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Posted to dev@netbeans.apache.org by Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net> on 2018/03/14 18:48:26 UTC
AW: AW: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will
removeJavaFXfromOracle JDK
So the example from Github, with Atom and the example of Microsoft with VS Code or Slack with the Desktop app, is not valuable enough for you? VS Code is such a fast DIE/Editor. And valuable against sublime for sure. It is very stable, is the most contributed Project on github etc. So I think yes there are such apps out there who are willing to try electron. And you can take a look here to see a lot of apps where built with electron: https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron. It is not because it is hip but it is an ecosystem for frontend developers who wants to create good looking Desktop apps with our Technology which is JS, HTML, and CSS. The same for GWT or Vaadin for Backend devs, who wants work in the frontend. I don’t say you have to and I don’t say it is the wholy grail, but it is a good alternative and not that bad.
Cheers
Chris
Von: cowwoc
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. März 2018 18:35
An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will removeJavaFXfromOracle JDK
I agree. If the web was such a great platform for desktop apps, you
would have seen many other projects/companies porting complex desktop
applications to it. They are not.
Web technologies are great for basic interfaces. They are utter garbage
for Filty Rich Clients.
Don't repeat the mistake of ORMs: jumping on a technology because it
looks great from far, only to discover that it doesn't do what you want
when you're "95% done".
Gili
On 2018-03-14 6:58 AM, Peter Steele wrote:
> One of the biggest limitations is the fact everything is single threaded.
> This isn't related to vaadin and gwt.
>
> I have used vaadin and like it alot, and to build certain types of
> applications it is a great candidate if you are used to java. I have also
> used GWT alot and have extended it for areas which it doesn't cover.
> (Vaadin uses GWT too)
>
> Another js pet hate for me is the fact it is not OO based, people have
> tried to put wrappers around us but they inevitably have issues because
> they are wrappers.
>
> Chrome has a good debugger but compared to debugging support from desktop
> languages it is inferior
>
> The language is too visual basic like for my taste, it's nice and easy to
> use but if you want to do anything complicated you are in trouble. Thumbs
> up for closure support, thumbs down for the complete over use of closures.
>
> Btw these are only my opinions, you may disagree with everything i say and
> that is ok. I am in the camp of "i will never use a web based ide" but i
> have no issues building apps that are designed for the web and work well on
> the web (like for thin clients). Forcing everything in to the browser is
> not they way forward.
>
>
> On 14 Mar 2018 10:26, "Christian Lenz" <ch...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> can you tell me which limitations you mean? As I wrote in an other thread,
> the limitations came from GWT. The Problem is that a Java developer doesn’t
> want to write HTML, CSS and JS so they are looking for an alternative. GWT
> or Vaadin or kotlin to js, I can’t understand that, but ok. So please don’t
> compare GWT or Vaadin with native JS.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
> Von: Peter Steele
> Gesendet: Montag, 12. März 2018 17:50
> An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove
> JavaFXfromOracle JDK
>
> Christian
>
> I am sure electron is good, but my personal preference is to not use a web
> ide. Javascript as a language has a lot of limitations. I have written gwt
> code to export java to html and you are limited a lot in how you design
> your apps.
>
> On 12 Mar 2018 16:40, "Christian Lenz" <ch...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> Have a look into electron apps. A lot of apps are written with this
>> Framework like VS Code and I think this is a big Player and you can see,
>> that it performs very well and it is performant as hell. Only to say one
> of
>> those apps.
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Chris
>> Von: Peter Steele
>> Gesendet: Montag, 12. März 2018 17:37
>> An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>> Betreff: Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX
>> fromOracle JDK
>>
>> What about the eclipse RCP framework which uses swt? This would seem to be
>> a much better solution than having a html front end.
>>
>> On 12 Mar 2018 16:25, "Neil C Smith" <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 15:59 Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you
>>> still
>>>> care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
>>>>
>>> Generally inclined to agree with you - definitely on forgetting JavaFX,
>> and
>>> probably on forgetting AWT/Swing (intrigued to see what actually happens
>>> there). I don't think HTML is the only game in town, but for a lot of
>>> things it's probably the right way forward.
