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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> on 2012/10/11 03:06:11 UTC
[DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Hi!
ever since Bigtop has incubated I've been thinking
about the experience that I've had and that it would
be very nice if I could help the new projects at least
1/10th the amount of help I received from some of the
mentors.
Also, seeing a steady stream of graduating projects
I would imagine that some of the newly appointed
VPs might also want to help (especially while the
experience of going through the Incubator is still
fresh :-)).
Now, as it stands it seems like there are two issues
that would prevent somebody like me to actually
help the existing pool of mentors shoulder the
responsibility of shepherding the new podlings:
#1 formal mentors are required to be IMPC
#2 the good mentoring skills need to be honed
over time and can't be assumed
So here's what I'm wondering: is there a place for
a Jr. Mentor type of a role within the Incubator?
Basically somebody who can help more Sr. mentors
with more mundane tasks, but still deffer to their
judgement in certain cases.
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:33 AM, Jakob Homan <jg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You go and help the community out in general and, when it comes time
>> for a release, you do all the things a regular mentor would do. If
>> you catch issues with the release, this will be a big help. No one is
>> going to ignore your assistance just because you don't have a specific
>> title.
>
> There's no disagreement with any of this. However, see my 'how would
> it help to clear 3 +1 IPMC votes hurdle' question on this thread'?...
If you help podlings as described above, I'd expect the Incubator PMC
to be willing to vote you in as an Incubator PMC member. We do have a
few mentors who are not ASF members already.
-Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
> My point is only that I'd prefer to give Roman, and people like him, a
> +1 on the IPMC (assuming people vouch for him) than have someone else
> voting +1 on a release without doing appropriate due diligence.
I certainly agree with this.
>
> Ross
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> IPMC, on the other hand, feels different since, practically speaking, the
> accumulation of the kind of merit IPMC cares for require *some* level
> of IPMC karma already.
There is an open question currently lingering on general@incubator from the
JSPWiki folks about whether content from jspwiki.org of uncertain provenance
may be migrated to Apache servers. To respond to this question -- possibly
with a speculative, partial answer -- you don't need to be an IPMC member.
You just need some amount of familiarity with Apache policy and licensing in
general, or the willingness to go acquire it.
The most straightforward way to contribute to the Incubator is to field
questions, either on general@incubator or on podling dev lists. If the
questions are challenging and require that you go spelunk some Apache
documentation or mailing list archives, so much the better -- the research is
its own reward.
Other straightforward ways to contribute include reviewing releases and
working on the Incubator's documentation.
None of these activities require IPMC karma.
I can think of four people who were voted onto the IPMC in the last couple
years after making contributions to the Incubator at large: Dave Fisher, Karl
Wright, Matthew Franklin, and myself. Dave, Matt and I are still active in
the Incubator; all of us are highly active and successful at Apache.
Personally, I regard the Incubator as a fascinating project in its own right,
solving hard problems in open source. Others might have a different
perspective or a more narrow interest. Regardless of motivation, podling
contributors do themselves and their projects a world of good when they reach
out across the Incubator, communicating and collaborating with other
podlings -- and I look forward to recognizing the merit of such contributors,
because the Incubator succeeds when they succeed.
Marvin Humphrey
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 16 October 2012 16:31, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:20 AM, Ross Gardler
> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>> My point is only that I'd prefer to give Roman, and people like him, a
>> +1 on the IPMC (assuming people vouch for him) than have someone else
>> voting +1 on a release without doing appropriate due diligence.
>
> If that's the easiest practical route -- please let me know what's needed
> for this 'vouch' process.
It's already happening - see the VOTE thread ;-)
> Now, part of the reason I'm asking this unusual (from ASF's meritocracy
> perspective) question is because in all other PMCs the accumulated
> merit is what really 'vouches' for the person during the PMC nomination.
Correct. I am not aware of your work in the Incubator so I can't vote
+1 for you (I'm +0). But as you will see there are plenty of people
who feel they can recognise your merit. Job done.
> IPMC, on the other hand, feels different since, practically speaking, the
> accumulation of the kind of merit IPMC cares for require *some* level
> of IPMC karma already.
