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Posted to dev@tuscany.apache.org by ant elder <an...@gmail.com> on 2006/07/05 12:04:13 UTC
Email versus IRC
There's a thread going on over on incubator-general about the use of IRC:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=115111286000001&r=1&w=2
Are people happy with having our current weekly hour long IRC chat? I find
the chat a useful way to find whats going on and gauge peoples opinions. A 1
hour chat isn't so long that its hard to read the chat log, we could
probably do better at providing a summary of what was said, and maybe post
the log and summary on the wiki so its easier to find. So I think the
current chat is useful and works ok but we can change this if others don't
like it.
Currently the chat focus has been primarily Java SCA, should we try and
include C++ or SDO or DAS more? Or have separate extra chats for those?
Often the chat is one long rambling conversation, should we try to be more
structured and have a set 10 minutes for this, 10 minutes for that type of
thing to just get a regular status and have any followup discussion on the
mailing list?
Is the 15:30GMT on Monday time slot ok?
What do you think?
...ant
Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com>.
On Jul 5, 2006, at 3:04 AM, ant elder wrote:
> There's a thread going on over on incubator-general about the use
> of IRC:
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=115111286000001&r=1&w=2
>
> Are people happy with having our current weekly hour long IRC chat?
> I find
> the chat a useful way to find whats going on and gauge peoples
> opinions. A 1
> hour chat isn't so long that its hard to read the chat log, we could
> probably do better at providing a summary of what was said, and
> maybe post
> the log and summary on the wiki so its easier to find. So I think the
> current chat is useful and works ok but we can change this if
> others don't
> like it.
I like it even though my travel schedule causes me to miss it at
times. I find reading the logs easy enough and when I am able to
attend, it's very useful.
>
> Currently the chat focus has been primarily Java SCA, should we try
> and
> include C++ or SDO or DAS more? Or have separate extra chats for
> those?
> Often the chat is one long rambling conversation, should we try to
> be more
> structured and have a set 10 minutes for this, 10 minutes for that
> type of
> thing to just get a regular status and have any followup discussion
> on the
> mailing list?
>
Having the other subprojects would be a good way to have knowledge
sharing. From my SCA perspective, it would be interesting for me to
compare notes with the C++ people. Also, I'm interested in hearing
about how DAS and SDO are going.
> Is the 15:30GMT on Monday time slot ok?
>
Works for me when I can make it but I'm also happy to change it if
others have difficulty with that time.
> What do you think?
>
> ...ant
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Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Jean-Sebastien Delfino <js...@apache.org>.
Paul Fremantle wrote:
> I think IRC is goodness as long as
>
> 1. the log gets posted
> 2. formal votes are done on email
>
> Communities that meet regularly on IRC might have an issue if they
> dont post logs, but if the discussion is posted on email then its a
> very productive.
>
> Paul
+1
I find these regular IRC chats productive and very helpful. It also
helps a lot if the email post includes a summary of the IRC discussion.
Ant recently started to add these summaries and I think it's great, this
way people who cannot attend the chat get a summary without having to
crawl through the entire IRC log.
--
Jean-Sebastien
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Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by kelvin goodson <ke...@thegoodsons.org.uk>.
I can see merit in an SDO chat and I like the idea publishing the chat
topics and summarising the chat log. For me that would enable me to work
smarter, since I could decide ahead of time whether to attend the wider
meeting or catch up later by reading the log summary. Hopefully the net
time spent for me would be less, and the relevance to my core interst would
be greater.
What do the rest of the SDO community think? I'd be happy to summarize and
post the log. If there's interest perhaps we should try 1/2 an hour a week
as a starter?
Cheers, Kelvin.
On 7/5/06, Venkata Krishnan <fo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> I have found the chat logs useful to catch up with the discussions. But
> then we must be more choosy about the sort of topics we discuss.
>
> In my opinion the chat must be reserved for subjects that simply cannot be
> allowed to drag over for days, over the mailing lists. It would be good
> if
> we can decide ahead of the chat, on the subjects that should be taken for
> discussion i.e. fix the agenda ahead of the chat. That will help
> partcipants come prepared as well.
>
> As for who will decide the sort of subjects to be discussed, we could
> either
> propose and vote over the mailing lists or maybe just propose and trust
> the
> chat moderator to take a call on that.
>
> - Venkat
>
>
> On 7/5/06, Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think IRC is goodness as long as
> >
> > 1. the log gets posted
> > 2. formal votes are done on email
> >
> > Communities that meet regularly on IRC might have an issue if they
> > dont post logs, but if the discussion is posted on email then its a
> > very productive.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On 7/5/06, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > There's a thread going on over on incubator-general about the use of
> > IRC:
> > > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=115111286000001&r=1&w=2
> > >
> > > Are people happy with having our current weekly hour long IRC chat? I
> > find
> > > the chat a useful way to find whats going on and gauge peoples
> opinions.
> > A 1
> > > hour chat isn't so long that its hard to read the chat log, we could
> > > probably do better at providing a summary of what was said, and maybe
> > post
> > > the log and summary on the wiki so its easier to find. So I think the
> > > current chat is useful and works ok but we can change this if others
> > don't
> > > like it.
> > >
> > > Currently the chat focus has been primarily Java SCA, should we try
> and
> > > include C++ or SDO or DAS more? Or have separate extra chats for
> those?
> > > Often the chat is one long rambling conversation, should we try to be
> > more
> > > structured and have a set 10 minutes for this, 10 minutes for that
> type
> > of
> > > thing to just get a regular status and have any followup discussion on
> > the
> > > mailing list?
