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Posted to dev@jena.apache.org by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> on 2012/01/08 14:23:41 UTC
Thinking about graduation
Hey folks,
Jena's cleaned up all it's IP, moved all cpde amd development over
here, produced an excellent release, added a committer, built a new
website, moved it's community over to apache mailing lists, presented
at ApacheCon, and much more.
Jena did a good job wading through all the ASF documentation to figure
out how to do things and so there was very little hands-on that any of
the mentors needed to do.
What else do you folks think you need to learn about apache before you
are ready to graduate out of the incubator into your own PMC?
If we in fact think jena may be ready to graduate,
http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
explains the process.
cheers!
- Leo
Re: Thinking about graduation
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> ...Would you and/or Benson be staying on the Jena PMC?
>>
>> I'll stay on the mailing lists for at least a year or so (I tend to do
>> that for all the projects I mentor...), but I don't particularly want
>> to be on the PMC. I think the PMC should consist of people working on
>> the project, and I'm not really doing any of that...
>
> Ok - I think it's good to have at least one ASF member on any PMC, as
> it makes some things easier, as members have access to all ASF
> resources for example.
>
> So if Benson agrees to stay on the PMC and you'll stay around for a
> year, I'm +1 on graduating if others agree.
As a small clarification, it's not my ambition to be a member of 27
different PMCs. However, this is the second podling which has asked me
to stick around for some period of time as a PMC member, and I don't
see any grave harm in it, with all due respect to Leo. Heck, I have
submitted code contributions to Jena from time to time.
>
> -Bertrand
Re: Thinking about graduation
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>> ...Would you and/or Benson be staying on the Jena PMC?
>
> I'll stay on the mailing lists for at least a year or so (I tend to do
> that for all the projects I mentor...), but I don't particularly want
> to be on the PMC. I think the PMC should consist of people working on
> the project, and I'm not really doing any of that...
Ok - I think it's good to have at least one ASF member on any PMC, as
it makes some things easier, as members have access to all ASF
resources for example.
So if Benson agrees to stay on the PMC and you'll stay around for a
year, I'm +1 on graduating if others agree.
-Bertrand
Re: Thinking about graduation
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
>> ...If we in fact think jena may be ready to graduate,
>>
>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
>>
>> explains the process....
>
> Would you and/or Benson be staying on the Jena PMC?
I'll stay on the mailing lists for at least a year or so (I tend to do
that for all the projects I mentor...), but I don't particularly want
to be on the PMC. I think the PMC should consist of people working on
the project, and I'm not really doing any of that.
cheerio,
Leo
Re: Thinking about graduation
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
>> ...If we in fact think jena may be ready to graduate,
>>
>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
>>
>> explains the process....
>
> Would you and/or Benson be staying on the Jena PMC?
>
> It's good IMO to have at leas one ASF member on a PMC, and I don't
> think any other committers are currently members.
>
> I don't plan on staying...overcommitted already.
I could stay. I use Jena in my day job, so it's relatively low-cost to
me to pay attention.
>
> -Bertrand
Re: Thinking about graduation
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
> ...If we in fact think jena may be ready to graduate,
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
>
> explains the process....
Would you and/or Benson be staying on the Jena PMC?
It's good IMO to have at leas one ASF member on a PMC, and I don't
think any other committers are currently members.
I don't plan on staying...overcommitted already.
-Bertrand
Re: Thinking about graduation
Posted by Andy Seaborne <an...@apache.org>.
On 09/01/12 12:45, Benson Margulies wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 7:42 AM, Damian Steer<d....@bristol.ac.uk> wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On 09/01/12 11:26, Andy Seaborne wrote:
>>
>>> There is one matter to do still - the code is java-packaged under
>>> "com.hp.hpl.jena" and a small amount of "org.openjena".
>>
>> +1 to this move, post-graduation.
>>
>
>
> +1 to 'post'. Absolutely not required to graduate.
Considering java-packaging separately works (better) for me.
Andy
Re: Thinking about graduation
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 7:42 AM, Damian Steer <d....@bristol.ac.uk> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 09/01/12 11:26, Andy Seaborne wrote:
>
>> There is one matter to do still - the code is java-packaged under
>> "com.hp.hpl.jena" and a small amount of "org.openjena".
>
> +1 to this move, post-graduation.
>
+1 to 'post'. Absolutely not required to graduate.
>> I wouldn't want to be too ambitious for Jena3 or it will never
>> happen but adding in other significant discontinuities at this
>> point would be good. There are lots of internal changes I can think
>> of, but they aren't large external changes dependent on a major
>> version number change.
>
> Agree that piling on changes would be a bad idea for 'Jena 3'. We
> might want to consider moving classes between artifacts at that point?
> I'm thinking of moving RIOT into core, or at least out of ARQ.