>>>
>>> But, if we start turning to Apache HTML/Java way, what does it run in?
>>>
>>> Out of interest, I was looking at an example project using Vaadin
> running
>>> inside Electron recently. Have you tried this approach with HTML/Java?
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Neil
>>> --
>>> Neil C Smith
>>> Artist & Technologist
>>> www.neilcsmith.net
>>>
>>> Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
>>>
>>
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AW: AW: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will
removeJavaFXfromOracle JDK
Posted by Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>.
I think it is not really about Performance, I mean yes it is a part of it, but for me it is a mess to create the UI with atm the Mantisse Editor, which I pointed my biggest breakpoint fewer in the thread. Sure, it is one Point but for me it was never been easier to create good, nice, fancy how ever you want that the UI Looks like, UIs with my/web Technologies. Years ago we had WinForms, looked like Win NT and 95 style. Now we want to create nice UIs, century save not UIs decades ago. Sure it could be possible, but not that easy. Then you have Win32 API to create the UIs via real C/C++ Code. Then you have Qt to QXML where you create the UI with XML, like in Android. It is XML. HTML is for sure a bit different from XML but the way is clear I think.
JavaFX was for me an alternative to create good looking UIs with XML based designing and moving too. Same for C# WPF with XAML. So you can see a similarity of those Frameworks all brings XML based UI grid with a Styling which is similar to CSS because this is what works out best and you have to full Control.
Why I didn’t use JavaFX much, because, I tried to search, whether there is a way to create UIs, only the UIs with binding and interaction in HTML, because this is my eco System, my daily Business, I know much of it to know how to write it and been fast to create such UIs, you are working with Swing or JavaFX and you are fast with those Technologies. The Thing is, HTML is an alternative, it shouldn’t be a Limitation to say not swing, not javafx only HTML, it should be possible to say, hey we have Swing OR JavaFX or HTML so why not using it, if it is still possible?
At the Moment, what Ionic does and HTML4J, they use the WebView so a Little browser to render the HTML, but there could be an other Approach, what NativeScript does. It maps the UI to native controls or CodenameOne too, I think. This could be also good, if you think HTML within the WebView could be slows down the application. Just map (easier to say, I know) to native swing or javafx controls or whatever.
Cheers
Chris
Gesendet von Mail für Windows 10
Von: toni.epple@eppleton.de
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. März 2018 23:57
An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Betreff: AW: AW: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will removeJavaFXfromOracle JDK
Hi Christian,
You're experiencing something all the Java devs had to go through 10 years ago, when everyone still told us Java/Swing is so slow, and will never be able to keep up with real programming languages/native UIs, while we were coding really huge and fast Applications with it.
It takes some time until these prejudices wear off. Don't worry, it will slowly get better in 10 years or so 😉.
Cheers
Toni
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. März 2018 19:48
An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Betreff: AW: AW: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will removeJavaFXfromOracle JDK
So the example from Github, with Atom and the example of Microsoft with VS Code or Slack with the Desktop app, is not valuable enough for you? VS Code is such a fast DIE/Editor. And valuable against sublime for sure. It is very stable, is the most contributed Project on github etc. So I think yes there are such apps out there who are willing to try electron. And you can take a look here to see a lot of apps where built with electron: https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron. It is not because it is hip but it is an ecosystem for frontend developers who wants to create good looking Desktop apps with our Technology which is JS, HTML, and CSS. The same for GWT or Vaadin for Backend devs, who wants work in the frontend. I don’t say you have to and I don’t say it is the wholy grail, but it is a good alternative and not that bad.
Cheers
Chris
Von: cowwoc
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. März 2018 18:35
An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will removeJavaFXfromOracle JDK
I agree. If the web was such a great platform for desktop apps, you would have seen many other projects/companies porting complex desktop applications to it. They are not.
Web technologies are great for basic interfaces. They are utter garbage for Filty Rich Clients.
Don't repeat the mistake of ORMs: jumping on a technology because it looks great from far, only to discover that it doesn't do what you want when you're "95% done".
Gili
On 2018-03-14 6:58 AM, Peter Steele wrote:
> One of the biggest limitations is the fact everything is single threaded.
