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Posted to dev@community.apache.org by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> on 2015/06/30 13:01:21 UTC
Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
Hi,
Someone mentioned to me that they find the first paragraph of
http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html overly broad,
and I tend to agree.
That paragraph says "this code of conduct governs how we behave in any
forum and whenever we will be judged by our actions" which implies
that it also applies outside of "ASF territory" - I don't think that's
appropriate. The next paragraph mentions "spaces managed by the Apache
Software Foundation" which I find much more appropriate, maybe
expanded with "and whenever we represent the ASF".
The reasoning is that we can only speak about our own territory.
As a simple example, putting your hand on someone's shoulder while
talking to them is totally welcome in some cultures while considered
"unwelcome sexual attention" (to reuse the words of that document) in
others. We might ask people to refrain from doing that in our
multi-cultural environment where we need to go down to some common
denominator of acceptable behavior, but we can't blame them for doing
that where it's culturally acceptable and even expected. The same goes
with profanity, where the acceptable level varies immensely between
cultures.
So I think it's good to restrict our code of conduct to our own territory.
I suggest reworking the first few paragraphs as follows, to clarify that:
*** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
published ASF anti-harassment policy.
We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims
any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
*** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
What do people think?
-Bertrand
Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
Posted by Christopher <ct...@apache.org>.
+1
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015, 07:01 Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Someone mentioned to me that they find the first paragraph of
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html overly broad,
> and I tend to agree.
>
> That paragraph says "this code of conduct governs how we behave in any
> forum and whenever we will be judged by our actions" which implies
> that it also applies outside of "ASF territory" - I don't think that's
> appropriate. The next paragraph mentions "spaces managed by the Apache
> Software Foundation" which I find much more appropriate, maybe
> expanded with "and whenever we represent the ASF".
>
> The reasoning is that we can only speak about our own territory.
>
> As a simple example, putting your hand on someone's shoulder while
> talking to them is totally welcome in some cultures while considered
> "unwelcome sexual attention" (to reuse the words of that document) in
> others. We might ask people to refrain from doing that in our
> multi-cultural environment where we need to go down to some common
> denominator of acceptable behavior, but we can't blame them for doing
> that where it's culturally acceptable and even expected. The same goes
> with profanity, where the acceptable level varies immensely between
> cultures.
>
> So I think it's good to restrict our code of conduct to our own territory.
>
> I suggest reworking the first few paragraphs as follows, to clarify that:
>
> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
> is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> published ASF anti-harassment policy.
>
> We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims
> any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
>
> This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>
> What do people think?
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 6:05 PM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...when at least one of its members in more than one occasion states that
> projects are independent (of the ASF) regarding how they conduct their
> business - except for the license aspect - it is rendered a paper tiger...
ASF projects are largely independent *when it comes to technical
matters*, but as far as governance there's a number of invariants that
are ASF-wide.
This code of conduct is one of those invariants.
-Bertrand
Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On 2 July 2015 at 18:05, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It is a good thing that the board and the President regard the Code of
> Conduct page as an official ASF policy and expect others to follow it, but
> when at least one of its members in more than one occasion states that
> projects are independent (of the ASF) regarding how they conduct their
> business - except for the license aspect - it is rendered a paper tiger...
>
I think you are driving a simple statement far longer than intended. We do
not (luckily) have many polices at ASF, but of course a project must
follow those.
A project can independent, make extra policies or even harden the ASF
policies (e.g. voting rules).
A project that act totally independent of ASF only following the license
rules,
cannot really be a ASF project.
> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office policing
> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their
> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to incorporate
> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
>
Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make sure that
exactly this happened.
I for one, does not see things as negative as you signal. Things can always
improve, but please not in the direction, that board installs a policy
police.
We, the committers, are those "controlling" that polices are kept,not the
board or any exec office.
just my opinion.
rgds
jan i.
>
> Something to think about when making statement like these....
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> Op donderdag 2 juli 2015 heeft Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org> het
> volgende geschreven:
>
> > On 6/30/15 2:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On 06/30/2015 12:37 PM, Stefan Reich wrote:
> > >> I'm almost tired of criticizing so much, but... I think a "code of
> > >> conduct"
> > >> is evil legalese and should be abandoned.
> > >>
> > >> Like Jesus said: "Love is the only law you need."
> > >
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, that hasn't worked out for us so far.