Historically the IPMC has been ASF Members request to join and are
granted as a matter of course. Around six months ago we started to
change this when and voted in someone like yourself, who had
demonstrated sufficient merit here in the Incubator to warrant IPMC
membership regardless of ASF Member status. As it happens they are now
a Member as well, but in the few months between IPMC vote and
Membership vote he had already helped with reviews and binding +1s on
a couple of podling releases.
So you are right IPMC has, historically been a little different, but
not really by design and we are changing this as we speak. As you can
see from the VOTE thread the process is now much more like it is
elsewhere in the ASF.
Ross
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
> P.S. In the meantime I'm already reaching out to existing mentors of
> some of the proposed podlings offering my help -- so far so good!
>
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--
Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
Programme Leader (Open Development)
OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:20 AM, Ross Gardler
<rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> My point is only that I'd prefer to give Roman, and people like him, a
> +1 on the IPMC (assuming people vouch for him) than have someone else
> voting +1 on a release without doing appropriate due diligence.
If that's the easiest practical route -- please let me know what's needed
for this 'vouch' process.
Now, part of the reason I'm asking this unusual (from ASF's meritocracy
perspective) question is because in all other PMCs the accumulated
merit is what really 'vouches' for the person during the PMC nomination.
IPMC, on the other hand, feels different since, practically speaking, the
accumulation of the kind of merit IPMC cares for require *some* level
of IPMC karma already.
Thanks,
Roman.
P.S. In the meantime I'm already reaching out to existing mentors of
some of the proposed podlings offering my help -- so far so good!
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 15 October 2012 12:29, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This whole thread was launched, if I read Ross' remark correctly, by
> my doing something stupid. I've apologized. It's not at all clear to
> me that my mistake is example of a common kind of stupidity.
Nope. My position is not prompted by any individuals actions. My
comments are general in nature. I suspect there are lots of people who
vote +1 without doing a full review (the number of people who don't
know what a full review is points to this fact).
Roman asks a very important question and I think we have diverted from
that question. He asked how can he help with getting podling releases
out the door. He also points out that the response of "just get in
there and help" doesn't solve the "3 +1s" issue.
My point is only that I'd prefer to give Roman, and people like him, a
+1 on the IPMC (assuming people vouch for him) than have someone else
voting +1 on a release without doing appropriate due diligence.
Ross
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
This whole thread was launched, if I read Ross' remark correctly, by
my doing something stupid. I've apologized. It's not at all clear to
me that my mistake is example of a common kind of stupidity.
I perceive, however, an ambiguity. The phrase 'proper IP
verification,' more or less, has echoed down this thread. What is it?
Can anyone define it? It has better not, for example, mean 'scanned
every file in the release for an appropriate header.'
A release is the result of a process. The job of the incubator is to
teach podlings that process. A real 'full IP verification' would
involve tracing all the IP back through the commits -- and,
ultimately, that the committers are committing their own work. That's
clearly not going to happen. Instead, what's supposed to happen is
that IPMC members are supplementing and supervising the PPMC members
in policing themselves.
NOTICE, LICENSE, and all of that are the "limbs and outward
flourishes" of the process. There are some subtleties to their correct
construction, and the 'release task force' is a means of harnessing
expertise to check them.
If a podling is getting proper attention from its mentors, then IPMC
members should have confidence in the process. They should be able to
check the big-ticket items, make a few spot-checks, and thus
contribute a level of extra assurance.
If a podling has not been getting proper attention from its mentors
for a very long time, it needs new mentors, and those mentors need to
invest effort in making up for prior inattention.
At the risk of further reopening lengthy threads of a year ago, I'll
pose a question: what does it mean to be a member of the IPMC?
Membership in any PMC is an acceptance of collective responsibility
for supervision of the activities in of the PMC. You can dig into the
details of one or more podlings and be a mentor. You can help
cross-check and be a shepherd. Just hanging out and voting for
proposals and graduations? In spite of this rhetorical flourish, my
argument above agrees with Marvin. Podlings need mentors who pay
attention.
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
I dont disapprove of what you call "freelance votes". I disapprove of votes
not backed by proper review efforts.
Other than that I agree with all you say.
Sent from mobile, forgive terseness and errors
On Oct 15, 2012 3:43 AM, "Marvin Humphrey" <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Ross Gardler
> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 13, 2012 2:59 AM, "Marvin Humphrey" <ma...@rectangular.com>
> wrote:
> >> That the Incubator's release process would grind to a halt without
> >> "freelance" IPMC votes exposes a systemic flaw.
