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Posted to dev@subversion.apache.org by Eric Hanchrow <of...@blarg.net> on 2007/10/18 15:13:39 UTC
How to make the Windows binaries easier to find on svn's main page
People on #svn often ask "where can I find a Windows command-line
client?". They either cannot find the package for Windows, or, worse,
aren't even sure if one exists. I suspect this is because the layout
of our web site is too complex.
Here's what someone has to do to find the Windows package:
* Notice the "Downloads" link on the left side of the main page
(http://subversion.tigris.org/). Granted, this isn't too tough :-)
* Scroll through rather a lot of (to them, irrelevant) stuff on
http://subversion.tigris.org/project_packages.html until they see
"Windows NT, 2000, XP and 2003"
* Read a bunch of stuff about Apache and Berkeley DB that may well be
irrelevant
* Choose between these options:
** Win32 packages built against Apache 2.0
** Win32 packages built against Apache 2.2
** ... a friendly Installer program (I suspect this is what 80% of these people really want)
** TSVN
** CollabNet Subversion
** VisualSVN
* If they chose "Win32 packages built against Apache 2.2", they now
have to scroll through a long list
(http://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/ProjectDocumentList?folderID=8100&expandFolder=8100&folderID=8100)
of files, of which the one they actually want is either not present
at all (if they want an installer package), or is present in
multiple versions, scattered apparently at random through the list
(if they want a zip file containing the binaries)
* If they chose "Win32 packages built against Apache 2.0", they're in
luck: the package they want is the third item on that page
(http://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/ProjectDocumentList?folderID=91)
Now, I realize that none of this is rocket science, but it strikes me
as being more complex than it could be -- and (in Karl's words) raises
a "barrier to entry". Therefore I suggest:
* On project_packages.html, move the "friendly Installer program" item
to the top of the list that it's in
* Sequester older versions into an "older versions" folder, so that,
on the two pages I cited above, people see only links to the latest
version, plus that one "older versions" folder
* Ensure that the *-setup.exe files always appear first in the list
(they are in fact first in the list now, but I don't know if that's
because of a policy, which would be good, or if instead they appear
there merely by chance, which would be bad)
* When a page has no *-setup.exe files, as is the case for binaries
built against Apache 2.2, give the coveted first spot to
svn-win32-x.y.z.zip, pushing less-needed files (such as the Python
bindings, development packages, and so on) further down the list
* Provide installer packages for Apache 2.2 binaries. I realize that
these are contributed by volunteers, but since we're presumably
auto-building Windows binaries anyway, would it be that hard to
incorporate an installer into the build?
* Have three links on the front page -- http://subversion.tigris.org/
-- that say "download now for Windows, OS X, Source", leading
directly to the latest installer for Windows, .dmg for OS X, and
source tarball, respectively.
I don't know how hard it would be to do all of the above, but I
strongly suspect it would make the lives of our Windows users easier.
Thanks.
--
Firefox: The one that blocks all the schmutz
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Re: How to make the Windows binaries easier to find on svn's main page
Posted by David Glasser <gl...@davidglasser.net>.
On 10/21/07, Karl Fogel <kf...@red-bean.com> wrote:
> "Hyrum K. Wright" <hy...@mail.utexas.edu> writes:
> > Which raises another question: why do we ship www/ with release
> > tarballs? If we cleanup after we branch, the copy of www/ that ships
> > will be significantly different than the one that's live. And we
> > rarely, if ever, backport changes to www/ www/ adds significant size to
> > the source distribution (~15%), but I've never known anybody to actually
> > use it.
>
> We probably wouldn't hear of anyone using it, even if they were using
> it, but no matter: +1 on booting it out of the released tarball.
> Better to have people forced to go to the up-to-date live web site.
+1. Subversion 1.4.5 ships with a www/index.html claiming that 1.3.1
is the latest release. This is just a joke.
--dave
--
David Glasser | glasser@davidglasser.net | http://www.davidglasser.net/
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Re: How to make the Windows binaries easier to find on svn's main page
Posted by Karl Fogel <kf...@red-bean.com>.
"Hyrum K. Wright" <hy...@mail.utexas.edu> writes:
> Which raises another question: why do we ship www/ with release
> tarballs? If we cleanup after we branch, the copy of www/ that ships
> will be significantly different than the one that's live. And we
> rarely, if ever, backport changes to www/ www/ adds significant size to
> the source distribution (~15%), but I've never known anybody to actually
> use it.
We probably wouldn't hear of anyone using it, even if they were using
it, but no matter: +1 on booting it out of the released tarball.
Better to have people forced to go to the up-to-date live web site.
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Re: How to make the Windows binaries easier to find on svn's main
page
Posted by "Hyrum K. Wright" <hy...@mail.utexas.edu>.
Karl Fogel wrote:
> Eric, not only a huge +1 on your suggested improvements, but also on
> any other usability changes or opportunistic bringings-up-to-date you
> feel like doing along the way on our web site.
>
> After 1.5 goes into release testing, I've been planning to do some
> serious web site cleanup. It's dumb that the front page still
> emphasizes replacing CVS; we're way beyond that now.