> >
> > More to the point, the board and the President have made it clear that
> > the current CoC is an official ASF policy, so for interactions at ASF
> > events or on our mailing lists, we expect people to follow it when
> > working here on Apache projects.
> >
> > Obviously, other organizations or individuals can choose to use (or not)
> > their own CoCs for their own projects, but this is the one we've chosen
> > here.
> >
> > - Shane
> >
> > >
> > > A CoC serves several real needs. Publicly stating that we have such an
> > > expectation makes the ASF more welcoming to joiners. It also makes
> > > explicit some of the expectations for people who bull through life
> > > without thinking about their interactions.
> > >
> > > Google for 'why we need a code of conduct' and then click on a link at
> > > random and you'll get a more articulate statement of why this is
> > > absolutely critical to an organization like ours that spans cultures,
> > > timezones, projects, and many other borders.
> > >
> > > It is simply not the case that people just naturally know the right way
> > > to behave. And it is the case that we need to have given careful
> thought
> > > to what we're going to do about it when people are jerks.
> > >
> > > Even Jesus violently threw people out of the temple when they broke the
> > > code of conduct.
> > >
> > > --Rich
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Cheers
> > >> Stefan
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> > >> <bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>>
> > >>> Someone mentioned to me that they find the first paragraph of
> > >>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html overly broad,
> > >>> and I tend to agree.
> > >>>
> > >>> That paragraph says "this code of conduct governs how we behave in
> any
> > >>> forum and whenever we will be judged by our actions" which implies
> > >>> that it also applies outside of "ASF territory" - I don't think
> that's
> > >>> appropriate. The next paragraph mentions "spaces managed by the
> Apache
> > >>> Software Foundation" which I find much more appropriate, maybe
> > >>> expanded with "and whenever we represent the ASF".
> > >>>
> > >>> The reasoning is that we can only speak about our own territory.
> > >>>
> > >>> As a simple example, putting your hand on someone's shoulder while
> > >>> talking to them is totally welcome in some cultures while considered
> > >>> "unwelcome sexual attention" (to reuse the words of that document) in
> > >>> others. We might ask people to refrain from doing that in our
> > >>> multi-cultural environment where we need to go down to some common
> > >>> denominator of acceptable behavior, but we can't blame them for doing
> > >>> that where it's culturally acceptable and even expected. The same
> goes
> > >>> with profanity, where the acceptable level varies immensely between
> > >>> cultures.
> > >>>
> > >>> So I think it's good to restrict our code of conduct to our own
> > >>> territory.
> > >>>
> > >>> I suggest reworking the first few paragraphs as follows, to clarify
> > >>> that:
> > >>>
> > >>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > >>> This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> > >>> Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> > >>> lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > >>> communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct
> which
> > >>> is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> > >>> published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> > >>>
> > >>> We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > >>> participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or
> claims
> > >>> any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> > >>> activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> > >>>
> > >>> This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> > >>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > >>>
> > >>> What do people think?
> > >>> -Bertrand
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
RE: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
+1
You want an exec officer to be responsible for the CoC, it's the President.
Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: hedhman@gmail.com [mailto:hedhman@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Niclas Hedhman
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2015 12:14 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
As Jan is saying, this is simply not accurate.
"Official Policy" must be followed by all projects, and anyone can raise the concerns to various committees or board, when they think there is ongoing violation and no interest from a project to rectify it.
Legal Policy (which is not only that the project must use ALv2, but also about what can be dependent upon, how to package tarballs with LICENSE and NOTICE files, and policy around patents) is just one out of a handful policies that must be complied with, by ALL projects.
Branding and Code of Conduct are two other. How to package, sign, and distribute releases is another...
So, if "at least one of its members in more than one occasion states that projects are independent (of the ASF) regarding how they conduct their business" happens, then call that out for what it is...
Cheers
Niclas
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 6:05 PM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It is a good thing that the board and the President regard the Code of
> Conduct page as an official ASF policy and expect others to follow it,
> but when at least one of its members in more than one occasion states
> that projects are independent (of the ASF) regarding how they conduct
> their business - except for the license aspect - it is rendered a paper tiger...
>
> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office
> policing it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it
> in their bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not
> to incorporate it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement.
>
> Something to think about when making statement like these....
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> Op donderdag 2 juli 2015 heeft Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>
> het volgende geschreven:
>
> > On 6/30/15 2:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On 06/30/2015 12:37 PM, Stefan Reich wrote:
> > >> I'm almost tired of criticizing so much, but... I think a "code
> > >> of conduct"
> > >> is evil legalese and should be abandoned.
