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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org> on 2003/11/28 22:25:40 UTC
[VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
The Geronimo folks are talking about making logos and there seems to
be a desire to have official signoff on the name. Please vote on one
of the following choices:
[ ] - Let them keep "Geronimo" as the official name.
[ ] - Punt the decision to members@.
[ ] - Disallow "Geronimo" but allow the committers to come up with any
other name they want (barring anything inappropriate).
-aaron
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Brian W. Fitzpatrick" <fi...@red-bean.com>.
On Nov 28, 2003, at 1:25 PM, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> [ ] - Let them keep "Geronimo" as the official name.
> [ ] - Punt the decision to members@.
> [ +1] - Disallow "Geronimo" but allow the committers to come up with
> any
> other name they want (barring anything inappropriate).
-Fitz
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Fri, 2003-11-28 at 16:25, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> The Geronimo folks are talking about making logos and there seems to
> be a desire to have official signoff on the name. Please vote on one
> of the following choices:
>
>
> [+1] - Let them keep "Geronimo" as the official name.
> [ ] - Punt the decision to members@.
> [ ] - Disallow "Geronimo" but allow the committers to come up with any
> other name they want (barring anything inappropriate).
>
> -aaron
>
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 01:25:40PM -0800, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> [ ] - Let them keep "Geronimo" as the official name.
> [ ] - Punt the decision to members@.
> [X] - Disallow "Geronimo" but allow the committers to come up with any
> other name they want (barring anything inappropriate).
Here's my vote, BTW.
-aaron
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 13:08, Brian. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
> > Geronimo was an Apache was he not? So it definitley seems odd that we
> > can name our whole organization after the people of Geronimo but not
> > Geronimo himself (yes, I know the name came from "a patchy server, but
> > that's not obvious to anyone most of the time).
>
> You're forgetting the etymology of the name "Apache". It came about
> because the original version of httpd was a set of patches to the NCSA
> httpd server. Thus came "A patchy webserver", and consequently
> "Apache".
> This word is already controversial enough... releasing a product named
> "Geronimo" would be the equivalent of pouring jet fuel onto a fire that
> we've managed to dampen to a smolder.
And using an indian feather beside the word Apache is a good way to
dampen this to a smolder?
> Those of you who know me understand that I'm *anything* but politically
> correct... my vote here is based on what I think is best for the ASF,
> not necessarily what I think is best for me.
>
> -Fitz
>
>
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Nov 29, 2003, at 2:20 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
>
> On 29 Nov 2003, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
>> It's not like it's "Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers" or
>> something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
>> people some choice and it uses the name of a native indian hero. So
>> some
>> coke and twinkie consuming, pasty white programmer might actually
>> learn
>> something from looking up Geronimo.
>
> It's also a word that has entered the English language [probably via
> TV?]
> as something you shout while leaping whole-heartedly into something.
>
Unless, of course, you *are* Geronimo, in which case you just yell
"Meeeeeeeeeeee!"
(sorry - couldn't resist)
geir
> Hen
>
>
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>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On 29 Nov 2003, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> It's not like it's "Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers" or
> something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
> people some choice and it uses the name of a native indian hero. So some
> coke and twinkie consuming, pasty white programmer might actually learn
> something from looking up Geronimo.
It's also a word that has entered the English language [probably via TV?]
as something you shout while leaping whole-heartedly into something.
Hen
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Brian. W. Fitzpatrick" <fi...@red-bean.com>.
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 13:11, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 13:47, Brian. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
> > On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 12:36, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> >
> > > So the ASF has actually received messages from Apache indians that are
> > > offended by the use of the name Apache?
> >
> > I don't know... take it up with the board. I do, however, know that
> > using Native American/American Indian names for just about anything is a
> > hotbed of controversy.
> >
> > I'm not going to go tit-for-tat with you about the Apache feather and
> > every other little detail of the ASF brand here--I don't have time for
> > that. I've voted -1 and said my piece here.
>
> How about actually taking some time to find out if it's really offensive
> instead of just guessing?
Look, why won't you just take my word for it when I say "In the United
States of America, using names Native Indian/Native American
> It's not like it's "Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers" or
> something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
> people some choice and it uses the name of a native indian hero. So some
> coke and twinkie consuming, pasty white programmer might actually learn
> something from looking up Geronimo.
>
> > -Fitz
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 07:16:17PM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > It should be left up to the project unless Geronimo is truly deemed
> > inappropriate.
>
> > The developers may wish to avoid the whole issue by renaming the
> > codebase to something else but not be forced out of the name
> > because it's perceived to be controversial by some.
>
> Unless the Membership or the Board decides to take up the matter, I think
> that the project community should have a say it the matter. As I said
> earlier, I am not sure why the thread wasn't initiated on that list.
First of all, the project community has just as much of a say in the
matter as anyone else. Please realize, however, that this topic
(the official name for the "Geronimo" project) has been around for
a long time, longer even than the codebase.
Secondly, let me fill everyone in on what's going on here. The name
"Geronimo" was only intended to be the code-name of the project.
Once the project was created, a number of people pointed out some
reasons why the name "Geronimo" was inappropriate, and so it was
loosely decided that the name would be temporary. In order to
get closure on the issue, so that efforts like making logos and
creating web pages can continue unhindered, I decided to post
this vote to the Incubator PMC:
-----------
From: Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>
Subject: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:25:40 -0800
Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org
The Geronimo folks are talking about making logos and there seems to
be a desire to have official signoff on the name. Please vote on one
of the following choices:
[ ] - Let them keep "Geronimo" as the official name.
[ ] - Punt the decision to members@.
[ ] - Disallow "Geronimo" but allow the committers to come up with any
other name they want (barring anything inappropriate).
-aaron
-----------
Everyone is welcome to join the general@incubator.apache.org mailing
list to discuss this, so please go there to discuss the merits or
the political-correctness of the name. Please refrain from having
that discussion on this list (which is primarily for development work).
Given that the name "Geronimo" is being deemed inappropriate for a
number of reasons, it is likely that a new name will need to be
found. I'm sure that the community here on this list is best equipped
to come up with a new and better name, so start brainstorming now. :)
-aaron (aka aaron@clove.org)
Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>It should be left up to the project unless Geronimo is truly deemed
>>inappropriate.
>>
>>
>>The developers may wish to avoid the whole issue by renaming the
>>codebase to something else but not be forced out of the name
>>because it's perceived to be controversial by some.
>>
>>
>Unless the Membership or the Board decides to take up the matter, I think
>that the project community should have a say it the matter. As I said
>earlier, I am not sure why the thread wasn't initiated on that list.
>
I'll point out that the project community already said lots of things on the
matter. Try searching the archives:
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SearchList?listId=&listName=geronimo-dev%40incubator.apache.org&searchText=name&defaultField=subject&Search=Search
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SearchList?listId=&listName=general%40incubator.apache.org&searchText=name&defaultField=subject&Search=Search
- Leo
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>It should be left up to the project unless Geronimo is truly deemed
>>inappropriate.
>>
>>
>>The developers may wish to avoid the whole issue by renaming the
>>codebase to something else but not be forced out of the name
>>because it's perceived to be controversial by some.
>>
>>
>Unless the Membership or the Board decides to take up the matter, I think
>that the project community should have a say it the matter. As I said
>earlier, I am not sure why the thread wasn't initiated on that list.
>
I'll point out that the project community already said lots of things on the
matter. Try searching the archives:
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SearchList?listId=&listName=geronimo-dev%40incubator.apache.org&searchText=name&defaultField=subject&Search=Search
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SearchList?listId=&listName=general%40incubator.apache.org&searchText=name&defaultField=subject&Search=Search
- Leo
RE: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> It should be left up to the project unless Geronimo is truly deemed
> inappropriate.
> The developers may wish to avoid the whole issue by renaming the
> codebase to something else but not be forced out of the name
> because it's perceived to be controversial by some.
Unless the Membership or the Board decides to take up the matter, I think
that the project community should have a say it the matter. As I said
earlier, I am not sure why the thread wasn't initiated on that list.
--- Noel
ref:
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/BrowseList?listName=general@incubator.apa
che.org&by=thread&from=547799&to=547799&first=1
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RE: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> It should be left up to the project unless Geronimo is truly deemed
> inappropriate.
> The developers may wish to avoid the whole issue by renaming the
> codebase to something else but not be forced out of the name
> because it's perceived to be controversial by some.