+1 on a serious website cleanup.
Which raises another question: why do we ship www/ with release
tarballs? If we cleanup after we branch, the copy of www/ that ships
will be significantly different than the one that's live. And we
rarely, if ever, backport changes to www/ www/ adds significant size to
the source distribution (~15%), but I've never known anybody to actually
use it.
-Hyrum
Re: How to make the Windows binaries easier to find on svn's main page
Posted by Karl Fogel <kf...@red-bean.com>.
Eric, not only a huge +1 on your suggested improvements, but also on
any other usability changes or opportunistic bringings-up-to-date you
feel like doing along the way on our web site.
After 1.5 goes into release testing, I've been planning to do some
serious web site cleanup. It's dumb that the front page still
emphasizes replacing CVS; we're way beyond that now.
-Karl
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Re: How to make the Windows binaries easier to find on svn's main page
Posted by Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@red-bean.com>.
+10e9
On 10/18/07, Eric Hanchrow <of...@blarg.net> wrote:
> People on #svn often ask "where can I find a Windows command-line
> client?". They either cannot find the package for Windows, or, worse,
> aren't even sure if one exists. I suspect this is because the layout
> of our web site is too complex.
>
> Here's what someone has to do to find the Windows package:
>
> * Notice the "Downloads" link on the left side of the main page
> (http://subversion.tigris.org/). Granted, this isn't too tough :-)
>
> * Scroll through rather a lot of (to them, irrelevant) stuff on
> http://subversion.tigris.org/project_packages.html until they see
> "Windows NT, 2000, XP and 2003"
>
> * Read a bunch of stuff about Apache and Berkeley DB that may well be
> irrelevant
>
> * Choose between these options:
>
> ** Win32 packages built against Apache 2.0
> ** Win32 packages built against Apache 2.2
> ** ... a friendly Installer program (I suspect this is what 80% of these people really want)
> ** TSVN
> ** CollabNet Subversion
> ** VisualSVN
>
> * If they chose "Win32 packages built against Apache 2.2", they now
> have to scroll through a long list
> (http://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/ProjectDocumentList?folderID=8100&expandFolder=8100&folderID=8100)
> of files, of which the one they actually want is either not present
> at all (if they want an installer package), or is present in
> multiple versions, scattered apparently at random through the list
> (if they want a zip file containing the binaries)
>
> * If they chose "Win32 packages built against Apache 2.0", they're in
> luck: the package they want is the third item on that page
> (http://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/ProjectDocumentList?folderID=91)
>
> Now, I realize that none of this is rocket science, but it strikes me
> as being more complex than it could be -- and (in Karl's words) raises
> a "barrier to entry". Therefore I suggest:
>
> * On project_packages.html, move the "friendly Installer program" item
> to the top of the list that it's in
>
> * Sequester older versions into an "older versions" folder, so that,
> on the two pages I cited above, people see only links to the latest
> version, plus that one "older versions" folder
>
> * Ensure that the *-setup.exe files always appear first in the list
> (they are in fact first in the list now, but I don't know if that's
> because of a policy, which would be good, or if instead they appear
> there merely by chance, which would be bad)
>
> * When a page has no *-setup.exe files, as is the case for binaries
> built against Apache 2.2, give the coveted first spot to
> svn-win32-x.y.z.zip, pushing less-needed files (such as the Python
> bindings, development packages, and so on) further down the list
>
> * Provide installer packages for Apache 2.2 binaries. I realize that
> these are contributed by volunteers, but since we're presumably
> auto-building Windows binaries anyway, would it be that hard to
> incorporate an installer into the build?
>
> * Have three links on the front page -- http://subversion.tigris.org/
> -- that say "download now for Windows, OS X, Source", leading
> directly to the latest installer for Windows, .dmg for OS X, and
> source tarball, respectively.
>
> I don't know how hard it would be to do all of the above, but I
> strongly suspect it would make the lives of our Windows users easier.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Firefox: The one that blocks all the schmutz
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@subversion.tigris.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@subversion.tigris.org
>
>
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Re: How to make the Windows binaries easier to find on svn's main
page
Posted by Blair Zajac <bl...@orcaware.com>.
D.J. Heap wrote:
> On 10/18/07, Eric Hanchrow <of...@blarg.net> wrote:
>> People on #svn often ask "where can I find a Windows command-line
>> client?". They either cannot find the package for Windows, or, worse,
>> aren't even sure if one exists. I suspect this is because the layout
>> of our web site is too complex.
>>
> [snip]
>> * Provide installer packages for Apache 2.2 binaries. I realize that
>> these are contributed by volunteers, but since we're presumably
>> auto-building Windows binaries anyway, would it be that hard to
>> incorporate an installer into the build?
>>
>> * Have three links on the front page -- http://subversion.tigris.org/
>> -- that say "download now for Windows, OS X, Source", leading
>> directly to the latest installer for Windows, .dmg for OS X, and
>> source tarball, respectively.