> > >>
> > >> Like Jesus said: "Love is the only law you need."
> > >
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, that hasn't worked out for us so far.
> >
> > More to the point, the board and the President have made it clear
> > that the current CoC is an official ASF policy, so for interactions
> > at ASF events or on our mailing lists, we expect people to follow it
> > when working here on Apache projects.
> >
> > Obviously, other organizations or individuals can choose to use (or
> > not) their own CoCs for their own projects, but this is the one
> > we've chosen here.
> >
> > - Shane
> >
> > >
> > > A CoC serves several real needs. Publicly stating that we have
> > > such an expectation makes the ASF more welcoming to joiners. It
> > > also makes explicit some of the expectations for people who bull
> > > through life without thinking about their interactions.
> > >
> > > Google for 'why we need a code of conduct' and then click on a
> > > link at random and you'll get a more articulate statement of why
> > > this is absolutely critical to an organization like ours that
> > > spans cultures, timezones, projects, and many other borders.
> > >
> > > It is simply not the case that people just naturally know the
> > > right way to behave. And it is the case that we need to have given
> > > careful
> thought
> > > to what we're going to do about it when people are jerks.
> > >
> > > Even Jesus violently threw people out of the temple when they
> > > broke the code of conduct.
> > >
> > > --Rich
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Cheers
> > >> Stefan
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> > >> <bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>>
> > >>> Someone mentioned to me that they find the first paragraph of
> > >>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html overly
> > >>> broad, and I tend to agree.
> > >>>
> > >>> That paragraph says "this code of conduct governs how we behave
> > >>> in
> any
> > >>> forum and whenever we will be judged by our actions" which
> > >>> implies that it also applies outside of "ASF territory" - I
> > >>> don't think
> that's
> > >>> appropriate. The next paragraph mentions "spaces managed by the
> Apache
> > >>> Software Foundation" which I find much more appropriate, maybe
> > >>> expanded with "and whenever we represent the ASF".
> > >>>
> > >>> The reasoning is that we can only speak about our own territory.
> > >>>
> > >>> As a simple example, putting your hand on someone's shoulder
> > >>> while talking to them is totally welcome in some cultures while
> > >>> considered "unwelcome sexual attention" (to reuse the words of
> > >>> that document) in others. We might ask people to refrain from
> > >>> doing that in our multi-cultural environment where we need to go
> > >>> down to some common denominator of acceptable behavior, but we
> > >>> can't blame them for doing that where it's culturally acceptable
> > >>> and even expected. The same
> goes
> > >>> with profanity, where the acceptable level varies immensely
> > >>> between cultures.
> > >>>
> > >>> So I think it's good to restrict our code of conduct to our own
> > >>> territory.
> > >>>
> > >>> I suggest reworking the first few paragraphs as follows, to
> > >>> clarify
> > >>> that:
> > >>>
> > >>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** This code of
> > >>> conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache Software
> > >>> Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing lists,
> > >>> issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > >>> communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct
> which
> > >>> is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified
> > >>> in the published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> > >>>
> > >>> We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > >>> participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or
> claims
> > >>> any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> > >>> activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> > >>>
> > >>> This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here
> > >>> on)
> > >>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > >>>
> > >>> What do people think?
> > >>> -Bertrand
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://zest.apache.org - New Energy for Java
Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
As Jan is saying, this is simply not accurate.
"Official Policy" must be followed by all projects, and anyone can raise
the concerns to various committees or board, when they think there is
ongoing violation and no interest from a project to rectify it.
Legal Policy (which is not only that the project must use ALv2, but also
about what can be dependent upon, how to package tarballs with LICENSE and
NOTICE files, and policy around patents) is just one out of a handful
policies that must be complied with, by ALL projects.
Branding and Code of Conduct are two other. How to package, sign, and
distribute releases is another...
So, if "at least one of its members in more than one occasion states that
projects are independent (of the ASF) regarding how they conduct their
business" happens, then call that out for what it is...
Cheers
Niclas
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 6:05 PM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It is a good thing that the board and the President regard the Code of
> Conduct page as an official ASF policy and expect others to follow it, but
> when at least one of its members in more than one occasion states that
> projects are independent (of the ASF) regarding how they conduct their
> business - except for the license aspect - it is rendered a paper tiger...
