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Posted to dev@subversion.apache.org by "Brent R. Matzelle" <bm...@yahoo.com> on 2002/07/24 14:47:56 UTC
The Subversion GUI Issue
Hello Everyone,
I would like to again bring up the topic of a Subversion GUI. I know
that for most of you the leagues of bug reporting is the top priority
right now but I know that it must be brought up again.
The fact is Subversion will not get half the support it deserves if
there is not a strong GUI client for it. Convince your boss to
change from Visual Source Safe and the familiarity of its GUI to
svn.exe? Not likely that will happen in anyone's lifetime.
I suppose the whole reason for my post is to organize some strong
support for a (single?) Subversion GUI of some kind. I know that
many of you are *nix guys and would probably like to avoid the issue
all together. I am a Linux guy but I am stuck in the Windows world
just like the majority of people so I have no choice on this matter.
I would prefer it if several of us would make a decision to work on
the same GUI client so that effort has the advantage of development
by numbers. Right now I cannot tell where it's going.
It would be my preference that this GUI follow the footsteps of the
entire Subversion project and be cross-platform. I noticed that
there were several old threads on this list about GUI programs in the
past. Right now it there are separate clients written in Visual
Basic, MFC, and wxWindows. Of these the only one that is non-Windows
and cross-platform is wxWindows. I just got a copy of the source code
for that project and I have been having a devil of a time linking it
with libsvn_client. I already sent out two requests to this list and
no one has responded about how I might fix it. I even tried out
WinSVN, the Visual Basic version and that would not run even load in
the IDE. So all in all these efforts appear to be coming up short.
Best regards,
Brent
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Re: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@collab.net>.
"Brent R. Matzelle" <bm...@yahoo.com> writes:
> Right now it there are separate clients written in Visual Basic,
> MFC, and wxWindows.
There's also a GUI started for GNOME 2.0, but the author hasn't shown
it to the public yet.
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Re: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by Alexander Mueller <al...@littleblue.de>.
Brent R. Matzelle wrote:
>--- Alexander Mueller <al...@littleblue.de> wrote:
>
>
>>So I searched for native alternatives like using a C++ cross
>>platform
>>framework. Tried FLTK. But this is ugly. Then i found wxWindows and
>>though "WOAAA". Looked great and seemed to be in active
>>development.
>>
>>
>
>I agree, wxWindows is very impressive. TortoiseCVS is written in
>wxWindows.
>
>
>
>>One could ask why invent the wheel again and again, since there are
>>such great GUI clients like WinCvs and MacCvs. But, the fact is,
>>they arent great clients form a developpers point of view:
>>- there is not a cross platform framework, so a lot of code
>> is very very platform specific like the windows frontend
>> being and mfc application
>>- WinCvs is very CVS specific and there is a lot of tweaking
>> to connect cvs to WinCvs
>>- I got the feeling the amount of code in WinCVS got so plenty,
>> developpers lost track of concepts or ideas. So each time
>> there is a new release WinCvs gets slower and slower caused
>> by filesystem rescans and updates. Maybe they say,
>> modern PCs are fast enough so this is no issue.
>>
>>All of this lead to the wish to build a SVN GUI from scratch
>>(codename "rapidsvn") with following features:
>>- C++
>>- cross platform
>>- using modern concepts like Model-View-Controller to represent
>> the subversion tree and states.
>>
>>What do you people think?
>>
>>
>
>I think that this is a very good idea. I have been trying to do
>something like this with Paul Marculescu's wxWindows client.
>
>Brent
>
>
Great! Do you have any code that has progressed from the original code?
Alex
Re: OS X viability?
Posted by Hamilton Link <he...@sandia.gov>.
Thanks, that's great news. Possibly
http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk/PORTING should be brought up to
date for OS X.
hamilton
Garrett Rooney wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 02:21:06PM -0600, Hamilton Link wrote:
> > If I wanted to build a subversion server on OS X (v10.1.5), could I?
> > What about the client? If not, is there a schedule for an OS X port?
>
> works fine. i do a fair amount of my subversion development on my ibook.
>
> i installed everything required from source, but i believe there may
> also be fink packags for most of what you need.