Unless the Membership or the Board decides to take up the matter, I think
that the project community should have a say it the matter. As I said
earlier, I am not sure why the thread wasn't initiated on that list.
--- Noel
ref:
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/BrowseList?listName=general@incubator.apa
che.org&by=thread&from=547799&to=547799&first=1
RE: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 17:56, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > All I'm trying to express is that the name is not being used
> > in any derogatory sense and that the name Geronimo is being
> > used in a positive light.
>
> Tell that to the people protesting sports teams using the name "Braves" or
> "Redskins", or anything else having a Native American reference. Tell that
> to the colleges who have changed their mascots under pressure, e.g,
> Dartmouth University and St. John University.
I don't believe the cases are analagous at all. In the case of a mascot
where you have some buffoon parading around a field dressed as a
caricature of an indigenous person to my mind is certainly offensive. I
can certainly see why folks would take issue with that.
> Now you may wish to think that the controversy is foolish or even stupid,
I never labelled anything I was talking about as foolish or stupid. I'm
saying that the use of Geronimo in this case was well intentioned and in
fact an attempt in a small way to honour Geronimo, not denigrate native
Indian American culture.
> as
> did
> http://www.thetowntalk.com/html/6C03C7A6-781C-4F6C-A430-D0EDEF8D9AD6.shtml,
> but those who are protesting don't believe that anyone who cannot trace the
> family tree back at least 18,000 years on this continent gets a vote.
>
It should be left up to the project unless Geronimo is truly deemed
inappropriate. Simply stating it to be inappropriate doesn't make it so
and I don't think anyone has shown that the name Geronimo in the context
it is being used is in fact inappropriate.
The developers may wish to avoid the whole issue by renaming the
codebase to something else but not be forced out of the name because
it's perceived to be controversial by some.
--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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RE: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
> All I'm trying to express is that the name is not being used
> in any derogatory sense and that the name Geronimo is being
> used in a positive light.
Tell that to the people protesting sports teams using the name "Braves" or
"Redskins", or anything else having a Native American reference. Tell that
to the colleges who have changed their mascots under pressure, e.g,
Dartmouth University and St. John University.
Now you may wish to think that the controversy is foolish or even stupid, as
did
http://www.thetowntalk.com/html/6C03C7A6-781C-4F6C-A430-D0EDEF8D9AD6.shtml,
but those who are protesting don't believe that anyone who cannot trace the
family tree back at least 18,000 years on this continent gets a vote.
On a different note, there has been software program called Geronimo:
http://www.apexdatasystems.com/geronimo.html since at least 2002.
My preference would be for a dynamic new name, but we'll see what the
consensus is to the question.
--- Noel
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Dec 1, 2003, at 4:18 PM, Brian McCallister wrote:
> Hmm, how about:
>
> Apache ctx.lookup("apache/j2ee/name");
>
> It's unpronounceable, but so is httpd ;-)
I can pronounce it, but I then have to wipe my screen :D
geir
>
> -Brian
>
> On Monday, December 1, 2003, at 03:42 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 01:18:15AM -0800, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>> On 12/1/03 12:16 AM, "Greg Stein" <gs...@lyra.org> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 07:10:16PM -0500, Rich Bowen wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>> Appropriating the name "Geronimo" for our uses will cause, and has
>>>>> caused, controversy.
>>>>
>>>> I believe the only controversy has been from people who state that
>>>> the
>>>> name will cause controversy. IOW, it is entirely self-generated,
>>>> rather
>>>> than any *actual* problem.
>>>>
>>>> Have we actually seen legitimate complaints? Or just *belief* that
>>>> they
>>>> will occur?
>>>
>>> Could you please enumerate for me what constitutes a legitimate
>>> complaint?
>>
>> Somebody who is actually affected by the name. e.g. in this case, one
>> of
>> Geronimo's heirs or another custodian.
>>
>> I think Sam is right: this is really just a bikeshed. Everybody has
>> their
>> particular color they want, and they feel they can contribute by
>> ensuring
>> their color is selected.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -g
>>
>> --
>> Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Brian McCallister <mc...@forthillcompany.com>.
Hmm, how about:
Apache ctx.lookup("apache/j2ee/name");
It's unpronounceable, but so is httpd ;-)
-Brian
On Monday, December 1, 2003, at 03:42 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 01:18:15AM -0800, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>> On 12/1/03 12:16 AM, "Greg Stein" <gs...@lyra.org> wrote:
>>> On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 07:10:16PM -0500, Rich Bowen wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>> Appropriating the name "Geronimo" for our uses will cause, and has
>>>> caused, controversy.
>>>
>>> I believe the only controversy has been from people who state that
>>> the
>>> name will cause controversy. IOW, it is entirely self-generated,
>>> rather
>>> than any *actual* problem.
>>>
>>> Have we actually seen legitimate complaints? Or just *belief* that
>>> they
>>> will occur?
>>
>> Could you please enumerate for me what constitutes a legitimate
>> complaint?
>
> Somebody who is actually affected by the name. e.g. in this case, one
> of
> Geronimo's heirs or another custodian.
>
> I think Sam is right: this is really just a bikeshed. Everybody has
> their
> particular color they want, and they feel they can contribute by
> ensuring
> their color is selected.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> --
> Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
>
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>
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 01:18:15AM -0800, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> On 12/1/03 12:16 AM, "Greg Stein" <gs...@lyra.org> wrote:
> > On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 07:10:16PM -0500, Rich Bowen wrote:
> >> ...
> >> Appropriating the name "Geronimo" for our uses will cause, and has
> >> caused, controversy.
> >
> > I believe the only controversy has been from people who state that the
> > name will cause controversy. IOW, it is entirely self-generated, rather
> > than any *actual* problem.
> >
> > Have we actually seen legitimate complaints? Or just *belief* that they
> > will occur?
>
> Could you please enumerate for me what constitutes a legitimate complaint?
Somebody who is actually affected by the name. e.g. in this case, one of
Geronimo's heirs or another custodian.
I think Sam is right: this is really just a bikeshed. Everybody has their
particular color they want, and they feel they can contribute by ensuring
their color is selected.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On 12/1/03 12:16 AM, "Greg Stein" <gs...@lyra.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 07:10:16PM -0500, Rich Bowen wrote:
>> ...
>> Appropriating the name "Geronimo" for our uses will cause, and has
>> caused, controversy.
>
> I believe the only controversy has been from people who state that the
> name will cause controversy. IOW, it is entirely self-generated, rather
> than any *actual* problem.
>
> Have we actually seen legitimate complaints? Or just *belief* that they
> will occur?
>
Could you please enumerate for me what constitutes a legitimate complaint?
Thanks,
Andy
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> p.s. +1 on keeping the name
--
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http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
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The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
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everything espoused in the above email.
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 07:10:16PM -0500, Rich Bowen wrote:
>...
> Appropriating the name "Geronimo" for our uses will cause, and has
> caused, controversy.
I believe the only controversy has been from people who state that the
name will cause controversy. IOW, it is entirely self-generated, rather
than any *actual* problem.
Have we actually seen legitimate complaints? Or just *belief* that they
will occur?
Cheers,
-g
p.s. +1 on keeping the name
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On 29 Nov 2003, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> Of course I'm listening and am also asking you to think. It's
> controversial for a reason: most likely it's because some indigenous
> peoples find the use of their names in some contexts to be derogatory or
> offensive. I'm just asking people to think if in this context it could
> even be remotely seen controversial.
Unfortunately, yes. The PC movement that started as a few marginal
loonies has picked up steam and taken our entire culture with it. (Here
"our" refers to the USA, of course. I can't speak for other nations.)
Certain concepts are controversial, regardless of context. Certain words
are offensive when used by the wrong people, regardless of context.
Appropriating the name "Geronimo" for our uses will cause, and has
caused, controversy. I am not easily offended. I an anything but
politically correct. I find political correctness to be the enemy of
intelligent discourse. However, I don't see any value in getting our
organization embroiled in such controversy.
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
There's more than one way to eat a rhesus
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 14:50, Brian. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
> On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 13:41, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 14:31, Brian. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
> >
> > > > It's not like it's "Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers" or
> > > > something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
> > > > people some choice and it uses the name of a native indian hero. So some
> > > > coke and twinkie consuming, pasty white programmer might actually learn
> > > > something from looking up Geronimo.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by your pathetic attempt at
> > > insulting me, but I'm not going to play your flame game, and I'm not
> > > going to attack you back.