> >
> > Also agreed. I think Jukka's release taskforce idea is a good way to
> > address this.
>
> Unfortunately, the "release task force" proposal relies heavily on
> freelancing
> IPMC members:
>
> http://markmail.org/message/puoeu6yjtxxnqb3w
>
> In concrete terms I'd like the task force to 1) be the first port of
> call
> for podlings who're failing to get enough +1s from their mentors
>
> I don't see how you reconcile that with your disapproval of freelance
> votes.
>
> The systemic flaw of the Incubator is that for the duration of incubation,
> podlings are governed not by their contributors, but by IPMC members who
> are
> comparatively less invested in the project, scarce, and subject to
> attrition.
>
> The "task force" approach is unsustainable because freelance release
> reviewing
> is hard and because duty to the Incubator is a weaker motivator than
> loyalty
> to a specific podling.
>
> I'm tired of reading plaintive messages from podling RMs begging for IPMC
> votes a week after the VOTE thread should have closed. This is our
> problem,
> not theirs. The least we can do is start sending the reminders ourselves.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Ross Gardler
<rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 2012 2:59 AM, "Marvin Humphrey" <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>> That the Incubator's release process would grind to a halt without
>> "freelance" IPMC votes exposes a systemic flaw.
>
> Also agreed. I think Jukka's release taskforce idea is a good way to
> address this.
Unfortunately, the "release task force" proposal relies heavily on freelancing
IPMC members:
http://markmail.org/message/puoeu6yjtxxnqb3w
In concrete terms I'd like the task force to 1) be the first port of call
for podlings who're failing to get enough +1s from their mentors
I don't see how you reconcile that with your disapproval of freelance votes.
The systemic flaw of the Incubator is that for the duration of incubation,
podlings are governed not by their contributors, but by IPMC members who are
comparatively less invested in the project, scarce, and subject to attrition.
The "task force" approach is unsustainable because freelance release reviewing
is hard and because duty to the Incubator is a weaker motivator than loyalty
to a specific podling.
I'm tired of reading plaintive messages from podling RMs begging for IPMC
votes a week after the VOTE thread should have closed. This is our problem,
not theirs. The least we can do is start sending the reminders ourselves.
Marvin Humphrey
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
Sent from my tablet
On Oct 13, 2012 2:59 AM, "Marvin Humphrey" <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 1:06 AM, Ross Gardler
> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> > Nobody, in my opinion, sh8old be voting on a release without having
> > conducted the appropriate verifications themselves.
>
> -0
>
> I agree -- but that's not going far enough.
>
> In my view, no one should vote on a release unless they're subscribed to
the
> podling's dev list.
>
Agreed.
> That the Incubator's release process would grind to a halt without
"freelance"
> IPMC votes exposes a systemic flaw.
>
Also agreed. I think Jukka's release taskforce idea is a good way to
address this.
With respect to the rest of the thread, all very valid but I think the
above points are the important ones.
Ross
> >> The first AOO release got my freelance IPMC vote because it was clear
that
> >> they knew what they were doing and were taking their role as IP
stewards
> >
> > (As a mentor I also voted +1 so don't take my next comments personally)
> >
> > This is a perfect example of why proper reviews are necessary. In the
> > second AOO release a problem was discovered (that was present in the
first
> > release).
>
> After reviewing the thread at <
http://markmail.org/message/2penzb453qzo55rz>
> and seeing people competently and earnestly work through a thorny issue,
I'm
> inclined to draw the opposite conclusion. Rather than a failure of
oversight,
> this seems like an example of successful empowerment and self-policing.
>
> In the real world, IP bugs happen. (Just look at all the slop we see in
> LICENSE and NOTICE files.) To my mind, what matters most is not whether a
> project can avoid all IP bugs forever, but whether the team possesses
both the
> capacity and the will to detect and dispatch IP bugs efficiently.
>
> >> , it is much more important that the community members own the task of
IP
> >> management themselves than that they pass any sort of superficial
> >> documentation review.
> >
> > Isn't that a contradiction? If you voted +1 on the grounds of the PPMC
> > knowing what they we doing isn't that a the most "superficial of
> > documentation reviews"?
