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Posted to user@couchdb.apache.org by Zdravko Gligic <zg...@gmail.com> on 2014/10/28 15:46:02 UTC
Re: user Digest 28 Oct 2014 14:01:47 -0000 Issue 1673
I think what the silhouette is missing is a bottle of beer, in at least one
hand. And what if we put some clothes on at least "his" bottom part?
And one more thing, at the expense of coming across chauvinist and
offensive .... Maria, I love you! ... You are my kind of a woman! :)
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 10:01 AM, <us...@couchdb.apache.org>
wrote:
>
> user Digest 28 Oct 2014 14:01:47 -0000 Issue 1673
>
> Topics (messages 28492 through 28503)
>
> Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
> 28492 by: Andy Wenk
> 28493 by: Benoit Chesneau
> 28494 by: Bryan Green
> 28495 by: Lena Reinhard
> 28496 by: Jason Smith
> 28497 by: Maria
> 28498 by: Bryan Green
> 28499 by: Alexander Shorin
> 28500 by: Giovanni P
> 28501 by: Bryan Green
> 28502 by: Bryan Green
> 28503 by: Giovanni P
>
> Administrivia:
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org>
> To: "user@couchdb.apache.org" <us...@couchdb.apache.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 10:37:23 +0100
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
> On 28 October 2014 10:15, Nick North <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't see anything offensive in the attitude of the man on the couch.
> But
> > I would be more sympathetic to the complaint that it is definitely a man,
> > in a very male attitude, and that might be enough to put some women off
> > becoming involved in the community.
> >
> > Nick
> >
>
> that's the reason why I wrote "man" and not "person" to underline the fact,
> that it is obviously a man ... what could lead to problems (I don't really
> see though ...)
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
>
> >
> > On 28 October 2014 08:35, Thomas Lindgren <u....@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > If you want to change the logo, I recommend doing it the
> > > professional/business way: putting up some money and hiring a good
> design
> > > firm. They've done it before and have a broader perspective. Basically,
> > let
> > > them ask you the questions about the brand; no design back seat driving
> > > from you; choose among the alternatives they give you, or ask for more.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Thomas
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > first of all thanks to Joan for bringing this up. As Paul stated, if
> > > > someone is feeling attacked we should discuss it.
> > > >
> > > > I have viewed (if not gazed) the logo for several minutes. I can
> > > understand
> > > > that someone is seeing a man with a maybe vulgar attitude. I
> personally
> > > > don't see that. The whole idea combined with the "Relax" statement
> fits
> > > > perfectly together.
> > > >
> > > > Then I started to ask Luigi, our senior designer, and asked him what
> he
> > > > sees. He said "a relaxed man on a couch" (he did not know the term
> > relax
> > > > btw.). I asked him why he said "a man". He answered, because mostly
> men
> > > are
> > > > hanging around on a couch like this.
> > > >
> > > > So yes, it is a relaxed man and someone could interpret his attitude
> > > vulgar
> > > > or offensive. But it's still a relaxed man with no other intention.
> > > Nothing
> > > > more. I am not sure why someone could assume, that the logo's meaning
> > or
> > > > intention should be something else than that.
> > > >
> > > > As a member of this community, I am feeling very responsible to not
> > harm
> > > > anyone. Be it women or men. In this case, I don't see a problem
> > > personally
> > > > but I will for sure help to find a solution if we decide to change
> the
> > > > logo.