> >
> > Attack you? All I'm trying to express is that the name is not being used
> > in any derogatory sense and that the name Geronimo is being used in a
> > positive light. In addition to that people may actually be curious what
> > the name actually means and lookup the word Geronimo and learn
> > something.
>
> So let them look it up. I don't care what the name means.
>
> You keep saying thisngs like "derogatory" and "nasty". I keep saying
> "CONTROVERSIAL". It's CONTROVERSIAL here in the U.S. Are you even
> *listening*?
Of course I'm listening and am also asking you to think. It's
controversial for a reason: most likely it's because some indigenous
peoples find the use of their names in some contexts to be derogatory or
offensive. I'm just asking people to think if in this context it could
even be remotely seen controversial.
--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Brian. W. Fitzpatrick" <fi...@red-bean.com>.
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 13:41, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 14:31, Brian. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
> > > It's not like it's "Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers" or
> > > something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
> > > people some choice and it uses the name of a native indian hero. So some
> > > coke and twinkie consuming, pasty white programmer might actually learn
> > > something from looking up Geronimo.
> >
> > I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by your pathetic attempt at
> > insulting me, but I'm not going to play your flame game, and I'm not
> > going to attack you back.
>
> Attack you? All I'm trying to express is that the name is not being used
> in any derogatory sense and that the name Geronimo is being used in a
> positive light. In addition to that people may actually be curious what
> the name actually means and lookup the word Geronimo and learn
> something.
So let them look it up. I don't care what the name means.
You keep saying thisngs like "derogatory" and "nasty". I keep saying
"CONTROVERSIAL". It's CONTROVERSIAL here in the U.S. Are you even
*listening*?
> I wasn't attacking you but more making fun of programmer
> types, myself certainly included, who are often not well versed in
> history.
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 14:31, Brian. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
> > It's not like it's "Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers" or
> > something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
> > people some choice and it uses the name of a native indian hero. So some
> > coke and twinkie consuming, pasty white programmer might actually learn
> > something from looking up Geronimo.
>
> I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by your pathetic attempt at
> insulting me, but I'm not going to play your flame game, and I'm not
> going to attack you back.
Attack you? All I'm trying to express is that the name is not being used
in any derogatory sense and that the name Geronimo is being used in a
positive light. In addition to that people may actually be curious what
the name actually means and lookup the word Geronimo and learn
something. I wasn't attacking you but more making fun of programmer
types, myself certainly included, who are often not well versed in
history.
> -Fitz
>
>
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Brian. W. Fitzpatrick" <fi...@red-bean.com>.
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 13:11, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 13:47, Brian. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
> > On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 12:36, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> >
> > > So the ASF has actually received messages from Apache indians that are
> > > offended by the use of the name Apache?
> >
> > I don't know... take it up with the board. I do, however, know that
> > using Native American/American Indian names for just about anything is a
> > hotbed of controversy.
> >
> > I'm not going to go tit-for-tat with you about the Apache feather and
> > every other little detail of the ASF brand here--I don't have time for
> > that. I've voted -1 and said my piece here.
>
> How about actually taking some time to find out if it's really offensive
> instead of just guessing?
I'm not just guessing, and I don't recall saying that it's offensive.
It's CONTROVERSIAL in the United States--that's a fact.
> It's not like it's "Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers" or
> something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
> people some choice and it uses the name of a native indian hero. So some
> coke and twinkie consuming, pasty white programmer might actually learn
> something from looking up Geronimo.
I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by your pathetic attempt at
insulting me, but I'm not going to play your flame game, and I'm not
going to attack you back.
-Fitz
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 05:04:52PM +0100, Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
>
> Rich Bowen wrote:
>
> >The fact of the matter is that, in the USA, any mention of any minority
> >(aka non-white) historical figure or group of people, by persons not in
> >that group, is guaranteed to cause someone to be offended.
>
> I must admit that it is totally beyond my understanding how one can waste
> so much thoughts on the *possibility* of offending someone with something,
> that almost anyone would consider an honour, while at the same time
> accepting a *military attack* on foreign countries.
>
> Not that I feel that *you* are thinking this. Talking about the majority of
> people in the US. Just to express how puzzled I am on this discussion, being
> an "old" european.
I don't think anyone said these opinions were held by the majority
of US Americans, not for the topic of political-correctness nor for
preemptive military attacks on foreign nations.
-aaron
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@watson.ibm.com>.
"Brian Behlendorf" <br...@collab.net> writes:
>
> Despite this, I like Geronimo as a name. However, I think it'd be a poor
> choice for two reasons previously noted: other software products already
> using that name, and the *potential* it has to cause quite a bit of
> trouble. It's really not that hard to come up with new names.
If other software products already have this name then IMO its
poor form for us to hijack it. Given Apache's brand value its probably
possible, but that doesn't mean its right.
+1 for changing it.
Sanjiva.
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RE: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Brian Behlendorf <br...@collab.net>.
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Personally, I view Political Correctness as being closer to Orwellian
> thought control than a sincere attempt to instill appreciation for, and
> tolerance of, diversity.
And I think "Political Correctness" is a term invented by the right to
pretend that they shouldn't have to care about the history and legacy of
others in the world, that their own ignorance is a virtue rather than a
vice. But you can't entirely blame them - racism and cultural
abrasiveness is often not easy to spot or be aware of. Watch any film
from the 50's or earlier and notice how women and people of color are
depicted; the cues can be subtle but, in retrospect, pretty harmful.
Here's one way to think of it. We have a certain set of principles that
bind Apache developers together - transparancy, consensus,
non-affiliation, respect for fellow developers, and meritocracy, among
others. Someone new to Apache or the concept of Open Source, and who
doesn't grok those principles off the bat, is likely to interpret our
feedback to them along these lines as Political Correctness - that it's
not PC to flame someone to shreds, not PC to make code decisions on IRC,
not PC to demand someone else to fix your bugs.
There's no doubt it gets abused - and having lived in Berkeley, boy do you
see it get abused. But in this case, there's every reason in the world to
be concerned about what we do with Native American history and mythology.
Despite this, I like Geronimo as a name. However, I think it'd be a poor
choice for two reasons previously noted: other software products already
using that name, and the *potential* it has to cause quite a bit of
trouble. It's really not that hard to come up with new names.
Brian
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RE: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> I must admit that it is totally beyond my understanding how one
> can waste so much thoughts on the *possibility* of offending
> someone with something
Welcome to the wonderful world of Political Correctness. There are plenty
of cases of political correctness that are the antithesis of logical. That
said, there need not be logic in human affairs.
> Just to express how puzzled I am on this discussion, being an "old"
european.
Here is a primer:
http://www-personal.umd.umich.edu/~nhughes/htmldocs/pc.html
Have fun figuring out it the author is serious, or tongue-in-cheek.
If you want a more academic treatment, try Valerie Scatamburlo's book,
"Soldiers of Misfortune: The New Right's Culture War and the Politics of
Political Correctness"
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0820430129/qid=1070211105/sr=
8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-6925476-5495012?v=glance&n=507846).
Personally, I view Political Correctness as being closer to Orwellian
thought control than a sincere attempt to instill appreciation for, and
tolerance of, diversity.
--- Noel
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@ispsoft.de>.
Rich Bowen wrote:
> The fact of the matter is that, in the USA, any mention of any minority
> (aka non-white) historical figure or group of people, by persons not in
> that group, is guaranteed to cause someone to be offended.
I must admit that it is totally beyond my understanding how one can waste so
much thoughts on the *possibility* of offending someone with something, that
almost anyone would consider an honour, while at the same time accepting a
*military attack* on foreign countries.
Not that I feel that *you* are thinking this. Talking about the majority of
people in the US. Just to express how puzzled I am on this discussion, being
an "old" european.
Jochen
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 18:45, Rich Bowen wrote:
> On 29 Nov 2003, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
> > It's not like it's "Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers" or
> > something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
> > people some choice and it uses the name of a native indian hero. So some
> > coke and twinkie consuming, pasty white programmer might actually learn
> > something from looking up Geronimo.
>
> Do you really feel that this type of unwarranted attack in any way
> benefits the discussion? Please try to keep the discussion at a
> professional level, and on topic, rather than resorting to personal
> attacks. Thanks.
I wasn't personally attacking anyone and was in fact more a description
of myself who just looked up who Geronimo was today.
