MinTC, "terrible rudeness", persistence

["Christopher K. St. John" <ck...@distributopia.com>]

 I've been informed by private email that I am "terribly
rude" for making announcements of MinTC releases on the
tomcat-dev list, and that I should not make any futher
announcements. 

 So that's it then? I've been kicked off tomcat-dev (how
does that work on an open source project!?) because I've
offended someone by writing code they don't like!?!?

 This is a bit of a problem for me, as MinTC is, technically,
a version of Catalina, and should be a perfectly appropriate
topic for tomcat-dev. Especially when it's one message every
few weeks.

 MinTC is certainly not a mainline version of Tomcat 4, but
it shares a significant amount of (unforked) code, and that
makes it important to seek a close relationship with the
people maintaining the codebase. It's a bit like sharing a
telephone booth with an 800 lb gorilla: it's a bit much to
hope to have any influence over what phone calls are made,
but at least you can hope to make your presence know so that
you don't get sat on.

 It's a dilemma: there's no point in having an antagonistic
relationship with the core Tomcat developers, that's worse
than nothing. But good grief! This is an opensource project!
MinTC is a version of Catalina, where the heck else am I 
going to discuss it? I'm contributing bug fixes and code back
to the core implementation, I'm helping to clean up the core
interfaces, I'm using the Catalina code, I'm doing documentation
work, but I'm not welcome? That seems so strange, and so sad.

 I'd like to get some feedback from someone other than the
person who wrote me privately. Craig? Could you give me an
opinion please? You seem to have the moral leadership role
here. Anybody else, please chime in. I'm horrified that I might
have been being unknowingly rude, but I'm at a loss to explain
how exactly I've caused such awful offense. I honestly don't
get it.

 Thanks, and please, as you think about your response, keep in
mind that the Catalina proposal docs specifically talk about 
people doing exactly what MinTC does under the Catalina umbrella.

 Thanks, and sorry for any inadvertant rudeness,

-cks

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Re: MinTC, "terrible rudeness", persistence

[co...@covalent.net]

I am also interested in MinTC.

But I must say I understand Remy's point about 'rudeness'. I don't
like bloat and I would love to see more modularization ( in
4.x and 3.x and most of the programs I know ). But this should
 be done by contributing to the project, not by creating 
a fork. 

And if MinTC is sucessfull ( and I hope it will ), we'll have 
all the problems in trying to merge or switch or fight.

So even if I don't like Valves and a lot of the 4.x API, I would
preffer to have any API changes/modularization/simplifications in the 
main branch, with pre-agreement from all parties - not in a form
of announcements of what has changed. Even if MinTC is a step 
forward, by adding more modularization and cleaning things 
- it is certainly not something we participate in at this 
moment.

And I personally believe what is private must remain private -
I would be very upset if an sensitive email I send in private to someone 
is made public ( even with the sender name removed - it was no doubt about 
who sent the mail, at least from the 'rudeness' clue :-).  

However, after things settle a bit I would be happy to propose
Cristopher as a commiter, and hope the changes and ideas will be discussed 
here and result in code changes in the main branch. 

Costin



On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Remy Maucherat wrote:

> >  I've been informed by private email that I am "terribly
> > rude" for making announcements of MinTC releases on the
> > tomcat-dev list, and that I should not make any futher
> > announcements.
> 
> Sorry, but I consider it rude to post announcements about other projects on
> the Tomcat mailing list.
> I attach the email since it is not public matter.
> 
> >  So that's it then? I've been kicked off tomcat-dev (how
> > does that work on an open source project!?) because I've
> > offended someone by writing code they don't like!?!?
> 
> I am indeed not interested in MinTC.
> MinTC has all the problems Catalina had before Coyote, with the only benefit
> being that it is smaller and would run on a few more Java platforms.
> 
> Remy
> 



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Re: MinTC, "terrible rudeness", persistence

[Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>]

>  I've been informed by private email that I am "terribly
> rude" for making announcements of MinTC releases on the
> tomcat-dev list, and that I should not make any futher
> announcements.

Sorry, but I consider it rude to post announcements about other projects on
the Tomcat mailing list.
I attach the email since it is not public matter.

>  So that's it then? I've been kicked off tomcat-dev (how
> does that work on an open source project!?) because I've
> offended someone by writing code they don't like!?!?

I am indeed not interested in MinTC.
MinTC has all the problems Catalina had before Coyote, with the only benefit
being that it is smaller and would run on a few more Java platforms.