> > >
> > > Is the 15:30GMT on Monday time slot ok?
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > ...ant
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul Fremantle
> > VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
> >
> > http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
> > paul@wso2.com
> >
> > "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: tuscany-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: tuscany-dev-help@ws.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
--
Best Regards
Kelvin Goodson
Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Venkata Krishnan <fo...@gmail.com>.
Hi
I have found the chat logs useful to catch up with the discussions. But
then we must be more choosy about the sort of topics we discuss.
In my opinion the chat must be reserved for subjects that simply cannot be
allowed to drag over for days, over the mailing lists. It would be good if
we can decide ahead of the chat, on the subjects that should be taken for
discussion i.e. fix the agenda ahead of the chat. That will help
partcipants come prepared as well.
As for who will decide the sort of subjects to be discussed, we could either
propose and vote over the mailing lists or maybe just propose and trust the
chat moderator to take a call on that.
- Venkat
On 7/5/06, Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think IRC is goodness as long as
>
> 1. the log gets posted
> 2. formal votes are done on email
>
> Communities that meet regularly on IRC might have an issue if they
> dont post logs, but if the discussion is posted on email then its a
> very productive.
>
> Paul
>
> On 7/5/06, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > There's a thread going on over on incubator-general about the use of
> IRC:
> > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=115111286000001&r=1&w=2
> >
> > Are people happy with having our current weekly hour long IRC chat? I
> find
> > the chat a useful way to find whats going on and gauge peoples opinions.
> A 1
> > hour chat isn't so long that its hard to read the chat log, we could
> > probably do better at providing a summary of what was said, and maybe
> post
> > the log and summary on the wiki so its easier to find. So I think the
> > current chat is useful and works ok but we can change this if others
> don't
> > like it.
> >
> > Currently the chat focus has been primarily Java SCA, should we try and
> > include C++ or SDO or DAS more? Or have separate extra chats for those?
> > Often the chat is one long rambling conversation, should we try to be
> more
> > structured and have a set 10 minutes for this, 10 minutes for that type
> of
> > thing to just get a regular status and have any followup discussion on
> the
> > mailing list?
> >
> > Is the 15:30GMT on Monday time slot ok?
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > ...ant
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Paul Fremantle
> VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
>
> http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
> paul@wso2.com
>
> "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tuscany-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tuscany-dev-help@ws.apache.org
>
>
Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
I think IRC is goodness as long as
1. the log gets posted
2. formal votes are done on email
Communities that meet regularly on IRC might have an issue if they
dont post logs, but if the discussion is posted on email then its a
very productive.
Paul
On 7/5/06, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There's a thread going on over on incubator-general about the use of IRC:
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=115111286000001&r=1&w=2
>
> Are people happy with having our current weekly hour long IRC chat? I find
> the chat a useful way to find whats going on and gauge peoples opinions. A 1
> hour chat isn't so long that its hard to read the chat log, we could
> probably do better at providing a summary of what was said, and maybe post
> the log and summary on the wiki so its easier to find. So I think the
> current chat is useful and works ok but we can change this if others don't
> like it.
>
> Currently the chat focus has been primarily Java SCA, should we try and
> include C++ or SDO or DAS more? Or have separate extra chats for those?
> Often the chat is one long rambling conversation, should we try to be more
> structured and have a set 10 minutes for this, 10 minutes for that type of
> thing to just get a regular status and have any followup discussion on the
> mailing list?
>
> Is the 15:30GMT on Monday time slot ok?
>
> What do you think?
>
> ...ant
>
>
--
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
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Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Geoffrey Winn <ge...@googlemail.com>.
For what it's worth, I like that approach too. I'm with Pete on this, in
general I dislike IRC, although I can see there are times when it is useful.
I particularly like the idea that the subjects for the regular IRC chat
should be announced in advance as far as possible. I think that will help a
lot.
Regards,
Geoff.
On 06/07/06, Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I'd like to see if I can recap where this thread went. There seem to
> be two sets of opinion:
>
> 1) that regular scheduled chats are helpful
> 2) that impromptu, unscheduled chats are helpful
>
> In light of this, I'd like to propose the following IRC policy for
> the project:
>
> ==
> We will hold a regular scheduled chat at the current time (15:30GMT
> every Monday) to discuss non-urgent things that people may be
> interested in. Subjects should be posted to the list in advance so
> that people can make a decision on whether to attend; attendance is
> encouraged but optional. The folk that show up get to choose what is
> discussed.
>
> We will also hold pre-announced chats at other times so try and bring
> closure to issues that seem to be dragging on in email threads. The
> point of these is to come to a decision and such outcomes must be
> posted to the list for all to review. It is the discussion on the
> list that is binding.
>
> In general we will encourage community members to hang out on the IRC
> channel so that anyone can hold an impromptu discussion with folk
> that happen to be around. We especially encourage committers to be
> available so that new users have a way to reach someone. Any
> decisions should be summarized to the list.
> ==
>
> I hope that captures everyone's thoughts and if so I'd suggest we put
> it on the website.
> If not, how about meeting on IRC to close this out?
>
> --
> Jeremy
>
> On Jul 5, 2006, at 3:04 AM, ant elder wrote:
>
> > There's a thread going on over on incubator-general about the use
> > of IRC:
> > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=115111286000001&r=1&w=2
> >
> > Are people happy with having our current weekly hour long IRC chat?