> > > >
> > > > First shot for a minimal change: let the man cross his left leg over
> > his
> > > > right leg. Unfortunately this is not simple to do as my colleague
> Luigi
> > > > noted. It would mean to also change the position of the man and maybe
> > the
> > > > size of the couch.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >
> > > > Andy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 28 October 2014 08:40, Pedro Narciso García Revington <
> > > > p.revington@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I like the logo and I do not see the reason to change it.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2014-10-28 1:27 GMT+01:00 Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > At 3 different conferences I've attended in 2014: CloudantCON
> 2014,
> > > > > > OSCON 2014 and Velocity NYC 2014, I've been approached by people
> > > > > > complaining about the CouchDB logo. The argument is that the logo
> > > looks
> > > > > > like a man who is posed in a suggestive way, or as one person put
> > it,
> > > > > > "showing you his crotch and inviting you over."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > These were not lighthearted expressions of concern to me over
> > drinks
> > > -
> > > > > > they were heartfelt complaints from people who care about CouchDB
> > and
> > > > > > its image in the open source community.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I must admit I didn't think it was an issue at first, but like
> the
> > > > > > saying goes, once you've seen it, you can't un-see it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As a reminder here is our current logo:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/couchdb/supplement/logo/couchdb-logo.png
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Or in SVG:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/couchdb/supplement/logo/couchdb-logo.svg
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'd like to propose improving the logo with a new drawing that
> > keeps
> > > > the
> > > > > > same theme - red couch, reclining figure in white - but alters
> the
> > > pose
> > > > > > to be a bit less suggestive. Other suggestions are welcome,
> > > naturally,
> > > > > > but a redrawn current-style logo probably has the least
> objections.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Of course, if we agree to such a change, I'll need your help. I
> > can't
> > > > > > draw, and I'm sure many of the rest of you can't either. If
> you're
> > an
> > > > > > artist, and you agree, would you consider posting an altered logo
> > in
> > > > > > reply to this thread that fixes the problem?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You can find all of the source files (Adobe Illustrator) at:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/couchdb/supplement/logo/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Joan
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Andy Wenk
> > > > Hamburg - Germany
> > > > RockIt!
> > > >
> > > > GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
> > > >
> > > > https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Andy Wenk
> Hamburg - Germany
> RockIt!
>
> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>
> https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>
> To: "user@couchdb.apache.org" <us...@couchdb.apache.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 11:53:24 +0100
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Nick North <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't see anything offensive in the attitude of the man on the couch.
> But
> > I would be more sympathetic to the complaint that it is definitely a man,
> > in a very male attitude, and that might be enough to put some women off
> > becoming involved in the community.
> >
>
> sure that is totally a man position:
>
> http://www.boijmans.nl/nl/116/nieuwsbrief/newsletteritem/421
>
> http://artobserved.com/2009/07/go-see-madrid-henri-matisse-at-museo-thyssen-bornemisza-through-september-20-2009/
>
> Seriously, can people just go back IRL.
>
> - benoit
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com>
> To: user@couchdb.apache.org
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 05:58:46 -0500
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
> When the image lacks detail to signify it is not a man it will be thought
> to be male. IRL.
> On Oct 28, 2014 5:54 AM, "Benoit Chesneau" <bc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Nick North <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I don't see anything offensive in the attitude of the man on the couch.
> > But
> > > I would be more sympathetic to the complaint that it is definitely a
> man,
> > > in a very male attitude, and that might be enough to put some women off
> > > becoming involved in the community.
> > >
> >
> > sure that is totally a man position:
> >
> > http://www.boijmans.nl/nl/116/nieuwsbrief/newsletteritem/421
> >
> >
> http://artobserved.com/2009/07/go-see-madrid-henri-matisse-at-museo-thyssen-bornemisza-through-september-20-2009/
> >
> > Seriously, can people just go back IRL.
> >
> > - benoit
> >
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Lena Reinhard <le...@thehoodiefirm.com>
> To: user@couchdb.apache.org
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 12:52:23 +0100
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
> Joan, thanks for sharing the experiences you had. I find it quite
> interesting that it's been happening a few times even, and I'm glad people
> shared their thoughts on it.
>
> First, as far as I perceive the topic, this is not just about the question
> if people just "like" the logo or don't. It's about people feeling offended
> by it. And thus, it would not be about personal taste or preferences.
> (Side note, as we're talking about "what does the logo remind us of?" –
> http://savingroomforcats.tumblr.com/ )
>
> Secondly, this is not necessarily about the intentions of the logo. It may
> have been created depicting a person without an explicit gender expression,
> and that would be completely alright. But good intentions do generally not
> mean that the intention aligns with the final perception. That's one of the
> basics of human interaction and communication, and our logo is part of what
> we communicate around this project. This logo is even a very central part,
> as it can be recognised very well, it has a prominient spot on most of
> CouchDB's web sites, and we even have stickers with it. A consequence of
> this can (worst case) even be that people stay away from the community
> because the logo communicates to them that it's not a place for them.
