Re: Free Market versus Central Planning (was Re: New Icons)

[Shi Jinghai <sh...@langhua.org>]

That's great, David. Glad to know we'll have a garden soon.

On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 10:00 -0700, David E Jones wrote:

> My goal is to split the community to various sub-communities involved in different projects which make up an ecosystem of projects based on the same framework and data model, as opposed to a single project for everything. This will reduce conflict and encourage people to try different ideas with end-users in the position to choose between them based on what works best for them.
> 
> A distributed community, as opposed to a centralized community, would allow many more people to get involved with much less conflict than our current rather small community. The point is not to exclude people or get rid of a community, the point is to enable more people to get involved and move it more towards a "free market" structure as opposed to the current "central planning" type of structure that OFBiz operates under.
> 
> -David
> 

Re: Free Market versus Central Planning (was Re: New Icons)

[David E Jones <de...@me.com>]

It's interesting that you wrote this Ruth. I heard the same thing from a client recently, ie that they hadn't heard my name until after using OFBiz in their company for a couple of years.

After that comment (a couple of weeks ago) I thought about it a bit and in a way I'd like to think this is success on my part in trying to build the community by not emphasizing my role, which was a priority for me for a while... now I guess I don't care so much and I don't know that weakening my role really ever did anything to help grow the community. I always thought it would give others more opportunities to take on major roles in the project, but who knows...

More realistically, I think this is a factor of how the ASF works combined with the long history of OFBiz. The ASF doesn't really allow (and definitely doesn't encourage) prominently recognizing individuals, especially individuals with commercial concerns (I suppose it is more virtuous to use money from students or from grants (ie money taken non-voluntarily from unfortunate "citizens") than the try to operate a commercial concern based on open source or free software). Because of ASF policy you have to look pretty hard to even figure out who the committers and PMC members are, and people who just watch the mailing list or use the software rarely know who is in these groups.

The long history of OFBiz also makes this tricky. Many of those who contributed a lot early on in the build-out of the project (especially over the first 7-8 years, and even more in the first 5-6 years) are not as active on the mailing lists and in commits right now (and over the last couple of years). That's just the nature of the project, and will probably become even more that way over time, especially combined with the ASF policy factor I mentioned above.

On the topic of the ASF, the policies I also find increasingly distasteful. The foundation is growing, which is good, but along with that growth the sheer volume of policies has mushroomed, to the point (IMO) of making it a less interesting means to distribute ones free/open software efforts. It's still a great foundation, but if it isn't as attractive to developers, and the more they add policies that make things difficult or unattractive to developers, how long will that last?

-David


On May 3, 2011, at 9:20 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> How true.
> But, I would suggest that in this case, the phenomena that I described has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with ignorance.
> Best Regards,
> Ruth
> 
> On 5/3/11 10:28 AM, Jacopo Cappellato wrote:
>> On May 3, 2011, at 3:39 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>> 
>>> FYI:  You wrote: "It's not as if I'm an outsider taking pot-shots..." You would be surprised, as I was, at the number of people using OFBiz who do not know who you are or about your association with the project. I've met many over the last few years. Therefore, in my experience, to many people, with OFBiz interests, you are an "outsider".
>> The fact that people ignore reality, doesn't make it less real.
>> 
>> Jacopo
>> 
>> 

Re: Free Market versus Central Planning (was Re: New Icons)

[Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>]

How true.
But, I would suggest that in this case, the phenomena that I described 
has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with ignorance.
Best Regards,
Ruth

On 5/3/11 10:28 AM, Jacopo Cappellato wrote:
> On May 3, 2011, at 3:39 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>> FYI:  You wrote: "It's not as if I'm an outsider taking pot-shots..." You would be surprised, as I was, at the number of people using OFBiz who do not know who you are or about your association with the project. I've met many over the last few years. Therefore, in my experience, to many people, with OFBiz interests, you are an "outsider".
> The fact that people ignore reality, doesn't make it less real.
>
> Jacopo
>
>

Re: Free Market versus Central Planning (was Re: New Icons)

[Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@hotwaxmedia.com>]

On May 3, 2011, at 3:39 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> FYI:  You wrote: "It's not as if I'm an outsider taking pot-shots..." You would be surprised, as I was, at the number of people using OFBiz who do not know who you are or about your association with the project. I've met many over the last few years. Therefore, in my experience, to many people, with OFBiz interests, you are an "outsider".

The fact that people ignore reality, doesn't make it less real.

Jacopo

Re: Free Market versus Central Planning (was Re: New Icons)

[Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>]

David:
This is the first time I think I've seen you write something positive 
about OFBiz: "I also think OFBiz is great". A step in the right 
direction! Thank you for stating that.

I understand completely your motivation and I'm empathetic to your 
position. I'm only asking that you don't bash OFBiz at the expense of 
any other project. If your latest endeavor is the answer to all your 
ills (and OFBiz's), then by all means pursue it with all the passion and 
commitment that you have.

FYI:  You wrote: "It's not as if I'm an outsider taking pot-shots..." 
You would be surprised, as I was, at the number of people using OFBiz 
who do not know who you are or about your association with the project. 
I've met many over the last few years. Therefore, in my experience, to 
many people, with OFBiz interests, you are an "outsider".

