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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org> on 2020/01/16 15:14:21 UTC
How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to
private list)
Reminder: this Whimsy tool for committers can subscribe/unsubscribe you
from almost any list that you're allowed to subscribe to (i.e. including
PPMC lists or private@ if you have permissions for them)
https://whimsy.apache.org/committers/subscribe
Justin Mclean wrote on 2020-1-9 7:47PM EST:
> Hi,
>
> A number of IPMC members are not subscribed to teh Incubator private list. This also includes some current mentors. I’ve just sent out a friendly email to those not subscribed asking them to subscribe.
If Justin's still volunteering for this (thanks!), I suggest sending one
last reminder to people not subscribed (with the above link), wait a
week, and then remove those still not subscribed from the IPMC. If they
aren't on private@, they're not actively providing oversight.
--
- Shane
IPMC & Member
The Apache Software Foundation
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Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to
private list)
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> If Justin's still volunteering for this (thanks!)
Yep I am.
> If they aren't on private@, they're not actively providing oversight.
And that’s the issue. They should be signed up general@ as well as most things go in there.
In the email that was sent out to them all, how to subscribe (via email and via whimsy) was included.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to
private list)
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> This should be documented clearly under expectations from IPMC members.
It is an expectation that all PMC members sign up to their private mailing list, that applies to all projects not just the Incubator.
When you joined the IPMC you should of received a welcome message [1] which included how to sign up to the private list. I know that some people in the past on the IPMC may of not got this message, all recent people have..
> If there is a period of inactivity after which IPMC members will be removed,
> then people should know this up front.
There’s is not. People who are inactivate can be active again and we do get votes on releases from people who are mostly inactive in other ways.
There is an expectation that mentor will remain active and if not step down so replacements can be found as needed.
Thanks,.
Justin
1. https://incubator.apache.org/guides/chair.html#adding_new_incubator_pmc_members
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Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to
private list)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 9:10 PM Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi -
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 16, 2020, at 6:56 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>
> wrote:
>
>...
> > In the case of people asking to be removed from the IPMC, they are
> removed from the roster, this is reported in the next Incubator board
> report and if there no objections from the board they would then be
> considered non longer IPMC members. So a roster may not 100% accurately
> reflect who is actually a IPMC member at a point in time.
> >
> > What we would be doing is removing people from the roster who have not
> signed up to the private list and they can be added back to the roster by
> performing one simple action. We would not be asking the board to remove
> them from the IPMC.
>
There is no distinct "roster" and "membership".
The canonical "source of truth" on committee membership is
committee-info.txt. Everything falls out from that. The "roster" that
Whimsy displays. How LDAP gets configured. etc. The Foundation uses that
file to record changes, and membership. Removing somebody from that file
can only be performed via Board resolution.
(of course, unless you mean something else by "roster")
I think that without an explicit resignation they must remain IPMC members.
> The only exception would be those who have gone emeritus or have passed on.
> The driver is membership.
>
Disagree. That does not comport with history/precedent. See below.
> An IPMC Member who is not a Member and is no longer subscribed should be
> consider individually on private@i.a.o.
>
> The Board evaluates PMCs via roll calls on private@. I’m not aware of
> cases of PMCs throwing people off w/o a resignation and as you Justin
> should be aware the Board goes to the extreme to prevent it. (The current
> Board may differ from prior Boards, but let’s not test it!)
>
There have been a number of cases of involuntary removal. Although I'm
using "involuntary" in only the loosest sense here, because the people
indicated no desire one way or another. About 15 people were removed from
the Apache HTTPD PMC in November 2014:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2014/board_minutes_2014_11_19.txt
There have been a couple other cases, too.
Let me also fine-tune a statement above, Dave: "cases of PMCs throwing
people off". That is not possible. Only the Board can do that.
> Alternatively do any of the board members here think that not signing up
> to the private mailing list is grounds for removal from a PMC? Where they
> actually on it in the first place?
>
I cannot speak for the Board, but I believe they would be amenable to
removing those IPMC members, if and only if, there have been one or more
attempts to reach out to them. The Apache HTTPD spent a year or two, with
several calls to see if anybody wanted to remain. The 15 delivered to the
Board was the result of that activity. As you can see from the Minutes, the
Board approved the resolution and removed all 15.
Cheers,
-g
Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to
private list)
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> I think also that we should contact and notifying them
We have about 10% responded by signing up or aedsking to be removed.
Thanks.
Justin
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RE: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to
private list)
Posted by "Jerpelea, Alin" <Al...@sony.com>.
I think also that we should contact and notifying them
Alin
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net>
Sent: den 17 januari 2020 04:10
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list)
Hi -
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 16, 2020, at 6:56 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>> Only the Board can remove members from a PMC, and "lack of activity"
>> not one they typically support.
>
> +1 We are not considering removing inactive IPMC members, they can ask be be removed if that want to be, but until then we’re happy to have them.
>
> In the case of people asking to be removed from the IPMC, they are removed from the roster, this is reported in the next Incubator board report and if there no objections from the board they would then be considered non longer IPMC members. So a roster may not 100% accurately reflect who is actually a IPMC member at a point in time.
>
> What we would be doing is removing people from the roster who have not signed up to the private list and they can be added back to the roster by performing one simple action. We would not be asking the board to remove them from the IPMC.
I think that without an explicit resignation they must remain IPMC members. The only exception would be those who have gone emeritus or have passed on. The driver is membership.
An IPMC Member who is not a Member and is no longer subscribed should be consider individually on private@i.a.o.