>
> -garrett
>
> --
> garrett rooney Remember, any design flaw you're
> rooneg@electricjellyfish.net sufficiently snide about becomes
> http://electricjellyfish.net/ a feature. -- Dan Sugalski
>
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Re: OS X viability?
Posted by Garrett Rooney <ro...@electricjellyfish.net>.
On Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 02:22:28PM -0700, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 04:24:42PM -0400, Garrett Rooney wrote:
> > works fine. i do a fair amount of my subversion development on my ibook.
>
> I have nothing but problems checking out stuff with SVN on OS X
> (client-only). The SVN process becomes wedged. I can't debug
> or attach to the process. Even with gdb attached before running
> svn, I still can't catch it.
>
> Have you ever seen this? (I've posted details about this before
> to dev@svn.) -- justin
actually, i have seen this once or twice, but never reproducably. it
will happen for a few tries, then i walk away from it and try again
later and it just works.
i'll try playing with it later tonight and see if i can make it happen
again.
-garrett
--
garrett rooney Remember, any design flaw you're
rooneg@electricjellyfish.net sufficiently snide about becomes
http://electricjellyfish.net/ a feature. -- Dan Sugalski
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Re: OS X viability?
Posted by Nicholas Riley <nj...@uiuc.edu>.
On Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 02:22:28PM -0700, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 04:24:42PM -0400, Garrett Rooney wrote:
> > works fine. i do a fair amount of my subversion development on my ibook.
>
> I have nothing but problems checking out stuff with SVN on OS X
> (client-only). The SVN process becomes wedged. I can't debug
> or attach to the process. Even with gdb attached before running
> svn, I still can't catch it.
Try using Sampler.app or the command-line 'sample' tool, you can often
get stack information from a process even if it doesn't let you attach
to it.
--
=Nicholas Riley <nj...@uiuc.edu> | <http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/njriley>
Pablo Research Group, Department of Computer Science and
Medical Scholars Program, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
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Re: OS X viability?
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 04:24:42PM -0400, Garrett Rooney wrote:
> works fine. i do a fair amount of my subversion development on my ibook.
I have nothing but problems checking out stuff with SVN on OS X
(client-only). The SVN process becomes wedged. I can't debug
or attach to the process. Even with gdb attached before running
svn, I still can't catch it.
Have you ever seen this? (I've posted details about this before
to dev@svn.) -- justin
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Re: OS X viability?
Posted by Garrett Rooney <ro...@electricjellyfish.net>.
On Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 02:21:06PM -0600, Hamilton Link wrote:
> If I wanted to build a subversion server on OS X (v10.1.5), could I?
> What about the client? If not, is there a schedule for an OS X port?
works fine. i do a fair amount of my subversion development on my ibook.
i installed everything required from source, but i believe there may
also be fink packags for most of what you need.
-garrett
--
garrett rooney Remember, any design flaw you're
rooneg@electricjellyfish.net sufficiently snide about becomes
http://electricjellyfish.net/ a feature. -- Dan Sugalski
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OS X viability?
Posted by Hamilton Link <he...@sandia.gov>.
If I wanted to build a subversion server on OS X (v10.1.5), could I?
What about the client? If not, is there a schedule for an OS X port?
I'm going to set everything up on my RedHat box, but it'd mean upgrading
my machine from ancient RH to bleeding-edge RH and I don't have the
energy for it today (soon, just not today).
h
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Re: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by Paul Marculescu <pa...@p16.pub.ro>.
Hi there!
I do not understand you, people.
I was working for a while on this client for subversion, using wxwindows
(which by the way, is really great) and I sent an email about this on
this list on 3rd of July and the first answer was hardly on 24th July. I
know there are a lot of problems with subversion itself, but if you
don't have a visual client, you will not succeed as expected.
So, I made a client that works (or at least worked with r2301, but it
can easily be updated) and it is portable (written with wxwindows and
apr) and I didn't see any other client around. Why don't you want to
extend it, to use the code already written?! It can be easily (I think)
updated to build a client like TortoiseCVS (for those who prefer it ...
I don't).
The only one interested, as I noticed, was Brent Matzelle, which
encountered some difficulties in building the source code, but I
exchanged some emails with him and the problem seemed to be something
about apr libraries. I hope he found the solution.
I would like to stay more involved right now, but I have to work on some
other project at the moment. But, in my opinion, this is what open
source for: I made something, it can easily be extended, some other
people can easily add code to it. So, why don't you?
