in svn.
> >
> > http://incubator.apache.org/vxquery/user_installation.html
> >
> > Install instructions can be found in the README file.
> >
> > We must not distribute to users from our source repositories:
> >
> > http://www.apache.org/dev/release.html#what
> >
> > During the process of developing software and preparing a release,
> > various
> > packages are made available to the developer community for testing
> > purposes. Do not include any links on the project website that might
> > encourage non-developers to download and use nightly builds, snapshots,
> > release candidates, or any other similar package. The only people who
> > are
> > supposed to know about such packages are the people following the dev
> > list
> > (or searching its archives) and thus aware of the conditions placed on
> > the
> > package. If you find that the general public are downloading such test
> > packages, then remove them.
> >
> > Under no circumstances are unapproved builds a substitute for
> > releases. If
> > this policy seems inconvenient, then release more often. Proper release
> > management is a key aspect of Apache software development.
> >
> > Here's some background about the policy in a message from Roy Fielding to
> > the
> > legal-discuss list.
> >
> > http://markmail.org/message/njray5dbazwcdcts
> >
> > The release process is critical because it is the point at which the
> > ASF
> > as an organization approves a release to the public. It is the point at
> > which the ASF's liability and goodwill comes into play. The checkpoints
> > are necessary to ensure that we don't release a product that isn't open
> > source or that hasn't been reviewed by the peers, since either one
> > would
> > seriously damage the foundation. The consistency is necessary because
> > it
> > establishes a well-worn set of procedures that distinguish ASF projects
> > from those at Sourceforge or Google code.
> >
> > Speaking as the Incubator PMC Chair:
> >
> > Please remove the user installation links immediately. VXQuery is not
> > allowed
> > to distribute code which has not passed an IPMC vote to the general public.
> >
> > Speaking as a member of the Incubator PMC:
> >
> > If VXQuery has not released by the next report, I expect to initiate a
> > discussion on retiring the podling.
> >
> > Marvin Humphrey
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
Hi Marvin, I had a look, that README being pointed to is just build
instructions on how to build the svn trunk isn't it, so not to some
released artifacts. Thats allowed isn't it, i'm pretty sure other projects
and podlings have done something similar anyway. Is it that the website
describes it as user installation instructions rather than developer build
instructions thats the issue?
...ant
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 12:30 AM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Till <ti...@westmann.org> wrote:
> >> Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> hat am 22. August 2013 um
> 18:21
> >> geschrieben:
>
> >> Let me be blunt: VXQuery needs to make an incubating release.
> >>
> >> Personally, I think it's important that we see one before your next
> >> quarterly report.
> >
> > Yes, I agree. And probably "important" is an understatement.
>
> Today, I was wondering how VXQuery could have made it through four
> years in the Incubator without making a release, and I took a look at the
> website.
>
> I note that in the navigation bar on the left hand side there is a "For
> Users"
> section which includes an "Installation" link. The page at the link
> points to
> the README file in svn.
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/vxquery/user_installation.html
>
> Install instructions can be found in the README file.
>
> We must not distribute to users from our source repositories:
>
> http://www.apache.org/dev/release.html#what
>
> During the process of developing software and preparing a release,
> various
> packages are made available to the developer community for testing
> purposes. Do not include any links on the project website that might
> encourage non-developers to download and use nightly builds, snapshots,
> release candidates, or any other similar package. The only people who
> are
> supposed to know about such packages are the people following the dev
> list
> (or searching its archives) and thus aware of the conditions placed on
> the
> package. If you find that the general public are downloading such test
> packages, then remove them.
>
> Under no circumstances are unapproved builds a substitute for
> releases. If
> this policy seems inconvenient, then release more often. Proper release
> management is a key aspect of Apache software development.
>
> Here's some background about the policy in a message from Roy Fielding to
> the
> legal-discuss list.
>
> http://markmail.org/message/njray5dbazwcdcts
>
> The release process is critical because it is the point at which the
> ASF
> as an organization approves a release to the public. It is the point at
> which the ASF's liability and goodwill comes into play. The checkpoints
> are necessary to ensure that we don't release a product that isn't open
> source or that hasn't been reviewed by the peers, since either one
> would
> seriously damage the foundation. The consistency is necessary because
> it
> establishes a well-worn set of procedures that distinguish ASF projects
> from those at Sourceforge or Google code.
>
> Speaking as the Incubator PMC Chair:
>
> Please remove the user installation links immediately. VXQuery is not
> allowed
> to distribute code which has not passed an IPMC vote to the general public.
>
> Speaking as a member of the Incubator PMC:
>
> If VXQuery has not released by the next report, I expect to initiate a
> discussion on retiring the podling.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Followup to VXQuery July 2013 report
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
Hi Marvin, I had a look, that README being pointed to is just build
instructions on how to build the svn trunk isn't it, so not to some
released artifacts. Thats allowed isn't it, i'm pretty sure other projects
and podlings have done something similar anyway. Is it that the website
describes it as user installation instructions rather than developer build
instructions thats the issue?
...ant
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 12:30 AM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Till <ti...@westmann.org> wrote:
> >> Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> hat am 22. August 2013 um
> 18:21
> >> geschrieben:
>
> >> Let me be blunt: VXQuery needs to make an incubating release.
> >>
> >> Personally, I think it's important that we see one before your next
> >> quarterly report.
> >
> > Yes, I agree. And probably "important" is an understatement.
>
> Today, I was wondering how VXQuery could have made it through four
> years in the Incubator without making a release, and I took a look at the
> website.
>
> I note that in the navigation bar on the left hand side there is a "For
> Users"
> section which includes an "Installation" link. The page at the link
> points to
> the README file in svn.
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/vxquery/user_installation.html
>
> Install instructions can be found in the README file.
>
> We must not distribute to users from our source repositories:
>
> http://www.apache.org/dev/release.html#what
>
> During the process of developing software and preparing a release,
> various
> packages are made available to the developer community for testing
> purposes. Do not include any links on the project website that might
> encourage non-developers to download and use nightly builds, snapshots,
> release candidates, or any other similar package. The only people who
> are
> supposed to know about such packages are the people following the dev
> list
> (or searching its archives) and thus aware of the conditions placed on
> the
> package. If you find that the general public are downloading such test
> packages, then remove them.
>
> Under no circumstances are unapproved builds a substitute for
> releases. If
> this policy seems inconvenient, then release more often. Proper release
> management is a key aspect of Apache software development.
>
> Here's some background about the policy in a message from Roy Fielding to
> the
> legal-discuss list.
>
> http://markmail.org/message/njray5dbazwcdcts
>
> The release process is critical because it is the point at which the
> ASF
> as an organization approves a release to the public. It is the point at
> which the ASF's liability and goodwill comes into play. The checkpoints
> are necessary to ensure that we don't release a product that isn't open
> source or that hasn't been reviewed by the peers, since either one
> would
> seriously damage the foundation. The consistency is necessary because
> it
> establishes a well-worn set of procedures that distinguish ASF projects
> from those at Sourceforge or Google code.
>
> Speaking as the Incubator PMC Chair:
>
> Please remove the user installation links immediately. VXQuery is not
> allowed
> to distribute code which has not passed an IPMC vote to the general public.
>
> Speaking as a member of the Incubator PMC:
>
> If VXQuery has not released by the next report, I expect to initiate a
> discussion on retiring the podling.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>