Remy

Re: MinTC, "terrible rudeness", persistence

[Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>]

> Personally, I've rather enjoyed following MinTC's progress (OK, not really
> following, since I haven't actually looked at the code :).  I could see
how
> someone might think it rude to post the announcement on tomcat-user (since
> many people there are easily confused :), but IMHO MinTC is something that
> we should see more of on tomcat-dev, not less.
>
> MinTC is certainly not a competitor with Tomcat 4.x.  According to Costin,
> Tomcat 3.3 almost runs under J2ME (I haven't tried it), but MinTC is a
> different servlet spec than 3.3, so again, not a competitor.  I can't see
> any good reason to block MinTC announcements given that they certainly
> aren't abusing bandwidth.

Ok, fine, I'll stop complaining about them, then ;-)

Remy


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Re: MinTC, "terrible rudeness", persistence

[Bill Barker <wb...@wilshire.com>]

Personally, I've rather enjoyed following MinTC's progress (OK, not really
following, since I haven't actually looked at the code :).  I could see how
someone might think it rude to post the announcement on tomcat-user (since
many people there are easily confused :), but IMHO MinTC is something that
we should see more of on tomcat-dev, not less.

MinTC is certainly not a competitor with Tomcat 4.x.  According to Costin,
Tomcat 3.3 almost runs under J2ME (I haven't tried it), but MinTC is a
different servlet spec than 3.3, so again, not a competitor.  I can't see
any good reason to block MinTC announcements given that they certainly
aren't abusing bandwidth.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher K. St. John" <ck...@distributopia.com>
To: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 7:58 PM
Subject: MinTC, "terrible rudeness", persistence


>
>  I've been informed by private email that I am "terribly
> rude" for making announcements of MinTC releases on the
> tomcat-dev list, and that I should not make any futher
> announcements.
>
>  So that's it then? I've been kicked off tomcat-dev (how
> does that work on an open source project!?) because I've
> offended someone by writing code they don't like!?!?
>
>  This is a bit of a problem for me, as MinTC is, technically,
> a version of Catalina, and should be a perfectly appropriate
> topic for tomcat-dev. Especially when it's one message every
> few weeks.
>
>  MinTC is certainly not a mainline version of Tomcat 4, but
> it shares a significant amount of (unforked) code, and that
> makes it important to seek a close relationship with the
> people maintaining the codebase. It's a bit like sharing a
> telephone booth with an 800 lb gorilla: it's a bit much to
> hope to have any influence over what phone calls are made,
> but at least you can hope to make your presence know so that
> you don't get sat on.
>
>  It's a dilemma: there's no point in having an antagonistic
> relationship with the core Tomcat developers, that's worse
> than nothing. But good grief! This is an opensource project!
> MinTC is a version of Catalina, where the heck else am I
> going to discuss it? I'm contributing bug fixes and code back
> to the core implementation, I'm helping to clean up the core
> interfaces, I'm using the Catalina code, I'm doing documentation
> work, but I'm not welcome? That seems so strange, and so sad.
>
>  I'd like to get some feedback from someone other than the
> person who wrote me privately. Craig? Could you give me an
> opinion please? You seem to have the moral leadership role
> here. Anybody else, please chime in. I'm horrified that I might
> have been being unknowingly rude, but I'm at a loss to explain
> how exactly I've caused such awful offense. I honestly don't
> get it.
>
>  Thanks, and please, as you think about your response, keep in
> mind that the Catalina proposal docs specifically talk about
> people doing exactly what MinTC does under the Catalina umbrella.
>
>  Thanks, and sorry for any inadvertant rudeness,
>
> -cks
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>


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Re: MinTC, "terrible rudeness", persistence

[Rolf Veen <ro...@helide.com>]

Remy Maucherat wrote:

> If many people want to see MinTC here, then it will happen even if I may not
> like it.


+1 to MinTC here. Lets be friendly. And open.
[ +1 * notCommiter == 0, I know ]

Rolf.


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Re: MinTC, "terrible rudeness", persistence

[Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>]

> I don't known well Tomcat 4
> but I search for a Servlet container which:
> - can be used as a component of an application
>   but does not impose a 'web server' structure
>   to the application
> - is compliant with the latest Servlet standart
>   (~ is an implementation reference)
> - disallows filesystem access
> - still lightweight

MinTC being very similar to Catalina, it wouldn't help A much. I don't know
if it can run with a security manager (point C); it adds significant
complexity, so I could imagine that being left out.
B is ok. I guess it is more lightweight, and hopefully it starts up faster
(point D).

> Thus, I'm interrested in MinTC.
> I'm a newbie but I don't understand
> why it could be harmful for Tomcat 4
> since it seems that MinTC use a big part of Catalina
> and it could thus enhance Tomcat 4
> by the diversified use of its libraries.

As I said, I don't see a need for it. It uses and enocourages to use some
APIs I'd like to attempt to remove or modify in the future (mostly, it's the
Catalina Request/Response API). Of course, it may be already way too late to
be able to fix this (so in the meantime, I've been doing workarounds; that's
Coyote) ;-)

I also still think that Tomcat 3.3 addresses the "market" MinTC wants to
address better (with the very artificial problem of the Servlet API version
support, but this is a double edged sword, as it requires the Java2
collections).