> This isn't related to vaadin and gwt.
>
> I have used vaadin and like it alot, and to build certain types of
> applications it is a great candidate if you are used to java. I have
> also used GWT alot and have extended it for areas which it doesn't cover.
> (Vaadin uses GWT too)
>
> Another js pet hate for me is the fact it is not OO based, people have
> tried to put wrappers around us but they inevitably have issues
> because they are wrappers.
>
> Chrome has a good debugger but compared to debugging support from
> desktop languages it is inferior
>
> The language is too visual basic like for my taste, it's nice and easy
> to use but if you want to do anything complicated you are in trouble.
> Thumbs up for closure support, thumbs down for the complete over use of closures.
>
> Btw these are only my opinions, you may disagree with everything i say
> and that is ok. I am in the camp of "i will never use a web based ide"
> but i have no issues building apps that are designed for the web and
> work well on the web (like for thin clients). Forcing everything in to
> the browser is not they way forward.
>
>
> On 14 Mar 2018 10:26, "Christian Lenz" <ch...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> can you tell me which limitations you mean? As I wrote in an other
> thread, the limitations came from GWT. The Problem is that a Java
> developer doesn’t want to write HTML, CSS and JS so they are looking
> for an alternative. GWT or Vaadin or kotlin to js, I can’t understand
> that, but ok. So please don’t compare GWT or Vaadin with native JS.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
> Von: Peter Steele
> Gesendet: Montag, 12. März 2018 17:50
> An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove
> JavaFXfromOracle JDK
>
> Christian
>
> I am sure electron is good, but my personal preference is to not use a
> web ide. Javascript as a language has a lot of limitations. I have
> written gwt code to export java to html and you are limited a lot in
> how you design your apps.
>
> On 12 Mar 2018 16:40, "Christian Lenz" <ch...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> Have a look into electron apps. A lot of apps are written with this
>> Framework like VS Code and I think this is a big Player and you can
>> see, that it performs very well and it is performant as hell. Only to
>> say one
> of
>> those apps.
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Chris
>> Von: Peter Steele
>> Gesendet: Montag, 12. März 2018 17:37
>> An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>> Betreff: Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove
>> JavaFX fromOracle JDK
>>
>> What about the eclipse RCP framework which uses swt? This would seem
>> to be a much better solution than having a html front end.
>>
>> On 12 Mar 2018 16:25, "Neil C Smith" <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 15:59 Jaroslav Tulach
>>> <ja...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case
>>>> you
>>> still
>>>> care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
>>>>
>>> Generally inclined to agree with you - definitely on forgetting
>>> JavaFX,
>> and
>>> probably on forgetting AWT/Swing (intrigued to see what actually
>>> happens there). I don't think HTML is the only game in town, but
>>> for a lot of things it's probably the right way forward.
>>>
>>> But, if we start turning to Apache HTML/Java way, what does it run in?
>>>
>>> Out of interest, I was looking at an example project using Vaadin
> running
>>> inside Electron recently. Have you tried this approach with HTML/Java?
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Neil
>>> --
>>> Neil C Smith
>>> Artist & Technologist
>>> www.neilcsmith.net
>>>
>>> Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding -
>>> www.praxislive.org
>>>
>>
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Re: AW: AW: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will
removeJavaFXfromOracle JDK
Posted by cowwoc <co...@bbs.darktech.org>.
The problem with browser UIs is not their performance (although that's
not great either). The problem is development productivity is utter crap.
The obvious problem is the lack of consistency between browsers, OSs,
and even versions thereof. The less obvious problem is the constant
churn: features that used to work no longer do, the constant need to
"upgrade" your framework, the total inability to produce non-trivial
visual layouts, etc.
Any idiot can make a form user interface. HTML/CSS/JS is great for this
but it is literally the easiest thing a UI framework can provide. People
are happy with these frameworks because the bar has been set so low. A
few years ago we were blown away by people doing drag-n-drop on the web.
Come on people. It's 1990 all over again.
