HttpComponents TLP: further course of actions

[Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>]

Folks,

First off, we have to admit that our attempt at merging Jakarta
HttpComponents and Jakarta Slide communities to form one joint TLP
failed miserably. There was only one person from the Slide community
expressing interest in being on the new PMC. Moreover, the overall
reaction from Jakarta folks was, well, disappointing. Frankly I have an
impression no one cared. Let's face it: we are on our own.

So, I suggest the following course of actions

(1) Revert to our original proposal and plan
(2) State that Slide are welcome to join at any point they feel
interested and ready. 
(3) Send a message to WebService General list and invite those
interested in overseeing the project join the PMC
(4) Decide on who assumed the role of the Chair. This one is going to be
a tough one.
(5) Put the proposal on vote in October.

_Please_ do let me know what do you think.

Oleg


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Re: HttpComponents TLP: further course of actions

[Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>]

Andrea Selva wrote:
> I think to get people working on it, it should be used by some main
> projects, or used in first class projects, such as a connector for tomcat or
> better for jetty. A browser could be a good candidate to project light on
> the HttpComponente, but is a so big project.

Yes, projects using the code are a big help. We've seen
bug reports - and fixes - come in from Synapse and
Limewire (iirc), for example. Unfortunately it is not
within our sphere of influence who is using the code.

We are facing the traditional problem of middleware:
it's not cool, like hacking on a kernel is. It's not
a personal requirement like a hardware driver is.
And it's not user-facing like a browser. It's just
somewhere in the middle, and as long as it does what
it's supposed to do, few people care. When it doesn't,
there are some fixes, and then the interest fades
away again. We're trying to make the code appealing
to more users, but the users won't come until the
code is almost ready to be used for their purposes.
We'd have to stumble over somebody starting to hack
on it as a pastime... while Oleg and I are setting
a pretty high standard in terms of code quality.
(and will continue to do so)

cheers,
  Roland




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Re: HttpComponents TLP: further course of actions

[Andrea Selva <se...@gmail.com>]

I think to get people working on it, it should be used by some main
projects, or used in first class projects, such as a connector for tomcat or
better for jetty. A browser could be a good candidate to project light on
the HttpComponente, but is a so big project.
These are only my thoughts, and could be trivial or not applycable.
 Andrea


On 9/17/07, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2007-09-17 at 15:20 +0200, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> > Caught up on the thread, sorry for not listening.
> > This is a reply to the whole thread..
> >
> > To be honest, I think we need to solve this at a "higher" level. There
> are always going to be (sub)
> > projects that have less than 3 active people on it at any given time and
> when being on their own
> > this imposes a serious problem on making releases. So I think it is best
> to proceed with figuring
> > out (or getting opinions / resolutions from members/board) to see how
> they see this situation handled.
> >
>
> Hi Martin
>
> I suppose you can expect a simple answer that a project unable to muster
> 3 binding votes does not meet ASF standards and should go to the
> incubator or sourceforge.
>
> In case of HttpComponents we do not have a problem getting enough
> binding votes to cut releases. We also have enough people for a
> reasonable TLP even if we decided to go alone. The trouble is that, even
> though there are quite a few people interested in continued development
> of HttpComponents and HttpClient, there are only two persons (me and
> Roland) doing some hands on development at the moment.
>
> We were hoping that a joint TLP with Slide would mend the situation by
> increasing the number of active developers and potentially leading to a
> cross-pollination in terms of ideas and code between two groups and
> creating a more sustainable ecology around the larger community. So, the
> idea seems to have failed to gain enough traction.
>
> We can keep things are they are for some time but sooner or later
> Jakarta will get shut down and some sort of decision will be forced upon
> us. I _personally_ would definitely prefer to act before that happens,
> but cannot do it just on my own.
>
> Oleg
>
>
>
> > Thoughts ?
> >
> > Mvgr,
> > Martin
> >
> > Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> > > Folks,
> > >
> > > First off, we have to admit that our attempt at merging Jakarta
> > > HttpComponents and Jakarta Slide communities to form one joint TLP
> > > failed miserably. There was only one person from the Slide community
> > > expressing interest in being on the new PMC. Moreover, the overall
> > > reaction from Jakarta folks was, well, disappointing. Frankly I have
> an
> > > impression no one cared. Let's face it: we are on our own.
> > >
> > > So, I suggest the following course of actions
> > >
> > > (1) Revert to our original proposal and plan
> > > (2) State that Slide are welcome to join at any point they feel
> > > interested and ready.
> > > (3) Send a message to WebService General list and invite those
> > > interested in overseeing the project join the PMC
> > > (4) Decide on who assumed the role of the Chair. This one is going to
> be
> > > a tough one.
> > > (5) Put the proposal on vote in October.
> > >
> > > _Please_ do let me know what do you think.
> > >
> > > Oleg
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
>
>
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>

