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Posted to dev@struts.apache.org by Martin Gilday <ma...@imap.cc> on 2007/06/23 14:07:45 UTC
Has the WebWork rebranding to Struts2 been a failure?
This is something I have been thinking about for a while, but has been
highlighted by Wicket recently graduating from the Apache Incubator.
When checking out blogs, newsgroups, theserverside, infoq etc it has
become apparent to me that Struts 2 is still very much thought of as
just Struts 1++, in a negative sense. When you see posts by people
saying which web frameworks they have tried out because they were
unhappy with Struts 1 then Wicket, Click, Tapestry are mentioned. Struts
2, however, is always seemingly dismissed without a look, as they feel
all the problems they have with Struts 1 must still exist. Of course
there is plently on info on the wiki detailing why they are different,
but if they have already crossed it off the list before getting to the
site it isn't much use in getting the message across. I'm not really
sure what my point is as the name is the name now. Maybe some positive
marketing such as some blog posting about the improvements and
differences, or in release annoucements really strongly detailing them.
What do you think about Struts 2 current image in the Java community?
Thanks,
Martin.
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Re: Has the WebWork rebranding to Struts2 been a failure?
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 6/23/07, Martin Gilday <ma...@imap.cc> wrote:
> [snip]
> The stats that Ted posted suggest that I have nothing
> to worry about anyway. Maybe we are just not as vocal about it. I'm
> assuming those stats only include direct downloads and not the central
> Maven repo where many people may be pulling it from?
Not only is it just direct downloads ... it is just direct downloads
from Apache's server only, and does not include downloads from any of
the mirrors (which is where well behaved folks *should* be getting
their downloads). Or, obviously, from the Maven repositories.
As recently as three weeks ago, I was talking to some people who have
whole consultancies still built around Struts 1, for old and new
projects, that are doing just fine, thank you. You can sneer all you
want about how Struts 1 doesn't "measure up" to your 2007
sensibilities ... but it's still very widely popular six years after
version 1.0 was released :-).
Craig McClanahan
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Re: Has the WebWork rebranding to Struts2 been a failure?
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 6/23/07, Martin Gilday <ma...@imap.cc> wrote:
> Maybe we are just not as vocal about it. I'm
> assuming those stats only include direct downloads and not the central
> Maven repo where many people may be pulling it from?
June 15th was the sixth anniversary of Struts 1.0, so there might
still be time to post a "Struts turns six" roundup that mentions the
downloads statistics, Ian's book, Roller 4, and such.
I don't believe anyone tracks the hits on the Maven repo, and we don't
have any information about whether that's a common approach or not.
-Ted.
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Re: Has the WebWork rebranding to Struts2 been a failure?
Posted by Martin Gilday <ma...@imap.cc>.
Thanks for all the replies, they made for some interesting reading. I'd
just like to apologise if this has come across as a dig at Struts or
anyone who has given their time to the project, that was never my
intention. I really enjoy working with Struts 2 and it has helped me
immensley. I am nothing but grateful to all those involved. Phil, Toby
and all the guys on the Opensymphony forums have always been extremly
helpful. I really shouldn't have used the word failure, it is much too
strong. I was just looking at what preconceptions developers might have
with the name. I wouldn't want them missing out on something I feel is a
very good tool, but as Frank and Don have stated I probably shouldn't be
too concerned. The stats that Ted posted suggest that I have nothing
to worry about anyway. Maybe we are just not as vocal about it. I'm
assuming those stats only include direct downloads and not the central
Maven repo where many people may be pulling it from?
Martin.
----- Original message -----
From: "Ted Husted" <hu...@apache.org>
To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 14:27:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Has the WebWork rebranding to Struts2 been a failure?
On 6/23/07, Martin Gilday <ma...@imap.cc> wrote:
> This is something I have been thinking about for a while, but has been
> highlighted by Wicket recently graduating from the Apache Incubator.
> When checking out blogs, newsgroups, theserverside, infoq etc it has
> become apparent to me that Struts 2 is still very much thought of as
> just Struts 1++, in a negative sense.
