Unreleased Coccon Code in Forrest 0.8

[Ferdinand Soethe <fe...@apache.org>]

An Apache colleague looking at Forrest 0.8 just noticed that
we have used unreleased Cocoon Code in our release and told
me that this is not longer permitted.

Do we need top change our release procedures to avoid that
in the future?

Feel free to send my that proposal if you want my comments.
Curious to see what you are up to.

> Which train do I take? I hate airplanes.

You could come by bus. Plenty of companies now fly Airbus :-)


Take care,
Ferdinand

Re: Unreleased Coccon Code in Forrest 0.8

[Ferdinand Soethe <fe...@apache.org>]

I asked Jeremias Maerki to point out where we can look up
this rule.

Best regards,
Ferdinand Soethe

Re: Unreleased Coccon Code in Forrest 0.8

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

Ross Gardler wrote:
> Unless I see some documented evidence of this restriction I have no 
> problem with continuing with our me of a 2.2 snapshot. if I see such 
> documentation then I will certainly be questioning the bogie behind it.

Ha Ha!

I'm using a hand writing recognition device. Sometimes I miss errors. In 
the above me = use. But the "bogie" one in funnier uncorrected ;-)

Ross

Re: Unreleased Coccon Code in Forrest 0.8

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

Jeremias Maerki-2 wrote:
> 
> It was me who brought this up. A couple of years ago, I got educated about
> this topic by an Apache Member (unfortunately, I don't remember who that
> was) and from that point on, I didn't allow releases in XML Graphics with
> snapshot JARs. Indeed, I haven't found any hard evidence myself about this
> policy so I brought this up among the ASF membership. The discussion is
> still going on and it's not clear, yet, what the outcome will be. It will
> probably be somewhere between "no problem with snapshots" and "no go with
> snapshots". At the moment, just ignore this and I will update you when I can
> say more. Hopefully, this will result in an update of the release handling
> documentation on www.apache.org/dev. What I can already say is that
> releasing Forrest with snapshot JARs means the Forrest PMC takes
> responsibility for those snapshots and what's in them.

Thanks for your help, mate. Perhaps a few of us can help
to summarise that.

On the members discussion there was reference to
a recent Incubator discussion which is of big help,
especially comments from Leo and Roy.

http://markmail.org/message/frekppfayz3eihf3
"Including snapshot dependencies from other ASF projects"

-David

Re: Unreleased Coccon Code in Forrest 0.8

[Jeremias Maerki-2 <de...@jeremias-maerki.ch>]

It was me who brought this up. A couple of years ago, I got educated about
this topic by an Apache Member (unfortunately, I don't remember who that
was) and from that point on, I didn't allow releases in XML Graphics with
snapshot JARs. Indeed, I haven't found any hard evidence myself about this
policy so I brought this up among the ASF membership. The discussion is
still going on and it's not clear, yet, what the outcome will be. It will
probably be somewhere between "no problem with snapshots" and "no go with
snapshots". At the moment, just ignore this and I will update you when I can
say more. Hopefully, this will result in an update of the release handling
documentation on www.apache.org/dev. What I can already say is that
releasing Forrest with snapshot JARs means the Forrest PMC takes
responsibility for those snapshots and what's in them.


rgardler wrote:
> 
> Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>> On Sat, 2007-12-01 at 10:49 +0100, Ferdinand Soethe wrote:
>>> An Apache colleague looking at Forrest 0.8 just noticed that
>>> we have used unreleased Cocoon Code in our release and told
>>> me that this is not longer permitted.
>> 
>> Can this colleague point out the board note or any other resource that
>> is stating this. It strikes me odd since we are talking about open
>> source whether released or not. Meaning for me I/we can include what we
>> want if it is compatible with our license.
> 
> I agree. This just feels wrong and I do not recall seeing any resolution 
> supporting this view.
> 
> There is nothing (legally speaking) to stop us taking the code from 
> Cocoon SVN, adding it to our own SVN and releasing it as Forrest code. 
> Of course forking Cocoon in this way would be bad from a community point 
> of view. Having a release restriction forcing us to do this would be 
> contrary to the Apache approach to software development.
> 
> Unless I see some documented evidence of this restriction I have no 
> problem with continuing with our me of a 2.2 snapshot. if I see such 
> documentation then I will certainly be questioning the bogie behind it.
> 
> If we need to take any action it is to ensure we make it dear we are 
> using a tested snapshot of Cocoon 2.2 but that this tenting is confined 
> to its are in a standard Forrest install.
> 
> Ross
> 
> Ross
> 
> 