>
> Damian
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Re: Thinking about graduation
Posted by Damian Steer <d....@bristol.ac.uk>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 09/01/12 11:26, Andy Seaborne wrote:
> There is one matter to do still - the code is java-packaged under
> "com.hp.hpl.jena" and a small amount of "org.openjena".
+1 to this move, post-graduation.
> I wouldn't want to be too ambitious for Jena3 or it will never
> happen but adding in other significant discontinuities at this
> point would be good. There are lots of internal changes I can think
> of, but they aren't large external changes dependent on a major
> version number change.
Agree that piling on changes would be a bad idea for 'Jena 3'. We
might want to consider moving classes between artifacts at that point?
I'm thinking of moving RIOT into core, or at least out of ARQ.
Damian
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Re: Thinking about graduation
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Andy Seaborne <an...@apache.org> wrote:
>> What else do you folks think you need to learn about apache before you
>> are ready to graduate out of the incubator into your own PMC?
...
> There is one matter to do still - the code is java-packaged under
> "com.hp.hpl.jena" and a small amount of "org.openjena".
Ah. That's perhaps not *strictly* an incubation thing :)
If I were you and I wanted to change package name (*) I would perhaps
do something like
- release TDB and/or LARQ since it sounds like those are about ready
- start graduating
- handle post-board-vote graduation stuff
-- move mailing lists and website, etc
- release a 2.7.1 with some bugfixes and without incubation disclaimer
-- make sure this release announces to users package names will change for 3.0
- branch for 3.x
- change package names
- fiddle fiddle fiddle
- release a 3.0 with changed package name(s)
- release a 2.7.2 as an intended 'final' release of 2.x
The thing with graduation is, it takes a lot longer than releasing
:-). You need a bunch of votes, and then the board have to pass a
resolution during their concall, which happens once a month (and if
you're *really* unlucky you could bumped off of the agenda and have to
wait a month), and then there's admin work after that. I would
definitely not want to (need to) synchronize that administrative
process with the work of building a 3.x.
But if you think another ordering is better for some reason that's
fine too. No rush :)
cheers,
Leo
(*) if I was me, I probably wouldn't change the package name, and stay
on 2.x, unless I was doing a major backwards-incompatible revision of
the API anyway
Re: Thinking
Posted by Andy Seaborne <an...@apache.org>.
On 09/01/12 16:20, Andy Seaborne wrote:
> On 09/01/12 11:53, Ross Gardler wrote:
>> Can I suggest starting a JIRA issue for Jena3 and creating (or moving)
>> issues as subtasks under that. This will allow the team to look at how
>> realistic this is and thus decide whether it should be done before
>> graduation or not.
>
> Already on my list of things to do post-release: there's a few different
> JIRA to capture things discussed.
>
> My strong preference for super-JIRA is that "suggestion implies
> contribution" or they become idealistic but unachievable. I've seen
> systems "do a LISP" (the original LISP never got to 2.0) as I'm sure we
> all have.
>
> Andy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LISP_2
I've raised 4 "brainstorming" JIRA to give some structure to discussions
but they aren't entirely independent dimensions and when it comes down
to actually "doing" they are likely to intertwine.
JENA-189 -- Jena 3 / technical
JENA-190 -- Jena delivery
JENA-191 -- Jena module structure and build
JENA-192 -- Jena java package renaming.
Please be realistic!
All separate from graduation.
Andy
Re: Thinking about graduation
Posted by Andy Seaborne <an...@apache.org>.
On 09/01/12 11:53, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Can I suggest starting a JIRA issue for Jena3 and creating (or moving)
> issues as subtasks under that. This will allow the team to look at how
> realistic this is and thus decide whether it should be done before
> graduation or not.
Already on my list of things to do post-release: there's a few different
JIRA to capture things discussed.
My strong preference for super-JIRA is that "suggestion implies
contribution" or they become idealistic but unachievable. I've seen
systems "do a LISP" (the original LISP never got to 2.0) as I'm sure we
all have.
Andy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LISP_2
Re: Thinking about graduation
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 9 January 2012 11:26, Andy Seaborne <an...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 08/01/12 13:23, Leo Simons wrote:
>>
...
> While (maybe) not strictly necessary ("recommended, not mandatory") we have
> discussed repackaging to org.apache.jena, it seems very good practice to do
> so - and less confusing in the long term. I haven't heard any objections to
> doing so.
>
> It's a discontinuity bump for users - so this makes it "Jena3" to me.
If I recall correctly that was the plan the team favoured when
discussing coming into the ASF in the first place.
> I wouldn't want to be too ambitious for Jena3 or it will never happen but
> adding in other significant discontinuities at this point would be good.
> There are lots of internal changes I can think of, but they aren't large
> external changes dependent on a major version number change.
Can I suggest starting a JIRA issue for Jena3 and creating (or moving)
issues as subtasks under that. This will allow the team to look at how
realistic this is and thus decide whether it should be done before
graduation or not.