>
> And as this obviously can be read as offensive by people, imo it's our
> responsibility as a community to discuss this issue and how to handle this
> – not based on the question whether we individually "like" the logo or not,
> but on the question whether people could find it offensive (which some
> obviously do) and how we handle this – e.g. who could think of alternative
> versions of the logo, and similar questions.
> We are a community which has recently put up a Code of Conduct and
> Diversity statement, and as such, I see caring about this topic as part of
> our responsibility here.
>
> On 28 Oct 2014, at 11:58, Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > When the image lacks detail to signify it is not a man it will be thought
> > to be male. IRL.
> > On Oct 28, 2014 5:54 AM, "Benoit Chesneau" <bc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Nick North <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I don't see anything offensive in the attitude of the man on the couch.
> >> But
> >>> I would be more sympathetic to the complaint that it is definitely a
> man,
> >>> in a very male attitude, and that might be enough to put some women off
> >>> becoming involved in the community.
> >>>
> >>
> >> sure that is totally a man position:
> >>
> >> http://www.boijmans.nl/nl/116/nieuwsbrief/newsletteritem/421
> >>
> >>
> http://artobserved.com/2009/07/go-see-madrid-henri-matisse-at-museo-thyssen-bornemisza-through-september-20-2009/
> >>
> >> Seriously, can people just go back IRL.
> >>
> >> - benoit
> >>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jason Smith <ja...@gmail.com>
> To: "dev@couchdb.apache.org" <de...@couchdb.apache.org>
> Cc: "user@couchdb.apache.org" <us...@couchdb.apache.org>, Joan Touzet <
> wohali@apache.org>
> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 18:52:44 +0700
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
> I have been thinking about Brad's point for a long time now. What exactly
> is relaxing? Since CouchDB came out, web APIs, NoSQL and JavaScript have
> become [more] mainstream. Today's users are not impressed that they can
> store an unstructured JSON blob, or that they can use JavaScript on the
> server.
>
> I am torn about Joan's observations. On the one hand, I'd hate to
> over-steer, to make a big change because a tiny minority of people
> interpret a bit of art a particular way. But on the other hand, Joan would
> be the first person most people come to with such an issue. Maybe she has a
> better perspective; she detects a problem that I can't see.
>
> For now though, my provisional position is to agree with Benoit about the
> art, and Brad about the tagline. The man thinks he is alone. He is doing
> what people do when they relax. We are spying on that behavior, and that is
> what makes it real and convincing. The man is not a sales rep with a
> dubious promise of relaxation. He really is relaxing.
>
> I don't plan to post again, simply because of bike shedding. I'm fine with
> any decision. But I suggest: as long as the tagline is "relax," keep the
> logo. Discuss changing the tagline (and also the logo), and even put a
> project rename on the table while we're here. (This has been discussed
> before, there are some good arguments.)
>
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 8:26 AM, Brad Noble <br...@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>
> > Suggestive as it may be, the logo clearly embodies the idea of "relax."
> > Specifics of the image aside, is "relax" what we want people to think of
> > when they think of CouchDB? To me, the idea that CouchDB is about
> > relaxation is outmoded. A good thought for the beginnings, but not for
> the
> > long-haul. If not relaxation, then what?
> >
> >
> >
> > [image: Inactive hide details for Bryan Green ---10/27/2014 09:19:07
> > PM---I think it would be interesting just to get rid of the person]Bryan
> > Green ---10/27/2014 09:19:07 PM---I think it would be interesting just to
> > get rid of the person altogether and have some sort of styli
> >
> > From: Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com>
> > To: dev@couchdb.apache.org, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>
> > Cc: user@couchdb.apache.org
> > Date: 10/27/2014 09:19 PM
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
> > ------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > I think it would be interesting just to get rid of the person altogether
> > and have some sort of stylized couch.