> > I find
> > the chat a useful way to find whats going on and gauge peoples
> > opinions. A 1
> > hour chat isn't so long that its hard to read the chat log, we could
> > probably do better at providing a summary of what was said, and
> > maybe post
> > the log and summary on the wiki so its easier to find. So I think the
> > current chat is useful and works ok but we can change this if
> > others don't
> > like it.
> >
> > Currently the chat focus has been primarily Java SCA, should we try
> > and
> > include C++ or SDO or DAS more? Or have separate extra chats for
> > those?
> > Often the chat is one long rambling conversation, should we try to
> > be more
> > structured and have a set 10 minutes for this, 10 minutes for that
> > type of
> > thing to just get a regular status and have any followup discussion
> > on the
> > mailing list?
> >
> > Is the 15:30GMT on Monday time slot ok?
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > ...ant
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tuscany-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tuscany-dev-help@ws.apache.org
>
>
Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Kevin Williams <ke...@qwest.net>.
This sounds good to me. +1
Jeremy Boynes wrote:
> I'd like to see if I can recap where this thread went. There seem to
> be two sets of opinion:
>
> 1) that regular scheduled chats are helpful
> 2) that impromptu, unscheduled chats are helpful
>
> In light of this, I'd like to propose the following IRC policy for
> the project:
>
> ==
> We will hold a regular scheduled chat at the current time (15:30GMT
> every Monday) to discuss non-urgent things that people may be
> interested in. Subjects should be posted to the list in advance so
> that people can make a decision on whether to attend; attendance is
> encouraged but optional. The folk that show up get to choose what is
> discussed.
>
> We will also hold pre-announced chats at other times so try and bring
> closure to issues that seem to be dragging on in email threads. The
> point of these is to come to a decision and such outcomes must be
> posted to the list for all to review. It is the discussion on the
> list that is binding.
>
> In general we will encourage community members to hang out on the IRC
> channel so that anyone can hold an impromptu discussion with folk
> that happen to be around. We especially encourage committers to be
> available so that new users have a way to reach someone. Any
> decisions should be summarized to the list.
> ==
>
> I hope that captures everyone's thoughts and if so I'd suggest we put
> it on the website.
> If not, how about meeting on IRC to close this out?
>
> --
> Jeremy
>
> On Jul 5, 2006, at 3:04 AM, ant elder wrote:
>
>> There's a thread going on over on incubator-general about the use of
>> IRC:
>> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=115111286000001&r=1&w=2
>>
>> Are people happy with having our current weekly hour long IRC chat?
>> I find
>> the chat a useful way to find whats going on and gauge peoples
>> opinions. A 1
>> hour chat isn't so long that its hard to read the chat log, we could
>> probably do better at providing a summary of what was said, and
>> maybe post
>> the log and summary on the wiki so its easier to find. So I think the
>> current chat is useful and works ok but we can change this if others
>> don't
>> like it.
>>
>> Currently the chat focus has been primarily Java SCA, should we try and
>> include C++ or SDO or DAS more? Or have separate extra chats for those?
>> Often the chat is one long rambling conversation, should we try to
>> be more
>> structured and have a set 10 minutes for this, 10 minutes for that
>> type of
>> thing to just get a regular status and have any followup discussion
>> on the
>> mailing list?
>>
>> Is the 15:30GMT on Monday time slot ok?
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> ...ant
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
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Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Venkata Krishnan <fo...@gmail.com>.
+1
and I stick to my earlier suggestion that the topics of discussion be fixed
ahead over the mailing list instead of choosing the topics over the list and
then actually picking them up for discussion only in the IRC. Choosing them
ahead brings in a committment that a topic would surely get discussed and
hence the interested folks will make it point to attend and voice their
opinions. The reason I say this is that one could land up in an IRC,
prepared and then find that his / her topic is way down the list and when
the chance has finally come everybody has run out of time and have jumped
off. That turns out to be very disappointing.
Thanks.
- Venkat
On 7/7/06, Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I'd like to see if I can recap where this thread went. There seem to
> be two sets of opinion:
>
> 1) that regular scheduled chats are helpful
> 2) that impromptu, unscheduled chats are helpful
>
> In light of this, I'd like to propose the following IRC policy for
> the project:
>
> ==
> We will hold a regular scheduled chat at the current time (15:30GMT
> every Monday) to discuss non-urgent things that people may be
> interested in. Subjects should be posted to the list in advance so
> that people can make a decision on whether to attend; attendance is
> encouraged but optional. The folk that show up get to choose what is
> discussed.
>
> We will also hold pre-announced chats at other times so try and bring
> closure to issues that seem to be dragging on in email threads. The
> point of these is to come to a decision and such outcomes must be
> posted to the list for all to review. It is the discussion on the
> list that is binding.
>
> In general we will encourage community members to hang out on the IRC
> channel so that anyone can hold an impromptu discussion with folk
> that happen to be around. We especially encourage committers to be
> available so that new users have a way to reach someone. Any
> decisions should be summarized to the list.
> ==
>
> I hope that captures everyone's thoughts and if so I'd suggest we put
> it on the website.
> If not, how about meeting on IRC to close this out?
>
> --
> Jeremy
>
> On Jul 5, 2006, at 3:04 AM, ant elder wrote:
>
> > There's a thread going on over on incubator-general about the use
> > of IRC:
> > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=115111286000001&r=1&w=2
> >
> > Are people happy with having our current weekly hour long IRC chat?
