Combining APR and APR-Util

[Paul Querna <pa...@querna.org>]

Hi,

At ApacheCon, we have had a discussion about APR 2.x and APR-Util.

In the short term, we would like to merge the two libraries, into one
monolithic giant APR 2 library.

In the long term, we would like to split out things that add extra
dependencies to their own sub-libraries.

What I am starting now is copying all of the APR-Util code into APR.

Once this is done, we will try to update all the build systems to
build the single Library.

Thanks,
Paul

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

["William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>]

Bing Swen wrote:
> "Paul Querna" <pa...@querna.org> wrote on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 6:22 PM
>> In the short term, we would like to merge the two libraries, into one
>> monolithic giant APR 2 library.
> 
> This is very good for simplifying the updating of the library. 
> What about apr-iconv? It still has a reduced function set of libiconv prior to 2000.

apr_xlate should support ICU.  The apr-iconv should not be refreshed or
supported in apr 2.0, once apr_xlate offers other backend xlation libs.

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>]

On Mar 24, 2009, at 6:46 AM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:42 AM, Bing Swen <bs...@pku.edu.cn> wrote:
>> This is very good for simplifying the updating of the library.
>> What about apr-iconv? It still has a reduced function set of  
>> libiconv prior to 2000.
>
> When we've brought this up in the past, I believe we felt that
> apr-iconv should continue to be separated.  Right now, it's really
> only useful on Win32.  Ideally, apr-iconv could/should (?) be split
> out from any APR dependencies and just treated as a libiconv-workalike
> (albeit ALv2-licensed).  -- justin
>

+1 for combining APR and APU. The current setup is dumb.
-0 for adding apr-iconv into the mix.

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>]

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:42 AM, Bing Swen <bs...@pku.edu.cn> wrote:
> This is very good for simplifying the updating of the library.
> What about apr-iconv? It still has a reduced function set of libiconv prior to 2000.

When we've brought this up in the past, I believe we felt that
apr-iconv should continue to be separated.  Right now, it's really
only useful on Win32.  Ideally, apr-iconv could/should (?) be split
out from any APR dependencies and just treated as a libiconv-workalike
(albeit ALv2-licensed).  -- justin

RE: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Bing Swen <bs...@pku.edu.cn>]

"Paul Querna" <pa...@querna.org> wrote on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 6:22 PM
>
>In the short term, we would like to merge the two libraries, into one
> monolithic giant APR 2 library.

This is very good for simplifying the updating of the library. 
What about apr-iconv? It still has a reduced function set of libiconv prior to 2000.

Bing

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>]

William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Mladen Turk wrote:
>>
>> That's fine. Anyhow I'd love to INSTALL updated (Windows section
>> doesn't mention anything about dependencies)
>> with the url where to pick the (eventually preferred) version,
>> and release NOTES with the version used for building official
>> binary version.
>> Also, what's the new preferred way of linking to expat and
>> pcre, static like before, or dynamic.
> 
> 
> That's the direction I'm headed.  But of course if you are playing
> on trunk, you know what to expect, and docs will take a bit to play
> catch up with all of these changes ;)
> 

OK. Perfect.

Regards
-- 
^(TM)

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

["William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>]

Mladen Turk wrote:
> 
> That's fine. Anyhow I'd love to INSTALL updated (Windows section
> doesn't mention anything about dependencies)
> with the url where to pick the (eventually preferred) version,
> and release NOTES with the version used for building official
> binary version.
> Also, what's the new preferred way of linking to expat and
> pcre, static like before, or dynamic.