The Board evaluates PMCs via roll calls on private@. I’m not aware of cases of PMCs throwing people off w/o a resignation and as you Justin should be aware the Board goes to the extreme to prevent it. (The current Board may differ from prior Boards, but let’s not test it!)
>
> Alternatively do any of the board members here think that not signing up to the private mailing list is grounds for removal from a PMC? Where they actually on it in the first place?
I’m for contacting and asking, but not for forcing.
Thanks Greg.
Regards,
Dave
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
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>
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Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list)
Posted by Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net>.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 16, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>> I think that without an explicit resignation they must remain IPMC members.
>
> That's what I was saying. But in that case do they need to be on the roster?
Yes, the roster is the source of record of the PMC membership.
>
>> I’m for contacting and asking, but not for forcing.
>
>
> OK. They where contacted and asked a week ago and will contacted and ask again. Given previous response I’m only expecting a few (5-10%) to respond.
>
> Shanes suggestion was "I suggest sending one last reminder to people not subscribed, wait a week, and then remove those still not subscribed from the IPMC”, now I took that to to be removal from the roster rather than the IPMC but he may mean IPMC removal. Greg and Bertrand's messages seem to imply actually removal.
There may not be agreement about this. I think we will need clarity from the Board as a whole. Please send a simple request to board@ regarding involuntary removal due to silence/non-subscription. Please include some measure in time. Eg. after 1 year, 1 month, or ? Maybe a PMC will need to VOTE. I don’t want to set a precedent that is a problem for any PMC. What works for the Incubator should work for POI, OpenOffice, Hadoop, Lucene, etc.
Regards,
Dave
PS. Your recent pings of podlings has really helped. After years ECharts has all the initial PPMC subscribed.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
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Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to
private list)
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> I think that without an explicit resignation they must remain IPMC members.
That's what I was saying. But in that case do they need to be on the roster?
> I’m for contacting and asking, but not for forcing.
OK. They where contacted and asked a week ago and will contacted and ask again. Given previous response I’m only expecting a few (5-10%) to respond.
Shanes suggestion was "I suggest sending one last reminder to people not subscribed, wait a week, and then remove those still not subscribed from the IPMC”, now I took that to to be removal from the roster rather than the IPMC but he may mean IPMC removal. Greg and Bertrand's messages seem to imply actually removal.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list)
Posted by Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net>.
Hi -
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 16, 2020, at 6:56 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>> Only the Board can remove members from a PMC, and "lack of activity" not
>> one they typically support.
>
> +1 We are not considering removing inactive IPMC members, they can ask be be removed if that want to be, but until then we’re happy to have them.
>
> In the case of people asking to be removed from the IPMC, they are removed from the roster, this is reported in the next Incubator board report and if there no objections from the board they would then be considered non longer IPMC members. So a roster may not 100% accurately reflect who is actually a IPMC member at a point in time.
>
> What we would be doing is removing people from the roster who have not signed up to the private list and they can be added back to the roster by performing one simple action. We would not be asking the board to remove them from the IPMC.
I think that without an explicit resignation they must remain IPMC members. The only exception would be those who have gone emeritus or have passed on. The driver is membership.
An IPMC Member who is not a Member and is no longer subscribed should be consider individually on private@i.a.o.
The Board evaluates PMCs via roll calls on private@. I’m not aware of cases of PMCs throwing people off w/o a resignation and as you Justin should be aware the Board goes to the extreme to prevent it. (The current Board may differ from prior Boards, but let’s not test it!)
>
> Alternatively do any of the board members here think that not signing up to the private mailing list is grounds for removal from a PMC? Where they actually on it in the first place?
I’m for contacting and asking, but not for forcing.
Thanks Greg.
Regards,
Dave
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
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>
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Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to
private list)
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> Only the Board can remove members from a PMC, and "lack of activity" not
> one they typically support.
+1 We are not considering removing inactive IPMC members, they can ask be be removed if that want to be, but until then we’re happy to have them.
In the case of people asking to be removed from the IPMC, they are removed from the roster, this is reported in the next Incubator board report and if there no objections from the board they would then be considered non longer IPMC members. So a roster may not 100% accurately reflect who is actually a IPMC member at a point in time.
What we would be doing is removing people from the roster who have not signed up to the private list and they can be added back to the roster by performing one simple action. We would not be asking the board to remove them from the IPMC.
Alternatively do any of the board members here think that not signing up to the private mailing list is grounds for removal from a PMC? Where they actually on it in the first place?
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to
private list)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 9:59 AM Nathan Hartman <ha...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>...
> This should be documented clearly under expectations from IPMC members. If
> there is a period of inactivity after which IPMC members will be removed,
> then people should know this up front.
>
Only the Board can remove members from a PMC, and "lack of activity" not
one they typically support. They _have_ supported "we reached out several
times over the course of a year, and got no response" as valid. ... The
consideration for IPMC member removal might be a bit lower for the IPMC
since it is (currently) has a low bar for joining for ASF Members.
As Justin notes elsethread, the random "IPMC person pops up for activity
one week, then goes silent for two years" is a valid and supported pattern.
Cheers,
-g
Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to
private list)
Posted by Nathan Hartman <ha...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 10:14 AM Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org> wrote:
> If Justin's still volunteering for this (thanks!), I suggest sending one
> last reminder to people not subscribed (with the above link), wait a
> week, and then remove those still not subscribed from the IPMC. If they
> aren't on private@, they're not actively providing oversight.
This should be documented clearly under expectations from IPMC members. If
there is a period of inactivity after which IPMC members will be removed,
then people should know this up front.
Nathan