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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Carl Marcum <cm...@apache.org> on 2016/01/22 12:00:46 UTC

Including Java

Did anyone test AOO using Apache Harmony as the JRE?

I was wondering if it would have enough functionality to bundle as the 
default and then set the JRE to point at a users install if found.

I know Harmony is in the Attic now but I read somewhere it was 99% 
function but not necessarily compatible.

Just a thought.

Best regards,
Carl


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Re: Including Java

Posted by "Rony G. Flatscher (Apache)" <ro...@apache.org>.
On 22.01.2016 13:22, Jan Høydahl wrote:
> Probably not very future proof, since it will soon get outdated as Java moves on to new versions.
Harmony was planned to be at level 1.5/5, Google has been using it for Android, cf.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Harmony>.

As long as new versions of Java still run "backlevel" Java 1.5/5 compiled code (the Java classfile
format of Java 1.5/5) Harmony programs would keep running. So as long as AOO Java programs get
compiled against Harmony this might be an option.

---rony



>> 22. jan. 2016 kl. 12.00 skrev Carl Marcum <cm...@apache.org>:
>>
>> Did anyone test AOO using Apache Harmony as the JRE?
>>
>> I was wondering if it would have enough functionality to bundle as the default and then set the JRE to point at a users install if found.
>>
>> I know Harmony is in the Attic now but I read somewhere it was 99% function but not necessarily compatible.
>>
>> Just a thought.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Carl
>>

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Re: Including Java

Posted by Carl Marcum <cm...@apache.org>.
On 01/22/2016 05:06 PM, Marcus wrote:
> Am 01/22/2016 10:10 PM, schrieb Carl Marcum:
>> On 01/22/2016 12:04 PM, Marcus wrote:
>>> Am 01/22/2016 01:22 PM, schrieb Jan Høydahl:
>>>> Probably not very future proof, since it will soon get outdated as
>>>> Java moves on to new versions.
>>>
>>> +1
>>> Please do not choose a Java platform that is getting out-of-date. This
>>> is not helpful when it comes to bugs that will no longer be fixed.
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>
>> I understand.
>>
>> My thought was that it would only be used as a fall back in case the
>> user had no JDK on their system so we don't have to ship the office with
>> reduced functionality.
>>
>> I wasn't sure if it would be feasible.
>
> sure, a bundled JRE as fallback solution would be very comfortable for 
> the user and to some degree I share your idea. But it has also some 
> disadvantages:
>
> - Who is responsible for updating it when it's outdated (and the usual 
> JRE needs to be updated several times per year ;-) )? The user who has 
> installed it or AOO because it was bundled?
>
> - Bundled software will increase the size of every download file 
> (currently Oracle's JRE "costs" ~40-60 MB [1]) - and AOO has already a 
> size that needs to be reduced better sooner than later.
>
> - We have to keep the bundled JRE always up-to-date in the build 
> process which is some effort. At Sun/Oracle times this was done and 
> the bundled JRE was really often outdated and we had to update this 
> with every new OpenOffice release. I remember that we had to re-build 
> everything too often because it just was forgotten to update it.
>
> As fallback solution a message box with text like "a suitable JRE 
> wasn't found, but needed for the functions a,b,c and therefore it 
> should be installed from xyz" is IMHO better.
>
> But - as always ;-) - this is just my 2ct.
>
> [1] 
> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jre8-downloads-2133155.html
>
> Marcus

Marcus,

You make a good point.

I think there is enough to do already :)

Thanks,
Carl


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Re: Including Java

Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 01/22/2016 10:10 PM, schrieb Carl Marcum:
> On 01/22/2016 12:04 PM, Marcus wrote:
>> Am 01/22/2016 01:22 PM, schrieb Jan Høydahl:
>>> Probably not very future proof, since it will soon get outdated as
>>> Java moves on to new versions.
>>
>> +1
>> Please do not choose a Java platform that is getting out-of-date. This
>> is not helpful when it comes to bugs that will no longer be fixed.
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>
> I understand.
>
> My thought was that it would only be used as a fall back in case the
> user had no JDK on their system so we don't have to ship the office with
> reduced functionality.
>
> I wasn't sure if it would be feasible.

sure, a bundled JRE as fallback solution would be very comfortable for 
the user and to some degree I share your idea. But it has also some 
disadvantages:

- Who is responsible for updating it when it's outdated (and the usual 
JRE needs to be updated several times per year ;-) )? The user who has 
installed it or AOO because it was bundled?

- Bundled software will increase the size of every download file 
(currently Oracle's JRE "costs" ~40-60 MB [1]) - and AOO has already a 
size that needs to be reduced better sooner than later.