So again... the amazing thing about web technologies is not web
technologies. It's the low learning curve. It's the fact that millions
of people can now write shit code (whereas before they couldn't code at
all).
If you could provide this same experience with Java, or any other
technology, then people would flock to it the same way that they flock
to web development today.
Ironically, the main thing keeping first-time developers away from Java
is Sun and Oracle's inability to internalize the User Experience. If
they invested more in client-side development they would inevitably have
to care more about the user experience of coding. Had they done this
they could have displaced Javascript as the de-facto web programming
language.
Gili
On 2018-03-14 6:57 PM, toni.epple@eppleton.de wrote:
> Hi Christian,
>
> You're experiencing something all the Java devs had to go through 10 years ago, when everyone still told us Java/Swing is so slow, and will never be able to keep up with real programming languages/native UIs, while we were coding really huge and fast Applications with it.
>
> It takes some time until these prejudices wear off. Don't worry, it will slowly get better in 10 years or so 😉.
>
> Cheers
>
> Toni
>
>
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. März 2018 19:48
> An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> Betreff: AW: AW: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will removeJavaFXfromOracle JDK
>
> So the example from Github, with Atom and the example of Microsoft with VS Code or Slack with the Desktop app, is not valuable enough for you? VS Code is such a fast DIE/Editor. And valuable against sublime for sure. It is very stable, is the most contributed Project on github etc. So I think yes there are such apps out there who are willing to try electron. And you can take a look here to see a lot of apps where built with electron: https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron. It is not because it is hip but it is an ecosystem for frontend developers who wants to create good looking Desktop apps with our Technology which is JS, HTML, and CSS. The same for GWT or Vaadin for Backend devs, who wants work in the frontend. I don’t say you have to and I don’t say it is the wholy grail, but it is a good alternative and not that bad.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
> Von: cowwoc
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. März 2018 18:35
> An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: AW: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will removeJavaFXfromOracle JDK
>
> I agree. If the web was such a great platform for desktop apps, you would have seen many other projects/companies porting complex desktop applications to it. They are not.
>
> Web technologies are great for basic interfaces. They are utter garbage for Filty Rich Clients.
>
> Don't repeat the mistake of ORMs: jumping on a technology because it looks great from far, only to discover that it doesn't do what you want when you're "95% done".
>
> Gili
>
> On 2018-03-14 6:58 AM, Peter Steele wrote:
>> One of the biggest limitations is the fact everything is single threaded.
>> This isn't related to vaadin and gwt.
>>
>> I have used vaadin and like it alot, and to build certain types of
>> applications it is a great candidate if you are used to java. I have
>> also used GWT alot and have extended it for areas which it doesn't cover.
>> (Vaadin uses GWT too)
>>
>> Another js pet hate for me is the fact it is not OO based, people have
>> tried to put wrappers around us but they inevitably have issues
>> because they are wrappers.
>>
>> Chrome has a good debugger but compared to debugging support from
>> desktop languages it is inferior
>>
>> The language is too visual basic like for my taste, it's nice and easy
>> to use but if you want to do anything complicated you are in trouble.
>> Thumbs up for closure support, thumbs down for the complete over use of closures.
>>
>> Btw these are only my opinions, you may disagree with everything i say
>> and that is ok. I am in the camp of "i will never use a web based ide"
>> but i have no issues building apps that are designed for the web and
>> work well on the web (like for thin clients). Forcing everything in to
>> the browser is not they way forward.
>>
>>
>> On 14 Mar 2018 10:26, "Christian Lenz" <ch...@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> can you tell me which limitations you mean? As I wrote in an other
>> thread, the limitations came from GWT. The Problem is that a Java
>> developer doesn’t want to write HTML, CSS and JS so they are looking
>> for an alternative. GWT or Vaadin or kotlin to js, I can’t understand
>> that, but ok. So please don’t compare GWT or Vaadin with native JS.
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> Von: Peter Steele
>> Gesendet: Montag, 12. März 2018 17:50
>> An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>> Betreff: Re: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove
>> JavaFXfromOracle JDK
>>
>> Christian
>>
>> I am sure electron is good, but my personal preference is to not use a
>> web ide. Javascript as a language has a lot of limitations. I have
>> written gwt code to export java to html and you are limited a lot in
>> how you design your apps.