Best Regards,
Ruth

On 5/3/11 9:05 AM, Tim Ruppert wrote:
> Well said David.  I think that the investment you made to OFBiz pre-Moqui was astounding, but what you've created in Moqui has the chance to save the project and keep it going for the _next_ 10 years.  Thank you for being proactive enough and caring enough to get out in front of the community even when at times it's not able to see that a change is needed.
>
> My two cents.
>
> Cheers,
> Ruppert
>
> On May 2, 2011, at 10:22 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>
>> Ruth,
>>
>> It's not as if I'm an outsider taking pot-shots at something from a distance. I also think OFBiz is great, but after working with it for a decade I'm confident I can do better, and I can confidently say the same about many in the OFBiz community. We can do better, and what's more: we want to.
>>
>> Maybe you're not familiar with the pattern of my comments, it is the pattern of retrospection and introspection and open communication about a creation and a long-term effort. It's what happens when someone has so thoroughly explored and experienced and tried to improve something that clear patterns of success and failure have emerged.
>>
>> Consider my efforts on Moqui and related projects to be my attempt at atonement for the many sins laid at my feet over my years with OFBiz that now fetter my soul and make further progress difficult.
>>
>> If you've never experienced anything of the sort, I challenge you to stretch yourself and work to create something great. Take on something that is so beyond you that you can't see the other side, and keep pushing for it after having to give up and start over a time or two. Then you'll understand.
>>
>> -David
>>
>>
>> On May 2, 2011, at 7:26 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/2/11 9:23 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>>>> On 3/05/2011, at 12:51 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> List:
>>>>> Why is it that David is allowed to advertise continuously about his latest pet project - that has nothing to do with OFBiz - on this mailing list and others, such as myself can't even mention a resource dedicated entirely to OFBiz, that many have found useful, (MyOFBiz.com http://www.myofbiz.com) without risk of severe rebuke?
>>>> The only time I think I've rebuked you is when you did nothing to engage the conversation and instead just wrote something along the lines of "you'll find the answer to that question at my website!".  I don't think anyone has an issue with the promotion of relevant websites, companies, projects, etc. but I don't personally think it should ever be the primary purpose of sending a message to these lists.  Moqui isn't just a random pet project anyway, it is a potential replacement for the OFBiz framework created by one of the founders of OFBiz, if that's not worthy of discussion I don't know what would be.
>>>>
>>> IMO, it is one thing to talk about replacing the framework. It is quite another to continually harp on what is wrong with OFBiz.
>>>>> Of course that was a rhetorical question. I know the answer. But I will say this: As an outsider, what I see going on here is seriously wrong...The constant innuendo that there is something amiss with OFBiz undermines the public's faith in the quality and value proposition of this project.
>>>> That seems pretty hypocritical considering you've spent a fair amount of time in the past criticizing the most active members of the community and spreading FUD about the way this project is managed.  But at the end of the day there is something wrong and ignoring that will achieve nothing, this is the dev list and is the most appropriate place to discuss these development related issues.
>>> Really? What, in your esteemed opinion is wrong? With OFBiz that is. And not me. (I already know that latter.)
>>>>> Despite all the differences of all the OFBiz community members, OFBiz still remains the best open source - possibly any source - ERP around. Lets not forget that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Although I have no authority to request this I'm asking that David please stop using this list as his "dumping" ground. David, if you do not have positive OFBiz commentary, please don't post.
>>>> Nobody has any authority here other than the respect one gains through what the ASF calls a "meritorcracy" (government by merit), and there really can't be any doubt that David has well and truly earned the right to say whatever he damn well pleases (in my opinion).  David's spent more time interacting with this community than anyone else and if he's learnt something from that then I for one want to hear it.
>>>>
>>> Well, if your aim is to destroy OFBiz in favor of Moqui or any other "the grass is always greener" solution, then by all means bash away and encourage David and everyone to join the fray.
>>>>> BTW, anyone wanting to help me make MyOFBiz.com a better resource for the OFBiz community, please feel free to contact me at ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/2/11 7:46 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>> In fact, we have a garden now... it's just looking for gardeners.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Moqui Framework 1.0 is feature-complete and in beta. The Mantle data model (UDM) is in an initially complete state (except for seed data which I'm still working on), and is at a point where feedback is the most important next step (with various improvements to it already planned as well).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In any case, framework add-ons and applications are welcome, and I've even solicited creation of such things in order to help test the framework and give people opportunities to experience the framework and give feedback.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you create something great, let me know and I'll list it here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.moqui.org/crust.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe even Apache OFBiz will be there at some point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 9:34 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's great, David. Glad to know we'll have a garden soon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 10:00 -0700, David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My goal is to split the community to various sub-communities involved in different projects which make up an ecosystem of projects based on the same framework and data model, as opposed to a single project for everything. This will reduce conflict and encourage people to try different ideas with end-users in the position to choose between them based on what works best for them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A distributed community, as opposed to a centralized community, would allow many more people to get involved with much less conflict than our current rather small community. The point is not to exclude people or get rid of a community, the point is to enable more people to get involved and move it more towards a "free market" structure as opposed to the current "central planning" type of structure that OFBiz operates under.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>>
>

Re: Free Market versus Central Planning (was Re: New Icons)

[Tim Ruppert <ti...@hotwaxmedia.com>]

Well said David.  I think that the investment you made to OFBiz pre-Moqui was astounding, but what you've created in Moqui has the chance to save the project and keep it going for the _next_ 10 years.  Thank you for being proactive enough and caring enough to get out in front of the community even when at times it's not able to see that a change is needed.

My two cents.