As Andy pointed out the change in package names is preferred but it is
not mandatory. Some people argue that being in the incubator can
hinder community development (i.e. people don't invest in it because
it is not a TLP). If a move to Jena3 is just a matter of months away
then I huess it would be OK, but if longer maybe you want to consider
delaying it to after graduation.
Ross
--
Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
Programme Leader (Open Development)
OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
Re: Thinking about graduation
Posted by Andy Seaborne <an...@apache.org>.
On 08/01/12 13:23, Leo Simons wrote:
> Hey folks,
>
> Jena's cleaned up all it's IP, moved all cpde amd development over
> here, produced an excellent release, added a committer, built a new
> website, moved it's community over to apache mailing lists, presented
> at ApacheCon, and much more.
>
> Jena did a good job wading through all the ASF documentation to figure
> out how to do things and so there was very little hands-on that any of
> the mentors needed to do.
>
> What else do you folks think you need to learn about apache before you
> are ready to graduate out of the incubator into your own PMC?
>
> If we in fact think jena may be ready to graduate,
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
>
> explains the process.
>
>
> cheers!
>
>
> - Leo
Good idea.
There is one matter to do still - the code is java-packaged under
"com.hp.hpl.jena" and a small amount of "org.openjena".
We have already done the maven group id which, in some ways, is more
visible as that's where the code goes for distribution.
While (maybe) not strictly necessary ("recommended, not mandatory") we
have discussed repackaging to org.apache.jena, it seems very good
practice to do so - and less confusing in the long term. I haven't
heard any objections to doing so.
It's a discontinuity bump for users - so this makes it "Jena3" to me.
I wouldn't want to be too ambitious for Jena3 or it will never happen
but adding in other significant discontinuities at this point would be
good. There are lots of internal changes I can think of, but they aren't
large external changes dependent on a major version number change.
Andy
Re: Thinking about graduation
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity.
On Jan 8, 2012 3:11 PM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
wrote:
> > ...I've not for anything specific to say. My role here effectively
ceased when
> > the projects entered the incubator. I never signed on as a mentor, but I
> > have spotted inoccasionally...
>
> Note that you are listed as a mentor at
> http://incubator.apache.org/jena/about_jena/team.html
>
Not sure why. I'm not a mentor according to the proposal:
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/JenaProposal
No matter though, it seems the listed mentors have done a great job.
Ross
> -Bertrand
Re: Thinking about graduation
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> ...I've not for anything specific to say. My role here effectively ceased when
> the projects entered the incubator. I never signed on as a mentor, but I
> have spotted inoccasionally...
Note that you are listed as a mentor at
http://incubator.apache.org/jena/about_jena/team.html
-Bertrand
Re:Thinking about graduation
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
Sorry for the autocorrect errors, the important part senna easily
understood ;-)
Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity.
On Jan 8, 2012 1:32 PM, "Ross Gardler" <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> I've not for anything specific to say. My role here effectively ceased
> when the projects entered the incubator. I never signed on as a mentor, but
> I have spotted inoccasionally.
>
> If the active mentors are happy I would support graduation, I think the
> community is in good shape.
>
> Well done for getting to the point of being able to discuss graduation.
>
> Ross
>
> Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity.
> On Jan 8, 2012 1:24 PM, "Leo Simons" <ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey folks,
>>
>> Jena's cleaned up all it's IP, moved all cpde amd development over
>> here, produced an excellent release, added a committer, built a new
>> website, moved it's community over to apache mailing lists, presented
>> at ApacheCon, and much more.
>>
>> Jena did a good job wading through all the ASF documentation to figure
>> out how to do things and so there was very little hands-on that any of
>> the mentors needed to do.
>>
>> What else do you folks think you need to learn about apache before you
>> are ready to graduate out of the incubator into your own PMC?
>>
>> If we in fact think jena may be ready to graduate,
>>
>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
>>
>> explains the process.
>>
>>
>> cheers!
>>
>>
>> - Leo
>>
>
Re:Thinking about graduation
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
I've not for anything specific to say. My role here effectively ceased when
the projects entered the incubator. I never signed on as a mentor, but I
have spotted inoccasionally.
If the active mentors are happy I would support graduation, I think the
community is in good shape.
Well done for getting to the point of being able to discuss graduation.
Ross
Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity.
On Jan 8, 2012 1:24 PM, "Leo Simons" <ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
> Hey folks,
>
> Jena's cleaned up all it's IP, moved all cpde amd development over
> here, produced an excellent release, added a committer, built a new
> website, moved it's community over to apache mailing lists, presented
> at ApacheCon, and much more.
>
> Jena did a good job wading through all the ASF documentation to figure
> out how to do things and so there was very little hands-on that any of
> the mentors needed to do.
>
> What else do you folks think you need to learn about apache before you
> are ready to graduate out of the incubator into your own PMC?
>
> If we in fact think jena may be ready to graduate,
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
>
> explains the process.
>
>
> cheers!
>
>
> - Leo
>