>
> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office policing
> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their
> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to incorporate
> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement.
>
> Something to think about when making statement like these....
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> Op donderdag 2 juli 2015 heeft Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org> het
> volgende geschreven:
>
> > On 6/30/15 2:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On 06/30/2015 12:37 PM, Stefan Reich wrote:
> > >> I'm almost tired of criticizing so much, but... I think a "code of
> > >> conduct"
> > >> is evil legalese and should be abandoned.
> > >>
> > >> Like Jesus said: "Love is the only law you need."
> > >
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, that hasn't worked out for us so far.
> >
> > More to the point, the board and the President have made it clear that
> > the current CoC is an official ASF policy, so for interactions at ASF
> > events or on our mailing lists, we expect people to follow it when
> > working here on Apache projects.
> >
> > Obviously, other organizations or individuals can choose to use (or not)
> > their own CoCs for their own projects, but this is the one we've chosen
> > here.
> >
> > - Shane
> >
> > >
> > > A CoC serves several real needs. Publicly stating that we have such an
> > > expectation makes the ASF more welcoming to joiners. It also makes
> > > explicit some of the expectations for people who bull through life
> > > without thinking about their interactions.
> > >
> > > Google for 'why we need a code of conduct' and then click on a link at
> > > random and you'll get a more articulate statement of why this is
> > > absolutely critical to an organization like ours that spans cultures,
> > > timezones, projects, and many other borders.
> > >
> > > It is simply not the case that people just naturally know the right way
> > > to behave. And it is the case that we need to have given careful
> thought
> > > to what we're going to do about it when people are jerks.
> > >
> > > Even Jesus violently threw people out of the temple when they broke the
> > > code of conduct.
> > >
> > > --Rich
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Cheers
> > >> Stefan
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> > >> <bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>>
> > >>> Someone mentioned to me that they find the first paragraph of
> > >>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html overly broad,
> > >>> and I tend to agree.
> > >>>
> > >>> That paragraph says "this code of conduct governs how we behave in
> any
> > >>> forum and whenever we will be judged by our actions" which implies
> > >>> that it also applies outside of "ASF territory" - I don't think
> that's
> > >>> appropriate. The next paragraph mentions "spaces managed by the
> Apache
> > >>> Software Foundation" which I find much more appropriate, maybe
> > >>> expanded with "and whenever we represent the ASF".
> > >>>
> > >>> The reasoning is that we can only speak about our own territory.
> > >>>
> > >>> As a simple example, putting your hand on someone's shoulder while
> > >>> talking to them is totally welcome in some cultures while considered
> > >>> "unwelcome sexual attention" (to reuse the words of that document) in
> > >>> others. We might ask people to refrain from doing that in our
> > >>> multi-cultural environment where we need to go down to some common
> > >>> denominator of acceptable behavior, but we can't blame them for doing
> > >>> that where it's culturally acceptable and even expected. The same
> goes
> > >>> with profanity, where the acceptable level varies immensely between
> > >>> cultures.
> > >>>
> > >>> So I think it's good to restrict our code of conduct to our own
> > >>> territory.
> > >>>
> > >>> I suggest reworking the first few paragraphs as follows, to clarify
> > >>> that:
> > >>>
> > >>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > >>> This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> > >>> Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> > >>> lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > >>> communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct
> which
> > >>> is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> > >>> published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> > >>>
> > >>> We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > >>> participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or
> claims
> > >>> any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> > >>> activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> > >>>
> > >>> This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> > >>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > >>>
> > >>> What do people think?
> > >>> -Bertrand
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://zest.apache.org - New Energy for Java
Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
It is a good thing that the board and the President regard the Code of
Conduct page as an official ASF policy and expect others to follow it, but
when at least one of its members in more than one occasion states that
projects are independent (of the ASF) regarding how they conduct their
business - except for the license aspect - it is rendered a paper tiger...
Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office policing
it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their
bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to incorporate
it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement.
Something to think about when making statement like these....
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
Op donderdag 2 juli 2015 heeft Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org> het
volgende geschreven:
> On 6/30/15 2:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 06/30/2015 12:37 PM, Stefan Reich wrote:
> >> I'm almost tired of criticizing so much, but... I think a "code of
> >> conduct"
> >> is evil legalese and should be abandoned.
> >>
> >> Like Jesus said: "Love is the only law you need."
> >
> >
> > Unfortunately, that hasn't worked out for us so far.