Cheers,
Ruppert

On May 2, 2011, at 10:22 PM, David E Jones wrote:

> 
> Ruth,
> 
> It's not as if I'm an outsider taking pot-shots at something from a distance. I also think OFBiz is great, but after working with it for a decade I'm confident I can do better, and I can confidently say the same about many in the OFBiz community. We can do better, and what's more: we want to.
> 
> Maybe you're not familiar with the pattern of my comments, it is the pattern of retrospection and introspection and open communication about a creation and a long-term effort. It's what happens when someone has so thoroughly explored and experienced and tried to improve something that clear patterns of success and failure have emerged.
> 
> Consider my efforts on Moqui and related projects to be my attempt at atonement for the many sins laid at my feet over my years with OFBiz that now fetter my soul and make further progress difficult.
> 
> If you've never experienced anything of the sort, I challenge you to stretch yourself and work to create something great. Take on something that is so beyond you that you can't see the other side, and keep pushing for it after having to give up and start over a time or two. Then you'll understand.
> 
> -David
> 
> 
> On May 2, 2011, at 7:26 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On 5/2/11 9:23 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>>> On 3/05/2011, at 12:51 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>> 
>>>> List:
>>>> Why is it that David is allowed to advertise continuously about his latest pet project - that has nothing to do with OFBiz - on this mailing list and others, such as myself can't even mention a resource dedicated entirely to OFBiz, that many have found useful, (MyOFBiz.com http://www.myofbiz.com) without risk of severe rebuke?
>>> The only time I think I've rebuked you is when you did nothing to engage the conversation and instead just wrote something along the lines of "you'll find the answer to that question at my website!".  I don't think anyone has an issue with the promotion of relevant websites, companies, projects, etc. but I don't personally think it should ever be the primary purpose of sending a message to these lists.  Moqui isn't just a random pet project anyway, it is a potential replacement for the OFBiz framework created by one of the founders of OFBiz, if that's not worthy of discussion I don't know what would be.
>>> 
>> IMO, it is one thing to talk about replacing the framework. It is quite another to continually harp on what is wrong with OFBiz.
>>>> Of course that was a rhetorical question. I know the answer. But I will say this: As an outsider, what I see going on here is seriously wrong...The constant innuendo that there is something amiss with OFBiz undermines the public's faith in the quality and value proposition of this project.
>>> That seems pretty hypocritical considering you've spent a fair amount of time in the past criticizing the most active members of the community and spreading FUD about the way this project is managed.  But at the end of the day there is something wrong and ignoring that will achieve nothing, this is the dev list and is the most appropriate place to discuss these development related issues.
>> Really? What, in your esteemed opinion is wrong? With OFBiz that is. And not me. (I already know that latter.)
>>>> Despite all the differences of all the OFBiz community members, OFBiz still remains the best open source - possibly any source - ERP around. Lets not forget that.
>>>> 
>>>> Although I have no authority to request this I'm asking that David please stop using this list as his "dumping" ground. David, if you do not have positive OFBiz commentary, please don't post.
>>> Nobody has any authority here other than the respect one gains through what the ASF calls a "meritorcracy" (government by merit), and there really can't be any doubt that David has well and truly earned the right to say whatever he damn well pleases (in my opinion).  David's spent more time interacting with this community than anyone else and if he's learnt something from that then I for one want to hear it.
>>> 
>> Well, if your aim is to destroy OFBiz in favor of Moqui or any other "the grass is always greener" solution, then by all means bash away and encourage David and everyone to join the fray.
>>>> BTW, anyone wanting to help me make MyOFBiz.com a better resource for the OFBiz community, please feel free to contact me at ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>> 
>>>> On 5/2/11 7:46 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>>>> In fact, we have a garden now... it's just looking for gardeners.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Moqui Framework 1.0 is feature-complete and in beta. The Mantle data model (UDM) is in an initially complete state (except for seed data which I'm still working on), and is at a point where feedback is the most important next step (with various improvements to it already planned as well).
>>>>> 
>>>>> In any case, framework add-ons and applications are welcome, and I've even solicited creation of such things in order to help test the framework and give people opportunities to experience the framework and give feedback.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you create something great, let me know and I'll list it here:
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.moqui.org/crust.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> Maybe even Apache OFBiz will be there at some point.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -David
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 9:34 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> That's great, David. Glad to know we'll have a garden soon.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 10:00 -0700, David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My goal is to split the community to various sub-communities involved in different projects which make up an ecosystem of projects based on the same framework and data model, as opposed to a single project for everything. This will reduce conflict and encourage people to try different ideas with end-users in the position to choose between them based on what works best for them.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> A distributed community, as opposed to a centralized community, would allow many more people to get involved with much less conflict than our current rather small community. The point is not to exclude people or get rid of a community, the point is to enable more people to get involved and move it more towards a "free market" structure as opposed to the current "central planning" type of structure that OFBiz operates under.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>> 
> 

Re: Free Market versus Central Planning (was Re: New Icons)

[David E Jones <de...@me.com>]

Ruth,

It's not as if I'm an outsider taking pot-shots at something from a distance. I also think OFBiz is great, but after working with it for a decade I'm confident I can do better, and I can confidently say the same about many in the OFBiz community. We can do better, and what's more: we want to.

Maybe you're not familiar with the pattern of my comments, it is the pattern of retrospection and introspection and open communication about a creation and a long-term effort. It's what happens when someone has so thoroughly explored and experienced and tried to improve something that clear patterns of success and failure have emerged.

Consider my efforts on Moqui and related projects to be my attempt at atonement for the many sins laid at my feet over my years with OFBiz that now fetter my soul and make further progress difficult.

If you've never experienced anything of the sort, I challenge you to stretch yourself and work to create something great. Take on something that is so beyond you that you can't see the other side, and keep pushing for it after having to give up and start over a time or two. Then you'll understand.