> >
> > Bryan Green aka "lispyone"
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 7:27 PM, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > At 3 different conferences I've attended in 2014: CloudantCON 2014,
> > > OSCON 2014 and Velocity NYC 2014, I've been approached by people
> > > complaining about the CouchDB logo. The argument is that the logo looks
> > > like a man who is posed in a suggestive way, or as one person put it,
> > > "showing you his crotch and inviting you over."
> > >
> > > These were not lighthearted expressions of concern to me over drinks -
> > > they were heartfelt complaints from people who care about CouchDB and
> > > its image in the open source community.
> > >
> > > I must admit I didn't think it was an issue at first, but like the
> > > saying goes, once you've seen it, you can't un-see it.
> > >
> > > As a reminder here is our current logo:
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/couchdb/supplement/logo/couchdb-logo.png
> > >
> > > Or in SVG:
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/couchdb/supplement/logo/couchdb-logo.svg
> > >
> > > I'd like to propose improving the logo with a new drawing that keeps
> the
> > > same theme - red couch, reclining figure in white - but alters the pose
> > > to be a bit less suggestive. Other suggestions are welcome, naturally,
> > > but a redrawn current-style logo probably has the least objections.
> > >
> > > Of course, if we agree to such a change, I'll need your help. I can't
> > > draw, and I'm sure many of the rest of you can't either. If you're an
> > > artist, and you agree, would you consider posting an altered logo in
> > > reply to this thread that fixes the problem?
> > >
> > > You can find all of the source files (Adobe Illustrator) at:
> > >
> > > https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/couchdb/supplement/logo/
> > >
> > > -Joan
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Maria <ma...@dualpose.com>
> To: user@couchdb.apache.org
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 14:24:34 +0100
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
> On Tue, 28 Oct 2014 12:52:23 +0100
> Lena Reinhard <le...@thehoodiefirm.com> wrote:
>
> > Joan, thanks for sharing the experiences you had. I find it quite
> > interesting that it's been happening a few times even, and I'm glad
> > people shared their thoughts on it.
> >
> > First, as far as I perceive the topic, this is not just about the
> > question if people just "like" the logo or don't. It's about people
> > feeling offended by it. And thus, it would not be about personal
> > taste or preferences. (Side note, as we're talking about "what does
> > the logo remind us of?" – http://savingroomforcats.tumblr.com/ )
> >
> > Secondly, this is not necessarily about the intentions of the logo.
> > It may have been created depicting a person without an explicit
> > gender expression, and that would be completely alright. But good
> > intentions do generally not mean that the intention aligns with the
> > final perception. That's one of the basics of human interaction and
> > communication, and our logo is part of what we communicate around
> > this project. This logo is even a very central part, as it can be
> > recognised very well, it has a prominient spot on most of CouchDB's
> > web sites, and we even have stickers with it. A consequence of this
> > can (worst case) even be that people stay away from the community
> > because the logo communicates to them that it's not a place for them.
> >
> > And as this obviously can be read as offensive by people, imo it's
> > our responsibility as a community to discuss this issue and how to
> > handle this – not based on the question whether we individually
> > "like" the logo or not, but on the question whether people could find
> > it offensive (which some obviously do) and how we handle this – e.g.
> > who could think of alternative versions of the logo, and similar
> > questions. We are a community which has recently put up a Code of
> > Conduct and Diversity statement, and as such, I see caring about this
> > topic as part of our responsibility here.
>
> Someone somewhere is offended because their dirty imagination sees a
> man on a couch inviting a girl over for some lewd action.
> So?
> There is always someone that is offended. Specially those that try
> very hard to be offended.
>
> <sarcasm>
> As a woman I pick databases based on the logo. The more girls with pink
> dresses and sparkling stars the better. Technical reasons like
> replication and solving conflicts have nothing to do with it.
> And I find a man relaxing on a couch so offensive that I will change the
> database I use.
> </sarcasm>
>
> // Maria
>
> > On 28 Oct 2014, at 11:58, Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > When the image lacks detail to signify it is not a man it will be
> > > thought to be male. IRL.
> > > On Oct 28, 2014 5:54 AM, "Benoit Chesneau" <bc...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Nick North <no...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I don't see anything offensive in the attitude of the man on the
> > >>> couch.