>>
>> I don't know how hard it would be to do all of the above, but I
>> strongly suspect it would make the lives of our Windows users easier.
>
>
> All of these sound like great ideas to me - I am not likely to have
> any time to do much about them very soon, though.
>
> Unfortunately, the Windows release is not completely automated --
> especially the Python bindings packages. And I have no idea how the
> installer is built. No doubt it could be completely auotmated if
> someone puts some effort into it, which I've been wanting (but unable)
> to do for a while.
>
> I also would very much like to see newer dependencies used and drop
> pre-built binaries for Apache 2.0.x and Python < 2.5 sometime soon if
> reasonable. Building so many versions for all the various combos is
> time consuming and annoying.
Trac still recommends using Python 2.4 against Apache 2.0 for Windows, so I
suggest keeping those versions around for svn 1.5.
http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracOnWindows
Blair
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Re: How to make the Windows binaries easier to find on svn's main page
Posted by "D.J. Heap" <dj...@gmail.com>.
On 10/19/07, Lieven Govaerts <sv...@mobsol.be> wrote:
> D.J. Heap wrote:
> > On 10/18/07, Eric Hanchrow <of...@blarg.net> wrote:
> >> People on #svn often ask "where can I find a Windows command-line
> >> client?". They either cannot find the package for Windows, or, worse,
> >> aren't even sure if one exists. I suspect this is because the layout
> >> of our web site is too complex.
> >>
> > [snip]
> >> * Provide installer packages for Apache 2.2 binaries. I realize that
> >> these are contributed by volunteers, but since we're presumably
> >> auto-building Windows binaries anyway, would it be that hard to
> >> incorporate an installer into the build?
> ..
> >
> > Unfortunately, the Windows release is not completely automated --
> > especially the Python bindings packages. And I have no idea how the
> > installer is built. No doubt it could be completely auotmated if
> > someone puts some effort into it, which I've been wanting (but unable)
> > to do for a while.
> >
> Building the installer is already automated. If you install all
> dependencies correctly and extract the files from your zip package in
> the right place, packages/windows-innosetup/tools/mk_distro.bat will do
> all the rest.
>
Ah, excellent. We should add that to the make_dist.py packager script
then -- I'll look at doing that as soon as I can. I also want to add
the python bindings packaging stuff David James wrote into that too,
but I'm not sure exactly when I'll have time to do much.
DJ
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Re: How to make the Windows binaries easier to find on svn's main
page
Posted by Lieven Govaerts <sv...@mobsol.be>.
D.J. Heap wrote:
> On 10/18/07, Eric Hanchrow <of...@blarg.net> wrote:
>> People on #svn often ask "where can I find a Windows command-line
>> client?". They either cannot find the package for Windows, or, worse,
>> aren't even sure if one exists. I suspect this is because the layout
>> of our web site is too complex.
>>
> [snip]
>> * Provide installer packages for Apache 2.2 binaries. I realize that
>> these are contributed by volunteers, but since we're presumably
>> auto-building Windows binaries anyway, would it be that hard to
>> incorporate an installer into the build?
..
>
> Unfortunately, the Windows release is not completely automated --
> especially the Python bindings packages. And I have no idea how the
> installer is built. No doubt it could be completely auotmated if
> someone puts some effort into it, which I've been wanting (but unable)
> to do for a while.
>
Building the installer is already automated. If you install all
dependencies correctly and extract the files from your zip package in
the right place, packages/windows-innosetup/tools/mk_distro.bat will do
all the rest.
Lieven
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Re: How to make the Windows binaries easier to find on svn's main page
Posted by "D.J. Heap" <dj...@gmail.com>.
On 10/18/07, Eric Hanchrow <of...@blarg.net> wrote:
> People on #svn often ask "where can I find a Windows command-line
> client?". They either cannot find the package for Windows, or, worse,
> aren't even sure if one exists. I suspect this is because the layout
> of our web site is too complex.
>
[snip]
>
> * Provide installer packages for Apache 2.2 binaries. I realize that
> these are contributed by volunteers, but since we're presumably
> auto-building Windows binaries anyway, would it be that hard to
> incorporate an installer into the build?
>
> * Have three links on the front page -- http://subversion.tigris.org/
> -- that say "download now for Windows, OS X, Source", leading
> directly to the latest installer for Windows, .dmg for OS X, and
> source tarball, respectively.
>
> I don't know how hard it would be to do all of the above, but I
> strongly suspect it would make the lives of our Windows users easier.
All of these sound like great ideas to me - I am not likely to have
any time to do much about them very soon, though.
Unfortunately, the Windows release is not completely automated --
especially the Python bindings packages. And I have no idea how the
installer is built. No doubt it could be completely auotmated if
someone puts some effort into it, which I've been wanting (but unable)
to do for a while.
I also would very much like to see newer dependencies used and drop
pre-built binaries for Apache 2.0.x and Python < 2.5 sometime soon if
reasonable. Building so many versions for all the various combos is
time consuming and annoying.
Does anyone know if tigris keeps stats on what's been downloaded so we
could gauge what's really being used?
DJ
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