-David


On May 2, 2011, at 7:26 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> 
> On 5/2/11 9:23 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>> On 3/05/2011, at 12:51 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>> 
>>> List:
>>> Why is it that David is allowed to advertise continuously about his latest pet project - that has nothing to do with OFBiz - on this mailing list and others, such as myself can't even mention a resource dedicated entirely to OFBiz, that many have found useful, (MyOFBiz.com http://www.myofbiz.com) without risk of severe rebuke?
>> The only time I think I've rebuked you is when you did nothing to engage the conversation and instead just wrote something along the lines of "you'll find the answer to that question at my website!".  I don't think anyone has an issue with the promotion of relevant websites, companies, projects, etc. but I don't personally think it should ever be the primary purpose of sending a message to these lists.  Moqui isn't just a random pet project anyway, it is a potential replacement for the OFBiz framework created by one of the founders of OFBiz, if that's not worthy of discussion I don't know what would be.
>> 
> IMO, it is one thing to talk about replacing the framework. It is quite another to continually harp on what is wrong with OFBiz.
>>> Of course that was a rhetorical question. I know the answer. But I will say this: As an outsider, what I see going on here is seriously wrong...The constant innuendo that there is something amiss with OFBiz undermines the public's faith in the quality and value proposition of this project.
>> That seems pretty hypocritical considering you've spent a fair amount of time in the past criticizing the most active members of the community and spreading FUD about the way this project is managed.  But at the end of the day there is something wrong and ignoring that will achieve nothing, this is the dev list and is the most appropriate place to discuss these development related issues.
> Really? What, in your esteemed opinion is wrong? With OFBiz that is. And not me. (I already know that latter.)
>>> Despite all the differences of all the OFBiz community members, OFBiz still remains the best open source - possibly any source - ERP around. Lets not forget that.
>>> 
>>> Although I have no authority to request this I'm asking that David please stop using this list as his "dumping" ground. David, if you do not have positive OFBiz commentary, please don't post.
>> Nobody has any authority here other than the respect one gains through what the ASF calls a "meritorcracy" (government by merit), and there really can't be any doubt that David has well and truly earned the right to say whatever he damn well pleases (in my opinion).  David's spent more time interacting with this community than anyone else and if he's learnt something from that then I for one want to hear it.
>> 
> Well, if your aim is to destroy OFBiz in favor of Moqui or any other "the grass is always greener" solution, then by all means bash away and encourage David and everyone to join the fray.
>>> BTW, anyone wanting to help me make MyOFBiz.com a better resource for the OFBiz community, please feel free to contact me at ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>> 
>>> On 5/2/11 7:46 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>>> In fact, we have a garden now... it's just looking for gardeners.
>>>> 
>>>> Moqui Framework 1.0 is feature-complete and in beta. The Mantle data model (UDM) is in an initially complete state (except for seed data which I'm still working on), and is at a point where feedback is the most important next step (with various improvements to it already planned as well).
>>>> 
>>>> In any case, framework add-ons and applications are welcome, and I've even solicited creation of such things in order to help test the framework and give people opportunities to experience the framework and give feedback.
>>>> 
>>>> If you create something great, let me know and I'll list it here:
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.moqui.org/crust.html
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe even Apache OFBiz will be there at some point.
>>>> 
>>>> -David
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 9:34 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> That's great, David. Glad to know we'll have a garden soon.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 10:00 -0700, David E Jones wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> My goal is to split the community to various sub-communities involved in different projects which make up an ecosystem of projects based on the same framework and data model, as opposed to a single project for everything. This will reduce conflict and encourage people to try different ideas with end-users in the position to choose between them based on what works best for them.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> A distributed community, as opposed to a centralized community, would allow many more people to get involved with much less conflict than our current rather small community. The point is not to exclude people or get rid of a community, the point is to enable more people to get involved and move it more towards a "free market" structure as opposed to the current "central planning" type of structure that OFBiz operates under.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>> 

Re: Free Market versus Central Planning (was Re: New Icons)

[Scott Gray <sc...@hotwaxmedia.com>]

On 3/05/2011, at 2:26 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> On 5/2/11 9:23 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>> On 3/05/2011, at 12:51 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>> 
>>> List:
>>> Why is it that David is allowed to advertise continuously about his latest pet project - that has nothing to do with OFBiz - on this mailing list and others, such as myself can't even mention a resource dedicated entirely to OFBiz, that many have found useful, (MyOFBiz.com http://www.myofbiz.com) without risk of severe rebuke?
>> The only time I think I've rebuked you is when you did nothing to engage the conversation and instead just wrote something along the lines of "you'll find the answer to that question at my website!".  I don't think anyone has an issue with the promotion of relevant websites, companies, projects, etc. but I don't personally think it should ever be the primary purpose of sending a message to these lists.  Moqui isn't just a random pet project anyway, it is a potential replacement for the OFBiz framework created by one of the founders of OFBiz, if that's not worthy of discussion I don't know what would be.
>> 
> IMO, it is one thing to talk about replacing the framework. It is quite another to continually harp on what is wrong with OFBiz.
>>> Of course that was a rhetorical question. I know the answer. But I will say this: As an outsider, what I see going on here is seriously wrong...The constant innuendo that there is something amiss with OFBiz undermines the public's faith in the quality and value proposition of this project.
>> That seems pretty hypocritical considering you've spent a fair amount of time in the past criticizing the most active members of the community and spreading FUD about the way this project is managed.  But at the end of the day there is something wrong and ignoring that will achieve nothing, this is the dev list and is the most appropriate place to discuss these development related issues.
> 
> Really? What, in your esteemed opinion is wrong? With OFBiz that is. And not me. (I already know that latter.)