Re: HttpComponents TLP: further course of actions

[Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>]

Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> 
> As to the PMC chair I was thinking about writing to
> Jeff "Jandalf" and begging him to come back to the project to assume the
> role of the PMC chair.

That would really take a load off our shoulders,
in particular during the move. Great idea!

cheers,
  Roland


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Re: HttpComponents TLP: further course of actions

[Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>]

Roland Weber wrote:
> Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
>> Jakarta will get shut down and some sort of decision will be forced upon
>> us. I _personally_ would definitely prefer to act before that happens,
> 
> I can see your point. Let's meet halfways on this. Prepare the
> proposal for December, so that the migration - including the
> first three board reports which are due monthly - falls into Q1?
> I don't have lectures to take care of in Q1. And we'll have
> time until December to figure out the PMC chair question.
> 


Sounds like a plan. As to the PMC chair I was thinking about writing to 
Jeff "Jandalf" and begging him to come back to the project to assume the 
role of the PMC chair.


> Even though you'll have to do the bulk of the migration work,
> I feel it is important that I help as well. For me personally,
> as I am ramping up my Apache skills. But also for the project.
> The more stuff only you know how to do, the bigger the risk for
> the project if you should (have to) scale back your efforts.
> 

I appreciate that.

Oleg

> cheers,
>   Roland
> 
> 
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> 


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Re: HttpComponents TLP: further course of actions

[Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>]

Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> Jakarta will get shut down and some sort of decision will be forced upon
> us. I _personally_ would definitely prefer to act before that happens,

I can see your point. Let's meet halfways on this. Prepare the
proposal for December, so that the migration - including the
first three board reports which are due monthly - falls into Q1?
I don't have lectures to take care of in Q1. And we'll have
time until December to figure out the PMC chair question.

Even though you'll have to do the bulk of the migration work,
I feel it is important that I help as well. For me personally,
as I am ramping up my Apache skills. But also for the project.
The more stuff only you know how to do, the bigger the risk for
the project if you should (have to) scale back your efforts.

cheers,
  Roland


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Re: HttpComponents TLP: further course of actions

[Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>]

On Mon, 2007-09-17 at 15:20 +0200, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> Caught up on the thread, sorry for not listening.
> This is a reply to the whole thread..
> 
> To be honest, I think we need to solve this at a "higher" level. There are always going to be (sub)
> projects that have less than 3 active people on it at any given time and when being on their own
> this imposes a serious problem on making releases. So I think it is best to proceed with figuring
> out (or getting opinions / resolutions from members/board) to see how they see this situation handled.
> 

Hi Martin

I suppose you can expect a simple answer that a project unable to muster
3 binding votes does not meet ASF standards and should go to the
incubator or sourceforge. 

In case of HttpComponents we do not have a problem getting enough
binding votes to cut releases. We also have enough people for a
reasonable TLP even if we decided to go alone. The trouble is that, even
though there are quite a few people interested in continued development
of HttpComponents and HttpClient, there are only two persons (me and
Roland) doing some hands on development at the moment. 