- We have to keep the bundled JRE always up-to-date in the build process 
which is some effort. At Sun/Oracle times this was done and the bundled 
JRE was really often outdated and we had to update this with every new 
OpenOffice release. I remember that we had to re-build everything too 
often because it just was forgotten to update it.

As fallback solution a message box with text like "a suitable JRE wasn't 
found, but needed for the functions a,b,c and therefore it should be 
installed from xyz" is IMHO better.

But - as always ;-) - this is just my 2ct.

[1] 
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jre8-downloads-2133155.html

Marcus


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Re: Including Java

Posted by Carl Marcum <cm...@apache.org>.
On 01/22/2016 12:04 PM, Marcus wrote:
> Am 01/22/2016 01:22 PM, schrieb Jan Høydahl:
>> Probably not very future proof, since it will soon get outdated as 
>> Java moves on to new versions.
>
> +1
> Please do not choose a Java platform that is getting out-of-date. This 
> is not helpful when it comes to bugs that will no longer be fixed.
>
> Marcus
>

I understand.

My thought was that it would only be used as a fall back in case the 
user had no JDK on their system so we don't have to ship the office with 
reduced functionality.

I wasn't sure if it would be feasible.

Carl


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Re: Including Java

Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 01/22/2016 01:22 PM, schrieb Jan Høydahl:
> Probably not very future proof, since it will soon get outdated as Java moves on to new versions.

+1
Please do not choose a Java platform that is getting out-of-date. This 
is not helpful when it comes to bugs that will no longer be fixed.

Marcus



>> 22. jan. 2016 kl. 12.00 skrev Carl Marcum<cm...@apache.org>:
>>
>> Did anyone test AOO using Apache Harmony as the JRE?
>>
>> I was wondering if it would have enough functionality to bundle as the default and then set the JRE to point at a users install if found.
>>
>> I know Harmony is in the Attic now but I read somewhere it was 99% function but not necessarily compatible.
>>
>> Just a thought.

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Re: Including Java

Posted by Damjan Jovanovic <da...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Jan Høydahl <ja...@cominvent.com> wrote:

> Probably not very future proof, since it will soon get outdated as Java
> moves on to new versions.
> I agree it is sad we don’t have a permissive-licensed version of the JRE
> anymore :(
>
>
We kind of do, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Java_virtual_machines

The following are permissively licensed JVMs:
Avian under the ISC license (promising)
IKVM.NET under the zlib license (just uses the underlying .NET environment)
VMKit J3 from the LLVM project, under the University of Illinois/NCSA Open
Source License (unmaintained)

Class library wise, OpenJDK's one and GNU Classpath's one are both GPL with
classpath exception. Harmony was Apache licensed. Avian has its own
miniature class library even more permissively licensed, but it's nowhere
near developed enough for most real world Java usage (
https://github.com/ReadyTalk/avian/tree/master/classpath/java).

Android recently switched to OpenJDK, but its previous class library was
probably the most advanced fork of Harmony's class library in existence.
Avian can use both OpenJDK and the old Android class library, and can JIT
at runtime or AOT Java code into a standalone executable (
http://readytalk.github.io/avian/).

Damjan


> --
> Jan Høydahl, search solution architect
> Cominvent AS - www.cominvent.com
>
> > 22. jan. 2016 kl. 12.00 skrev Carl Marcum <cm...@apache.org>:
> >
> > Did anyone test AOO using Apache Harmony as the JRE?
> >
> > I was wondering if it would have enough functionality to bundle as the
> default and then set the JRE to point at a users install if found.
> >
> > I know Harmony is in the Attic now but I read somewhere it was 99%
> function but not necessarily compatible.
> >
> > Just a thought.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Carl
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >
>
>
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>
>

Re: Including Java

Posted by Jan Høydahl <ja...@cominvent.com>.
Probably not very future proof, since it will soon get outdated as Java moves on to new versions.
I agree it is sad we don’t have a permissive-licensed version of the JRE anymore :(

--
Jan Høydahl, search solution architect
Cominvent AS - www.cominvent.com

> 22. jan. 2016 kl. 12.00 skrev Carl Marcum <cm...@apache.org>:
> 
> Did anyone test AOO using Apache Harmony as the JRE?
> 
> I was wondering if it would have enough functionality to bundle as the default and then set the JRE to point at a users install if found.
> 
> I know Harmony is in the Attic now but I read somewhere it was 99% function but not necessarily compatible.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> Best regards,
> Carl
> 
> 
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> 


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