Providing an answer to that would require more time than I willing to give you and I've already spent enough time articulating my concerns over the past year so I'm not going to do that again now. You've obviously read plenty of criticism or you wouldn't have written this message so just know that I share most if not all of David's concerns.

>>> Despite all the differences of all the OFBiz community members, OFBiz still remains the best open source - possibly any source - ERP around. Lets not forget that.
>>> 
>>> Although I have no authority to request this I'm asking that David please stop using this list as his "dumping" ground. David, if you do not have positive OFBiz commentary, please don't post.
>> Nobody has any authority here other than the respect one gains through what the ASF calls a "meritorcracy" (government by merit), and there really can't be any doubt that David has well and truly earned the right to say whatever he damn well pleases (in my opinion).  David's spent more time interacting with this community than anyone else and if he's learnt something from that then I for one want to hear it.
>> 
> Well, if your aim is to destroy OFBiz in favor of Moqui or any other "the grass is always greener" solution, then by all means bash away and encourage David and everyone to join the fray.

This is what I mean by your tendency to spread FUD, no one is trying to destroy OFBiz and the reality is quite the opposite.

>>> BTW, anyone wanting to help me make MyOFBiz.com a better resource for the OFBiz community, please feel free to contact me at ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>> 
>>> On 5/2/11 7:46 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>>> In fact, we have a garden now... it's just looking for gardeners.
>>>> 
>>>> Moqui Framework 1.0 is feature-complete and in beta. The Mantle data model (UDM) is in an initially complete state (except for seed data which I'm still working on), and is at a point where feedback is the most important next step (with various improvements to it already planned as well).
>>>> 
>>>> In any case, framework add-ons and applications are welcome, and I've even solicited creation of such things in order to help test the framework and give people opportunities to experience the framework and give feedback.
>>>> 
>>>> If you create something great, let me know and I'll list it here:
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.moqui.org/crust.html
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe even Apache OFBiz will be there at some point.
>>>> 
>>>> -David
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 9:34 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> That's great, David. Glad to know we'll have a garden soon.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 10:00 -0700, David E Jones wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> My goal is to split the community to various sub-communities involved in different projects which make up an ecosystem of projects based on the same framework and data model, as opposed to a single project for everything. This will reduce conflict and encourage people to try different ideas with end-users in the position to choose between them based on what works best for them.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> A distributed community, as opposed to a centralized community, would allow many more people to get involved with much less conflict than our current rather small community. The point is not to exclude people or get rid of a community, the point is to enable more people to get involved and move it more towards a "free market" structure as opposed to the current "central planning" type of structure that OFBiz operates under.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>> 

Re: Free Market versus Central Planning (was Re: New Icons)

[Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>]

On 5/2/11 9:23 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
> On 3/05/2011, at 12:51 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>> List:
>> Why is it that David is allowed to advertise continuously about his latest pet project - that has nothing to do with OFBiz - on this mailing list and others, such as myself can't even mention a resource dedicated entirely to OFBiz, that many have found useful, (MyOFBiz.com http://www.myofbiz.com) without risk of severe rebuke?
> The only time I think I've rebuked you is when you did nothing to engage the conversation and instead just wrote something along the lines of "you'll find the answer to that question at my website!".  I don't think anyone has an issue with the promotion of relevant websites, companies, projects, etc. but I don't personally think it should ever be the primary purpose of sending a message to these lists.  Moqui isn't just a random pet project anyway, it is a potential replacement for the OFBiz framework created by one of the founders of OFBiz, if that's not worthy of discussion I don't know what would be.
>
IMO, it is one thing to talk about replacing the framework. It is quite 
another to continually harp on what is wrong with OFBiz.
>> Of course that was a rhetorical question. I know the answer. But I will say this: As an outsider, what I see going on here is seriously wrong...The constant innuendo that there is something amiss with OFBiz undermines the public's faith in the quality and value proposition of this project.
> That seems pretty hypocritical considering you've spent a fair amount of time in the past criticizing the most active members of the community and spreading FUD about the way this project is managed.  But at the end of the day there is something wrong and ignoring that will achieve nothing, this is the dev list and is the most appropriate place to discuss these development related issues.
Really? What, in your esteemed opinion is wrong? With OFBiz that is. And 
not me. (I already know that latter.)
>> Despite all the differences of all the OFBiz community members, OFBiz still remains the best open source - possibly any source - ERP around. Lets not forget that.
>>
>> Although I have no authority to request this I'm asking that David please stop using this list as his "dumping" ground. David, if you do not have positive OFBiz commentary, please don't post.
> Nobody has any authority here other than the respect one gains through what the ASF calls a "meritorcracy" (government by merit), and there really can't be any doubt that David has well and truly earned the right to say whatever he damn well pleases (in my opinion).  David's spent more time interacting with this community than anyone else and if he's learnt something from that then I for one want to hear it.
>
Well, if your aim is to destroy OFBiz in favor of Moqui or any other 
"the grass is always greener" solution, then by all means bash away and 
encourage David and everyone to join the fray.
>> BTW, anyone wanting to help me make MyOFBiz.com a better resource for the OFBiz community, please feel free to contact me at ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>>
>> On 5/2/11 7:46 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>> In fact, we have a garden now... it's just looking for gardeners.
>>>
>>> Moqui Framework 1.0 is feature-complete and in beta. The Mantle data model (UDM) is in an initially complete state (except for seed data which I'm still working on), and is at a point where feedback is the most important next step (with various improvements to it already planned as well).
>>>
>>> In any case, framework add-ons and applications are welcome, and I've even solicited creation of such things in order to help test the framework and give people opportunities to experience the framework and give feedback.
>>>
>>> If you create something great, let me know and I'll list it here:
>>>
>>> http://www.moqui.org/crust.html
>>>
>>> Maybe even Apache OFBiz will be there at some point.
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 2, 2011, at 9:34 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:
>>>
>>>> That's great, David. Glad to know we'll have a garden soon.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 10:00 -0700, David E Jones wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My goal is to split the community to various sub-communities involved in different projects which make up an ecosystem of projects based on the same framework and data model, as opposed to a single project for everything. This will reduce conflict and encourage people to try different ideas with end-users in the position to choose between them based on what works best for them.
>>>>>
>>>>> A distributed community, as opposed to a centralized community, would allow many more people to get involved with much less conflict than our current rather small community. The point is not to exclude people or get rid of a community, the point is to enable more people to get involved and move it more towards a "free market" structure as opposed to the current "central planning" type of structure that OFBiz operates under.
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>