> > >> But
> > >>> I would be more sympathetic to the complaint that it is
> > >>> definitely a man, in a very male attitude, and that might be
> > >>> enough to put some women off becoming involved in the community.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> sure that is totally a man position:
> > >>
> > >> http://www.boijmans.nl/nl/116/nieuwsbrief/newsletteritem/421
> > >>
> > >>
> http://artobserved.com/2009/07/go-see-madrid-henri-matisse-at-museo-thyssen-bornemisza-through-september-20-2009/
> > >>
> > >> Seriously, can people just go back IRL.
> > >>
> > >> - benoit
> > >>
> >
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com>
> To: user@couchdb.apache.org
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 08:33:13 -0500
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
> I noticed you too seem to assume it is a man on the couch? Also, I am glad
> that you point out that the logo does not have anything to do with your use
> of CouchDB-- that encourages me to think that it will not be as big of an
> issue to change it.
>
> It may not offend you, but apparently it offends some people. This is a
> bad thing for a logo. I think this is why it is rare for the human figure
> to be common in most logos. Most keep logos very simple.
>
> Bryan
> On Oct 28, 2014 8:24 AM, "Maria" <ma...@dualpose.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 28 Oct 2014 12:52:23 +0100
> > Lena Reinhard <le...@thehoodiefirm.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Joan, thanks for sharing the experiences you had. I find it quite
> > > interesting that it's been happening a few times even, and I'm glad
> > > people shared their thoughts on it.
> > >
> > > First, as far as I perceive the topic, this is not just about the
> > > question if people just "like" the logo or don't. It's about people
> > > feeling offended by it. And thus, it would not be about personal
> > > taste or preferences. (Side note, as we're talking about "what does
> > > the logo remind us of?" – http://savingroomforcats.tumblr.com/ )
> > >
> > > Secondly, this is not necessarily about the intentions of the logo.
> > > It may have been created depicting a person without an explicit
> > > gender expression, and that would be completely alright. But good
> > > intentions do generally not mean that the intention aligns with the
> > > final perception. That's one of the basics of human interaction and
> > > communication, and our logo is part of what we communicate around
> > > this project. This logo is even a very central part, as it can be
> > > recognised very well, it has a prominient spot on most of CouchDB's
> > > web sites, and we even have stickers with it. A consequence of this
> > > can (worst case) even be that people stay away from the community
> > > because the logo communicates to them that it's not a place for them.
> > >
> > > And as this obviously can be read as offensive by people, imo it's
> > > our responsibility as a community to discuss this issue and how to
> > > handle this – not based on the question whether we individually
> > > "like" the logo or not, but on the question whether people could find
> > > it offensive (which some obviously do) and how we handle this – e.g.
> > > who could think of alternative versions of the logo, and similar
> > > questions. We are a community which has recently put up a Code of
> > > Conduct and Diversity statement, and as such, I see caring about this
> > > topic as part of our responsibility here.
> >
> > Someone somewhere is offended because their dirty imagination sees a
> > man on a couch inviting a girl over for some lewd action.
> > So?
> > There is always someone that is offended. Specially those that try
> > very hard to be offended.
> >
> > <sarcasm>
> > As a woman I pick databases based on the logo. The more girls with pink
> > dresses and sparkling stars the better. Technical reasons like
> > replication and solving conflicts have nothing to do with it.
> > And I find a man relaxing on a couch so offensive that I will change the
> > database I use.
> > </sarcasm>
> >
> > // Maria
> >
> > > On 28 Oct 2014, at 11:58, Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > When the image lacks detail to signify it is not a man it will be
> > > > thought to be male. IRL.
> > > > On Oct 28, 2014 5:54 AM, "Benoit Chesneau" <bc...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Nick North <no...@gmail.com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> I don't see anything offensive in the attitude of the man on the
> > > >>> couch.
> > > >> But
> > > >>> I would be more sympathetic to the complaint that it is
> > > >>> definitely a man, in a very male attitude, and that might be
> > > >>> enough to put some women off becoming involved in the community.