> > I find
> > the chat a useful way to find whats going on and gauge peoples
> > opinions. A 1
> > hour chat isn't so long that its hard to read the chat log, we could
> > probably do better at providing a summary of what was said, and
> > maybe post
> > the log and summary on the wiki so its easier to find. So I think the
> > current chat is useful and works ok but we can change this if
> > others don't
> > like it.
> >
> > Currently the chat focus has been primarily Java SCA, should we try
> > and
> > include C++ or SDO or DAS more? Or have separate extra chats for
> > those?
> > Often the chat is one long rambling conversation, should we try to
> > be more
> > structured and have a set 10 minutes for this, 10 minutes for that
> > type of
> > thing to just get a regular status and have any followup discussion
> > on the
> > mailing list?
> >
> > Is the 15:30GMT on Monday time slot ok?
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > ...ant
>
>
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>
>
Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com>.
yea that's cool. I just thought if a decision was made on IRC it
couldn't be "undone" by a vote on the list. I like the idea of using
quick chats to clear out lingering things and then have them ratified
on the list.
Jim
On Jul 6, 2006, at 4:02 PM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
>
> On Jul 6, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Jim Marino wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jul 6, 2006, at 2:22 PM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> We will also hold pre-announced chats at other times so try and
>>> bring closure to issues that seem to be dragging on in email
>>> threads. The point of these is to come to a decision and such
>>> outcomes must be posted to the list for all to review. It is the
>>> discussion on the list that is binding.
>> I like all of this except the above. I thought decisions of
>> substance cannot be made on IRC? It sounds unfair since people
>> oftentimes cannot attend. I have no problems with discussions but
>> decision making should be on the list. I hate to be a contrarian
>> on this point but I feel it is important.
>
> The intention here was to provide a mechanism to handle discussions
> from the list that were just going on and on. Critical is that the
> discussion started on the list and would conclude on the list. I
> was trying to capture that the point of the chat would be to tackle
> a specific issue rather than just have your typical rambling IRC
> thread :-)
>
> Would it work for you to say that the point of the chat would be to
> have a focused discussion?
>
> --
> Jeremy
>
>
>
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Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Kenneth Tam <ke...@gmail.com>.
On 7/6/06, Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Jul 6, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Jim Marino wrote:
>
> >
> > On Jul 6, 2006, at 2:22 PM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> We will also hold pre-announced chats at other times so try and
> >> bring closure to issues that seem to be dragging on in email
> >> threads. The point of these is to come to a decision and such
> >> outcomes must be posted to the list for all to review. It is the
> >> discussion on the list that is binding.
> > I like all of this except the above. I thought decisions of
> > substance cannot be made on IRC? It sounds unfair since people
> > oftentimes cannot attend. I have no problems with discussions but
> > decision making should be on the list. I hate to be a contrarian on
> > this point but I feel it is important.
>
> The intention here was to provide a mechanism to handle discussions
> from the list that were just going on and on. Critical is that the
> discussion started on the list and would conclude on the list. I was
> trying to capture that the point of the chat would be to tackle a
> specific issue rather than just have your typical rambling IRC
> thread :-)
>
> Would it work for you to say that the point of the chat would be to
> have a focused discussion?
>
+1 -- I think we should consider IRC a great venue for arbitrary sets
of folks to come to consensus amongst themselves, which will
ultimately help build consensus amongst everyone on the email list.
I for one tend to avoid IRC because of frequent firewall issues.
Plus, I have enough scheduled/realtime meetings/appointments that I
really don't need one more :)
thanks,
k
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Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org>.
On Jul 6, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Jim Marino wrote:
>
> On Jul 6, 2006, at 2:22 PM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
>
>>
>> We will also hold pre-announced chats at other times so try and
>> bring closure to issues that seem to be dragging on in email
>> threads. The point of these is to come to a decision and such
>> outcomes must be posted to the list for all to review. It is the
>> discussion on the list that is binding.
> I like all of this except the above. I thought decisions of
> substance cannot be made on IRC? It sounds unfair since people
> oftentimes cannot attend. I have no problems with discussions but
> decision making should be on the list. I hate to be a contrarian on
> this point but I feel it is important.
The intention here was to provide a mechanism to handle discussions
from the list that were just going on and on. Critical is that the
discussion started on the list and would conclude on the list. I was
trying to capture that the point of the chat would be to tackle a
specific issue rather than just have your typical rambling IRC
thread :-)
Would it work for you to say that the point of the chat would be to
have a focused discussion?
--
Jeremy
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Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com>.
On Jul 6, 2006, at 2:22 PM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
> I'd like to see if I can recap where this thread went. There seem
> to be two sets of opinion:
>
> 1) that regular scheduled chats are helpful
> 2) that impromptu, unscheduled chats are helpful
>
> In light of this, I'd like to propose the following IRC policy for
> the project:
>
> ==
> We will hold a regular scheduled chat at the current time (15:30GMT
> every Monday) to discuss non-urgent things that people may be
> interested in. Subjects should be posted to the list in advance so
> that people can make a decision on whether to attend; attendance is
> encouraged but optional. The folk that show up get to choose what
> is discussed.
>
> We will also hold pre-announced chats at other times so try and
> bring closure to issues that seem to be dragging on in email
> threads. The point of these is to come to a decision and such
> outcomes must be posted to the list for all to review. It is the
> discussion on the list that is binding.
I like all of this except the above. I thought decisions of substance
cannot be made on IRC? It sounds unfair since people oftentimes
cannot attend. I have no problems with discussions but decision
making should be on the list. I hate to be a contrarian on this point
but I feel it is important.