Re: Free Market versus Central Planning (was Re: New Icons)

[Scott Gray <sc...@hotwaxmedia.com>]

On 3/05/2011, at 1:48 PM, Adrian Crum wrote:

> I agree with Scott, but at the same time I agree with Ruth a little.

> David started off promoting Moqui by bashing on the OFBiz developer community and the product.

But to be fair, he was doing that before he got Moqui under way as well and that discontent is possibly (probably?) what drove him to create Moqui rather than being criticism for marketing purposes.

> But he's toned that down now, so I think a discussion about using it in the OFBiz project is appropriate.
> 
> -Adrian
> 
> On 5/2/2011 6:23 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>> On 3/05/2011, at 12:51 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>> 
>>> List:
>>> Why is it that David is allowed to advertise continuously about his latest pet project - that has nothing to do with OFBiz - on this mailing list and others, such as myself can't even mention a resource dedicated entirely to OFBiz, that many have found useful, (MyOFBiz.com http://www.myofbiz.com) without risk of severe rebuke?
>> The only time I think I've rebuked you is when you did nothing to engage the conversation and instead just wrote something along the lines of "you'll find the answer to that question at my website!".  I don't think anyone has an issue with the promotion of relevant websites, companies, projects, etc. but I don't personally think it should ever be the primary purpose of sending a message to these lists.  Moqui isn't just a random pet project anyway, it is a potential replacement for the OFBiz framework created by one of the founders of OFBiz, if that's not worthy of discussion I don't know what would be.
>> 
>>> Of course that was a rhetorical question. I know the answer. But I will say this: As an outsider, what I see going on here is seriously wrong...The constant innuendo that there is something amiss with OFBiz undermines the public's faith in the quality and value proposition of this project.
>> That seems pretty hypocritical considering you've spent a fair amount of time in the past criticizing the most active members of the community and spreading FUD about the way this project is managed.  But at the end of the day there is something wrong and ignoring that will achieve nothing, this is the dev list and is the most appropriate place to discuss these development related issues.
>> 
>>> Despite all the differences of all the OFBiz community members, OFBiz still remains the best open source - possibly any source - ERP around. Lets not forget that.
>>> 
>>> Although I have no authority to request this I'm asking that David please stop using this list as his "dumping" ground. David, if you do not have positive OFBiz commentary, please don't post.
>> Nobody has any authority here other than the respect one gains through what the ASF calls a "meritorcracy" (government by merit), and there really can't be any doubt that David has well and truly earned the right to say whatever he damn well pleases (in my opinion).  David's spent more time interacting with this community than anyone else and if he's learnt something from that then I for one want to hear it.
>> 
>>> BTW, anyone wanting to help me make MyOFBiz.com a better resource for the OFBiz community, please feel free to contact me at ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>> 
>>> On 5/2/11 7:46 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>>> In fact, we have a garden now... it's just looking for gardeners.
>>>> 
>>>> Moqui Framework 1.0 is feature-complete and in beta. The Mantle data model (UDM) is in an initially complete state (except for seed data which I'm still working on), and is at a point where feedback is the most important next step (with various improvements to it already planned as well).
>>>> 
>>>> In any case, framework add-ons and applications are welcome, and I've even solicited creation of such things in order to help test the framework and give people opportunities to experience the framework and give feedback.
>>>> 
>>>> If you create something great, let me know and I'll list it here:
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.moqui.org/crust.html
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe even Apache OFBiz will be there at some point.
>>>> 
>>>> -David
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 9:34 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> That's great, David. Glad to know we'll have a garden soon.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 10:00 -0700, David E Jones wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> My goal is to split the community to various sub-communities involved in different projects which make up an ecosystem of projects based on the same framework and data model, as opposed to a single project for everything. This will reduce conflict and encourage people to try different ideas with end-users in the position to choose between them based on what works best for them.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> A distributed community, as opposed to a centralized community, would allow many more people to get involved with much less conflict than our current rather small community. The point is not to exclude people or get rid of a community, the point is to enable more people to get involved and move it more towards a "free market" structure as opposed to the current "central planning" type of structure that OFBiz operates under.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>> 

Re: Free Market versus Central Planning (was Re: New Icons)

[Adrian Crum <ad...@sandglass-software.com>]

I agree with Scott, but at the same time I agree with Ruth a little. 
David started off promoting Moqui by bashing on the OFBiz developer 
community and the product. But he's toned that down now, so I think a 
discussion about using it in the OFBiz project is appropriate.