Best regards,
Paul Marculescu
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RE: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by Daniel Berlin <db...@dberlin.org>.
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002, Brent R. Matzelle wrote:
> --- Barry Scott <ba...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > Personally I'd build the GUI using Python and wxPython. Then
> > use tools to turn the python into images that can be installed
> > and used by the wider public. This would allow windows, unix
> > and Mac to be targeted.
>
> I thought about this as well. You have to love Python ;) One thing
> bothered me about it though. Is the Python svn client binding mature
> enough to handle such an effort?
Um, yes.
The binding is auto-generated, so any bugs are usually bugs in SWIG.
>
> Regards,
>
> Brent
>
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>
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RE: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by "Brent R. Matzelle" <bm...@yahoo.com>.
--- Barry Scott <ba...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Personally I'd build the GUI using Python and wxPython. Then
> use tools to turn the python into images that can be installed
> and used by the wider public. This would allow windows, unix
> and Mac to be targeted.
I thought about this as well. You have to love Python ;) One thing
bothered me about it though. Is the Python svn client binding mature
enough to handle such an effort?
Regards,
Brent
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RE: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by Barry Scott <ba...@ntlworld.com>.
Personally I'd build the GUI using Python and wxPython. Then
use tools to turn the python into images that can be installed
and used by the wider public. This would allow windows, unix
and Mac to be targeted.
My bias is that any GUI tools that are provided must intuitively
support multiple repositories. I'm looking to migrate 60 VSS
databases to Subversion and must have mutiple repository support.
We use a Python/wxPython GUI to drive VSS thru its COM interface
to get such mutliple respository support.
BArry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brent R. Matzelle [mailto:bmatzelle@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 24 July 2002 18:49
> To: dev@subversion.tigris.org
> Subject: Re: The Subversion GUI Issue
>
>
> --- Alexander Mueller <al...@littleblue.de> wrote:
> > So I searched for native alternatives like using a C++ cross
> > platform
> > framework. Tried FLTK. But this is ugly. Then i found wxWindows and
> > though "WOAAA". Looked great and seemed to be in active
> > development.
>
> I agree, wxWindows is very impressive. TortoiseCVS is written in
> wxWindows.
>
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Re: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by "Brent R. Matzelle" <bm...@yahoo.com>.
--- Alexander Mueller <al...@littleblue.de> wrote:
> So I searched for native alternatives like using a C++ cross
> platform
> framework. Tried FLTK. But this is ugly. Then i found wxWindows and
> though "WOAAA". Looked great and seemed to be in active
> development.
I agree, wxWindows is very impressive. TortoiseCVS is written in
wxWindows.
> One could ask why invent the wheel again and again, since there are
> such great GUI clients like WinCvs and MacCvs. But, the fact is,
> they arent great clients form a developpers point of view:
> - there is not a cross platform framework, so a lot of code
> is very very platform specific like the windows frontend
> being and mfc application
> - WinCvs is very CVS specific and there is a lot of tweaking
> to connect cvs to WinCvs
> - I got the feeling the amount of code in WinCVS got so plenty,
> developpers lost track of concepts or ideas. So each time
> there is a new release WinCvs gets slower and slower caused
> by filesystem rescans and updates. Maybe they say,
> modern PCs are fast enough so this is no issue.
>
> All of this lead to the wish to build a SVN GUI from scratch
> (codename "rapidsvn") with following features:
> - C++
> - cross platform
> - using modern concepts like Model-View-Controller to represent
> the subversion tree and states.
>
> What do you people think?
I think that this is a very good idea. I have been trying to do
something like this with Paul Marculescu's wxWindows client.
Brent
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Re: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by Alexander Mueller <al...@littleblue.de>.
Brent R. Matzelle wrote:
>It would be my preference that this GUI follow the footsteps of the
>entire Subversion project and be cross-platform. I noticed that
>there were several old threads on this list about GUI programs in the
>past. Right now it there are separate clients written in Visual
>Basic, MFC, and wxWindows. Of these the only one that is non-Windows
>and cross-platform is wxWindows. I just got a copy of the source code
>for that project and I have been having a devil of a time linking it
>with libsvn_client. I already sent out two requests to this list and
>no one has responded about how I might fix it. I even tried out
>WinSVN, the Visual Basic version and that would not run even load in
>the IDE. So all in all these efforts appear to be coming up short.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Brent
>
>
A couple of months ago I started to implement a Java SVN binding.