> The fact of the matter is that, in the USA, any mention of any minority
> (aka non-white) historical figure or group of people, by persons not in
> that group, is guaranteed to cause someone to be offended. Being
> offended is kinda like a national pasttime. And while this irritates
> most right-thinking people, that in no way stops it from happening. Any
> attempt to prove this wrong via logic is obviously going at it from the
> wrong angle, because this culture of umbrage is in no way based on
> logic.
Then we are to succumb to accept an irrational POV because it's too much
work to defend the position that we intend an positive usage of the
name. To me it seems that a positive use of the name would allow another
avenue of propagation of native American history. Just seems that the
arbitrary restriction of usage doesn't do anyone any good. To me it
seems to nullify their existence. I'm Irish people aren't thrilled to
see a Leprechaun on a box of Lucky Charms but in a way (not the best I
admit) it's use their may cause someone to ask a question about
Leprechauns. I just think partioning the use of words and icons from a
particular culture to be used only by that culture destroy natural
channels in which information is passed on.
What if everyone does what we might choose to do here and not use a
particular word from a culture because we think it might offend some
people. No chance for serendipity to take hold where someone might catch
a fascination for native American culture. That we "nope, too much
trouble" instead of saying we think Geronimo was a stand up guy, did
some cool things and we think it's good to name the project after him.
> Yes, the name "Apache" offends people, but it's too late to change. It
> is not, however, too late to avoid offending other people. And while
> it is, of course, impossible to avoid offending everyone (you'd be
> amazed at the things that people get offended about) it is possible to
> avoid the most obviously hot-button ones.
I suppose so, no one wants to be embroiled in arguments with overly
senstive. It just seems like a bad idea to me to restrict the use of an
icon when it could lead to something good.
> Yes, Geronimo was a hero. Yes, naming the project after him does him
> honor. However, not everyone will see it that way. Frankly, not being
> Native Americans, we're not entitled to have an opinion about whether
> it's offensive. And I expect that they might not want us appropriating
> their heroes for our own uses.
>
> So, for the record, I'm saying that we should avoid using the name.
Maybe no one wants to fight for the use of the name, I just think it's
sad that Geronimo might not be used as a name because it's
controversial.
--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, Rich Bowen wrote:
> On 29 Nov 2003, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
> > It's not like it's "Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers" or
> > something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
> > people some choice and it uses the name of a native indian hero. So some
> > coke and twinkie consuming, pasty white programmer might actually learn
> > something from looking up Geronimo.
>
> Do you really feel that this type of unwarranted attack in any way
> benefits the discussion? Please try to keep the discussion at a
> professional level, and on topic, rather than resorting to personal
> attacks. Thanks.
I'm sorry. Based on your later comments, I see that my counter-attack
was also unwarranted. Please consider these remarks withdrawn.
- --
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
Author - Apache Server Unleashed - http://www.apacheunleashed.com/
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On 29 Nov 2003, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> It's not like it's "Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers" or
> something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
> people some choice and it uses the name of a native indian hero. So some
> coke and twinkie consuming, pasty white programmer might actually learn
> something from looking up Geronimo.
Do you really feel that this type of unwarranted attack in any way
benefits the discussion? Please try to keep the discussion at a
professional level, and on topic, rather than resorting to personal
attacks. Thanks.
The fact of the matter is that, in the USA, any mention of any minority
(aka non-white) historical figure or group of people, by persons not in
that group, is guaranteed to cause someone to be offended. Being
offended is kinda like a national pasttime. And while this irritates
most right-thinking people, that in no way stops it from happening. Any
attempt to prove this wrong via logic is obviously going at it from the
wrong angle, because this culture of umbrage is in no way based on
logic.
Yes, the name "Apache" offends people, but it's too late to change. It
is not, however, too late to avoid offending other people. And while
it is, of course, impossible to avoid offending everyone (you'd be
amazed at the things that people get offended about) it is possible to
avoid the most obviously hot-button ones.
Yes, Geronimo was a hero. Yes, naming the project after him does him
honor. However, not everyone will see it that way. Frankly, not being
Native Americans, we're not entitled to have an opinion about whether
it's offensive. And I expect that they might not want us appropriating
their heroes for our own uses.
So, for the record, I'm saying that we should avoid using the name.
--
And everyone said, "If we only live,
We too will go to sea in a Sieve -
To the hills of the Chankly Bore!"
(The Jumblies, by Edward Lear)
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 13:47, Brian. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
> On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 12:36, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
> > So the ASF has actually received messages from Apache indians that are
> > offended by the use of the name Apache?
>
> I don't know... take it up with the board. I do, however, know that
> using Native American/American Indian names for just about anything is a
> hotbed of controversy.
>
> I'm not going to go tit-for-tat with you about the Apache feather and
> every other little detail of the ASF brand here--I don't have time for
> that. I've voted -1 and said my piece here.
How about actually taking some time to find out if it's really offensive
instead of just guessing?
It's not like it's "Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers" or
something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
people some choice and it uses the name of a native indian hero. So some
coke and twinkie consuming, pasty white programmer might actually learn
something from looking up Geronimo.
> -Fitz
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
> I honestly didn't think the use of the name in this context was an
> abuse.
I don't think it is abuse -- he is a historical figure and he died
over 100 years ago, so there is no real fear of being sued for it.
I just think it is wrong.
....Roy
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 18:35, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> Apache was named after the Apache tribes -- "a patchy" server was an
> afterthought. We've generally avoided any discussion of the topic
> because involvement of a native american "activist" will only result
> in trouble for us. Those people are not Apache -- they don't even have
> a clue. The various tribes that are called Apache (by their enemies)
> have more specific names for themselves. Thus, we don't have any
> complaints from the Apache people (only from white folks who think
> they know better).
>
> However, Geronimo is a real person. He has descendants -- relatives
> who are very much concerned about abuse of his name. Moreover, I think
> it is unethical to use such a name without permission
If there have been complaints from decendants that have asked that the
name strictly not be used for anything then I would agree it shouldn't
be used. I missed your first note on the subject.
I honestly didn't think the use of the name in this context was an
abuse.
--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
Apache was named after the Apache tribes -- "a patchy" server was an
afterthought. We've generally avoided any discussion of the topic
because involvement of a native american "activist" will only result
in trouble for us. Those people are not Apache -- they don't even have
a clue. The various tribes that are called Apache (by their enemies)
have more specific names for themselves. Thus, we don't have any
complaints from the Apache people (only from white folks who think
they know better).
However, Geronimo is a real person. He has descendants -- relatives
who are very much concerned about abuse of his name. Moreover, I think
it is unethical to use such a name without permission, and I said so
when the Geronimo name was first suggested. We have already received
more complaints specifically about the Geronimo name than we ever have
for using Apache, and it hasn't even been released yet.
To a certain extent, we can defend ourselves by how respectfully we use
these names. However, I'd rather just use a name that is more
suggestive
of technology rather than history.
....Roy
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Brian. W. Fitzpatrick" <fi...@red-bean.com>.
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 12:36, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> So the ASF has actually received messages from Apache indians that are
> offended by the use of the name Apache?
I don't know... take it up with the board. I do, however, know that
using Native American/American Indian names for just about anything is a
hotbed of controversy.
I'm not going to go tit-for-tat with you about the Apache feather and
every other little detail of the ASF brand here--I don't have time for
that. I've voted -1 and said my piece here.
-Fitz
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 13:08, Brian. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
> On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 11:55, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 12:31, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> > > "Sander Striker" <st...@apache.org> writes:
> > > >
> > > > And to clarify: Native American Indian tribe names are inappropiate.
> > >
> > > Given the name "Apache" .. this is an inconsistent statement. Is this
> > > (a new) political correctness thing or some policy?
> >
> > Bingo.
> >
> > > I'm obviously not native American, but if I were I'd personally be
> > > happy to have a major project like Apache Geronimo be named after him.
> > > In fact, it feels rather apropos given the David vs. Goliath scenarios
> > > involved!
> >
> > Geronimo was an Apache was he not? So it definitley seems odd that we
> > can name our whole organization after the people of Geronimo but not
> > Geronimo himself (yes, I know the name came from "a patchy server, but
> > that's not obvious to anyone most of the time).
>
> You're forgetting the etymology of the name "Apache". It came about
> because the original version of httpd was a set of patches to the NCSA
> httpd server. Thus came "A patchy webserver", and consequently
> "Apache".
>
> This word is already controversial enough... releasing a product named
> "Geronimo" would be the equivalent of pouring jet fuel onto a fire that
> we've managed to dampen to a smolder.