Thanks to Google alerts, I've been reading a lot of the blogs and such
all along. I would agree that many people perceive Struts 2 as Struts
1++. I would even say that label is a fair assessment, and even a goal
of the merger. If there's a negative sense, it's a statement about
action-based frameworks, as opposed to component-based or Ajax-based
frameworks. I wouldn't take it personally. :)
The nature of the beast is that most blogs are about some shiny new
toy, which can even include Struts 2, for example:
http://www.vitarara.org/cms/struts2cookbook
> When you see posts by people
> saying which web frameworks they have tried out because they were
> unhappy with Struts 1 then Wicket, Click, Tapestry are mentioned. Struts
> 2, however, is always seemingly dismissed without a look, as they feel
> all the problems they have with Struts 1 must still exist.
Oh, judging by the download stats, I think a few people are checking
out Struts 2 :)
In March 2007, right after the release of 2.0.6, Struts 2 had its
largest spike of downloads ever! We didn't edge out Tomcat, but we did
briefly edge out Apache HTTPD :)
And, honestly, before today, I never even thought to look :)
> Of course
> there is plently on info on the wiki detailing why they are different,
> but if they have already crossed it off the list before getting to the
> site it isn't much use in getting the message across. I'm not really
> sure what my point is as the name is the name now. Maybe some positive
> marketing such as some blog posting about the improvements and
> differences, or in release annoucements really strongly detailing them.
We did try to highlight the differences and improvements in the
initial announcement.
* http://struts.apache.org/announce.html#a20070223
which many people cribbed word for word. If there are any suggestions
about what we could highlight differently, the RM is usually looking
for help with drafting the release announcement.
If we had a marketing budget, an announcement about the record
downloads for Struts 2 might be an interesting idea. But, it actually
costs money to send out a press release these days :)
I'm checking with the Apache Stats groups to make sure I'm reading the
graphs right. Then I'll at least post something to our site, which
other people might pickup. For example, InfoQ might want to do
something to promote Ian's book, and we could piggy back on that.
-Ted.
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Re: Has the WebWork rebranding to Struts2 been a failure?
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 6/23/07, Martin Gilday <ma...@imap.cc> wrote:
> This is something I have been thinking about for a while, but has been
> highlighted by Wicket recently graduating from the Apache Incubator.
> When checking out blogs, newsgroups, theserverside, infoq etc it has
> become apparent to me that Struts 2 is still very much thought of as
> just Struts 1++, in a negative sense.
Thanks to Google alerts, I've been reading a lot of the blogs and such
all along. I would agree that many people perceive Struts 2 as Struts
1++. I would even say that label is a fair assessment, and even a goal
of the merger. If there's a negative sense, it's a statement about
action-based frameworks, as opposed to component-based or Ajax-based
frameworks. I wouldn't take it personally. :)
The nature of the beast is that most blogs are about some shiny new
toy, which can even include Struts 2, for example:
http://www.vitarara.org/cms/struts2cookbook
> When you see posts by people
> saying which web frameworks they have tried out because they were
> unhappy with Struts 1 then Wicket, Click, Tapestry are mentioned. Struts
> 2, however, is always seemingly dismissed without a look, as they feel
> all the problems they have with Struts 1 must still exist.
Oh, judging by the download stats, I think a few people are checking
out Struts 2 :)
In March 2007, right after the release of 2.0.6, Struts 2 had its
largest spike of downloads ever! We didn't edge out Tomcat, but we did
briefly edge out Apache HTTPD :)
And, honestly, before today, I never even thought to look :)
> Of course
> there is plently on info on the wiki detailing why they are different,
> but if they have already crossed it off the list before getting to the
> site it isn't much use in getting the message across. I'm not really
> sure what my point is as the name is the name now. Maybe some positive
> marketing such as some blog posting about the improvements and
> differences, or in release annoucements really strongly detailing them.
We did try to highlight the differences and improvements in the
initial announcement.
* http://struts.apache.org/announce.html#a20070223
which many people cribbed word for word. If there are any suggestions
about what we could highlight differently, the RM is usually looking
for help with drafting the release announcement.