We were hoping that a joint TLP with Slide would mend the situation by
increasing the number of active developers and potentially leading to a
cross-pollination in terms of ideas and code between two groups and
creating a more sustainable ecology around the larger community. So, the
idea seems to have failed to gain enough traction.

We can keep things are they are for some time but sooner or later
Jakarta will get shut down and some sort of decision will be forced upon
us. I _personally_ would definitely prefer to act before that happens,
but cannot do it just on my own.

Oleg



> Thoughts ?
> 
> Mvgr,
> Martin
> 
> Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> > Folks,
> > 
> > First off, we have to admit that our attempt at merging Jakarta
> > HttpComponents and Jakarta Slide communities to form one joint TLP
> > failed miserably. There was only one person from the Slide community
> > expressing interest in being on the new PMC. Moreover, the overall
> > reaction from Jakarta folks was, well, disappointing. Frankly I have an
> > impression no one cared. Let's face it: we are on our own.
> > 
> > So, I suggest the following course of actions
> > 
> > (1) Revert to our original proposal and plan
> > (2) State that Slide are welcome to join at any point they feel
> > interested and ready. 
> > (3) Send a message to WebService General list and invite those
> > interested in overseeing the project join the PMC
> > (4) Decide on who assumed the role of the Chair. This one is going to be
> > a tough one.
> > (5) Put the proposal on vote in October.
> > 
> > _Please_ do let me know what do you think.
> > 
> > Oleg
> > 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> 
> 


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Re: HttpComponents TLP: further course of actions

[Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>]

Caught up on the thread, sorry for not listening.
This is a reply to the whole thread..

To be honest, I think we need to solve this at a "higher" level. There are always going to be (sub)
projects that have less than 3 active people on it at any given time and when being on their own
this imposes a serious problem on making releases. So I think it is best to proceed with figuring
out (or getting opinions / resolutions from members/board) to see how they see this situation handled.

Thoughts ?

Mvgr,
Martin

Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> First off, we have to admit that our attempt at merging Jakarta
> HttpComponents and Jakarta Slide communities to form one joint TLP
> failed miserably. There was only one person from the Slide community
> expressing interest in being on the new PMC. Moreover, the overall
> reaction from Jakarta folks was, well, disappointing. Frankly I have an
> impression no one cared. Let's face it: we are on our own.
> 
> So, I suggest the following course of actions
> 
> (1) Revert to our original proposal and plan
> (2) State that Slide are welcome to join at any point they feel
> interested and ready. 
> (3) Send a message to WebService General list and invite those
> interested in overseeing the project join the PMC
> (4) Decide on who assumed the role of the Chair. This one is going to be
> a tough one.
> (5) Put the proposal on vote in October.
> 
> _Please_ do let me know what do you think.
> 
> Oleg
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> 
> 
> 

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Re: HttpComponents TLP: further course of actions

[Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>]

Hi Oleg,

> I am convinced it is important there are different and moreover at times
> conflicting opinions. I am also convinced disagreements are healthy if
> they lead to a compromise. 

In general, I agree. In this specific case...
a) too many times (for my liking)
b) it's always just the two of us

cheers,
  Roland

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Re: HttpComponents TLP: further course of actions

[Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>]

On Sun, 2007-09-16 at 09:39 +0200, Roland Weber wrote:
> Hi Oleg, all,
> 
> > Let's face it: we are on our own.
> > 
> Yes, we are.
> 
> > So, I suggest the following course of actions
> > 
> > (1) Revert to our original proposal and plan
> 
> I've thought about that, and my view is a bit more pessimistic
> than a few weeks ago. Maybe because I am no longer fired up
> about the web site confusion. Or because I don't have as much
> time to put into it.
> 
> > (2) State that Slide are welcome to join at any point they feel
> > interested and ready. 
> > (3) Send a message to WebService General list and invite those
> > interested in overseeing the project join the PMC
> 
> We'll be able to scrape together a PMC with enough people
> to vote on releases and stuff. But there's still something
> I consider a fundamental flaw in the composition of our
> community. While we have attracted several contributers
> for patches, and I am very grateful for Sebastian reviewing
> the release packages, there are still only two developers
> _pushing_ this project forward. And more often than not,
> we're pushing in different directions. It's not healthy.
> 

Roland

I am convinced it is important there are different and moreover at times
conflicting opinions. I am also convinced disagreements are healthy if
they lead to a compromise. 