>
> Those of you who know me understand that I'm *anything* but politically
> correct... my vote here is based on what I think is best for the ASF,
> not necessarily what I think is best for me.
So the ASF has actually received messages from Apache indians that are
offended by the use of the name Apache?
I wasn't aware of fire quenching being done because of the use of the
name Apache.
> -Fitz
>
>
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jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Brian. W. Fitzpatrick" <fi...@red-bean.com>.
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 11:55, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 12:31, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> > "Sander Striker" <st...@apache.org> writes:
> > >
> > > And to clarify: Native American Indian tribe names are inappropiate.
> >
> > Given the name "Apache" .. this is an inconsistent statement. Is this
> > (a new) political correctness thing or some policy?
>
> Bingo.
>
> > I'm obviously not native American, but if I were I'd personally be
> > happy to have a major project like Apache Geronimo be named after him.
> > In fact, it feels rather apropos given the David vs. Goliath scenarios
> > involved!
>
> Geronimo was an Apache was he not? So it definitley seems odd that we
> can name our whole organization after the people of Geronimo but not
> Geronimo himself (yes, I know the name came from "a patchy server, but
> that's not obvious to anyone most of the time).
You're forgetting the etymology of the name "Apache". It came about
because the original version of httpd was a set of patches to the NCSA
httpd server. Thus came "A patchy webserver", and consequently
"Apache".
This word is already controversial enough... releasing a product named
"Geronimo" would be the equivalent of pouring jet fuel onto a fire that
we've managed to dampen to a smolder.
Those of you who know me understand that I'm *anything* but politically
correct... my vote here is based on what I think is best for the ASF,
not necessarily what I think is best for me.
-Fitz
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On 29 Nov 2003, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> Geronimo was an Apache was he not? So it definitley seems odd that we
> can name our whole organization after the people of Geronimo but not
> Geronimo himself (yes, I know the name came from "a patchy server, but
> that's not obvious to anyone most of the time).
For the record, Geronimo was indeed Apache, and was one of the greatest
heroes, in my opinion, of that time, although the US government of the
period certainly didn't share this opinion. This man, essentially
single-handedly, cost the US government hundreds of thousands of dollars
(1911 dollars, at that) to track him down. His few thousand men
outsmarted the tens of thousands of US soldiers and Mexican soldiers
that tracked him for 9 or 10 years. That's pretty impressive. Other
folks worth reading about are Juh and the so-called Apache Kid.
I'm currently reading "Chasing Shadows", by Shelley Bowen Hatfield (no
relation ;-) which is about this time period. Fascinating stuff.
Online information about these folks is sparse, and often innaccurate.
Oh, and strangely enough, another great source of accurate information
is "Fort Apache", starring John Wayne.
</history lesson>
--
Rich Bowen - Rbowen@RCBowen.com
Apache Cookbook - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/apacheckbk/
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 12:31, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> "Sander Striker" <st...@apache.org> writes:
> >
> > And to clarify: Native American Indian tribe names are inappropiate.
>
> Given the name "Apache" .. this is an inconsistent statement. Is this
> (a new) political correctness thing or some policy?
Bingo.
> I'm obviously not native American, but if I were I'd personally be
> happy to have a major project like Apache Geronimo be named after him.
> In fact, it feels rather apropos given the David vs. Goliath scenarios
> involved!
Geronimo was an Apache was he not? So it definitley seems odd that we
can name our whole organization after the people of Geronimo but not
Geronimo himself (yes, I know the name came from "a patchy server, but
that's not obvious to anyone most of the time).
> Sanjiva.
>
>
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jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
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and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@watson.ibm.com>.
"Sander Striker" <st...@apache.org> writes:
>
> And to clarify: Native American Indian tribe names are inappropiate.
Given the name "Apache" .. this is an inconsistent statement. Is this
(a new) political correctness thing or some policy?
I'm obviously not native American, but if I were I'd personally be
happy to have a major project like Apache Geronimo be named after him.
In fact, it feels rather apropos given the David vs. Goliath scenarios
involved!
Sanjiva.
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 2003-11-28 at 22:25, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> The Geronimo folks are talking about making logos and there seems to
> be a desire to have official signoff on the name. Please vote on one
> of the following choices:
>
>
> [ ] - Let them keep "Geronimo" as the official name.
> [ ] - Punt the decision to members@.
> [X] - Disallow "Geronimo" but allow the committers to come up with any
> other name they want (barring anything inappropriate).
And to clarify: Native American Indian tribe names are inappropiate.
Sander
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RE: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Roy T. Fielding [mailto:fielding@gbiv.com]
> > Roy made a comment that a condition for leaving the incubator is that
> > the name be changed. I hadn't heard that before
> I said that the condition was that it would be reconsidered
Sorry to misunderstand. Thanks for the clarification.
--- Noel
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
> Roy made a comment that a condition for leaving the incubator is that
> the
> name be changed. I hadn't heard that before, but those are two
> incompatible
> views.
I said that the condition was that it would be reconsidered; basically,
that any comments to the effect that it is now "too late" or the name is
vested with too much press must be set aside -- eventually, either the
PMC or the members or the board (or perhaps all three) will vote on the
name and if any one of those mandates a change, the change will be put
in place whether the developers like it or not. That is the condition
they were willing to accept, and I will hold them to it.
....Roy
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RE: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> 1) The incubator PMC is acquiring new PMC members, and will
> asymptotically aproach the list of all ASF committers who
> are involved in any way with any aspect of growth or
> regeneration of code bases. In short, it will become the
> epitame of an uber umbrella PMC.
As you are aware, we are discussing a reorganization of the PMC that will
change its structure to be tightly related to each project.
> IMHO, the right answer is *not* to buck this up to the incubator PMC, or
> to members, or *gasp* to the board. A much better approach would be:
> 1) Have the incubator PMC identify a clear set of constraints that apply
> to *all* names. Vote on them, document them, and move on.
There is one, which has been documented from the beginning. There must be a
trademark search to ensure that the name is available. As far as I can
tell, that mandated activity never happened.
I know that a search was done of the US PTO, but as I noted at the time, not
all trademarks are registered. I've posted references to multiple software
projects with a prior claim on the name, but the fact that there are
multiple, and they haven't pursued each other might make it harder for them
to complain about this one. IANAL, but I'm not sure, if Geronimo is even
trademarkable for software.
Sally makes a point that the Geronimo name has stuck, and should be kept.
Roy made a comment that a condition for leaving the incubator is that the
name be changed. I hadn't heard that before, but those are two incompatible
views.
> Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
> accountable for their decision.
When we complete what I hope will be the Incubator's reorganization, and we
have a Geronimo PPMC, I'm sure that will happen.
--- Noel
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Dec 1, 2003, at 12:53 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>
> In any event, I would table this to be resolved by the Geronimo
> what-ever-we-call-this-thing-currently-labelled-PPMC.
Yikes. We don't have enough bicyles for this.
Can we just call it the PPMC, until we decide to change the ASF bylaws
and remove "PMC" from the lexicon?
Or, does anyone mind if I resubmit the proposal/vote and add a subvote
for what we will call it so we can get this out of the way and get
$NAME_THINGY on it's way for the-project-that-might-be-called-Geronimo
and others in incubation?
geir
P.S. Hey! I have an idea! instead of renaming the Geronimo project,
why don't we make up a symbol that will mean "The Project Formerly
Known as Geronimo"
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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RE: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
>>> 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
>>> accountable for their decision.
> > We are not deciding on the name but on the need or not to have a name
> > change. In case for a name change, this will surely be the case.
> At which point, they will be autonomous until the Incubator PMC decides
> that the new name offends somebody.
That should not happen, because the "PPMC" (or whatever name it goes by)
will BE the Incubator PMC, along with the other relevant parties. That is
the whole point of the restructuring of "umbrella" PMCs.
> I would very much prefer that this be turned around. Instead of the
> incubator PMC voting on and taking responsibility for rejecting the
> name Geronimo, establish a PPMC and have the concerned individuals
> make their case to the people who are empowered to make that decision.
That is my proposal, as well, although it may come out differently because
it may be that I see the "PPMC" differently than you do.
In any event, I would table this to be resolved by the Geronimo
what-ever-we-call-this-thing-currently-labelled-PPMC.