If we had a marketing budget, an announcement about the record
downloads for Struts 2 might be an interesting idea. But, it actually
costs money to send out a press release these days :)
I'm checking with the Apache Stats groups to make sure I'm reading the
graphs right. Then I'll at least post something to our site, which
other people might pickup. For example, InfoQ might want to do
something to promote Ian's book, and we could piggy back on that.
-Ted.
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Re: Has the WebWork rebranding to Struts2 been a failure?
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
+1
IMHO, the measure of success for a volunteer open source project is
whether some people can step back while other people step forward. In
the case of both WebWork and Struts, we've seen that happen, not just
once, but several times. And we saw it happen again with the release
of Struts 2.0.8.
Though, if someone did want to compare numbers, I'm thinking that our
download stats are as impressive as ever. :)
* http://people.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/projects/struts.html
HTH, Ted.
On 6/23/07, Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org> wrote:
> My quick response to this is you are missing the point. Struts is not a
> company, nor is it a product that we are trying to sell. It is a framework
> we, its developers and users, use to make our lives easier. As I've tried
> to say from the beginning - we aren't "rebranding" WebWork 2 as Struts 2,
> but merging development communities to create a new, evolved framework. My
> definition of success is to see developers from Struts 1 and WebWork 2
> working on the same codebase, pushing its vision further, and therefore,
> I've found the merger a solid success. Most of the WebWork 2 developers are
> very active in Struts 2 as are many of the Struts 1 developers. The current
> releases, headed by Struts and WebWork committers, are a testament to this.
>
>
> None of us are paid to work on Struts 2, so the more smart developers we
> have donating their precious time, the more the code evolves and the higher
> the quality. To be honest, Struts 1 development has really been rather slow
> the last few years, but this merger has helped ensured Struts 2 won't suffer
> the same fate. I know my day job has benefited from the work Struts 2
> committers and users have put into the 2.0.x releases, so whether the "Java
> community" recognizes the value of Struts 2 or not, I know my applications
> and users certainly have.
>
> Don
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Re: Has the WebWork rebranding to Struts2 been a failure?
Posted by Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org>.
My quick response to this is you are missing the point. Struts is not a
company, nor is it a product that we are trying to sell. It is a framework
we, its developers and users, use to make our lives easier. As I've tried
to say from the beginning - we aren't "rebranding" WebWork 2 as Struts 2,
but merging development communities to create a new, evolved framework. My
definition of success is to see developers from Struts 1 and WebWork 2
working on the same codebase, pushing its vision further, and therefore,
I've found the merger a solid success. Most of the WebWork 2 developers are
very active in Struts 2 as are many of the Struts 1 developers. The current
releases, headed by Struts and WebWork committers, are a testament to this.
None of us are paid to work on Struts 2, so the more smart developers we
have donating their precious time, the more the code evolves and the higher
the quality. To be honest, Struts 1 development has really been rather slow
the last few years, but this merger has helped ensured Struts 2 won't suffer
the same fate. I know my day job has benefited from the work Struts 2
committers and users have put into the 2.0.x releases, so whether the "Java
community" recognizes the value of Struts 2 or not, I know my applications
and users certainly have.
Don
On 6/23/07, Martin Gilday <ma...@imap.cc> wrote:
>
> This is something I have been thinking about for a while, but has been
> highlighted by Wicket recently graduating from the Apache Incubator.
> When checking out blogs, newsgroups, theserverside, infoq etc it has
> become apparent to me that Struts 2 is still very much thought of as
> just Struts 1++, in a negative sense. When you see posts by people
> saying which web frameworks they have tried out because they were
> unhappy with Struts 1 then Wicket, Click, Tapestry are mentioned. Struts
> 2, however, is always seemingly dismissed without a look, as they feel
> all the problems they have with Struts 1 must still exist. Of course
> there is plently on info on the wiki detailing why they are different,
> but if they have already crossed it off the list before getting to the
> site it isn't much use in getting the message across. I'm not really
> sure what my point is as the name is the name now. Maybe some positive
> marketing such as some blog posting about the improvements and
> differences, or in release annoucements really strongly detailing them.
>
> What do you think about Struts 2 current image in the Java community?
>
> Thanks,
> Martin.
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
Re: Has the WebWork rebranding to Struts2 been a failure?