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Re: Unreleased Coccon Code in Forrest 0.8

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> On Sat, 2007-12-01 at 10:49 +0100, Ferdinand Soethe wrote:
>> An Apache colleague looking at Forrest 0.8 just noticed that
>> we have used unreleased Cocoon Code in our release and told
>> me that this is not longer permitted.
> 
> Can this colleague point out the board note or any other resource that
> is stating this. It strikes me odd since we are talking about open
> source whether released or not. Meaning for me I/we can include what we
> want if it is compatible with our license.

I agree. This just feels wrong and I do not recall seeing any resolution 
supporting this view.

There is nothing (legally speaking) to stop us taking the code from 
Cocoon SVN, adding it to our own SVN and releasing it as Forrest code. 
Of course forking Cocoon in this way would be bad from a community point 
of view. Having a release restriction forcing us to do this would be 
contrary to the Apache approach to software development.

Unless I see some documented evidence of this restriction I have no 
problem with continuing with our me of a 2.2 snapshot. if I see such 
documentation then I will certainly be questioning the bogie behind it.

If we need to take any action it is to ensure we make it dear we are 
using a tested snapshot of Cocoon 2.2 but that this tenting is confined 
to its are in a standard Forrest install.

Ross

Ross

Re: Unreleased Coccon Code in Forrest 0.8

[Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>]

On Sat, 2007-12-01 at 10:49 +0100, Ferdinand Soethe wrote:
> An Apache colleague looking at Forrest 0.8 just noticed that
> we have used unreleased Cocoon Code in our release and told
> me that this is not longer permitted.

Can this colleague point out the board note or any other resource that
is stating this. It strikes me odd since we are talking about open
source whether released or not. Meaning for me I/we can include what we
want if it is compatible with our license.

salu2

> 
> Do we need top change our release procedures to avoid that
> in the future?
> 
> Feel free to send my that proposal if you want my comments.
> Curious to see what you are up to.
> 
> > Which train do I take? I hate airplanes.
> 
> You could come by bus. Plenty of companies now fly Airbus :-)
> 
> 
> Take care,
> Ferdinand
> 
-- 
Thorsten Scherler                                 thorsten.at.apache.org
Open Source Java                      consulting, training and solutions

Re: Unreleased Coccon Code in Forrest 0.8

[Ferdinand Soethe <fe...@apache.org>]

Ignore these last two paras. Thunderbird seems to have
highjacked some lines from another draft message. Arg!!

Ferdinand Soethe wrote:

> Feel free to send my that proposal if you want my comments.
> Curious to see what you are up to.
> 
>> Which train do I take? I hate airplanes.
> 
> You could come by bus. Plenty of companies now fly Airbus :-)
> 
> 
> Take care,
> Ferdinand

Re: Unreleased Coccon Code in Forrest 0.8

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

Ferdinand Soethe wrote:
> An Apache colleague looking at Forrest 0.8 just noticed that
> we have used unreleased Cocoon Code in our release and told
> me that this is not longer permitted.

Here is a summary of the situation.

When we needed to have the pass-through sitemap ability,
we started using Cocoon trunk. (Later i think that was
subsequently backported to 2.1 release branch.)
See the forrest-dev threads where we tried to look
at options for moving to the new Cocoon trunk (which
still would not have helped us) or going back to
use their 2.1 release branch. Still neither works for us.
Consequently, we still use an unreleased version
of an old Cocoon-2.2 trunk.

We have a practice of adding commit messages with the
exact SVN revision number from which those jars are built,
so people can trace to the actual Cocoon source.

We don't include the Cocoon sources in the jars.
The Forrest distribution was already very bloated.

At one stage we did use the revision number as part
of the jar filename, but dropped that because it was
getting hard to manage.