>
> In general we will encourage community members to hang out on the
> IRC channel so that anyone can hold an impromptu discussion with
> folk that happen to be around. We especially encourage committers
> to be available so that new users have a way to reach someone. Any
> decisions should be summarized to the list.
> ==
>
> I hope that captures everyone's thoughts and if so I'd suggest we
> put it on the website.
> If not, how about meeting on IRC to close this out?
>
No :-) Let's close it out on this list.
> --
> Jeremy
>
> On Jul 5, 2006, at 3:04 AM, ant elder wrote:
>
>> There's a thread going on over on incubator-general about the use
>> of IRC:
>> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=115111286000001&r=1&w=2
>>
>> Are people happy with having our current weekly hour long IRC
>> chat? I find
>> the chat a useful way to find whats going on and gauge peoples
>> opinions. A 1
>> hour chat isn't so long that its hard to read the chat log, we could
>> probably do better at providing a summary of what was said, and
>> maybe post
>> the log and summary on the wiki so its easier to find. So I think the
>> current chat is useful and works ok but we can change this if
>> others don't
>> like it.
>>
>> Currently the chat focus has been primarily Java SCA, should we
>> try and
>> include C++ or SDO or DAS more? Or have separate extra chats for
>> those?
>> Often the chat is one long rambling conversation, should we try to
>> be more
>> structured and have a set 10 minutes for this, 10 minutes for that
>> type of
>> thing to just get a regular status and have any followup
>> discussion on the
>> mailing list?
>>
>> Is the 15:30GMT on Monday time slot ok?
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> ...ant
>
>
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Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Pete Robbins <ro...@googlemail.com>.
+1
that just about covers it from my point of view. I'd also be interested in
experimenting with a 1hr email session. Email is pretty fast nowadays and
refreshing and responding via the mailing list could also work. It would
also remove the really annoying thing about IRC which is the loss of context
on the msgs. For example:
Fred: I propose X as the best solution
Joe: Y is better
Bill: I agree
Of course Bill was actually agreeing with Fred but the pathetically slow IRC
response (at least on my system) combined with many people "talking" at once
causes confusion.
I guess I just don't like IRC ;-)
I will attend when I can tho...
On 06/07/06, Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I'd like to see if I can recap where this thread went. There seem to
> be two sets of opinion:
>
> 1) that regular scheduled chats are helpful
> 2) that impromptu, unscheduled chats are helpful
>
> In light of this, I'd like to propose the following IRC policy for
> the project:
>
> ==
> We will hold a regular scheduled chat at the current time (15:30GMT
> every Monday) to discuss non-urgent things that people may be
> interested in. Subjects should be posted to the list in advance so
> that people can make a decision on whether to attend; attendance is
> encouraged but optional. The folk that show up get to choose what is
> discussed.
>
> We will also hold pre-announced chats at other times so try and bring
> closure to issues that seem to be dragging on in email threads. The
> point of these is to come to a decision and such outcomes must be
> posted to the list for all to review. It is the discussion on the
> list that is binding.
>
> In general we will encourage community members to hang out on the IRC
> channel so that anyone can hold an impromptu discussion with folk
> that happen to be around. We especially encourage committers to be
> available so that new users have a way to reach someone. Any
> decisions should be summarized to the list.
> ==
>
> I hope that captures everyone's thoughts and if so I'd suggest we put
> it on the website.
> If not, how about meeting on IRC to close this out?
>
> --
> Jeremy
>
> On Jul 5, 2006, at 3:04 AM, ant elder wrote:
>
> > There's a thread going on over on incubator-general about the use
> > of IRC:
> > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=115111286000001&r=1&w=2
> >
> > Are people happy with having our current weekly hour long IRC chat?
> > I find
> > the chat a useful way to find whats going on and gauge peoples
> > opinions. A 1
> > hour chat isn't so long that its hard to read the chat log, we could
> > probably do better at providing a summary of what was said, and
> > maybe post
> > the log and summary on the wiki so its easier to find. So I think the
> > current chat is useful and works ok but we can change this if
> > others don't
> > like it.
> >
> > Currently the chat focus has been primarily Java SCA, should we try
> > and
> > include C++ or SDO or DAS more? Or have separate extra chats for
> > those?
> > Often the chat is one long rambling conversation, should we try to
> > be more
> > structured and have a set 10 minutes for this, 10 minutes for that
> > type of
> > thing to just get a regular status and have any followup discussion
> > on the
> > mailing list?
> >
> > Is the 15:30GMT on Monday time slot ok?
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > ...ant
>
>
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>
--
Pete
Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org>.
I'd like to see if I can recap where this thread went. There seem to
be two sets of opinion:
1) that regular scheduled chats are helpful
2) that impromptu, unscheduled chats are helpful
In light of this, I'd like to propose the following IRC policy for
the project:
==
We will hold a regular scheduled chat at the current time (15:30GMT
every Monday) to discuss non-urgent things that people may be
interested in. Subjects should be posted to the list in advance so
that people can make a decision on whether to attend; attendance is
encouraged but optional. The folk that show up get to choose what is
discussed.
We will also hold pre-announced chats at other times so try and bring
closure to issues that seem to be dragging on in email threads. The
point of these is to come to a decision and such outcomes must be
posted to the list for all to review. It is the discussion on the
list that is binding.