>>
>> On 12 Mar 2018 16:40, "Christian Lenz" <ch...@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Have a look into electron apps. A lot of apps are written with this
>>> Framework like VS Code and I think this is a big Player and you can
>>> see, that it performs very well and it is performant as hell. Only to
>>> say one
>> of
>>> those apps.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Chris
>>> Von: Peter Steele
>>> Gesendet: Montag, 12. März 2018 17:37
>>> An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>>> Betreff: Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove
>>> JavaFX fromOracle JDK
>>>
>>> What about the eclipse RCP framework which uses swt? This would seem
>>> to be a much better solution than having a html front end.
>>>
>>> On 12 Mar 2018 16:25, "Neil C Smith" <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 15:59 Jaroslav Tulach
>>>> <ja...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case
>>>>> you
>>>> still
>>>>> care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
>>>>>
>>>> Generally inclined to agree with you - definitely on forgetting
>>>> JavaFX,
>>> and
>>>> probably on forgetting AWT/Swing (intrigued to see what actually
>>>> happens there). I don't think HTML is the only game in town, but
>>>> for a lot of things it's probably the right way forward.
>>>>
>>>> But, if we start turning to Apache HTML/Java way, what does it run in?
>>>>
>>>> Out of interest, I was looking at an example project using Vaadin
>> running
>>>> inside Electron recently. Have you tried this approach with HTML/Java?
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Neil
>>>> --
>>>> Neil C Smith
>>>> Artist & Technologist
>>>> www.neilcsmith.net
>>>>
>>>> Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding -
>>>> www.praxislive.org
>>>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
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>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
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>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
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AW: AW: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will removeJavaFXfromOracle JDK
Posted by to...@eppleton.de.
Hi Christian,
You're experiencing something all the Java devs had to go through 10 years ago, when everyone still told us Java/Swing is so slow, and will never be able to keep up with real programming languages/native UIs, while we were coding really huge and fast Applications with it.
It takes some time until these prejudices wear off. Don't worry, it will slowly get better in 10 years or so 😉.
Cheers
Toni
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. März 2018 19:48
An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Betreff: AW: AW: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will removeJavaFXfromOracle JDK
So the example from Github, with Atom and the example of Microsoft with VS Code or Slack with the Desktop app, is not valuable enough for you? VS Code is such a fast DIE/Editor. And valuable against sublime for sure. It is very stable, is the most contributed Project on github etc. So I think yes there are such apps out there who are willing to try electron. And you can take a look here to see a lot of apps where built with electron: https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron. It is not because it is hip but it is an ecosystem for frontend developers who wants to create good looking Desktop apps with our Technology which is JS, HTML, and CSS. The same for GWT or Vaadin for Backend devs, who wants work in the frontend. I don’t say you have to and I don’t say it is the wholy grail, but it is a good alternative and not that bad.
Cheers
Chris
Von: cowwoc
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. März 2018 18:35
An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will removeJavaFXfromOracle JDK
I agree. If the web was such a great platform for desktop apps, you would have seen many other projects/companies porting complex desktop applications to it. They are not.
Web technologies are great for basic interfaces. They are utter garbage for Filty Rich Clients.
Don't repeat the mistake of ORMs: jumping on a technology because it looks great from far, only to discover that it doesn't do what you want when you're "95% done".
Gili
On 2018-03-14 6:58 AM, Peter Steele wrote:
> One of the biggest limitations is the fact everything is single threaded.
> This isn't related to vaadin and gwt.
>
> I have used vaadin and like it alot, and to build certain types of
> applications it is a great candidate if you are used to java. I have
> also used GWT alot and have extended it for areas which it doesn't cover.
> (Vaadin uses GWT too)
>
> Another js pet hate for me is the fact it is not OO based, people have
> tried to put wrappers around us but they inevitably have issues
> because they are wrappers.
>
> Chrome has a good debugger but compared to debugging support from
> desktop languages it is inferior
>
> The language is too visual basic like for my taste, it's nice and easy
> to use but if you want to do anything complicated you are in trouble.