This is mentioned in the release notes, e.g.
http://forrest.apache.org/docs_0_80/upgrading_08.html#cocoon

See other old discussion about this topic at
 http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FOR-1017
 "decide on upgrade strategy for Forrest's use of Cocoon"

-David

Re: Unreleased Coccon Code in Forrest 0.8

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

Gav.... wrote:
> Sorry Ferdinand for my late input here,
> 
> From: Ferdinand Soethe
> > 
> > An Apache colleague looking at Forrest 0.8 just noticed that
> > we have used unreleased Cocoon Code in our release and told
> > me that this is not longer permitted.
> 
> Is this 'unreleased code' in a public SVN, in trunk or a branch etc ?

Yes, all ASF code is in SVN.

I will try to provide the background in a
separate email.

> Is the code covered by i/CLAs, in other words was the code written and
> committed and covered by an iCLA. If yes then surely any Apache project is
> covered here.

Yes, as with any ASF code, it is covered by Contributor License
Agreements (CLAs).

> It matters not that it was released or not by Cocoon, that
> only proves that Cocoon PMC endorse it as part of their release. What
> matters is that it is open source code under the Apache 2.0 license and
> that when we released it as part of our official release then the Forrest
> PMC endorsed it.

I reckon that there are more issues. Lets see the outcome
of other discussions.

> Another example, if someone wanted to take some of Forrests code, either
> released or from trunk, as long as they adhere to the Apache 2.0 license,
> surely they can do so?
> 
> I'd like to see where it says 'this is no longer permitted' before I change
> my mind :)

Many ASF principles are not written down anywhere.
We often operate on the basic principles, and commonsense
answers flow from there.

I gather that it is not a matter of "no longer"
but rather that it never was.

> > Do we need top change our release procedures to avoid that
> > in the future?
> 
> No, I don't think we do, sure we can tighten up and make sure we are using
> code under the license correctly, but I see no reason why we can not take
> unreleased code and incorporate it.

The topic is now being discussed on another mailing list.
Some of us will need to try to participate and summarise.

> One last thought came to mind though (which may contradict some of what I
> say above, we'll see) , if Cocoon are not endorsing code that we are using,
> then mentioning the name 'Cocoon' in that code or in the package name may
> imply that Cocoon too endorse that code, we may therefore need to remove any
> Cocoon references and repackage it as a Forrest lib etc or whatever. That
> may end up being harder than it sounds.

Very hard, if not impossible.

-David

RE: Unreleased Coccon Code in Forrest 0.8

["Gav...." <br...@brightontown.com.au>]

Sorry Ferdinand for my late input here,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ferdinand Soethe [mailto:ferdinand@apache.org]
> Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2007 6:50 PM
> To: dev@forrest.apache.org
> Subject: Unreleased Coccon Code in Forrest 0.8
> 
> An Apache colleague looking at Forrest 0.8 just noticed that
> we have used unreleased Cocoon Code in our release and told
> me that this is not longer permitted.

Is this 'unreleased code' in a public SVN, in trunk or a branch etc ?
Is the code covered by i/CLAs, in other words was the code written and
committed and covered by an iCLA. If yes then surely any Apache project is
covered here. It matters not that it was released or not by Cocoon, that
only proves that Cocoon PMC endorse it as part of their release. What
matters is that it is open source code under the Apache 2.0 license and
that when we released it as part of our official release then the Forrest
PMC endorsed it.

Another example, if someone wanted to take some of Forrests code, either
released or from trunk, as long as they adhere to the Apache 2.0 license,
surely they can do so?

I'd like to see where it says 'this is no longer permitted' before I change
my mind :)

> 
> Do we need top change our release procedures to avoid that
> in the future?
> 

No, I don't think we do, sure we can tighten up and make sure we are using
code under the license correctly, but I see no reason why we can not take
unreleased code and incorporate it.

One last thought came to mind though (which may contradict some of what I
say above, we'll see) , if Cocoon are not endorsing code that we are using,
then mentioning the name 'Cocoon' in that code or in the package name may
imply that Cocoon too endorse that code, we may therefore need to remove any
Cocoon references and repackage it as a Forrest lib etc or whatever. That
may end up being harder than it sounds.

Gav...

<snip>
> 
> 
> Take care,
> Ferdinand