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
It's been amusing to me that the people slamming Struts (not saying you
Martin, talking generically) for this, that and the other thing are the
same people making their living developing applications on it... it's
also amusing that those same people won't get off their collective arses
and come up with something better themselves.
It's funny to me sitting here because I understand asking the question
you've asked because I used to have the same frame of mind, and that's
really what this is about, as Don and Ted have succinctly said. Struts,
or any other open-source project (generally, always some exceptions)
aren't about market share, or making a name for anybody, it's about a
group of people with similar goals developing software that THEY
THEMSELVES want to use. If 100,000 people see it and say "hey, that's
cool" and use it, that's great. If absolutely nobody likes and and
nobody decides to use it, as long as the original creators like it and
use it, than that project can rightly be deemed a success. Such is the
case for Struts2.
So long as there are developers willing to work on S2, who are using it
themselves (to some degree... for example, I've only used it a little
bit myself yet I've contributed a plugin already) then it's doing
exactly what its supposed to be doing. Whether the download count is
high or low, whether this blog or that said good things or bad things
about it, whether everyone is using it or no one is, there's an active,
thriving developer community made up of people who are using S2
themselves and helping each other, so everything is as it should be.
And about those who have a negative impression of Struts... people are
quick to try and knock down what's on top. There has been a growing
backlash against Struts for some time, for whatever reasons... lots more
people making negative comments about it. But, as I said at the
beginning, it's amazing to me that those same people very often are
using Struts all the time to make a living, and not themselves trying to
jump in and make it better, or coming up with something else entirely
that's better.
Also, I dare say a great many of the people complaining about S2 now
haven't given it much time or attention and have simply assumed it's
S1++. That's just foolish.
Finally, having all these alternative frameworks is fantastic, but until
one of them has more than a trivial user base, comparing them to Struts
in terms of success or failure isn't even a reasonable thing to do IMO.
It's kind of like saying one of Jupiter's moons has a greater
gravitational pull than Jupiter just because the moon looks prettier!
Let the moon gain *significant* mass first, then we'll compare :) (hehe,
interestingly, the mass-gaining analogy works equally as well if you
replace Jupiter with your wife and the moon with that hot blond down the
street that hasn't had 4 kids yet! ... and for the women on the list,
replace Jupiter with your husband and the moon with Brad Pitt before he
settles down, loses his money and gets a beer gut!)
A while back, I learned to just shut my mouth, not bitch about
everything and just write the code I wanted to write, that I wanted to
use, put it out there and let whatever happens just happen. I'm
actually developing my own framework for precisely this reason. This is
a lesson the people complaining all the time need to learn, and this is
also ultimately what the Struts community is actually doing, just under
a more well-known name and with greater visibility than most. So, I
understand the thought process that goes into asking the question you
asked, and I also understand now why it's a fundamentally flawed
question to ask in the first place.
Frank
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM/Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
Author of "Practical Ajax Projects With Java Technology"
(2006, Apress, ISBN 1-59059-695-1)
and "JavaScript, DOM Scripting and Ajax Projects"
(2007, Apress, ISBN 1-59059-816-4)
Java Web Parts - http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
Martin Gilday wrote:
> This is something I have been thinking about for a while, but has been
> highlighted by Wicket recently graduating from the Apache Incubator.
> When checking out blogs, newsgroups, theserverside, infoq etc it has
> become apparent to me that Struts 2 is still very much thought of as
> just Struts 1++, in a negative sense. When you see posts by people
> saying which web frameworks they have tried out because they were
> unhappy with Struts 1 then Wicket, Click, Tapestry are mentioned. Struts
> 2, however, is always seemingly dismissed without a look, as they feel
> all the problems they have with Struts 1 must still exist. Of course
> there is plently on info on the wiki detailing why they are different,
> but if they have already crossed it off the list before getting to the
> site it isn't much use in getting the message across. I'm not really
> sure what my point is as the name is the name now. Maybe some positive
> marketing such as some blog posting about the improvements and
> differences, or in release annoucements really strongly detailing them.
>
> What do you think about Struts 2 current image in the Java community?
>
> Thanks,
> Martin.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
>
>
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