>
> My position is that the oversight mechanisms generally employed by the
> Incubator, such as license header scans, are inherently superficial even
when
> executed conscientiously. A truly rigorous IP audit would proceed either
> line-by-line, or commit-by-commit to match up with the standard of an
Apache
> PMC scrutinizing individual messages to a commits list.
>
> For the record, my review of the first AOO release candidate was
considerably
> more thorough than the norm. In fact, I doubt you will find a more
thorough
> review of an incubating release by a non-Mentor in the last two years, and
> perhaps not for a long time before that.
>
> Here are links to the review thread and to my final VOTE:
>
> http://markmail.org/thread/b4wdzilemtu36i4a
> http://markmail.org/message/ejs6qw6kpr22o3ps
>
> > It seems all you reviewed was some mailing list traffic.
>
> That's completely inaccurate.
>
> Please review the review thread. I went several rounds with Jürgen
Schmidt,
> though the work was spread out across multiple people and multiple lists.
> LICENSE and NOTICE were reformulated and we built consensus for the new
> approach both here and on legal-discuss. We pored over the rat-excludes
file
> and got RAT passing. When I found that the svn tag and the release
archive
> did not match, we had a discussion about scripting release builds. We
> discussed why the file name had to include the string "incubating", file
> formats for sums and sigs, etc, etc...
>
> > I encourage us to empower more people who do the work so their vot3s are
> > binding.
>
> In my opinion, it's ridiculous that Jürgen Schmidt's heroics on the first
AOO
> release did not earn him a binding vote on the second.
>
> When it comes to release voting, the Incubator does not recognize merit,
and
> the Incubator does not encourage self-government. The miserable
experience of
> podlings as they twist in the wind for weeks awaiting "freelance" votes
from
> disintested IPMC members is the inevitable result.
>
> I'm glad that Roman wants to do his part to spare Helix from that fate,
and I
> wish him the best of luck. Personally, I have made a decision not to
perform
> any more freelance reviews. It is difficult to do them well, and each +1
> serves to perpetuate a rotten system.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 1:06 AM, Ross Gardler
<rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> Nobody, in my opinion, sh8old be voting on a release without having
> conducted the appropriate verifications themselves.
-0
I agree -- but that's not going far enough.
In my view, no one should vote on a release unless they're subscribed to the
podling's dev list.
That the Incubator's release process would grind to a halt without "freelance"
IPMC votes exposes a systemic flaw.
>> The first AOO release got my freelance IPMC vote because it was clear that
>> they knew what they were doing and were taking their role as IP stewards
>
> (As a mentor I also voted +1 so don't take my next comments personally)
>
> This is a perfect example of why proper reviews are necessary. In the
> second AOO release a problem was discovered (that was present in the first
> release).
After reviewing the thread at <http://markmail.org/message/2penzb453qzo55rz>
and seeing people competently and earnestly work through a thorny issue, I'm
inclined to draw the opposite conclusion. Rather than a failure of oversight,
this seems like an example of successful empowerment and self-policing.
In the real world, IP bugs happen. (Just look at all the slop we see in
LICENSE and NOTICE files.) To my mind, what matters most is not whether a
project can avoid all IP bugs forever, but whether the team possesses both the
capacity and the will to detect and dispatch IP bugs efficiently.
>> , it is much more important that the community members own the task of IP
>> management themselves than that they pass any sort of superficial
>> documentation review.
>
> Isn't that a contradiction? If you voted +1 on the grounds of the PPMC
> knowing what they we doing isn't that a the most "superficial of
> documentation reviews"?
My position is that the oversight mechanisms generally employed by the
Incubator, such as license header scans, are inherently superficial even when
executed conscientiously. A truly rigorous IP audit would proceed either
line-by-line, or commit-by-commit to match up with the standard of an Apache
PMC scrutinizing individual messages to a commits list.
For the record, my review of the first AOO release candidate was considerably
more thorough than the norm. In fact, I doubt you will find a more thorough
review of an incubating release by a non-Mentor in the last two years, and
perhaps not for a long time before that.
Here are links to the review thread and to my final VOTE:
http://markmail.org/thread/b4wdzilemtu36i4a
http://markmail.org/message/ejs6qw6kpr22o3ps
> It seems all you reviewed was some mailing list traffic.
That's completely inaccurate.