That's the direction I'm headed.  But of course if you are playing
on trunk, you know what to expect, and docs will take a bit to play
catch up with all of these changes ;)

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>]

William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
>>>
>>> Just like you have to plop in pcre now on Win32, you have to plop in
>>> expat.  *shrug*  -- justin
>>>
>>
>> Right, but what's with the official binaries.
>> There will be certainly some explicit versions used
>> and ploped in, or is the at Bill's liberty to
>> choose what he thinks is appropriate.
> 
> I'm not sure what your concern is.  We've always faced this issue,
> but we previously shipped one that was usually stale and out of date.
> 
> Now we expect the user to obtain this on their own and build the
> sub dependencies.  These are already available as packages on most
> of the operating systems anyways, so it was duplicitous for many.
> 

That's fine. Anyhow I'd love to INSTALL updated (Windows section
doesn't mention anything about dependencies)
with the url where to pick the (eventually preferred) version,
and release NOTES with the version used for building official
binary version.
Also, what's the new preferred way of linking to expat and
pcre, static like before, or dynamic.


Regards
-- 
^(TM)

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

["William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>]

William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> 
> Once upon a time there were two, now four external libraries to grab.
> No big change.

[And that wasn't counting as many as six or so db providers!]

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

["William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>]

Mladen Turk wrote:
> Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>> 2009/3/25 Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>:
>>> Fine but the answer doesn't explain how to
>>> build the httpd on windows.
>>
>> Just like you have to plop in pcre now on Win32, you have to plop in
>> expat.  *shrug*  -- justin
>>
> 
> Right, but what's with the official binaries.
> There will be certainly some explicit versions used
> and ploped in, or is the at Bill's liberty to
> choose what he thinks is appropriate.

I'm not sure what your concern is.  We've always faced this issue,
but we previously shipped one that was usually stale and out of date.

Now we expect the user to obtain this on their own and build the
sub dependencies.  These are already available as packages on most
of the operating systems anyways, so it was duplicitous for many.

As far as 'official binaries' - they will simply be whatever happened
to have been released about a week back from creating binaries, so I
just don't see your concern?  Isn't this exactly how we deal with the
zlib and openssl for httpd today?

Once upon a time there were two, now four external libraries to grab.
No big change.

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>]

Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> 2009/3/25 Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>:
>> Fine but the answer doesn't explain how to
>> build the httpd on windows.
> 
> Just like you have to plop in pcre now on Win32, you have to plop in
> expat.  *shrug*  -- justin
>

Right, but what's with the official binaries.
There will be certainly some explicit versions used
and ploped in, or is the at Bill's liberty to
choose what he thinks is appropriate.


Regards
-- 
^(TM)

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>]

2009/3/25 Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>:
> Fine but the answer doesn't explain how to
> build the httpd on windows.

Just like you have to plop in pcre now on Win32, you have to plop in
expat.  *shrug*  -- justin

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>]

Paul Querna wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:17 PM, Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Joe Orton wrote:
>>> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 08:45:37AM +0100, Mladen Turk wrote:
>>>> And I think the expat is missing from xml.
>>>> So the --with-expat=builtin doesn't work
>>> If you unpack a tarball of expat and plonk it at xml/expat it should still
>>> work; none of the build infrastructure has been removed on the Unix side.
>>>  This is what we'd do for release tarballs.
>>>
>> It's not that easy.
>> With xml/expat we had set of windows build files
>> that are now gone. Does it mean that one building
>> the apr will be left on it's own to provide the
>> expat dev environment.
>> And what about httpd?
>> How we'll build that?
> 
> expat is a mature 3rd party project, with many releases since we last
> bundled it.
> 
> we should not bundle anything.
> 

Fine but the answer doesn't explain how to
build the httpd on windows.

Up till now we had self contained source dist that
you could use and build httpd.
Now it depends on few third party components, that
you must locate somewhere, build and install before
building httpd.
It will be versioning nightmare.