-Adrian

On 5/2/2011 6:23 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
> On 3/05/2011, at 12:51 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>> List:
>> Why is it that David is allowed to advertise continuously about his latest pet project - that has nothing to do with OFBiz - on this mailing list and others, such as myself can't even mention a resource dedicated entirely to OFBiz, that many have found useful, (MyOFBiz.com http://www.myofbiz.com) without risk of severe rebuke?
> The only time I think I've rebuked you is when you did nothing to engage the conversation and instead just wrote something along the lines of "you'll find the answer to that question at my website!".  I don't think anyone has an issue with the promotion of relevant websites, companies, projects, etc. but I don't personally think it should ever be the primary purpose of sending a message to these lists.  Moqui isn't just a random pet project anyway, it is a potential replacement for the OFBiz framework created by one of the founders of OFBiz, if that's not worthy of discussion I don't know what would be.
>
>> Of course that was a rhetorical question. I know the answer. But I will say this: As an outsider, what I see going on here is seriously wrong...The constant innuendo that there is something amiss with OFBiz undermines the public's faith in the quality and value proposition of this project.
> That seems pretty hypocritical considering you've spent a fair amount of time in the past criticizing the most active members of the community and spreading FUD about the way this project is managed.  But at the end of the day there is something wrong and ignoring that will achieve nothing, this is the dev list and is the most appropriate place to discuss these development related issues.
>
>> Despite all the differences of all the OFBiz community members, OFBiz still remains the best open source - possibly any source - ERP around. Lets not forget that.
>>
>> Although I have no authority to request this I'm asking that David please stop using this list as his "dumping" ground. David, if you do not have positive OFBiz commentary, please don't post.
> Nobody has any authority here other than the respect one gains through what the ASF calls a "meritorcracy" (government by merit), and there really can't be any doubt that David has well and truly earned the right to say whatever he damn well pleases (in my opinion).  David's spent more time interacting with this community than anyone else and if he's learnt something from that then I for one want to hear it.
>
>> BTW, anyone wanting to help me make MyOFBiz.com a better resource for the OFBiz community, please feel free to contact me at ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>>
>> On 5/2/11 7:46 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>> In fact, we have a garden now... it's just looking for gardeners.
>>>
>>> Moqui Framework 1.0 is feature-complete and in beta. The Mantle data model (UDM) is in an initially complete state (except for seed data which I'm still working on), and is at a point where feedback is the most important next step (with various improvements to it already planned as well).
>>>
>>> In any case, framework add-ons and applications are welcome, and I've even solicited creation of such things in order to help test the framework and give people opportunities to experience the framework and give feedback.
>>>
>>> If you create something great, let me know and I'll list it here:
>>>
>>> http://www.moqui.org/crust.html
>>>
>>> Maybe even Apache OFBiz will be there at some point.
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 2, 2011, at 9:34 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:
>>>
>>>> That's great, David. Glad to know we'll have a garden soon.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 10:00 -0700, David E Jones wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My goal is to split the community to various sub-communities involved in different projects which make up an ecosystem of projects based on the same framework and data model, as opposed to a single project for everything. This will reduce conflict and encourage people to try different ideas with end-users in the position to choose between them based on what works best for them.
>>>>>
>>>>> A distributed community, as opposed to a centralized community, would allow many more people to get involved with much less conflict than our current rather small community. The point is not to exclude people or get rid of a community, the point is to enable more people to get involved and move it more towards a "free market" structure as opposed to the current "central planning" type of structure that OFBiz operates under.
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>

Re: Free Market versus Central Planning (was Re: New Icons)

[Scott Gray <sc...@hotwaxmedia.com>]

On 3/05/2011, at 12:51 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> List:
> Why is it that David is allowed to advertise continuously about his latest pet project - that has nothing to do with OFBiz - on this mailing list and others, such as myself can't even mention a resource dedicated entirely to OFBiz, that many have found useful, (MyOFBiz.com http://www.myofbiz.com) without risk of severe rebuke?

The only time I think I've rebuked you is when you did nothing to engage the conversation and instead just wrote something along the lines of "you'll find the answer to that question at my website!".  I don't think anyone has an issue with the promotion of relevant websites, companies, projects, etc. but I don't personally think it should ever be the primary purpose of sending a message to these lists.  Moqui isn't just a random pet project anyway, it is a potential replacement for the OFBiz framework created by one of the founders of OFBiz, if that's not worthy of discussion I don't know what would be.

> Of course that was a rhetorical question. I know the answer. But I will say this: As an outsider, what I see going on here is seriously wrong...The constant innuendo that there is something amiss with OFBiz undermines the public's faith in the quality and value proposition of this project.

That seems pretty hypocritical considering you've spent a fair amount of time in the past criticizing the most active members of the community and spreading FUD about the way this project is managed.  But at the end of the day there is something wrong and ignoring that will achieve nothing, this is the dev list and is the most appropriate place to discuss these development related issues.

> Despite all the differences of all the OFBiz community members, OFBiz still remains the best open source - possibly any source - ERP around. Lets not forget that.
> 
> Although I have no authority to request this I'm asking that David please stop using this list as his "dumping" ground. David, if you do not have positive OFBiz commentary, please don't post.

Nobody has any authority here other than the respect one gains through what the ASF calls a "meritorcracy" (government by merit), and there really can't be any doubt that David has well and truly earned the right to say whatever he damn well pleases (in my opinion).  David's spent more time interacting with this community than anyone else and if he's learnt something from that then I for one want to hear it.