Please review the review thread. I went several rounds with Jürgen Schmidt,
though the work was spread out across multiple people and multiple lists.
LICENSE and NOTICE were reformulated and we built consensus for the new
approach both here and on legal-discuss. We pored over the rat-excludes file
and got RAT passing. When I found that the svn tag and the release archive
did not match, we had a discussion about scripting release builds. We
discussed why the file name had to include the string "incubating", file
formats for sums and sigs, etc, etc...
> I encourage us to empower more people who do the work so their vot3s are
> binding.
In my opinion, it's ridiculous that Jürgen Schmidt's heroics on the first AOO
release did not earn him a binding vote on the second.
When it comes to release voting, the Incubator does not recognize merit, and
the Incubator does not encourage self-government. The miserable experience of
podlings as they twist in the wind for weeks awaiting "freelance" votes from
disintested IPMC members is the inevitable result.
I'm glad that Roman wants to do his part to spare Helix from that fate, and I
wish him the best of luck. Personally, I have made a decision not to perform
any more freelance reviews. It is difficult to do them well, and each +1
serves to perpetuate a rotten system.
Marvin Humphrey
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
Sent from my tablet
On Oct 11, 2012 8:01 PM, "Marvin Humphrey" <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> > However, see my 'how would it help to clear 3 +1 IPMC votes hurdle'
question
> > on this thread'?
>
> If you help to audit the IP of the podling and to instill good habits and
> values, it will make it considerably easier for the formal Mentors or
other
> IPMC members to add their +1.
>
I hope not. Nobody, in my opinion, sh8old be voting on a release without
having conducted the appropriate verifications themselves.
I'm all for enabling more people who have demonstrated an understanding of
the important of proper release voting to be a part of the IPMC.
> The first AOO release got my freelance IPMC vote because it was clear that
> they knew what they were doing and were taking their role as IP stewards
(As a mentor I also voted +1 so don't take my next comments personally)
This is a perfect example of why proper reviews are necessary. In the
second AOO release a problem was discovered (that was present in the first
release). Everyone who voted +1 either missed it (human error) or gave the
false impression that they had verified the release.
> , it is much more important
> that the community members own the task of IP management themselves than
that
> they pass any sort of superficial documentation review.
Isn't that a contradiction? If you voted +1 on the grounds of the PPMC
knowing what they we doing isn't that a the most "superficial of
documentation reviews"? It seems all you reviewed was some mailing list
traffic.
There is no doubt the PPMC was doing a pretty good job but without proper
oversight from mentors there are a number of short cuts that would have
been taken that would have been against policy. There really needs to be a
proper review by everyone who votes. That's why we require 3 +1s rather
than a majority or some other high barrier.
> PS: People who help out with this demanding and time-consuming work
accumulate
> the sort of merit that lands them on the IPMC and in the ASF
membership.
>
+1
I encourage us to empower more people who do the work so their vot3s are
binding.
Ross
> Marvin Humphrey
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> However, see my 'how would it help to clear 3 +1 IPMC votes hurdle' question
> on this thread'?
If you help to audit the IP of the podling and to instill good habits and
values, it will make it considerably easier for the formal Mentors or other
IPMC members to add their +1.
The first AOO release got my freelance IPMC vote because it was clear that
they knew what they were doing and were taking their role as IP stewards
seriously. It would have been absurd for me to attempt review of even a tiny
fraction of that codebase -- and in the long run, it is much more important
that the community members own the task of IP management themselves than that
they pass any sort of superficial documentation review.
PS: People who help out with this demanding and time-consuming work accumulate
the sort of merit that lands them on the IPMC and in the ASF membership.
Marvin Humphrey
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:33 AM, Jakob Homan <jg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You go and help the community out in general and, when it comes time
> for a release, you do all the things a regular mentor would do. If
> you catch issues with the release, this will be a big help. No one is
> going to ignore your assistance just because you don't have a specific
> title.
There's no disagreement with any of this. However, see my 'how would
it help to clear 3 +1 IPMC votes hurdle' question on this thread'?
Thanks,
Roman.
P.S. It is an honest question -- if we all agree that the answer to it
is: "it won't" -- that's a fine answer too. The only downside side to
this answer is that it limits the potential usefulness of my involvement.
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Jakob Homan <jg...@gmail.com>.