Regards
-- 
^(TM)

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Paul Querna <pa...@querna.org>]

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:17 PM, Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org> wrote:
> Joe Orton wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 08:45:37AM +0100, Mladen Turk wrote:
>>>
>>> And I think the expat is missing from xml.
>>> So the --with-expat=builtin doesn't work
>>
>> If you unpack a tarball of expat and plonk it at xml/expat it should still
>> work; none of the build infrastructure has been removed on the Unix side.
>>  This is what we'd do for release tarballs.
>>
>
> It's not that easy.
> With xml/expat we had set of windows build files
> that are now gone. Does it mean that one building
> the apr will be left on it's own to provide the
> expat dev environment.
> And what about httpd?
> How we'll build that?

expat is a mature 3rd party project, with many releases since we last
bundled it.

we should not bundle anything.

-Paul

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>]

Joe Orton wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 08:45:37AM +0100, Mladen Turk wrote:
>> And I think the expat is missing from xml.
>> So the --with-expat=builtin doesn't work
> 
> If you unpack a tarball of expat and plonk it at xml/expat it should 
> still work; none of the build infrastructure has been removed on the 
> Unix side.  This is what we'd do for release tarballs.
> 

It's not that easy.
With xml/expat we had set of windows build files
that are now gone. Does it mean that one building
the apr will be left on it's own to provide the
expat dev environment.
And what about httpd?
How we'll build that?


Regards
-- 
^(TM)

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Joe Orton <jo...@redhat.com>]

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 08:45:37AM +0100, Mladen Turk wrote:
> And I think the expat is missing from xml.
> So the --with-expat=builtin doesn't work

If you unpack a tarball of expat and plonk it at xml/expat it should 
still work; none of the build infrastructure has been removed on the 
Unix side.  This is what we'd do for release tarballs.

Regards, Joe

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>]

Ruediger Pluem wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> And I think the expat is missing from xml.
>>>> So the --with-expat=builtin doesn't work
>>> Bundled expat was removed in r757820. So it cannot work anymore.
>>>
>> So what's the solution for Windows?
> 
> How did we compensate the removal of the bundled pcre in httpd on trunk?
> 

We didn't. It cannot be build on windows like apr can't as well.


Regards
-- 
^(TM)

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Ruediger Pluem <rp...@apache.org>]

On 25.03.2009 09:04, Mladen Turk wrote:
> Ruediger Pluem wrote:
>> On 25.03.2009 08:45, Mladen Turk wrote:
>>> Ruediger Pluem wrote:
>>>> On 24.03.2009 11:21, Paul Querna wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> At ApacheCon, we have had a discussion about APR 2.x and APR-Util.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the short term, we would like to merge the two libraries, into one
>>>>> monolithic giant APR 2 library.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the long term, we would like to split out things that add extra
>>>>> dependencies to their own sub-libraries.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I am starting now is copying all of the APR-Util code into APR.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once this is done, we will try to update all the build systems to
>>>>> build the single Library.
>>>> Just as a reminder for our TODO on the journey to one library.
>>>> Currently 'make check' in APR 2.0 only builds and executes the
>>>> former APR
>>>> tests not the former APR-UTIL tests.
>>>>
>>> And I think the expat is missing from xml.
>>> So the --with-expat=builtin doesn't work
>>
>> Bundled expat was removed in r757820. So it cannot work anymore.
>>
> 
> So what's the solution for Windows?

How did we compensate the removal of the bundled pcre in httpd on trunk?

Regards

Rüdiger

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>]

Ruediger Pluem wrote:
> On 25.03.2009 08:45, Mladen Turk wrote:
>> Ruediger Pluem wrote:
>>> On 24.03.2009 11:21, Paul Querna wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> At ApacheCon, we have had a discussion about APR 2.x and APR-Util.
>>>>
>>>> In the short term, we would like to merge the two libraries, into one
>>>> monolithic giant APR 2 library.
>>>>
>>>> In the long term, we would like to split out things that add extra
>>>> dependencies to their own sub-libraries.
>>>>
>>>> What I am starting now is copying all of the APR-Util code into APR.
>>>>
>>>> Once this is done, we will try to update all the build systems to
>>>> build the single Library.
>>> Just as a reminder for our TODO on the journey to one library.
>>> Currently 'make check' in APR 2.0 only builds and executes the former APR
>>> tests not the former APR-UTIL tests.
>>>
>> And I think the expat is missing from xml.
>> So the --with-expat=builtin doesn't work
> 
> Bundled expat was removed in r757820. So it cannot work anymore.
> 

So what's the solution for Windows?