In general we will encourage community members to hang out on the IRC
channel so that anyone can hold an impromptu discussion with folk
that happen to be around. We especially encourage committers to be
available so that new users have a way to reach someone. Any
decisions should be summarized to the list.
==
I hope that captures everyone's thoughts and if so I'd suggest we put
it on the website.
If not, how about meeting on IRC to close this out?
--
Jeremy
On Jul 5, 2006, at 3:04 AM, ant elder wrote:
> There's a thread going on over on incubator-general about the use
> of IRC:
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=115111286000001&r=1&w=2
>
> Are people happy with having our current weekly hour long IRC chat?
> I find
> the chat a useful way to find whats going on and gauge peoples
> opinions. A 1
> hour chat isn't so long that its hard to read the chat log, we could
> probably do better at providing a summary of what was said, and
> maybe post
> the log and summary on the wiki so its easier to find. So I think the
> current chat is useful and works ok but we can change this if
> others don't
> like it.
>
> Currently the chat focus has been primarily Java SCA, should we try
> and
> include C++ or SDO or DAS more? Or have separate extra chats for
> those?
> Often the chat is one long rambling conversation, should we try to
> be more
> structured and have a set 10 minutes for this, 10 minutes for that
> type of
> thing to just get a regular status and have any followup discussion
> on the
> mailing list?
>
> Is the 15:30GMT on Monday time slot ok?
>
> What do you think?
>
> ...ant
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Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com>.
You'll get a rise of this: I'm in Rome now and the other day I was
out doing my run, all sweaty, in terrible heat, and I run past this
women and she asks if I have a lighter for her cigarette :-) Classic
Italy.
Jim
On Jul 6, 2006, at 2:10 AM, Andrew Borley wrote:
> On 7/6/06, Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com> wrote:
>>
>> at the squash courts ;-)
>>
>
> That's for the healthy, athletic guys - us cooler types hang out
> behind the
> bike sheds, smoking woodbines and cracking jokes ;-)
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Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Andrew Borley <aj...@gmail.com>.
On 7/6/06, Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com> wrote:
>
> at the squash courts ;-)
>
That's for the healthy, athletic guys - us cooler types hang out behind the
bike sheds, smoking woodbines and cracking jokes ;-)
Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com>.
at the squash courts ;-)
On Jul 5, 2006, at 6:14 PM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
> On Jul 5, 2006, at 11:37 AM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
>
>> On Jul 5, 2006, at 11:10 AM, haleh mahbod wrote:
>>
>>> IRC has been a useful tool for timely community brainstorming to
>>> handle
>>> issues that need quick attention.
>>>
>>
>> Right. That was the basis for saying IRC should be an impromptu,
>> consensus building mechanism - there's no need to wait for a
>> scheduled time to have these types of discussions.
>
> Of course, this kind of approach only works if people can be
> contacted on IRC - very few people were on the channel today and I
> have the impression that is fairly typical. Where do Tuscany folk
> hang out?
>
> --
> Jeremy
>
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Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org>.
On Jul 5, 2006, at 11:37 AM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
> On Jul 5, 2006, at 11:10 AM, haleh mahbod wrote:
>
>> IRC has been a useful tool for timely community brainstorming to
>> handle
>> issues that need quick attention.
>>
>
> Right. That was the basis for saying IRC should be an impromptu,
> consensus building mechanism - there's no need to wait for a
> scheduled time to have these types of discussions.
Of course, this kind of approach only works if people can be
contacted on IRC - very few people were on the channel today and I
have the impression that is fairly typical. Where do Tuscany folk
hang out?
--
Jeremy
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Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Pete Robbins <ro...@googlemail.com>.
On 05/07/06, Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Jul 5, 2006, at 11:10 AM, haleh mahbod wrote:
>
> > IRC has been a useful tool for timely community brainstorming to
> > handle
> > issues that need quick attention.
> >
>
> Right. That was the basis for saying IRC should be an impromptu,
> consensus building mechanism - there's no need to wait for a
> scheduled time to have these types of discussions.
>
> However, if we're using IRC that way, what do we get from a scheduled
> weekly session?
Scheduled spontaneity of course! ;-)
IRC should be used for short notice urgent discussions. If I can schedule a
topic for discussion one week (or even a few days) in advance then I should
use the mailing list and get a whole week's (or few days) worth of airing.
I'm also not inclined to book an hour out of every week (at an inconvenient
time) on the off-chance that something might be discussed that is
interesting.
--
Pete
Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org>.
On Jul 5, 2006, at 11:10 AM, haleh mahbod wrote:
> IRC has been a useful tool for timely community brainstorming to
> handle
> issues that need quick attention.
>
Right. That was the basis for saying IRC should be an impromptu,
consensus building mechanism - there's no need to wait for a
scheduled time to have these types of discussions.
However, if we're using IRC that way, what do we get from a scheduled
weekly session?
--
Jeremy
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Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by haleh mahbod <hm...@gmail.com>.
IRC has been a useful tool for timely community brainstorming to handle
issues that need quick attention.
We have started to summarize the chat content on the mailing list in
messages that include the IRC chat. That is very useful.
It would be good to decide on chat subject before the chat session starts
and publish it on mailing list.
This gives a chance to people in different time zones to decide on whether
they need to attend the chat or not.
On 7/5/06, Simon Nash <na...@hursley.ibm.com> wrote:
>
> I think a weekly one-hour scheduled IRC chat is a good idea, even
> though my personal record of attendance isn't too good :-( I have
> scheduled these into my calendar now, whoch should help. The few
> chats I have been on have been useful, though perhaps closer to
> decision-making affairs than would ideally follow the Apache model.