> Great. Lets make it practical -- there's a Helix project that is currently
> being proposed for incubation. I'm very much interested in helping
> it to grow into a TLP eventually. Given how closely it aligns with some
> of the things we're trying to do in Bigtop -- I'm definitely joining the
> community.
>
> What are the next steps for me, if I would like to volunteer some of
> my time to support the formal mentors of the project?
You go and help the community out in general and, when it comes time
for a release, you do all the things a regular mentor would do. If
you catch issues with the release, this will be a big help. No one is
going to ignore your assistance just because you don't have a specific
title.
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 1:32 AM, Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk> wrote:
> I guess I would encourage you to do as Luciano suggests, and to chat to
> mentors on a project that you might help with.
Great. Lets make it practical -- there's a Helix project that is currently
being proposed for incubation. I'm very much interested in helping
it to grow into a TLP eventually. Given how closely it aligns with some
of the things we're trying to do in Bigtop -- I'm definitely joining the
community.
What are the next steps for me, if I would like to volunteer some of
my time to support the formal mentors of the project?
What about any other project that is being proposed for incubation?
Should it all just be on an ad-hoc basis where I reach out to
existing mentors and offer my help?
> It is not uncommon for mentors to feel stretched, and thus might appreciate
> some help with their mentoring duties.
Simply joining a community is definitely very, very useful, but I guess
what I was alluding to is a notion that the official IPMC members can
count on somebody coming as a Jr. Mentor as far as handling some
of the more mundane tasks of mentoring is concerned.
Of course, everything in Apache is done by volunteers, but there are
are different levels of this volunteer commitment. It just so happens that
formal mentors are expected to volunteer a bit more of their time to
help podlings. Members of the podling community know that they can
reach out to mentors and expect an answer, where's if they simply
reach out to the community (or any particular member of the community)
there's no presumption that cycles will be available.
Hence my suggestion -- a more designated role that can be viewed by
the podling community in the same way as they view mentors.
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Suresh Marru <sm...@apache.org> wrote:
> But great suggestion Luciano (to use all the incumbent IPMC to help more while experiences are fresh).
> My personal opinion is, the easiest way to look for projects needing help is during releases. If a project
> comes to general list without the needed binding 3 IPMC votes, its highly likely that podling needs mentors
> who can spare time to validate the releases. If any podling is struggling to get the releases out, it might be
> useful for us to even take one more extra step and subscribe to the podling dev list and help getting the
> releases right even before they are called for vote.
Validating a release is probably the greatest example of why I asked
the question
and suggested that formalization might be needed. At this point, being
a VP of a TLP
at Apache I feel pretty confident that I can help podlings with good feedback
on release practices. However, I can't really help them clear the '3 IPMC votes'
hurdle, can I?
Thanks,
Roman.
P.S. Same question could be asked wrt. other activities requiring IPMC
karma, btw.
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Suresh Marru <sm...@apache.org>.
On Oct 11, 2012, at 4:32 AM, Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk> wrote:
> There's that, and also the fact that no two mentors have the same level
> of experience anyway, so what you describe is possible within the
> current structures, just isn't formalized.
I am not sure if formalizing the role is neded. I agree with Upayavira that the current structure has varying expertise anyway. And more mentoring varies from one mentor to another. I have seen one mentor focuses on community aspects more, while others focus on releases and legal requirements more and so on. All of these roles combined are very helpful.
But great suggestion Luciano (to use all the incumbent IPMC to help more while experiences are fresh). My personal opinion is, the easiest way to look for projects needing help is during releases. If a project comes to general list without the needed binding 3 IPMC votes, its highly likely that podling needs mentors who can spare time to validate the releases. If any podling is struggling to get the releases out, it might be useful for us to even take one more extra step and subscribe to the podling dev list and help getting the releases right even before they are called for vote.
Suresh
>
> I guess I would encourage you to do as Luciano suggests, and to chat to
> mentors on a project that you might help with. It is not uncommon for
> mentors to feel stretched, and thus might appreciate some help with
> their mentoring duties.
>
> Upayavira
>
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012, at 06:19 AM, Luciano Resende wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> ever since Bigtop has incubated I've been thinking
>>> about the experience that I've had and that it would
>>> be very nice if I could help the new projects at least
>>> 1/10th the amount of help I received from some of the
>>> mentors.