--- Noel
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On Dec 3, 2003, at 7:37 AM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
> Ted Leung wrote:
>> Xerces is a butterfly. It is not a misspelling of Xerxes (the person)
>
> According to http://www.xerces.org/Xerces.htm
>
> "The French entomologist Boisduval named the butterfly for King
> Xerxes, but retained the French spelling, Xerces."
>
> [ runs quickly away to put another coat of paint on the bikeshed ]
LOL (sorry for that)
I was thinking I was just reading a longish mailing list thread - but
this is becoming a Go game, actually. A pity there's only two colors in
that.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On 12/2/03 10:37 PM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
> Ted Leung wrote:
>
>> On 12/1/03 10:00 AM, David Jencks wrote:
>>
>>> Not to mention Xerces (definitely a person) and Alexandria (city in
>>> Egypt), Merlin (religious and possibly a person's name), Pluto
>>> (religious and possibly a geographical place, depending on whether
>>> you think planets have geography), and possibly Avalon (possibly a
>>> geographical name for the British Isles AFAIK)
>>
>>
>>
>> Xerces is a butterfly. It is not a misspelling of Xerxes (the person)
>>
>
> According to http://www.xerces.org/Xerces.htm
>
> "The French entomologist Boisduval named the butterfly for King
> Xerxes, but retained the French spelling, Xerces."
>
> [ runs quickly away to put another coat of paint on the bikeshed ]
>
Just goes to show that you can learn some thing new everyday. But when
we named Xerces we weren't thinking of the person, we were definitely
thinking of the butterfly.
--
Ted Leung Blog: http://www.sauria.com/blog
PGP Fingerprint: 1003 7870 251F FA71 A59A CEE3 BEBA 2B87 F5FC 4B42
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <je...@coredevelopers.net>.
Ted Leung wrote:
> On 12/1/03 10:00 AM, David Jencks wrote:
>
>> Not to mention Xerces (definitely a person) and Alexandria (city in
>> Egypt), Merlin (religious and possibly a person's name), Pluto
>> (religious and possibly a geographical place, depending on whether you
>> think planets have geography), and possibly Avalon (possibly a
>> geographical name for the British Isles AFAIK)
>
>
> Xerces is a butterfly. It is not a misspelling of Xerxes (the person)
>
According to http://www.xerces.org/Xerces.htm
"The French entomologist Boisduval named the butterfly for King Xerxes,
but retained the French spelling, Xerces."
[ runs quickly away to put another coat of paint on the bikeshed ]
--
Jeremy
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On 12/1/03 10:00 AM, David Jencks wrote:
> Not to mention Xerces (definitely a person) and Alexandria (city in
> Egypt), Merlin (religious and possibly a person's name), Pluto
> (religious and possibly a geographical place, depending on whether you
> think planets have geography), and possibly Avalon (possibly a
> geographical name for the British Isles AFAIK)
Xerces is a butterfly. It is not a misspelling of Xerxes (the person)
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by David Jencks <da...@coredevelopers.net>.
On Monday, December 1, 2003, at 08:06 AM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> <snip>
>> Then we have to prevent such discussions in the future by setting
>> clearer rules. Ideas?
>> Possible addition:
>> "The name should not be a name of a person, geographical entity, of
>> religious nature or generally insulting. Since the definition of
>> 'insulting' can vary from place to place, please post the name on the
>> lists for some time so that others can say if it has problems in some
>> ciltures."
>
> By these guidelines, Jakarta should be renamed.
Not to mention Xerces (definitely a person) and Alexandria (city in
Egypt), Merlin (religious and possibly a person's name), Pluto
(religious and possibly a geographical place, depending on whether you
think planets have geography), and possibly Avalon (possibly a
geographical name for the British Isles AFAIK)
>
/**********************************
* David Jencks
* Partner
* Core Developers Network
* http://www.coredevelopers.net
**********************************/
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"Geronimo" Project; was Official Name
Posted by Vic Cekvenich <ce...@basebeans.com>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> Put in tangible terms, I would much prefer to see a incubator puruse a
> vote of [no] confidence in the Geronimo PPC than to have the incubator
> continue to debate the name of the project.
>
That would clear up a lot.
+1 from a non-voter.
.V
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 07:28:09AM +0100, Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
> Aaron Bannert wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 12:04:46PM -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:
> >> Put in tangible terms, I would much prefer to see a incubator puruse a
> >> vote of [no] confidence in the Geronimo PPC than to have the incubator
> >> continue to debate the name of the project.
> > Calling this a bikeshed is hypocritical. If you don't care about
> > the discussion, then don't participate.
>
> The thread did not start as a discussion but as an explicit call for votes.
>
> Have a look at the subject. There is a "[VOTE]" in it. The first mail said:
> "Please vote on one
> of the following choices". Aaron Bannert should remember that. He wrote the
> very first mail.
>
> So the topic obviously has already changed. Sam Ruby legitimately suggested
> that it changes again.
I shouldn't have said it was hypocritical, that was rude of me. I was
upset with what I perceived to be a tone that discouraged others from
voicing their opinions.
-aaron
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
Aaron Bannert wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 12:04:46PM -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:
>> Put in tangible terms, I would much prefer to see a incubator puruse a
>> vote of [no] confidence in the Geronimo PPC than to have the incubator
>> continue to debate the name of the project.
> Calling this a bikeshed is hypocritical. If you don't care about
> the discussion, then don't participate.
The thread did not start as a discussion but as an explicit call for votes.
Have a look at the subject. There is a "[VOTE]" in it. The first mail said:
"Please vote on one
of the following choices". Aaron Bannert should remember that. He wrote the
very first mail.
So the topic obviously has already changed. Sam Ruby legitimately suggested
that it changes again.
Cheers,
Andreas
BTW: Before seeing this thread I did not know what a "bikeshed" is. Now I
know.
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 12:04:46PM -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Put in tangible terms, I would much prefer to see a incubator puruse a
> vote of [no] confidence in the Geronimo PPC than to have the incubator
> continue to debate the name of the project.
There is no Geronimo PMC.
The mere fact that the project is still in Incubation means that
we aren't confident yet in the project's ability to survive on its own.
The only reason this vote came up was because I didn't want people
to spend their great efforts making cool logos and working on all this
stuff around the name "Geronimo" when at the end of it all we'd decide
they couldn't keep the name.
Calling this a bikeshed is hypocritical. If you don't care about
the discussion, then don't participate. Please don't discourage
those of us who care about the work that is going on in incubated
projects from doing what we think is right. I think what's right
is getting a final signoff on the name, or letting them pick a new
name, and getting on with life.
-aaron
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>I very much like the government model that the ASF board operates on.
>>It does not meddle in PMC decisions. If the board does not like the way
>>some project is operating - it typically has only one rather blunt
>>instrument to use: disband the PMC. This has the nice side benefit as
>>it encourages the use of diplomacy over force as typically the only way
>>a vote to disband a PMC would pass is if it presented a clear and
>>present danger to the ASF.
>
> So has the board ever been pleased with the way the incubator is running
> things?
>
> You're on the board Sam, are you still pleased with your decision to support
> the incubator?
Does what I envisioned and what I voted for exactly match what I see
executing in practice? No. That's not surprising, as very few of us
can predict the future with unerring accuracy.
Does the incubator PMC present a clear and present danger to the ASF. No.
What I envisioned was more of a central clearing house for legal
pedigree of donations, coupled with a set of eager ambassadors to go out
and observe and participate in fledgling projects in situo. Those are
goals I still very much believe in. And the PPMC proposal goes a long
way towards addressing this.
Put in tangible terms, I would much prefer to see a incubator puruse a
vote of [no] confidence in the Geronimo PPC than to have the incubator
continue to debate the name of the project.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> I very much like the government model that the ASF board operates on.
> It does not meddle in PMC decisions. If the board does not like the way
> some project is operating - it typically has only one rather blunt
> instrument to use: disband the PMC. This has the nice side benefit as
> it encourages the use of diplomacy over force as typically the only way
> a vote to disband a PMC would pass is if it presented a clear and
> present danger to the ASF.
>
So has the board ever been pleased with the way the incubator is running
things?
You're on the board Sam, are you still pleased with your decision to support
the incubator?
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
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--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Sam Ruby wrote:
> ...
>
>> 1) Have the incubator PMC identify a clear set of constraints that
>> apply to *all* names. Vote on them, document them, and move on.
>
>
> Right. What is our policy?
>
> ATM here is our rule:
> "
> Make sure that the requested project name does not already exist and
> check www.nameprotect.com to be sure that the name is not already
> trademarked for an existing software product.