The reason for this was to get a cross platform GUI for subversion.
But with Java you do have a couple of disadvantages:
* very slow
* big ressource overhead
* binding to native libraries is pretty difficult (even with SWIG)
So I searched for native alternatives like using a C++ cross platform
framework. Tried FLTK. But this is ugly. Then i found wxWindows and
though "WOAAA". Looked great and seemed to be in active development.
One could ask why invent the wheel again and again, since there are
such great GUI clients like WinCvs and MacCvs. But, the fact is,
they arent great clients form a developpers point of view:
- there is not a cross platform framework, so a lot of code
is very very platform specific like the windows frontend
being and mfc application
- WinCvs is very CVS specific and there is a lot of tweaking
to connect cvs to WinCvs
- I got the feeling the amount of code in WinCVS got so plenty,
developpers lost track of concepts or ideas. So each time
there is a new release WinCvs gets slower and slower caused
by filesystem rescans and updates. Maybe they say,
modern PCs are fast enough so this is no issue.
All of this lead to the wish to build a SVN GUI from scratch
(codename "rapidsvn") with following features:
- C++
- cross platform
- using modern concepts like Model-View-Controller to represent
the subversion tree and states.
What do you people think?
Alex
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Re: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by Scott Lamb <sl...@slamb.org>.
Brent R. Matzelle wrote:
> I do not agree with that. I found the TortoiseCVS functionality
> lacking and the integration just an annoyance. WinCVS/VSS gives me
> the functionality and the separation that most people need and expect.
I disagree. That's the point, really - you can't please everyone with a
single project. That's why there are several projects now, and I don't
expect that to change.
--
Scott Lamb
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Re: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by David Waite <ma...@akuma.org>.
Right now I'm concentrating on the GUI portion, since shell extensions
aren't especially easy or intuitive to write. Once this is done, I'll
start requesting feedback on the overall gui design. Hopefully the
actual svn integration will go quickly, since there is already an
existing client library.
For open-source, 'testing' is pretty much what everyone does, and as
soon as it stops breaking Explorer I'll be sure to let people know :-)
Documentation and bug reports will both be welcome.
-David Waite (holding aloft his new 'Visual c++ Windows Shell
Programming' book)
Scott Lamb wrote:
>On Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 09:55:54AM -0600, David Waite wrote:
>
>
>>With or without a demand, I'm already working on a shell-integrated svn
>>client for Windows. :-)
>>
>>
>
>Cool. Is there something the rest of us can do to help? I'm afraid I
>haven't done much Win32 programming, but at the very least I do testing
>or maybe write documentation.
>
>
>
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Re: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by Scott Lamb <sl...@slamb.org>.
On Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 09:55:54AM -0600, David Waite wrote:
> With or without a demand, I'm already working on a shell-integrated svn
> client for Windows. :-)
Cool. Is there something the rest of us can do to help? I'm afraid I
haven't done much Win32 programming, but at the very least I do testing
or maybe write documentation.
--
Scott Lamb
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Re: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by "Glenn A. Thompson" <gt...@cdr.net>.
> With or without a demand, I'm already working on a shell-integrated svn
> client for Windows. :-)
Way Cool!
gat
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Re: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by David Waite <ma...@akuma.org>.
Sander Striker wrote:
>>--- Scott Lamb <sl...@slamb.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The clients I'd really like to see are ones similar to TortoiseCVS
>>>and
>>>Cervisia. If you've never used them, they integrate with their
>>>platform's shell (Windows Explorer and KDE fm, respectively). That
>>>kind
>>>of integration requires they be platform-specific. I think a
>>>single,
>>>cross-platform client would produce a client I wouldn't want to use
>>>anywhere.
>>>
>>>
>>I do not agree with that. I found the TortoiseCVS functionality
>>lacking and the integration just an annoyance. WinCVS/VSS gives me
>>the functionality and the separation that most people need and
>>expect.
>>
>>
>
>That is a personal opinion. I think there is demand for both.