> (Sample: what are we going to do about these JIRAs?) However, it
> was useful to reach quick decisions on these and the chat seemed to
> be a reasonable way to do this. The current time is OK for me.
>
> Simon
>
> ant elder wrote:
>
> > AFAICT no one has suggested a ban on IRC, what I'm trying to find out is
> if
> > we should be continuing with the regularly scheduled weekly chat. If
> enough
> > people don't think we should be having it then we should stop. Thats a
> > perfectly fine thing to happen if thats what the community want, but its
> > not
> > going to get stopped unless those who don't think we should be having it
> > speak up clearly. That's what this thread is about - " Are people happy
> > with
> > having our current weekly hour long IRC chat?"
> >
> > ...ant
> >
>
> --
> Simon C Nash IBM Distinguished Engineer
> Hursley Park, Winchester, UK nash@hursley.ibm.com
> Tel. +44-1962-815156 Fax +44-1962-818999
>
>
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>
Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Simon Nash <na...@hursley.ibm.com>.
I think a weekly one-hour scheduled IRC chat is a good idea, even
though my personal record of attendance isn't too good :-( I have
scheduled these into my calendar now, whoch should help. The few
chats I have been on have been useful, though perhaps closer to
decision-making affairs than would ideally follow the Apache model.
(Sample: what are we going to do about these JIRAs?) However, it
was useful to reach quick decisions on these and the chat seemed to
be a reasonable way to do this. The current time is OK for me.
Simon
ant elder wrote:
> AFAICT no one has suggested a ban on IRC, what I'm trying to find out is if
> we should be continuing with the regularly scheduled weekly chat. If enough
> people don't think we should be having it then we should stop. Thats a
> perfectly fine thing to happen if thats what the community want, but its
> not
> going to get stopped unless those who don't think we should be having it
> speak up clearly. That's what this thread is about - " Are people happy
> with
> having our current weekly hour long IRC chat?"
>
> ...ant
>
--
Simon C Nash IBM Distinguished Engineer
Hursley Park, Winchester, UK nash@hursley.ibm.com
Tel. +44-1962-815156 Fax +44-1962-818999
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Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
AFAICT no one has suggested a ban on IRC, what I'm trying to find out is if
we should be continuing with the regularly scheduled weekly chat. If enough
people don't think we should be having it then we should stop. Thats a
perfectly fine thing to happen if thats what the community want, but its not
going to get stopped unless those who don't think we should be having it
speak up clearly. That's what this thread is about - " Are people happy with
having our current weekly hour long IRC chat?"
...ant
On 7/5/06, Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com> wrote:
>
> Ant was just trying to be helpful by gauging what people would like
> to use IRC for, although I also have to say I didn't interpret
> Jeremy's previous mail to be advocating a ban on IRC.
>
> I think there has been a lot of heated discussion on the list lately,
> and it would probably be good for us all to "chill out" a bit and not
> take things to extremes...
>
> That said, I find IRC chats useful as long as substantive discussions
> and all decisions of import take place on the list. I like how the
> chats provide an unstructured forum to ask quick questions and
> communicate. I don't think we need the overhead of having an
> agenda,"deciding" what gets discussed, or time boxing topics (as long
> as people have an equal opportunity to talk). I also don't see a
> problem if someone wants to send a note to the list saying they would
> like to discuss a particular topic so people can prepare ahead of time.
>
> Jim
>
> On Jul 5, 2006, at 8:29 AM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
>
> > On 7/5/06, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Are you saying you'd prefer not to participate, or do you want us
> >> all to
> >> stop having the weekly chat?
> >>
> >
> > Ant, please, that's not what I said at all.
> >
> > I said that, IMO (for what that's worth), I see the main benefit of
> > IRC is its use as tool to help reach consensus when discussions on the
> > mailing list bog down. Using IRC in that manner does not require a
> > scheduled meeting.
> >
> > As pointed out on the incubator thread, having a scheduled meeting can
> > act as a deterrant to participation. For example, one reason that I am
> > reluctant to join in some other IRC meetings is that they occur at
> > 5:30AM my time and my desire to participate does not exceed my desire
> > for sleep.
> >
> > As Jim pointed out here, people often have other commitments that may
> > impact their ability to participate - IIRC he cited travel issues.
> > Being async, email does not have those problems which is why it is the
> > preferred form of communication at the ASF.
> >
> > --
> > Jeremy
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: tuscany-dev-help@ws.apache.org
> >
>
>
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>
Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <je...@boynes.com>.
On Jul 5, 2006, at 8:57 AM, Jim Marino wrote:
> Ant was just trying to be helpful by gauging what people would like
> to use IRC for, although I also have to say I didn't interpret
> Jeremy's previous mail to be advocating a ban on IRC.
>
I did not mean to advocate that. Ironically, Ant and I were just
chatting on IRC about this (which fits the impromptu, reach consensus
model quite nicely :-)
Summarizing my position, I'm kind of -0 on the chats in their current
form, leaning to -1 if we start to add more structure and more
reliance on them to the detriment of email. I'm in favour of ad-hoc
decisions (appropriately summarized) and not necessarily opposed to
regular meetings in some other form.
--
Jeremy
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Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com>.
Ant was just trying to be helpful by gauging what people would like
to use IRC for, although I also have to say I didn't interpret
Jeremy's previous mail to be advocating a ban on IRC.