> "
>
> A search there shows up this that is mildly related to us: "Advertising
> and Business" -> seems ok
>
> This said, it's evident to me that this is not enough.
Why? It seems OK to me.
> The only fact that we are discussing such a trivial issue so much is a
> *strong* indication that the name must change, or that at least the PPMC
> must decide on this in full autonomy.
Either that, or it is a classic bikeshed:
http://www.unixguide.net/freebsd/faq/16.19.shtml
> Then we have to prevent such discussions in the future by setting
> clearer rules. Ideas?
>
> Possible addition:
>
> "The name should not be a name of a person, geographical entity, of
> religious nature or generally insulting. Since the definition of
> 'insulting' can vary from place to place, please post the name on the
> lists for some time so that others can say if it has problems in some
> ciltures."
By these guidelines, Jakarta should be renamed.
>> 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
>> accountable for their decision.
>
> We are not deciding on the name but on the need or not to have a name
> change. In case for a name change, this will surely be the case.
At which point, they will be autonomous until the Incubator PMC decides
that the new name offends somebody.
I would very much prefer that this be turned around. Instead of the
incubator PMC voting on and taking responsibility for rejecting the name
Geronimo, establish a PPMC and have the concerned individuals make their
case to the people who are empowered to make that decision.
I very much like the government model that the ASF board operates on.
It does not meddle in PMC decisions. If the board does not like the way
some project is operating - it typically has only one rather blunt
instrument to use: disband the PMC. This has the nice side benefit as
it encourages the use of diplomacy over force as typically the only way
a vote to disband a PMC would pass is if it presented a clear and
present danger to the ASF.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
...
> 1) Have the incubator PMC identify a clear set of constraints that apply
> to *all* names. Vote on them, document them, and move on.
Right. What is our policy?
ATM here is our rule:
"
Make sure that the requested project name does not already exist and
check www.nameprotect.com to be sure that the name is not already
trademarked for an existing software product.
"
A search there shows up this that is mildly related to us: "Advertising
and Business" -> seems ok
This said, it's evident to me that this is not enough.
The only fact that we are discussing such a trivial issue so much is a
*strong* indication that the name must change, or that at least the PPMC
must decide on this in full autonomy.
Then we have to prevent such discussions in the future by setting
clearer rules. Ideas?
Possible addition:
"The name should not be a name of a person, geographical entity, of
religious nature or generally insulting. Since the definition of
'insulting' can vary from place to place, please post the name on the
lists for some time so that others can say if it has problems in some
ciltures."
> 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
> accountable for their decision.
We are not deciding on the name but on the need or not to have a name
change. In case for a name change, this will surely be the case.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Sander Striker wrote:
> On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 09:29, Bruce Snyder wrote:
>
>>This one time, at band camp, Berin Lautenbach said:
>>
>>BL>> 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
>>BL>> accountable for their decision.
>>BL>
>>BL>+1. I think the Incubator PMC is in a kind of unique position. We are
>>BL>trying to ensure that new projects/new committers in new projects are
>>BL>working in "The Apache Way". So for me, the Incubator PMC shouldn't
>>BL>actually be voting to make the decision for the incubating project. It
>>BL>should simply be checking that the decision has been made appropriately.
>>BL> If anyone in the PMC vetoes a PPMC decision it should be on the basis
>>BL>that the decision does not meet the ASF requirements, not on the basis
>>BL>that we do/don't like a name (for example).
>>BL>
>>BL>Anything else takes the decision away from the project in inubation, and
>>BL>I'm not sure I see how that is fostering the Apache way.
>>
>>IMO, Berin's comments are exactly what I was thinking.
>
> Do note that there were votes from the members, not neccessarily (only)
> from the Incubator PMC.
IMHO, the notion of fostering "The Apache Way" vs. making decisions for
others applies to members too.
> Sander
>
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 09:29, Bruce Snyder wrote:
> This one time, at band camp, Berin Lautenbach said:
>
> BL>> 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
> BL>> accountable for their decision.
> BL>
> BL>+1. I think the Incubator PMC is in a kind of unique position. We are
> BL>trying to ensure that new projects/new committers in new projects are
> BL>working in "The Apache Way". So for me, the Incubator PMC shouldn't
> BL>actually be voting to make the decision for the incubating project. It
> BL>should simply be checking that the decision has been made appropriately.
> BL> If anyone in the PMC vetoes a PPMC decision it should be on the basis
> BL>that the decision does not meet the ASF requirements, not on the basis
> BL>that we do/don't like a name (for example).
> BL>
> BL>Anything else takes the decision away from the project in inubation, and
> BL>I'm not sure I see how that is fostering the Apache way.
>
> IMO, Berin's comments are exactly what I was thinking.
Do note that there were votes from the members, not neccessarily (only)
from the Incubator PMC.
Sander
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Bruce Snyder <fe...@frii.com>.
This one time, at band camp, Berin Lautenbach said:
BL>> 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
BL>> accountable for their decision.
BL>
BL>+1. I think the Incubator PMC is in a kind of unique position. We are
BL>trying to ensure that new projects/new committers in new projects are
BL>working in "The Apache Way". So for me, the Incubator PMC shouldn't
BL>actually be voting to make the decision for the incubating project. It
BL>should simply be checking that the decision has been made appropriately.
BL> If anyone in the PMC vetoes a PPMC decision it should be on the basis
BL>that the decision does not meet the ASF requirements, not on the basis
BL>that we do/don't like a name (for example).
BL>
BL>Anything else takes the decision away from the project in inubation, and
BL>I'm not sure I see how that is fostering the Apache way.
IMO, Berin's comments are exactly what I was thinking.
Bruce
--
perl -e 'print unpack("u30","<0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F9E<G)E=\$\!F<FEI+F-O;0\`\`");'
The Castor Project
http://www.castor.org/
Apache Geronimo
http://incubator.apache.org/projects/geronimo.html
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Berin Lautenbach <be...@ozemail.com.au>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
> The inevitable result of these two factors is an interminable discussion
> on the naming of a project.
>
> IMHO, the right answer is *not* to buck this up to the incubator PMC, or
> to members, or *gasp* to the board. A much better approach would be:
>
> 1) Have the incubator PMC identify a clear set of constraints that apply
> to *all* names. Vote on them, document them, and move on.
>
Which should also be the minimum requirements for all names whether in
the Incubator or without.
> 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
> accountable for their decision.
+1. I think the Incubator PMC is in a kind of unique position. We are
trying to ensure that new projects/new committers in new projects are
working in "The Apache Way". So for me, the Incubator PMC shouldn't
actually be voting to make the decision for the incubating project. It
should simply be checking that the decision has been made appropriately.
If anyone in the PMC vetoes a PPMC decision it should be on the basis
that the decision does not meet the ASF requirements, not on the basis
that we do/don't like a name (for example).
Anything else takes the decision away from the project in inubation, and
I'm not sure I see how that is fostering the Apache way.
Cheers,
Berin
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Leo Simons wrote:
>>
>> And how is this not a community decision?
>>
> IMV, the community has decided, and making a different
> decision now would be overruling that decision by the pmc.
> Which is valid, of course, but I don't have to like it :D
+1
Stefano recently used the term bureaucracy to describe aspects of the ASF.
Observations:
1) The incubator PMC is acquiring new PMC members, and will
asymptotically aproach the list of all ASF committers who are involved
in any way with any aspect of growth or regeneration of code bases. In
short, it will become the epitame of an uber umbrella PMC.
2) I can think of no decision more akin to a bike shed than the naming
of a project.
The inevitable result of these two factors is an interminable discussion
on the naming of a project.
IMHO, the right answer is *not* to buck this up to the incubator PMC, or
to members, or *gasp* to the board. A much better approach would be:
1) Have the incubator PMC identify a clear set of constraints that apply
to *all* names. Vote on them, document them, and move on.
2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
accountable for their decision.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
Aaron Bannert wrote:
>On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 08:53:55PM +0100, Leo Simons wrote:
>
>
>>Aaron Bannert wrote:
>>
>>>[ -0 ] - Let them keep "Geronimo" as the official name.
>>>[ -0 ] - Punt the decision to members@.
>>>[ -1 ] - Disallow "Geronimo" but allow the committers to come up with any
>>> other name they want (barring anything inappropriate).
>>>
>>>
>You cut out the part that said "chose one of the following". That looks
>like you didn't chose the first two, but are firmly againt the third. :)
>
exactly! My choice does not fit on the form ;)
>>I don't like multiple-choice votes like this! Further, I think
>>this should be a community decision, not a pmc decision.