> Thumbs up for closure support, thumbs down for the complete over use of closures.
>
> Btw these are only my opinions, you may disagree with everything i say
> and that is ok. I am in the camp of "i will never use a web based ide"
> but i have no issues building apps that are designed for the web and
> work well on the web (like for thin clients). Forcing everything in to
> the browser is not they way forward.
>
>
> On 14 Mar 2018 10:26, "Christian Lenz" <ch...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> can you tell me which limitations you mean? As I wrote in an other
> thread, the limitations came from GWT. The Problem is that a Java
> developer doesn’t want to write HTML, CSS and JS so they are looking
> for an alternative. GWT or Vaadin or kotlin to js, I can’t understand
> that, but ok. So please don’t compare GWT or Vaadin with native JS.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
> Von: Peter Steele
> Gesendet: Montag, 12. März 2018 17:50
> An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove
> JavaFXfromOracle JDK
>
> Christian
>
> I am sure electron is good, but my personal preference is to not use a
> web ide. Javascript as a language has a lot of limitations. I have
> written gwt code to export java to html and you are limited a lot in
> how you design your apps.
>
> On 12 Mar 2018 16:40, "Christian Lenz" <ch...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> Have a look into electron apps. A lot of apps are written with this
>> Framework like VS Code and I think this is a big Player and you can
>> see, that it performs very well and it is performant as hell. Only to
>> say one
> of
>> those apps.
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Chris
>> Von: Peter Steele
>> Gesendet: Montag, 12. März 2018 17:37
>> An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>> Betreff: Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove
>> JavaFX fromOracle JDK
>>
>> What about the eclipse RCP framework which uses swt? This would seem
>> to be a much better solution than having a html front end.
>>
>> On 12 Mar 2018 16:25, "Neil C Smith" <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 15:59 Jaroslav Tulach
>>> <ja...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case
>>>> you
>>> still
>>>> care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
>>>>
>>> Generally inclined to agree with you - definitely on forgetting
>>> JavaFX,
>> and
>>> probably on forgetting AWT/Swing (intrigued to see what actually
>>> happens there). I don't think HTML is the only game in town, but
>>> for a lot of things it's probably the right way forward.
>>>
>>> But, if we start turning to Apache HTML/Java way, what does it run in?
>>>
>>> Out of interest, I was looking at an example project using Vaadin
> running
>>> inside Electron recently. Have you tried this approach with HTML/Java?
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Neil
>>> --
>>> Neil C Smith
>>> Artist & Technologist
>>> www.neilcsmith.net
>>>
>>> Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding -
>>> www.praxislive.org
>>>
>>
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Re: AW: AW: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will
removeJavaFXfromOracle JDK
Posted by Antonio <an...@vieiro.net>.
Hey,
Add also gitkraken [1] to the list of cool, fast, developer-oriented UIs
you can do with libchromiumcontent [2].
libchromiumcontent is BSD licensed, by the way, and is cross platform
and also well maintained.
Now that JavaFX (GPL/CPE) is going to be a separate download from the
JDK, I wonder what the difference would be between a JavaFX download or
a libchromiumcontent swing-enabled component download would be.
Cheers,
Antonio
[1]
https://www.gitkraken.com/features
[2]
https://github.com/electron/libchromiumcontent/tree/f0d7c2dc0d44960069a2d8b0a9f7c5722ceeb259
I don't think java-cef is a wrapper around libchromiumcontent, or is it?
https://github.com/chromiumembedded/java-cef
On 14/03/18 19:48, Christian Lenz wrote:
> So the example from Github, with Atom and the example of Microsoft with VS Code or Slack with the Desktop app, is not valuable enough for you? VS Code is such a fast DIE/Editor. And valuable against sublime for sure. It is very stable, is the most contributed Project on github etc. So I think yes there are such apps out there who are willing to try electron. And you can take a look here to see a lot of apps where built with electron: https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron. It is not because it is hip but it is an ecosystem for frontend developers who wants to create good looking Desktop apps with our Technology which is JS, HTML, and CSS. The same for GWT or Vaadin for Backend devs, who wants work in the frontend. I don’t say you have to and I don’t say it is the wholy grail, but it is a good alternative and not that bad.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
> Von: cowwoc
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. März 2018 18:35
> An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: AW: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will removeJavaFXfromOracle JDK
>
> I agree. If the web was such a great platform for desktop apps, you
> would have seen many other projects/companies porting complex desktop
> applications to it. They are not.