>>>
>>> Also, seeing a steady stream of graduating projects
>>> I would imagine that some of the newly appointed
>>> VPs might also want to help (especially while the
>>> experience of going through the Incubator is still
>>> fresh :-)).
>>>
>>> Now, as it stands it seems like there are two issues
>>> that would prevent somebody like me to actually
>>> help the existing pool of mentors shoulder the
>>> responsibility of shepherding the new podlings:
>>> #1 formal mentors are required to be IMPC
>>> #2 the good mentoring skills need to be honed
>>> over time and can't be assumed
>>>
>>> So here's what I'm wondering: is there a place for
>>> a Jr. Mentor type of a role within the Incubator?
>>> Basically somebody who can help more Sr. mentors
>>> with more mundane tasks, but still deffer to their
>>> judgement in certain cases.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Roman.
>>>
>>
>> While official mentors are responsible to help the podling and also
>> report back to IPMC when there are issues, anyone can join a community
>> (podling or TLP) and help the community on "The Apache Way" and with
>> time, you would be recognized by your peers and start building Karma
>> towards different levels at Apache and the projects.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Luciano Resende
>> http://people.apache.org/~lresende
>> http://twitter.com/lresende1975
>> http://lresende.blogspot.com/
>>
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>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk>.
There's that, and also the fact that no two mentors have the same level
of experience anyway, so what you describe is possible within the
current structures, just isn't formalised.
I guess I would encourage you to do as Luciano suggests, and to chat to
mentors on a project that you might help with. It is not uncommon for
mentors to feel stretched, and thus might appreciate some help with
their mentoring duties.
Upayavira
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012, at 06:19 AM, Luciano Resende wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > ever since Bigtop has incubated I've been thinking
> > about the experience that I've had and that it would
> > be very nice if I could help the new projects at least
> > 1/10th the amount of help I received from some of the
> > mentors.
> >
> > Also, seeing a steady stream of graduating projects
> > I would imagine that some of the newly appointed
> > VPs might also want to help (especially while the
> > experience of going through the Incubator is still
> > fresh :-)).
> >
> > Now, as it stands it seems like there are two issues
> > that would prevent somebody like me to actually
> > help the existing pool of mentors shoulder the
> > responsibility of shepherding the new podlings:
> > #1 formal mentors are required to be IMPC
> > #2 the good mentoring skills need to be honed
> > over time and can't be assumed
> >
> > So here's what I'm wondering: is there a place for
> > a Jr. Mentor type of a role within the Incubator?
> > Basically somebody who can help more Sr. mentors
> > with more mundane tasks, but still deffer to their
> > judgement in certain cases.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Roman.
> >
>
> While official mentors are responsible to help the podling and also
> report back to IPMC when there are issues, anyone can join a community
> (podling or TLP) and help the community on "The Apache Way" and with
> time, you would be recognized by your peers and start building Karma
> towards different levels at Apache and the projects.
>
>
> --
> Luciano Resende
> http://people.apache.org/~lresende
> http://twitter.com/lresende1975
> http://lresende.blogspot.com/
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Jr. Mentor role
Posted by Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> ever since Bigtop has incubated I've been thinking
> about the experience that I've had and that it would
> be very nice if I could help the new projects at least
> 1/10th the amount of help I received from some of the
> mentors.
>
> Also, seeing a steady stream of graduating projects
> I would imagine that some of the newly appointed
> VPs might also want to help (especially while the
> experience of going through the Incubator is still
> fresh :-)).
>
> Now, as it stands it seems like there are two issues
> that would prevent somebody like me to actually
> help the existing pool of mentors shoulder the
> responsibility of shepherding the new podlings:
> #1 formal mentors are required to be IMPC
> #2 the good mentoring skills need to be honed
> over time and can't be assumed
>
> So here's what I'm wondering: is there a place for
> a Jr. Mentor type of a role within the Incubator?
> Basically somebody who can help more Sr. mentors
> with more mundane tasks, but still deffer to their
> judgement in certain cases.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
While official mentors are responsible to help the podling and also
report back to IPMC when there are issues, anyone can join a community
(podling or TLP) and help the community on "The Apache Way" and with
time, you would be recognized by your peers and start building Karma
towards different levels at Apache and the projects.
--
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/
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