>
> More to the point, the board and the President have made it clear that
> the current CoC is an official ASF policy, so for interactions at ASF
> events or on our mailing lists, we expect people to follow it when
> working here on Apache projects.
>
> Obviously, other organizations or individuals can choose to use (or not)
> their own CoCs for their own projects, but this is the one we've chosen
> here.
>
> - Shane
>
> >
> > A CoC serves several real needs. Publicly stating that we have such an
> > expectation makes the ASF more welcoming to joiners. It also makes
> > explicit some of the expectations for people who bull through life
> > without thinking about their interactions.
> >
> > Google for 'why we need a code of conduct' and then click on a link at
> > random and you'll get a more articulate statement of why this is
> > absolutely critical to an organization like ours that spans cultures,
> > timezones, projects, and many other borders.
> >
> > It is simply not the case that people just naturally know the right way
> > to behave. And it is the case that we need to have given careful thought
> > to what we're going to do about it when people are jerks.
> >
> > Even Jesus violently threw people out of the temple when they broke the
> > code of conduct.
> >
> > --Rich
> >
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Stefan
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> >> <bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>
> >>> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> Someone mentioned to me that they find the first paragraph of
> >>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html overly broad,
> >>> and I tend to agree.
> >>>
> >>> That paragraph says "this code of conduct governs how we behave in any
> >>> forum and whenever we will be judged by our actions" which implies
> >>> that it also applies outside of "ASF territory" - I don't think that's
> >>> appropriate. The next paragraph mentions "spaces managed by the Apache
> >>> Software Foundation" which I find much more appropriate, maybe
> >>> expanded with "and whenever we represent the ASF".
> >>>
> >>> The reasoning is that we can only speak about our own territory.
> >>>
> >>> As a simple example, putting your hand on someone's shoulder while
> >>> talking to them is totally welcome in some cultures while considered
> >>> "unwelcome sexual attention" (to reuse the words of that document) in
> >>> others. We might ask people to refrain from doing that in our
> >>> multi-cultural environment where we need to go down to some common
> >>> denominator of acceptable behavior, but we can't blame them for doing
> >>> that where it's culturally acceptable and even expected. The same goes
> >>> with profanity, where the acceptable level varies immensely between
> >>> cultures.
> >>>
> >>> So I think it's good to restrict our code of conduct to our own
> >>> territory.
> >>>
> >>> I suggest reworking the first few paragraphs as follows, to clarify
> >>> that:
> >>>
> >>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> >>> This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> >>> Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> >>> lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> >>> communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
> >>> is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> >>> published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> >>>
> >>> We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> >>> participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims
> >>> any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> >>> activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> >>>
> >>> This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> >>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> >>>
> >>> What do people think?
> >>> -Bertrand
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
--
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
On 6/30/15 2:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
>
>
> On 06/30/2015 12:37 PM, Stefan Reich wrote:
>> I'm almost tired of criticizing so much, but... I think a "code of
>> conduct"
>> is evil legalese and should be abandoned.
>>
>> Like Jesus said: "Love is the only law you need."
>
>
> Unfortunately, that hasn't worked out for us so far.
More to the point, the board and the President have made it clear that
the current CoC is an official ASF policy, so for interactions at ASF
events or on our mailing lists, we expect people to follow it when
working here on Apache projects.
Obviously, other organizations or individuals can choose to use (or not)
their own CoCs for their own projects, but this is the one we've chosen
here.
- Shane
>
> A CoC serves several real needs. Publicly stating that we have such an
> expectation makes the ASF more welcoming to joiners. It also makes
> explicit some of the expectations for people who bull through life
> without thinking about their interactions.
>
> Google for 'why we need a code of conduct' and then click on a link at
> random and you'll get a more articulate statement of why this is
> absolutely critical to an organization like ours that spans cultures,
> timezones, projects, and many other borders.
>
> It is simply not the case that people just naturally know the right way
> to behave. And it is the case that we need to have given careful thought
> to what we're going to do about it when people are jerks.
>
> Even Jesus violently threw people out of the temple when they broke the
> code of conduct.
>
> --Rich
>
>>
>> Cheers
>> Stefan
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>> <bdelacretaz@apache.org
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Someone mentioned to me that they find the first paragraph of
>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html overly broad,
>>> and I tend to agree.