Regards
-- 
^(TM)

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Ruediger Pluem <rp...@apache.org>]

On 25.03.2009 08:45, Mladen Turk wrote:
> Ruediger Pluem wrote:
>> On 24.03.2009 11:21, Paul Querna wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> At ApacheCon, we have had a discussion about APR 2.x and APR-Util.
>>>
>>> In the short term, we would like to merge the two libraries, into one
>>> monolithic giant APR 2 library.
>>>
>>> In the long term, we would like to split out things that add extra
>>> dependencies to their own sub-libraries.
>>>
>>> What I am starting now is copying all of the APR-Util code into APR.
>>>
>>> Once this is done, we will try to update all the build systems to
>>> build the single Library.
>>
>> Just as a reminder for our TODO on the journey to one library.
>> Currently 'make check' in APR 2.0 only builds and executes the former APR
>> tests not the former APR-UTIL tests.
>>
> 
> And I think the expat is missing from xml.
> So the --with-expat=builtin doesn't work

Bundled expat was removed in r757820. So it cannot work anymore.

Regards

Rüdiger

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>]

Ruediger Pluem wrote:
> On 24.03.2009 11:21, Paul Querna wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> At ApacheCon, we have had a discussion about APR 2.x and APR-Util.
>>
>> In the short term, we would like to merge the two libraries, into one
>> monolithic giant APR 2 library.
>>
>> In the long term, we would like to split out things that add extra
>> dependencies to their own sub-libraries.
>>
>> What I am starting now is copying all of the APR-Util code into APR.
>>
>> Once this is done, we will try to update all the build systems to
>> build the single Library.
> 
> Just as a reminder for our TODO on the journey to one library.
> Currently 'make check' in APR 2.0 only builds and executes the former APR
> tests not the former APR-UTIL tests.
> 

And I think the expat is missing from xml.
So the --with-expat=builtin doesn't work

Regards
-- 
^(TM)

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Ruediger Pluem <rp...@apache.org>]

On 24.03.2009 11:21, Paul Querna wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> At ApacheCon, we have had a discussion about APR 2.x and APR-Util.
> 
> In the short term, we would like to merge the two libraries, into one
> monolithic giant APR 2 library.
> 
> In the long term, we would like to split out things that add extra
> dependencies to their own sub-libraries.
> 
> What I am starting now is copying all of the APR-Util code into APR.
> 
> Once this is done, we will try to update all the build systems to
> build the single Library.

Just as a reminder for our TODO on the journey to one library.
Currently 'make check' in APR 2.0 only builds and executes the former APR
tests not the former APR-UTIL tests.

Regards

Rüdiger

Re: Combining APR and APR-Util

[Issac Goldstand <ma...@beamartyr.net>]

Paul Querna wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> At ApacheCon, we have had a discussion about APR 2.x and APR-Util.
> 
> In the short term, we would like to merge the two libraries, into one
> monolithic giant APR 2 library.
> 
> In the long term, we would like to split out things that add extra
> dependencies to their own sub-libraries.
> 
> What I am starting now is copying all of the APR-Util code into APR.
> 
> Once this is done, we will try to update all the build systems to
> build the single Library.
> 
> Thanks,
> Paul


This might be a good excuse to work on the apreq integration to APR
(which was always complex since we didn't know exactly how to do the
APR/APR-Util split)

I'd meant to be there in Amsterdam (but I couldn't get the travel time
:( ) or I'd voulenteer, but work's got me busy

I'll buy a beer (read: I'll paypal you a few bucks and you buy the beer
for yourself at the conference) if someone wants to pick up the ball in
my stead ;)

  Issac