The Process of New Committers

["Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>]

In response to recent questions/discussions:

Committers are voted upon by PMC members.  It is a policy decision, and so
follows the normal 3 +1 votes and more +1 than -1 (although if there really
is a controversial vote, the PMC may choose to defer the vote until a wider
consensus can be reached).  Within the Incubator, all PPMC members are
absolutely encouraged to vote.  The PMC still needs to be involved to
provide binding votes, as well as oversight.

As for where to vote ... because we don't want to embarrass potential
committers, and to give (P)PMC members a chance to air their views, it is
generally recommended that you at least start the discussion on the PPMC
list.  After that, you can vote on the PPMC list and post a result if it is
favorable, or you can vote on the public list.  Again, I wouldn't hold a
public vote that is clearly going to be voted down or controversial, unless
you enjoy embarrassing others.

When a PPMC decides to vote, it should post a note to the Incubator PMC to
let the PMC as a whole know about the vote.

	--- Noel


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RE: The Process of New Committers

["Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>]

Leo Simons wrote:

> Noel J. Bergman wrote:

> > if you are having a vote, just let the rest of the PMC know
> > about it.  We don't vote in dark corners

> > The PMC is collectively responsible for all projects under
> > Incubation, and ought to be kept aware of what is happening.
> > Do you have a concern about that?

> Not at all! From your e-mail it sounded to me as if you had
> something more specific in mind

Henri had pinged me last night on IRC, and had a few questions based on some
e-mails he'd seen involving a few of our project's trying to understand how
to handle new committers.  He, I, Upayavira, and a few others, discussed it
a bit.  Since e-mail is the official medium for the ASF, not IRC, it was
appropriate to post an e-mail for everyone, and that's what we've been
discussing here this morning.  :-)

> frankly, it seems that incubating projects on a whole haven't
> been all to good at bubbling up enough info

Perhaps true, but I wasn't addressing anything specific, other than Henri's
questions.  :-)

> Ok, then we're pretty much on the same page already after all :-)

Darn, don't you just hate it when that happens?  :-D

	--- Noel


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Re: The Process of New Committers

[Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>]

On Sun, May 14, 2006 at 10:32:50AM -0400, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Leo Simons wrote:
> 
> > Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > When a PPMC decides to vote, it should post a note to the
> > > Incubator PMC to let the PMC as a whole know about the vote.
> 
> > You mean before the vote, after the vote, before results are
> > announced, after it, or is taking care of this with a CC on
> > the request of the creation of an account enough?
> 
> I mean that if you are having a vote, just let the rest of the PMC know
> about it.  We don't vote in dark corners (discussing potential committers in
> private so as to avoid embarrassment and facilitate honest discussion,
> aside).  The PMC is collectively responsible for all projects under
> Incubation, and ought to be kept aware of what is happening.  Do you have a
> concern about that?

Not at all! From your e-mail it sounded to me as if you had
something more specific in mind (and frankly, it seems that incubating
projects on a whole haven't been all to good at bubbling up enough info
so I could imagine the need), I just wanted to make sure.

> > with harmony we seem to have consistently had enough incubator
> > PMC members active on the PPMC list to get enough binding +1s
> 
> That's fine <snip/>

Ok, then we're pretty much on the same page already after all :-)

ciao!

LSD

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RE: The Process of New Committers

["Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>]

Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:

> That was my understanding of the mechanism as well - that some number of
> IPMC members had to be on the ppmc which made the actions there legal.

A minimum of 3 PMC member votes, although not all PPMC lists have sufficient
PMC members on them to fulfill that requirement.

The simple point is that there is just one Incubator PMC, not many, even if
we are split across various working groups.  If you've got sufficient PMC
members for your vote, great, but it would still be appropriate to just let
the rest of the PMC know about the vote.  And if you don't have enough PMC
members for a vote, you'd need to involve the PMC, anyway, to get the
numbers.

And consider, in the case of a release vote, how many times we have had
Mentors vote in favor of a release, only for another PMC member to spot a
problem.  Collective oversight is a good thing.  :-)

	--- Noel


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Re: The Process of New Committers

[Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>]

Leo Simons wrote:
> On Sat, May 13, 2006 at 09:02:42PM -0400, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> When a PPMC decides to vote, it should post a note to the Incubator PMC to
>> let the PMC as a whole know about the vote.
> 
> This is new to me. You mean before the vote, after the vote, before results are
> announced, after it, or is taking care of this with a CC on the request of the
> creation of an account enough?
> 
> (with harmony we seem to have consistently had enough incubator PMC members
> active on the PPMC list to get enough binding +1s, and I think we haven't really
> felt a need to "bubble up" to the PMC list, since pretty much the only thing that
> happens on the PPMC list is about bringing in new committers anyway, so PMC people
> could just subscribe to harmony-ppmc...)

That was my understanding of the mechanism as well - that some number of 
IPMC members had to be on the ppmc which made the actions there legal.

IIRC, we also tend to post summaries back to the PMC when done...

geir


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RE: The Process of New Committers

["Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>]

Leo Simons wrote:

> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > When a PPMC decides to vote, it should post a note to the
> > Incubator PMC to let the PMC as a whole know about the vote.

> You mean before the vote, after the vote, before results are
> announced, after it, or is taking care of this with a CC on
> the request of the creation of an account enough?

I mean that if you are having a vote, just let the rest of the PMC know
about it.  We don't vote in dark corners (discussing potential committers in
private so as to avoid embarrassment and facilitate honest discussion,
aside).  The PMC is collectively responsible for all projects under
Incubation, and ought to be kept aware of what is happening.  Do you have a
concern about that?

> with harmony we seem to have consistently had enough incubator
> PMC members active on the PPMC list to get enough binding +1s

That's fine, and frankly, that's also behind the recommendation to have at
least three (3) Mentors on each PPMC.  Allows each PPMC to be as nimble as
necessary.  Mind you, if a project doesn't have at least three PMC Members
monitoring the list, then it won't have sufficient binding votes without the
rest of the PMC knowing, anyway.

	--- Noel


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Re: The Process of New Committers

[Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>]

On Sat, May 13, 2006 at 09:02:42PM -0400, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> When a PPMC decides to vote, it should post a note to the Incubator PMC to
> let the PMC as a whole know about the vote.

This is new to me. You mean before the vote, after the vote, before results are
announced, after it, or is taking care of this with a CC on the request of the
creation of an account enough?

(with harmony we seem to have consistently had enough incubator PMC members
active on the PPMC list to get enough binding +1s, and I think we haven't really
felt a need to "bubble up" to the PMC list, since pretty much the only thing that
happens on the PPMC list is about bringing in new committers anyway, so PMC people
could just subscribe to harmony-ppmc...)

cheers,

LSD

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