> Jakarta, the umbrella, has become very silent recently.
> We might be better off just laying still for some more
> months, getting HttpClient to beta and hoping to attract
> more contributors with that. Yes I know... not likely.
> 
> Saying that, I did put my name on the original proposal
> and will stick to that. It's just that I will be busy
> with my lectures again for the rest of the year, and
> have some other reasons forcing me to restrict my computer
> time as well. I won't be able to help as much as I had
> hoped two months ago.
> 
> > (4) Decide on who assumed the role of the Chair. This one is going to be
> > a tough one.
> 
> full ack.
> 
> > (5) Put the proposal on vote in October.
> > 
> See above. How about May or June 2008?
> 

I have no problem doing all that tedious and non-glorious leg work but I
do not want to be seen as the only person pushing this idea. So, let's
wait.

Cheers

Oleg


> cheers,
>   Roland
> 
> 
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> 


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Re: HttpComponents TLP: further course of actions

[Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>]

Hi Oleg, all,

> Let's face it: we are on our own.
> 
Yes, we are.

> So, I suggest the following course of actions
> 
> (1) Revert to our original proposal and plan

I've thought about that, and my view is a bit more pessimistic
than a few weeks ago. Maybe because I am no longer fired up
about the web site confusion. Or because I don't have as much
time to put into it.

> (2) State that Slide are welcome to join at any point they feel
> interested and ready. 
> (3) Send a message to WebService General list and invite those
> interested in overseeing the project join the PMC

We'll be able to scrape together a PMC with enough people
to vote on releases and stuff. But there's still something
I consider a fundamental flaw in the composition of our
community. While we have attracted several contributers
for patches, and I am very grateful for Sebastian reviewing
the release packages, there are still only two developers
_pushing_ this project forward. And more often than not,
we're pushing in different directions. It's not healthy.

Jakarta, the umbrella, has become very silent recently.
We might be better off just laying still for some more
months, getting HttpClient to beta and hoping to attract
more contributors with that. Yes I know... not likely.

Saying that, I did put my name on the original proposal
and will stick to that. It's just that I will be busy
with my lectures again for the rest of the year, and
have some other reasons forcing me to restrict my computer
time as well. I won't be able to help as much as I had
hoped two months ago.

> (4) Decide on who assumed the role of the Chair. This one is going to be
> a tough one.

full ack.

> (5) Put the proposal on vote in October.
> 
See above. How about May or June 2008?

cheers,
  Roland


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Re: HttpComponents TLP: further course of actions

["Asankha C. Perera" <as...@wso2.com>]

I am not fully updated on the merge attempt with slide.. but AFAIK the 
WS community is interested to welcome HttpComponents.
So I agree with the proposal below if it helps ensure the continuity of 
HttpComponents, and also believe that more members from it would be 
interested in HttpComponents in future if this happens.

asankha

Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> Folks,
>
> First off, we have to admit that our attempt at merging Jakarta
> HttpComponents and Jakarta Slide communities to form one joint TLP
> failed miserably. There was only one person from the Slide community
> expressing interest in being on the new PMC. Moreover, the overall
> reaction from Jakarta folks was, well, disappointing. Frankly I have an
> impression no one cared. Let's face it: we are on our own.
>
> So, I suggest the following course of actions
>
> (1) Revert to our original proposal and plan
> (2) State that Slide are welcome to join at any point they feel
> interested and ready. 
> (3) Send a message to WebService General list and invite those
> interested in overseeing the project join the PMC
> (4) Decide on who assumed the role of the Chair. This one is going to be
> a tough one.
> (5) Put the proposal on vote in October.
>
> _Please_ do let me know what do you think.
>
> Oleg
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
>   

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