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> sure that is totally a man position:
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.boijmans.nl/nl/116/nieuwsbrief/newsletteritem/421
> > > >>
> > > >>
> >
> http://artobserved.com/2009/07/go-see-madrid-henri-matisse-at-museo-thyssen-bornemisza-through-september-20-2009/
> > > >>
> > > >> Seriously, can people just go back IRL.
> > > >>
> > > >> - benoit
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>
> To: "user@couchdb.apache.org" <us...@couchdb.apache.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 17:51:27 +0400
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > It may not offend you, but apparently it offends some people. This is a
> > bad thing for a logo. I think this is why it is rare for the human
> figure
> > to be common in most logos. Most keep logos very simple.
>
> There are 7 billion people on Earth - you'll never fit them all.
> Let's move away from abstract angry offended people to concrete ones
> with their own arguments why they thought that logo hits them and
> discuss their problem personally. Anyone around? Joan?
> Otherwise this is counterproductive discussion about edge cases which
> will never happens.
>
> --
> ,,,^..^,,,
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Giovanni P <fi...@gmail.com>
> To: "user@couchdb.apache.org" <us...@couchdb.apache.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 11:58:18 -0200
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
> If I declare myself offended (for no reason, because there is absolutely no
> reason to be offended by the present logo) by the next logo you come up
> with, will you change it?
>
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > It may not offend you, but apparently it offends some people. This is
> a
> > > bad thing for a logo. I think this is why it is rare for the human
> > figure
> > > to be common in most logos. Most keep logos very simple.
> >
> > There are 7 billion people on Earth - you'll never fit them all.
> > Let's move away from abstract angry offended people to concrete ones
> > with their own arguments why they thought that logo hits them and
> > discuss their problem personally. Anyone around? Joan?
> > Otherwise this is counterproductive discussion about edge cases which
> > will never happens.
> >
> > --
> > ,,,^..^,,,
> >
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com>
> To: user@couchdb.apache.org
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 06:59:03 -0700
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
> I agree. We have a definite list of complaints about the position of the
> human figure on the couch. Let's fix that at least. If it is a man then
> it is a man. I may be a little overly sensitive to these matters currently
> thanks to #gamergate.
>
> B
>
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 6:33 AM, Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I noticed you too seem to assume it is a man on the couch? Also, I am
> > glad that you point out that the logo does not have anything to do with
> > your use of CouchDB-- that encourages me to think that it will not be as
> > big of an issue to change it.
> >
> > It may not offend you, but apparently it offends some people. This is a
> > bad thing for a logo. I think this is why it is rare for the human
> figure
> > to be common in most logos. Most keep logos very simple.
> >
> > Bryan
> > On Oct 28, 2014 8:24 AM, "Maria" <ma...@dualpose.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 28 Oct 2014 12:52:23 +0100
> >> Lena Reinhard <le...@thehoodiefirm.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Joan, thanks for sharing the experiences you had. I find it quite
> >> > interesting that it's been happening a few times even, and I'm glad
> >> > people shared their thoughts on it.
> >> >
> >> > First, as far as I perceive the topic, this is not just about the
> >> > question if people just "like" the logo or don't. It's about people
> >> > feeling offended by it. And thus, it would not be about personal
> >> > taste or preferences. (Side note, as we're talking about "what does
> >> > the logo remind us of?" – http://savingroomforcats.tumblr.com/ )
> >> >
> >> > Secondly, this is not necessarily about the intentions of the logo.
> >> > It may have been created depicting a person without an explicit
> >> > gender expression, and that would be completely alright. But good
> >> > intentions do generally not mean that the intention aligns with the
> >> > final perception. That's one of the basics of human interaction and
> >> > communication, and our logo is part of what we communicate around
> >> > this project. This logo is even a very central part, as it can be
> >> > recognised very well, it has a prominient spot on most of CouchDB's
> >> > web sites, and we even have stickers with it. A consequence of this
> >> > can (worst case) even be that people stay away from the community
> >> > because the logo communicates to them that it's not a place for them.