>>>
>>> That paragraph says "this code of conduct governs how we behave in any
>>> forum and whenever we will be judged by our actions" which implies
>>> that it also applies outside of "ASF territory" - I don't think that's
>>> appropriate. The next paragraph mentions "spaces managed by the Apache
>>> Software Foundation" which I find much more appropriate, maybe
>>> expanded with "and whenever we represent the ASF".
>>>
>>> The reasoning is that we can only speak about our own territory.
>>>
>>> As a simple example, putting your hand on someone's shoulder while
>>> talking to them is totally welcome in some cultures while considered
>>> "unwelcome sexual attention" (to reuse the words of that document) in
>>> others. We might ask people to refrain from doing that in our
>>> multi-cultural environment where we need to go down to some common
>>> denominator of acceptable behavior, but we can't blame them for doing
>>> that where it's culturally acceptable and even expected. The same goes
>>> with profanity, where the acceptable level varies immensely between
>>> cultures.
>>>
>>> So I think it's good to restrict our code of conduct to our own
>>> territory.
>>>
>>> I suggest reworking the first few paragraphs as follows, to clarify
>>> that:
>>>
>>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>>> This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
>>> Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
>>> lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
>>> communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
>>> is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
>>> published ASF anti-harassment policy.
>>>
>>> We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
>>> participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims
>>> any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
>>> activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
>>>
>>> This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
>>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>>>
>>> What do people think?
>>> -Bertrand
>>>
>>
>
>
Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On 06/30/2015 12:37 PM, Stefan Reich wrote:
> I'm almost tired of criticizing so much, but... I think a "code of conduct"
> is evil legalese and should be abandoned.
>
> Like Jesus said: "Love is the only law you need."
Unfortunately, that hasn't worked out for us so far.
A CoC serves several real needs. Publicly stating that we have such an
expectation makes the ASF more welcoming to joiners. It also makes
explicit some of the expectations for people who bull through life
without thinking about their interactions.
Google for 'why we need a code of conduct' and then click on a link at
random and you'll get a more articulate statement of why this is
absolutely critical to an organization like ours that spans cultures,
timezones, projects, and many other borders.
It is simply not the case that people just naturally know the right way
to behave. And it is the case that we need to have given careful thought
to what we're going to do about it when people are jerks.
Even Jesus violently threw people out of the temple when they broke the
code of conduct.
--Rich
>
> Cheers
> Stefan
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
>> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Someone mentioned to me that they find the first paragraph of
>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html overly broad,
>> and I tend to agree.
>>
>> That paragraph says "this code of conduct governs how we behave in any
>> forum and whenever we will be judged by our actions" which implies
>> that it also applies outside of "ASF territory" - I don't think that's
>> appropriate. The next paragraph mentions "spaces managed by the Apache
>> Software Foundation" which I find much more appropriate, maybe
>> expanded with "and whenever we represent the ASF".
>>
>> The reasoning is that we can only speak about our own territory.
>>
>> As a simple example, putting your hand on someone's shoulder while
>> talking to them is totally welcome in some cultures while considered
>> "unwelcome sexual attention" (to reuse the words of that document) in
>> others. We might ask people to refrain from doing that in our
>> multi-cultural environment where we need to go down to some common
>> denominator of acceptable behavior, but we can't blame them for doing
>> that where it's culturally acceptable and even expected. The same goes
>> with profanity, where the acceptable level varies immensely between
>> cultures.
>>
>> So I think it's good to restrict our code of conduct to our own territory.
>>
>> I suggest reworking the first few paragraphs as follows, to clarify that:
>>
>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>> This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
>> Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
>> lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
>> communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
>> is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
>> published ASF anti-harassment policy.
>>
>> We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
>> participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims
>> any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
>> activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
>>
>> This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>>
>> What do people think?
>> -Bertrand
>>
>
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
Posted by Stefan Reich <st...@googlemail.com>.
I'm almost tired of criticizing so much, but... I think a "code of conduct"
is evil legalese and should be abandoned.
Like Jesus said: "Love is the only law you need."
Cheers
Stefan
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Someone mentioned to me that they find the first paragraph of
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html overly broad,
> and I tend to agree.
>
> That paragraph says "this code of conduct governs how we behave in any
> forum and whenever we will be judged by our actions" which implies
> that it also applies outside of "ASF territory" - I don't think that's
> appropriate. The next paragraph mentions "spaces managed by the Apache
> Software Foundation" which I find much more appropriate, maybe
> expanded with "and whenever we represent the ASF".