>
>
With or without a demand, I'm already working on a shell-integrated svn
client for Windows. :-)
-David Waite
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RE: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Brent R. Matzelle [mailto:bmatzelle@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 24 July 2002 17:40
> --- Scott Lamb <sl...@slamb.org> wrote:
>> The clients I'd really like to see are ones similar to TortoiseCVS
>> and
>> Cervisia. If you've never used them, they integrate with their
>> platform's shell (Windows Explorer and KDE fm, respectively). That
>> kind
>> of integration requires they be platform-specific. I think a
>> single,
>> cross-platform client would produce a client I wouldn't want to use
>> anywhere.
>
> I do not agree with that. I found the TortoiseCVS functionality
> lacking and the integration just an annoyance. WinCVS/VSS gives me
> the functionality and the separation that most people need and
> expect.
That is a personal opinion. I think there is demand for both.
Sander
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Re: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by "Brent R. Matzelle" <bm...@yahoo.com>.
--- Scott Lamb <sl...@slamb.org> wrote:
> The clients I'd really like to see are ones similar to TortoiseCVS
> and
> Cervisia. If you've never used them, they integrate with their
> platform's shell (Windows Explorer and KDE fm, respectively). That
> kind
> of integration requires they be platform-specific. I think a
> single,
> cross-platform client would produce a client I wouldn't want to use
> anywhere.
I do not agree with that. I found the TortoiseCVS functionality
lacking and the integration just an annoyance. WinCVS/VSS gives me
the functionality and the separation that most people need and
expect.
Brent
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Re: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by Scott Lamb <sl...@slamb.org>.
Brent R. Matzelle wrote:
> It would be my preference that this GUI follow the footsteps of the
> entire Subversion project and be cross-platform. I noticed that there
> were several old threads on this list about GUI programs in the past.
> Right now it there are separate clients written in Visual Basic, MFC,
> and wxWindows.
The clients I'd really like to see are ones similar to TortoiseCVS and
Cervisia. If you've never used them, they integrate with their
platform's shell (Windows Explorer and KDE fm, respectively). That kind
of integration requires they be platform-specific. I think a single,
cross-platform client would produce a client I wouldn't want to use
anywhere.
--
Scott Lamb
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Re: The Subversion GUI Issue
Posted by David Summers <da...@summersoft.fay.ar.us>.
Last January I took the current WinCVS stuff and slowly began converting
over to Subversion....I haven't had time to work on it since then but I
got about 40 revisions in to it. As soon as I figure out my apache 2.0.40
server problem with the shared memory then you can take a look at it at
the http://summersoft.fay.ar.us:81/ URL. It is cross platform and will
compile on Linux/Unix, Windows, and MAC.
- David Summers
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002, Brent R. Matzelle wrote:
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I would like to again bring up the topic of a Subversion GUI. I know
> that for most of you the leagues of bug reporting is the top priority
> right now but I know that it must be brought up again.
>
> The fact is Subversion will not get half the support it deserves if
> there is not a strong GUI client for it. Convince your boss to
> change from Visual Source Safe and the familiarity of its GUI to
> svn.exe? Not likely that will happen in anyone's lifetime.
>
> I suppose the whole reason for my post is to organize some strong
> support for a (single?) Subversion GUI of some kind. I know that
> many of you are *nix guys and would probably like to avoid the issue
> all together. I am a Linux guy but I am stuck in the Windows world
> just like the majority of people so I have no choice on this matter.
> I would prefer it if several of us would make a decision to work on
> the same GUI client so that effort has the advantage of development
> by numbers. Right now I cannot tell where it's going.
>
> It would be my preference that this GUI follow the footsteps of the
> entire Subversion project and be cross-platform. I noticed that
> there were several old threads on this list about GUI programs in the
> past. Right now it there are separate clients written in Visual
> Basic, MFC, and wxWindows. Of these the only one that is non-Windows
> and cross-platform is wxWindows. I just got a copy of the source code
> for that project and I have been having a devil of a time linking it
> with libsvn_client. I already sent out two requests to this list and
> no one has responded about how I might fix it. I even tried out
> WinSVN, the Visual Basic version and that would not run even load in
> the IDE. So all in all these efforts appear to be coming up short.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Brent
>
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David Wayne Summers "Linux: Because reboots are for upgrades!"
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