I think there has been a lot of heated discussion on the list lately,
and it would probably be good for us all to "chill out" a bit and not
take things to extremes...
That said, I find IRC chats useful as long as substantive discussions
and all decisions of import take place on the list. I like how the
chats provide an unstructured forum to ask quick questions and
communicate. I don't think we need the overhead of having an
agenda,"deciding" what gets discussed, or time boxing topics (as long
as people have an equal opportunity to talk). I also don't see a
problem if someone wants to send a note to the list saying they would
like to discuss a particular topic so people can prepare ahead of time.
Jim
On Jul 5, 2006, at 8:29 AM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
> On 7/5/06, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Are you saying you'd prefer not to participate, or do you want us
>> all to
>> stop having the weekly chat?
>>
>
> Ant, please, that's not what I said at all.
>
> I said that, IMO (for what that's worth), I see the main benefit of
> IRC is its use as tool to help reach consensus when discussions on the
> mailing list bog down. Using IRC in that manner does not require a
> scheduled meeting.
>
> As pointed out on the incubator thread, having a scheduled meeting can
> act as a deterrant to participation. For example, one reason that I am
> reluctant to join in some other IRC meetings is that they occur at
> 5:30AM my time and my desire to participate does not exceed my desire
> for sleep.
>
> As Jim pointed out here, people often have other commitments that may
> impact their ability to participate - IIRC he cited travel issues.
> Being async, email does not have those problems which is why it is the
> preferred form of communication at the ASF.
>
> --
> Jeremy
>
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Re: Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org>.
On 7/5/06, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Are you saying you'd prefer not to participate, or do you want us all to
> stop having the weekly chat?
>
Ant, please, that's not what I said at all.
I said that, IMO (for what that's worth), I see the main benefit of
IRC is its use as tool to help reach consensus when discussions on the
mailing list bog down. Using IRC in that manner does not require a
scheduled meeting.
As pointed out on the incubator thread, having a scheduled meeting can
act as a deterrant to participation. For example, one reason that I am
reluctant to join in some other IRC meetings is that they occur at
5:30AM my time and my desire to participate does not exceed my desire
for sleep.
As Jim pointed out here, people often have other commitments that may
impact their ability to participate - IIRC he cited travel issues.
Being async, email does not have those problems which is why it is the
preferred form of communication at the ASF.
--
Jeremy
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Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
Are you saying you'd prefer not to participate, or do you want us all to
stop having the weekly chat?
...ant
On 7/5/06, Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 7/5/06, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > There's a thread going on over on incubator-general about the use of
> IRC:
> > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=115111286000001&r=1&w=2
> >
> > Are people happy with having our current weekly hour long IRC chat? I
> find
> > the chat a useful way to find whats going on and gauge peoples opinions.
> A 1
> > hour chat isn't so long that its hard to read the chat log, we could
> > probably do better at providing a summary of what was said, and maybe
> post
> > the log and summary on the wiki so its easier to find. So I think the
> > current chat is useful and works ok but we can change this if others
> don't
> > like it.
> >
> > Currently the chat focus has been primarily Java SCA, should we try and
> > include C++ or SDO or DAS more? Or have separate extra chats for those?
> > Often the chat is one long rambling conversation, should we try to be
> more
> > structured and have a set 10 minutes for this, 10 minutes for that type
> of
> > thing to just get a regular status and have any followup discussion on
> the
> > mailing list?
> >
> > Is the 15:30GMT on Monday time slot ok?
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
>
> I'm not very comfortable with using IRC for these kind of weekly
> meetings - it seems too much like a "status meeting" to me. IMO if
> someone needs to be on IRC to see what is going on or what people's
> opinions are then we are not doing a good enough job of communicating
> on the mailing list.
>
> To me the main benefit from IRC is its immediacy. It provides a faster
> form of communication than email and that can be used to bring closure
> to issues that are dragging along on the list. In that mode, IRC
> discussions tend to more impromptu, more focused, and simpler to
> summarize as the subject is already well known.
>
> --
> Jeremy
>
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>
Re: Email versus IRC
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org>.
On 7/5/06, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There's a thread going on over on incubator-general about the use of IRC:
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=115111286000001&r=1&w=2
>
> Are people happy with having our current weekly hour long IRC chat? I find
> the chat a useful way to find whats going on and gauge peoples opinions. A 1
> hour chat isn't so long that its hard to read the chat log, we could
> probably do better at providing a summary of what was said, and maybe post
> the log and summary on the wiki so its easier to find. So I think the
> current chat is useful and works ok but we can change this if others don't
> like it.
>
> Currently the chat focus has been primarily Java SCA, should we try and
> include C++ or SDO or DAS more? Or have separate extra chats for those?
> Often the chat is one long rambling conversation, should we try to be more
> structured and have a set 10 minutes for this, 10 minutes for that type of
> thing to just get a regular status and have any followup discussion on the
> mailing list?
>
> Is the 15:30GMT on Monday time slot ok?
>
> What do you think?
>
I'm not very comfortable with using IRC for these kind of weekly
meetings - it seems too much like a "status meeting" to me. IMO if
someone needs to be on IRC to see what is going on or what people's
opinions are then we are not doing a good enough job of communicating
on the mailing list.
To me the main benefit from IRC is its immediacy. It provides a faster
form of communication than email and that can be used to bring closure
to issues that are dragging along on the list. In that mode, IRC
discussions tend to more impromptu, more focused, and simpler to
summarize as the subject is already well known.
--
Jeremy
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