>
> The reasoning is that we can only speak about our own territory.
>
> As a simple example, putting your hand on someone's shoulder while
> talking to them is totally welcome in some cultures while considered
> "unwelcome sexual attention" (to reuse the words of that document) in
> others. We might ask people to refrain from doing that in our
> multi-cultural environment where we need to go down to some common
> denominator of acceptable behavior, but we can't blame them for doing
> that where it's culturally acceptable and even expected. The same goes
> with profanity, where the acceptable level varies immensely between
> cultures.
>
> So I think it's good to restrict our code of conduct to our own territory.
>
> I suggest reworking the first few paragraphs as follows, to clarify that:
>
> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
> is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> published ASF anti-harassment policy.
>
> We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims
> any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
>
> This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>
> What do people think?
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On Tuesday, June 30, 2015, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:23 PM, jan i <jani@apache.org <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
> > ...I read it as apacheCON CORE is not covered and
> > surely apache big data
> > (which is a "pure" LF managed event), because the space is managed by
> LF...
>
> It says "A code of conduct which is specific to in-person events (ie.,
> conferences) is codified in the published ASF anti-harassment policy."
> which refers to
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/anti-harassment.html
>
> Does that work for you?
+1
rgds
jan i
>
> -Bertrand
>
--
Sent from My iPad, sorry for any misspellings.
Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:23 PM, jan i <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...I read it as apacheCON CORE is not covered and
> surely apache big data
> (which is a "pure" LF managed event), because the space is managed by LF...
It says "A code of conduct which is specific to in-person events (ie.,
conferences) is codified in the published ASF anti-harassment policy."
which refers to
http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/anti-harassment.html
Does that work for you?
-Bertrand
Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On 06/30/2015 07:23 AM, jan i wrote:
> Maybe I am a bad reader, but I read it as apacheCON CORE is not covered and
> surely apache big data
> (which is a "pure" LF managed event), because the space is managed by LF. I
> would like to see it "applied to"
> and not only "expect to be honered" for all apache events including
> apacheCON.
LF has a code of conduct. It's shorter than ours, and probably more
easily enforceable because it covers a very limited time and space,
whereas ours covers the known universe and all time.
If someone behaves badly at ApacheCon, we (actually, LF) can throw them
out the door and ask them not to come back next time.
If someone behaves badly at the ASF, how do we enforce? This is yet to
be determined.
If you wish to apply our CoC to ApacheCon, we need to be very clear with
LF as to what that means, specifically, and we also need to take
responsibility for that enforcement. As it stands now, we rely on LF to
enforce their CoC, when we report incidents to them. I'm not actually
sure we want to take that over from them, but it's certainly worth
discussing.
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On 30 June 2015 at 13:01, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Someone mentioned to me that they find the first paragraph of
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html overly broad,
> and I tend to agree.
>
> That paragraph says "this code of conduct governs how we behave in any
> forum and whenever we will be judged by our actions" which implies
> that it also applies outside of "ASF territory" - I don't think that's
> appropriate. The next paragraph mentions "spaces managed by the Apache
> Software Foundation" which I find much more appropriate, maybe
> expanded with "and whenever we represent the ASF".
>
> The reasoning is that we can only speak about our own territory.
>
> As a simple example, putting your hand on someone's shoulder while
> talking to them is totally welcome in some cultures while considered
> "unwelcome sexual attention" (to reuse the words of that document) in
> others. We might ask people to refrain from doing that in our
> multi-cultural environment where we need to go down to some common
> denominator of acceptable behavior, but we can't blame them for doing
> that where it's culturally acceptable and even expected. The same goes
> with profanity, where the acceptable level varies immensely between
> cultures.
>
> So I think it's good to restrict our code of conduct to our own territory.
>
> I suggest reworking the first few paragraphs as follows, to clarify that:
>
> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
> is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> published ASF anti-harassment policy.
>
> We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims
> any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
>
> This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>
> What do people think?
>
Maybe I am a bad reader, but I read it as apacheCON CORE is not covered and
surely apache big data
(which is a "pure" LF managed event), because the space is managed by LF. I
would like to see it "applied to"
and not only "expect to be honered" for all apache events including
apacheCON.
rgds
jan i.
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs of
http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
-Bertrand
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
> is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> published ASF anti-harassment policy.
>
> We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims
> any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
>
> This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***