>>
>>
>And how is this not a community decision?
>
IMV, the community has decided, and making a different
decision now would be overruling that decision by the pmc.
Which is valid, of course, but I don't have to like it :D
>>Some other points for your consideration:
>>
>>* The issue was discussed, at length, before, and the end
>>result was that the name was kept.
>>
>>
>And before that discussion happened, it was discussed, at length,
>within the ASF members, and some people decided that it was
>inappropriate.
>
I was under the impression (though I can't figure out why
from the archives) that the decision reached by the members
was something like "we don't agree, so we don't act".
>That's why we're having this vote, to finally get
>some closure.
>
Okay, thanks for providing some extra context. big +1 to closure :D
>>* I am sure the board and the majority of the members
>>are already long aware by now that there's a project named
>>"Geronimo" and I think lazy consensus works well there;
>>I certainly don't believe the incubator pmc should request
>>they decide for us.
>>
>>
>Lazy concensus does not mean you get to close off future commentary and
>opinion just because it comes late!
>
never my intention 8-)
rephrase: with my PMC hat on, I don't think the PMC
needs to make the members aware of anything or ask
them to act, simply because they are already aware, and
are furthermore perfectly capable of making any/all
neccessary decisions themselves (at least I'd hope so :D),
cheers!
- LSD
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 08:53:55PM +0100, Leo Simons wrote:
> Aaron Bannert wrote:
>
> > [ -0 ] - Let them keep "Geronimo" as the official name.
> > [ -0 ] - Punt the decision to members@.
> > [ -1 ] - Disallow "Geronimo" but allow the committers to come up with any
> > other name they want (barring anything inappropriate).
You cut out the part that said "chose one of the following". That looks
like you didn't chose the first two, but are firmly againt the third. :)
> I don't like multiple-choice votes like this! Further, I think
> this should be a community decision, not a pmc decision.
And how is this not a community decision? The Incubator PMC is a
committee that was created to represent the entire community of ASF
members on topics related to incubation. On top of that, this vote
was posted on the general@incubator list (a public list) for public
commentary.
> Some other points for your consideration:
>
> * The issue was discussed, at length, before, and the end
> result was that the name was kept.
And before that discussion happened, it was discussed, at length,
within the ASF members, and some people decided that it was
inappropriate. That's why we're having this vote, to finally get
some closure.
> * I am sure the board and the majority of the members
> are already long aware by now that there's a project named
> "Geronimo" and I think lazy consensus works well there;
> I certainly don't believe the incubator pmc should request
> they decide for us.
Lazy concensus does not mean you get to close off future commentary and
opinion just because it comes late!
-aaron
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>.
On 30 Nov 2003, at 21:20, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> The project was initiated on condition that the name would be
> reconsidered prior to becoming a TLP.
Agreed. My feeling is lets postpone this discussion until becoming a
TLP.
We're gonna have to move CVS repos, change mail lists etc anyways
whenever Geronimo leaves the incubator - so thats an ideal time to have
the vote. Also having the vote on the geronimo-dev mail list, where
most of the geronimo community hangs out is probably a good idea.
> I don't really care at this
> point, except to note that if we do get an objection regarding the
> name from folks who have a right to object, then the project will
> have to change its name and everyone who has coded to the geronimo
> class names will be hosed (not that it matters much for a J2EE
> container). That objection is more likely to come from the other
> companies using it as a trademark.
Agreed.
James
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
The project was initiated on condition that the name would be
reconsidered prior to becoming a TLP. I don't really care at this
point, except to note that if we do get an objection regarding the
name from folks who have a right to object, then the project will
have to change its name and everyone who has coded to the geronimo
class names will be hosed (not that it matters much for a J2EE
container). That objection is more likely to come from the other
companies using it as a trademark.
....Roy
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
Aaron Bannert wrote:
> [ -0 ] - Let them keep "Geronimo" as the official name.
> [ -0 ] - Punt the decision to members@.
> [ -1 ] - Disallow "Geronimo" but allow the committers to come up with any
> other name they want (barring anything inappropriate).
>
I don't like multiple-choice votes like this! Further, I think
this should be a community decision, not a pmc decision.
Some other points for your consideration:
* The issue was discussed, at length, before, and the end
result was that the name was kept.
* I am sure the board and the majority of the members
are already long aware by now that there's a project named
"Geronimo" and I think lazy consensus works well there;
I certainly don't believe the incubator pmc should request
they decide for us.
* back in september (or so), there was someone who
contacted some indian rights organisation about the name,
and the woman who replied strongly suggested the name
should not be used because it would be offensive to
native americans. Can't find the post right now, but it was
there.
* we could debate controversy, political correctless
and/or programmers on drugs for a long time, but I doubt
that will bring to life new facts above and beyond the
discussion that already took place.
back to my corner!
- LSD
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
> I'm changing my vote, not because I don't believe in my earlier
> thoughts, but becausewe are wasting so much time and energy on something
> that should be much simpler.
This gets my vote for the most unprincipled vote in this whole thread.
Andreas
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Aaron Bannert wrote:
>
>> The Geronimo folks are talking about making logos and there seems to
>> be a desire to have official signoff on the name. Please vote on one
>> of the following choices:
[ ] - Let them keep "Geronimo" as the official name.
[ ] - Punt the decision to members@.
[X] - Disallow "Geronimo" but allow the committers to come up with any
other name they want (barring anything inappropriate).
The amount of negative energy this has generated is too much IMHO.
I'm changing my vote, not because I don't believe in my earlier
thoughts, but becausewe are wasting so much time and energy on something
that should be much simpler.
And as Brian said, coming up with a new name shouldn't be so hard.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Aaron Bannert wrote:
> The Geronimo folks are talking about making logos and there seems to
> be a desire to have official signoff on the name. Please vote on one
> of the following choices:
[X] - Let them keep "Geronimo" as the official name.
[ ] - Punt the decision to members@.
[ ] - Disallow "Geronimo" but allow the committers to come up with any
other name they want (barring anything inappropriate).
I was going to vote to disallow, as it seems that others feel like it
too, but, wait, I thought, this is *my* vote, and heck, it has to say
what *I* feel.
I have personally seen that the Geronimo name has been more liked than
hated, and to me personally it has a good meaning. Giving that name to
something that I believe in and that I want to support, is to me
somewhat honoring the name. Especially when this name has become more an
icon than a reference to the actual holder.
Yes, this is against the common thoughts I read here, but still what I
think.
I also think that "political correctness" has become in these years more
and more ridiculous, even here in Italy. We are not calling things the
names we want to because someone somewhere may feel offended.
Did I want to offend them? Heck, no, so please cut it off.
The Geronimo name has already been used *soo* much, that backing off now
would probably be even worse, as it will IMHO spur a discussion about
this whole thing.
The more we discuss about it, the more the issue becomes bigger and
bigger. Personally, I don't see any issue.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> [X] - Let them keep "Geronimo" as the official name.
> [ ] - Punt the decision to members@.
> [ ] - Disallow "Geronimo" but allow the committers to come up with any
> other name they want (barring anything inappropriate).
Unless the legal dept turn up and say it is a risky name. The decision
should not be punted to members, but members might want to raise the issue
of the name and then get back to the Geronimo community about a need to
change the name.
Hen
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RE: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> The Geronimo folks are talking about making logos and there seems to
> be a desire to have official signoff on the name. Please vote on one
> of the following choices:
[ ] - Let them keep "Geronimo" as the official name.
[ ] - Punt the decision to members@.
[X] - Disallow "Geronimo" but allow the committers to come up with any
other name they want (barring anything inappropriate).
"Disallow" is a bit strong for a vote, rather than a veto, but I would
prefer that a new name be chosen.
Reason #1: Prior use. *All* of the following use the name Geronimo
to refer to either a company, brand or product in the
software field.
http://www.apexdatasystems.com/geronimo.html
http://www.teamgeronimo.com/
http://www.geronimotechnologies.com/
http://www.casefinder.com/
http://geronimo.tor.it/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/geronimo/
http://www.eurocrypt.net/
All of them have prior claim.
Reason #2: the stated desire to not use Native American
names for ASF projects.
FWIW, some people are already starting to use the name with negative
connotations, e.g., http://www.jroller.com/page/shareme/20030806.
I would like to at least see alternative names explored.
--- Noel
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