> >> >
> >> > And as this obviously can be read as offensive by people, imo it's
> >> > our responsibility as a community to discuss this issue and how to
> >> > handle this – not based on the question whether we individually
> >> > "like" the logo or not, but on the question whether people could find
> >> > it offensive (which some obviously do) and how we handle this – e.g.
> >> > who could think of alternative versions of the logo, and similar
> >> > questions. We are a community which has recently put up a Code of
> >> > Conduct and Diversity statement, and as such, I see caring about this
> >> > topic as part of our responsibility here.
> >>
> >> Someone somewhere is offended because their dirty imagination sees a
> >> man on a couch inviting a girl over for some lewd action.
> >> So?
> >> There is always someone that is offended. Specially those that try
> >> very hard to be offended.
> >>
> >> <sarcasm>
> >> As a woman I pick databases based on the logo. The more girls with pink
> >> dresses and sparkling stars the better. Technical reasons like
> >> replication and solving conflicts have nothing to do with it.
> >> And I find a man relaxing on a couch so offensive that I will change the
> >> database I use.
> >> </sarcasm>
> >>
> >> // Maria
> >>
> >> > On 28 Oct 2014, at 11:58, Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > When the image lacks detail to signify it is not a man it will be
> >> > > thought to be male. IRL.
> >> > > On Oct 28, 2014 5:54 AM, "Benoit Chesneau" <bc...@gmail.com>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Nick North <no...@gmail.com>
> >> > >> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >>> I don't see anything offensive in the attitude of the man on the
> >> > >>> couch.
> >> > >> But
> >> > >>> I would be more sympathetic to the complaint that it is
> >> > >>> definitely a man, in a very male attitude, and that might be
> >> > >>> enough to put some women off becoming involved in the community.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> sure that is totally a man position:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> http://www.boijmans.nl/nl/116/nieuwsbrief/newsletteritem/421
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >>
> http://artobserved.com/2009/07/go-see-madrid-henri-matisse-at-museo-thyssen-bornemisza-through-september-20-2009/
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Seriously, can people just go back IRL.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> - benoit
> >> > >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com>
> To: user@couchdb.apache.org, fiatjaf@gmail.com
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 06:59:43 -0700
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
> I would assume we would discuss it as we are now.
>
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 6:58 AM, Giovanni P <fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If I declare myself offended (for no reason, because there is absolutely
> no
> > reason to be offended by the present logo) by the next logo you come up
> > with, will you change it?
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > It may not offend you, but apparently it offends some people. This
> is
> > a
> > > > bad thing for a logo. I think this is why it is rare for the human
> > > figure
> > > > to be common in most logos. Most keep logos very simple.
> > >
> > > There are 7 billion people on Earth - you'll never fit them all.
> > > Let's move away from abstract angry offended people to concrete ones
> > > with their own arguments why they thought that logo hits them and
> > > discuss their problem personally. Anyone around? Joan?
> > > Otherwise this is counterproductive discussion about edge cases which
> > > will never happens.
> > >
> > > --
> > > ,,,^..^,,,
> > >
> >
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Giovanni P <fi...@gmail.com>
> To: Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com>
> Cc: "user@couchdb.apache.org" <us...@couchdb.apache.org>
> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 12:00:16 -0200
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Et_selskab_af_danske_kunstnere_i_Rom.jpg
> is this offensive?
>
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I would assume we would discuss it as we are now.
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 6:58 AM, Giovanni P <fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> If I declare myself offended (for no reason, because there is absolutely
> >> no
> >> reason to be offended by the present logo) by the next logo you come up
> >> with, will you change it?
> >>
> >> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > > It may not offend you, but apparently it offends some people. This
> >> is a
> >> > > bad thing for a logo. I think this is why it is rare for the human
> >> > figure
> >> > > to be common in most logos. Most keep logos very simple.
> >> >
> >> > There are 7 billion people on Earth - you'll never fit them all.
> >> > Let's move away from abstract angry offended people to concrete ones
> >> > with their own arguments why they thought that logo hits them and
> >> > discuss their problem personally. Anyone around? Joan?
> >> > Otherwise this is counterproductive discussion about edge cases which
> >> > will never happens.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > ,,,^..^,,,
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>
>