> BTW, anyone wanting to help me make MyOFBiz.com a better resource for the OFBiz community, please feel free to contact me at ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
> 
> Regards,
> Ruth
> 
> On 5/2/11 7:46 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>> In fact, we have a garden now... it's just looking for gardeners.
>> 
>> Moqui Framework 1.0 is feature-complete and in beta. The Mantle data model (UDM) is in an initially complete state (except for seed data which I'm still working on), and is at a point where feedback is the most important next step (with various improvements to it already planned as well).
>> 
>> In any case, framework add-ons and applications are welcome, and I've even solicited creation of such things in order to help test the framework and give people opportunities to experience the framework and give feedback.
>> 
>> If you create something great, let me know and I'll list it here:
>> 
>> http://www.moqui.org/crust.html
>> 
>> Maybe even Apache OFBiz will be there at some point.
>> 
>> -David
>> 
>> 
>> On May 2, 2011, at 9:34 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:
>> 
>>> That's great, David. Glad to know we'll have a garden soon.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 10:00 -0700, David E Jones wrote:
>>> 
>>>> My goal is to split the community to various sub-communities involved in different projects which make up an ecosystem of projects based on the same framework and data model, as opposed to a single project for everything. This will reduce conflict and encourage people to try different ideas with end-users in the position to choose between them based on what works best for them.
>>>> 
>>>> A distributed community, as opposed to a centralized community, would allow many more people to get involved with much less conflict than our current rather small community. The point is not to exclude people or get rid of a community, the point is to enable more people to get involved and move it more towards a "free market" structure as opposed to the current "central planning" type of structure that OFBiz operates under.
>>>> 
>>>> -David
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 

Re: Free Market versus Central Planning (was Re: New Icons)

[Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>]

List:
Why is it that David is allowed to advertise continuously about his 
latest pet project - that has nothing to do with OFBiz - on this mailing 
list and others, such as myself can't even mention a resource dedicated 
entirely to OFBiz, that many have found useful, (MyOFBiz.com 
http://www.myofbiz.com) without risk of severe rebuke?

Of course that was a rhetorical question. I know the answer. But I will 
say this: As an outsider, what I see going on here is seriously 
wrong...The constant innuendo that there is something amiss with OFBiz 
undermines the public's faith in the quality and value proposition of 
this project. Despite all the differences of all the OFBiz community 
members, OFBiz still remains the best open source - possibly any source 
- ERP around. Lets not forget that.

Although I have no authority to request this I'm asking that David 
please stop using this list as his "dumping" ground. David, if you do 
not have positive OFBiz commentary, please don't post.

BTW, anyone wanting to help me make MyOFBiz.com a better resource for 
the OFBiz community, please feel free to contact me at 
ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com

Regards,
Ruth

On 5/2/11 7:46 PM, David E Jones wrote:
> In fact, we have a garden now... it's just looking for gardeners.
>
> Moqui Framework 1.0 is feature-complete and in beta. The Mantle data model (UDM) is in an initially complete state (except for seed data which I'm still working on), and is at a point where feedback is the most important next step (with various improvements to it already planned as well).
>
> In any case, framework add-ons and applications are welcome, and I've even solicited creation of such things in order to help test the framework and give people opportunities to experience the framework and give feedback.
>
> If you create something great, let me know and I'll list it here:
>
> http://www.moqui.org/crust.html
>
> Maybe even Apache OFBiz will be there at some point.
>
> -David
>
>
> On May 2, 2011, at 9:34 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:
>
>> That's great, David. Glad to know we'll have a garden soon.
>>
>> On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 10:00 -0700, David E Jones wrote:
>>
>>> My goal is to split the community to various sub-communities involved in different projects which make up an ecosystem of projects based on the same framework and data model, as opposed to a single project for everything. This will reduce conflict and encourage people to try different ideas with end-users in the position to choose between them based on what works best for them.
>>>
>>> A distributed community, as opposed to a centralized community, would allow many more people to get involved with much less conflict than our current rather small community. The point is not to exclude people or get rid of a community, the point is to enable more people to get involved and move it more towards a "free market" structure as opposed to the current "central planning" type of structure that OFBiz operates under.
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>
>

Re: Free Market versus Central Planning (was Re: New Icons)

[David E Jones <de...@me.com>]

In fact, we have a garden now... it's just looking for gardeners.

Moqui Framework 1.0 is feature-complete and in beta. The Mantle data model (UDM) is in an initially complete state (except for seed data which I'm still working on), and is at a point where feedback is the most important next step (with various improvements to it already planned as well).

In any case, framework add-ons and applications are welcome, and I've even solicited creation of such things in order to help test the framework and give people opportunities to experience the framework and give feedback.

If you create something great, let me know and I'll list it here:

http://www.moqui.org/crust.html

Maybe even Apache OFBiz will be there at some point.

-David


On May 2, 2011, at 9:34 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:

> That's great, David. Glad to know we'll have a garden soon.
> 
> On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 10:00 -0700, David E Jones wrote:
> 
>> My goal is to split the community to various sub-communities involved in different projects which make up an ecosystem of projects based on the same framework and data model, as opposed to a single project for everything. This will reduce conflict and encourage people to try different ideas with end-users in the position to choose between them based on what works best for them.
>> 
>> A distributed community, as opposed to a centralized community, would allow many more people to get involved with much less conflict than our current rather small community. The point is not to exclude people or get rid of a community, the point is to enable more people to get involved and move it more towards a "free market" structure as opposed to the current "central planning" type of structure that OFBiz operates under.
>> 
>> -David
>> 
> 
>