>
> Web technologies are great for basic interfaces. They are utter garbage
> for Filty Rich Clients.
>
> Don't repeat the mistake of ORMs: jumping on a technology because it
> looks great from far, only to discover that it doesn't do what you want
> when you're "95% done".
>
> Gili
>
> On 2018-03-14 6:58 AM, Peter Steele wrote:
>> One of the biggest limitations is the fact everything is single threaded.
>> This isn't related to vaadin and gwt.
>>
>> I have used vaadin and like it alot, and to build certain types of
>> applications it is a great candidate if you are used to java. I have also
>> used GWT alot and have extended it for areas which it doesn't cover.
>> (Vaadin uses GWT too)
>>
>> Another js pet hate for me is the fact it is not OO based, people have
>> tried to put wrappers around us but they inevitably have issues because
>> they are wrappers.
>>
>> Chrome has a good debugger but compared to debugging support from desktop
>> languages it is inferior
>>
>> The language is too visual basic like for my taste, it's nice and easy to
>> use but if you want to do anything complicated you are in trouble. Thumbs
>> up for closure support, thumbs down for the complete over use of closures.
>>
>> Btw these are only my opinions, you may disagree with everything i say and
>> that is ok. I am in the camp of "i will never use a web based ide" but i
>> have no issues building apps that are designed for the web and work well on
>> the web (like for thin clients). Forcing everything in to the browser is
>> not they way forward.
>>
>>
>> On 14 Mar 2018 10:26, "Christian Lenz" <ch...@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> can you tell me which limitations you mean? As I wrote in an other thread,
>> the limitations came from GWT. The Problem is that a Java developer doesn’t
>> want to write HTML, CSS and JS so they are looking for an alternative. GWT
>> or Vaadin or kotlin to js, I can’t understand that, but ok. So please don’t
>> compare GWT or Vaadin with native JS.
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> Von: Peter Steele
>> Gesendet: Montag, 12. März 2018 17:50
>> An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>> Betreff: Re: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove
>> JavaFXfromOracle JDK
>>
>> Christian
>>
>> I am sure electron is good, but my personal preference is to not use a web
>> ide. Javascript as a language has a lot of limitations. I have written gwt
>> code to export java to html and you are limited a lot in how you design
>> your apps.
>>
>> On 12 Mar 2018 16:40, "Christian Lenz" <ch...@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Have a look into electron apps. A lot of apps are written with this
>>> Framework like VS Code and I think this is a big Player and you can see,
>>> that it performs very well and it is performant as hell. Only to say one
>> of
>>> those apps.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Chris
>>> Von: Peter Steele
>>> Gesendet: Montag, 12. März 2018 17:37
>>> An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>>> Betreff: Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX
>>> fromOracle JDK
>>>
>>> What about the eclipse RCP framework which uses swt? This would seem to be
>>> a much better solution than having a html front end.
>>>
>>> On 12 Mar 2018 16:25, "Neil C Smith" <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 15:59 Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you
>>>> still
>>>>> care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
>>>>>
>>>> Generally inclined to agree with you - definitely on forgetting JavaFX,
>>> and
>>>> probably on forgetting AWT/Swing (intrigued to see what actually happens
>>>> there). I don't think HTML is the only game in town, but for a lot of
>>>> things it's probably the right way forward.
>>>>
>>>> But, if we start turning to Apache HTML/Java way, what does it run in?
>>>>
>>>> Out of interest, I was looking at an example project using Vaadin
>> running
>>>> inside Electron recently. Have you tried this approach with HTML/Java?
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Neil
>>>> --
>>>> Neil C Smith
>>>> Artist & Technologist
>>>> www.neilcsmith.net
>>>>
>>>> Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
>>>>
>>>
>
>
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>
>
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