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
:)
If many people want to see MinTC here, then it will happen even if I may not
like it.

Remy


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Re: MinTC, "terrible rudeness", persistence

[Jerome Bouat <je...@xrce.xerox.com>]

I don't known well Tomcat 4
but I search for a Servlet container which:
- can be used as a component of an application
  but does not impose a 'web server' structure
  to the application
- is compliant with the latest Servlet standart
  (~ is an implementation reference)
- disallows filesystem access
- still lightweight

Thus, I'm interrested in MinTC.
I'm a newbie but I don't understand
why it could be harmful for Tomcat 4
since it seems that MinTC use a big part of Catalina
and it could thus enhance Tomcat 4
by the diversified use of its libraries.

Jerome

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Pandora's box / can of worms etc.

[Paul Wallace <pa...@mustang-technologies.com>]

What is MinTC? Where can I get information on it?


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Re: MinTC, "terrible rudeness", persistence

[Bojan Smojver <bo...@binarix.com>]

On Fri, 2002-04-19 at 13:37, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:

> Even if the consensus is that these things were off topic, one way to
> certainly make them on topic would be a discussion of whether you'd want
> to propose contributing MinTC to the standard distribution (so that it
> could be built from the same source repository, and probably packaged
> separately) -- either now or when you get a little further along at
> complete success in passing all the tests.

Fully agree. Definitely the way to go.

Bojan


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Re: MinTC, "terrible rudeness", persistence

["Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>]

Personally, I don't have any problem with occasional announcements of
interesting things related to Tomcat on this list, and MinTC certainly
qualifies as "interesting" in my book!

As for the community as a whole, consensus usually forms rapidly when the
issue is aired publicly on the mailing list (instead of directly to the
poster).  That way, we'd quickly find out whether the person complaining
was really voicing a common sentiment, or out smoking something.  Does
whoever was concerned about this want to fess up and start that
discussion?

Even if the consensus is that these things were off topic, one way to
certainly make them on topic would be a discussion of whether you'd want
to propose contributing MinTC to the standard distribution (so that it
could be built from the same source repository, and probably packaged
separately) -- either now or when you get a little further along at
complete success in passing all the tests.

I'd also like to take the opportunity to thank you publicly for your many
contributions and suggestions -- one of the best things about my
experience with Tomcat has always been seeing the people who care deeply
enough about it to help improve its quality, instead of just whining and
complaining.

Craig


On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Christopher K.  St.  John wrote:

> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 19:58:26 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Christopher K.  St.  John <ck...@distributopia.com>
> Reply-To: Tomcat Developers List <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: tomcat-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: MinTC, "terrible rudeness", persistence
>
>
>  I've been informed by private email that I am "terribly
> rude" for making announcements of MinTC releases on the
> tomcat-dev list, and that I should not make any futher
> announcements.
>
>  So that's it then? I've been kicked off tomcat-dev (how
> does that work on an open source project!?) because I've
> offended someone by writing code they don't like!?!?
>
>  This is a bit of a problem for me, as MinTC is, technically,
> a version of Catalina, and should be a perfectly appropriate
> topic for tomcat-dev. Especially when it's one message every
> few weeks.
>
>  MinTC is certainly not a mainline version of Tomcat 4, but
> it shares a significant amount of (unforked) code, and that
> makes it important to seek a close relationship with the
> people maintaining the codebase. It's a bit like sharing a
> telephone booth with an 800 lb gorilla: it's a bit much to
> hope to have any influence over what phone calls are made,
> but at least you can hope to make your presence know so that
> you don't get sat on.
>
>  It's a dilemma: there's no point in having an antagonistic
> relationship with the core Tomcat developers, that's worse
> than nothing. But good grief! This is an opensource project!
> MinTC is a version of Catalina, where the heck else am I
> going to discuss it? I'm contributing bug fixes and code back
> to the core implementation, I'm helping to clean up the core
> interfaces, I'm using the Catalina code, I'm doing documentation
> work, but I'm not welcome? That seems so strange, and so sad.
>
>  I'd like to get some feedback from someone other than the
> person who wrote me privately. Craig? Could you give me an
> opinion please? You seem to have the moral leadership role
> here. Anybody else, please chime in. I'm horrified that I might
> have been being unknowingly rude, but I'm at a loss to explain
> how exactly I've caused such awful offense. I honestly don't
> get it.
>
>  Thanks, and please, as you think about your response, keep in
> mind that the Catalina proposal docs specifically talk about
> people doing exactly what MinTC does under the Catalina umbrella.
>
>  Thanks, and sorry for any inadvertant rudeness,
>
> -cks
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>


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