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Posted to dev@directory.apache.org by Alex Karasulu <ao...@bellsouth.net> on 2004/07/06 21:17:24 UTC
[VOTE] Re: Re: Web site ready - give it a try
Hello all,
Oh boy, I figured I'd have to reply to this thread at some point.
Nicola you opened a can of worms for us again :). Hopefully we
can put it to rest this time.
Nicola you made some good points and I agree with most of them
namely points #1 and #2 about the incubator disclaimer and the
alternate banner respectively.
The name changes well, I repectfully disagree. Initially users
may wonder what these subprojects entail and that's what the
introduction sections and "What is it?" sections offer in a couple
of brief sentences. I don't think the barrier to newbies that
you're citing is really that great. This is where I disagree with
you and Noel. I'm not worried about people finding us and being
able to map a project name to an initiative. This by far is one of
our lesser (trivial) concerns. Furthermore the names IMO are
attractive enough and meaningful enough under a directory umbrella
to warrant closer inspection and this has more value. Sure we could
call it just another LDAP server or just another BER codec but
where's the fun in that. I say give the people, who are sweating
it, the room to be a little creative. It's the least we can do for
those who deal with a hard days work, then come home to grok what
they love. Please don't take that spice in their lives away.
More importantly, is the message sent to the community forming around
this project. We as a collective voted on the Eve name in particular
and unofficially agreed on the other names as well. If the vote
taken is not binding then we make those involved feel like their votes,
opinions, and passions don't count.
Let's be frank. Although we find no need to openly express our
pride in these names, they do "turn us on". We derive emotional value
from them. This drives us to struggle forward when we're confronted with
major problems or are just worn out. At the heart of this community
there is a sense of doing more than just writing code. We're here
to continue on the Apache tradition, to create some technology and
make a positive impact for everyone for free. The names we have chosen
summarize these aspirations in one word, one name. Each one of us has
some joy, some pride, in them as a community.
Plus these names have already been engrained in our culture. We use
then all the time. Those outside of the project already refer to
Eve and to Snickers for example. These names have history and meaning
to us even if they immediately do not to others looking in. Even with
the most tangential look, most outsider do get it. And when they do
the names become indelable.
Take for example Snickers. A member of the old LDAPd group came up
with it when he was hungry. He was also thinking about how to replace
SNACC4J. He (Robb Penoyer) decided to call the replacement (or whatever
he thought it may eventually become) Snickers. That's what we referred
to whenever we spoke about a SNACC4J replacement. The name was given
with some pride from a committer. Robb while he was with us, put his
heart into it a little more than usual. Perhaps he'll come back and
become active again if not for anything else but for the birth name
he gave to the subproject. Every one that worked on it afterwords liked
the Snickers name as well: it was very catchy. We have entire
conversations about the name that leads to more comradery within the
group. I don't want to take that away from this community. Again the
satisfaction or pride in the name is nothing that needs to be publically
announced - it's just something close to our hearts that makes us
passionate hence makes us persistant enough to tackle some very grueling
problems. Hey just to be clear my wife hates the name Snickers :), but
its what we decided would stick. This we decided together as a team.
The point is each name came from somewhere deep within this project. To
change that at this point would hurt the community.
Bringing up the topic of changing them is ok and natural but we've
gone through it before. Can we all agree to lay it to rest until a
couple years from now. If a vote needs to be taken then we can do so.
Ironically within the naming and directory project perhaps we first
need to vote to lay this resurgent naming issue to rest. That way
community members feel like their past votes have merit.
With respect to the other points made by you Nicola I'm a +1 on points
1 and 2:
1. concerning the rearrangement of the incubator disclaimer
2. the alternate banner
So to once and for all tackle point #3 let's just do that and take a
vote:
[X] lay the naming issue to rest for now until two or more years
[ ] take yet another vote to change names and site navigation accordingly
As you can see, I vote to lay this to rest so I can get back to the code
and to topics of technology. My time is precious and finite. I don't
want to waste time every quarter debating over lengthy email trails
whether or not these names should be changed.
Sincerely,
Alex
Re: [VOTE] Re: Re: Web site ready - give it a try
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Alex Karasulu wrote:
...
> As you can see, I vote to lay this to rest so I can get back to the code
> and to topics of technology. My time is precious and finite. I don't
> want to waste time every quarter debating over lengthy email trails
> whether or not these names should be changed.
Don't get me wrong, but the only lengthy mail I have read has been
yours. The easiest way to not waste time in a discussion is simply not
to take part in it: if enough developers don't take part in it, the
topic won't continue. A simple "we have already discussed it, we prefer
to keep the names" would have sufficed. I agree with Noel that this vote
really looks like "let's decide once and for all what we want the
bikeshed color to be".
On the other hand, I'm a bit concerned about how this thread, which
contained only about some random thoughts and suggestions, has quickly
degenerated. The best thing is to do in these cases is *not* to escalate
things, like others on this thread have done. I'll now crawl back to my
observation point, hoping that nobody will reply to this mail but just
think about it.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [VOTE] Re: Re: Web site ready - give it a try
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
[X] lay the naming issue to rest for now until two or more years
Steve.
--
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| Magic by Merlin |
| Production by Avalon |
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| http://avalon.apache.org |
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Re: [VOTE] Re: Re: Web site ready - give it a try
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
Alex Karasulu wrote:
> Oh boy, I figured I'd have to reply to this thread at some point.
> Nicola you opened a can of worms for us again :). Hopefully we
> can put it to rest this time.
Did you wake up on the wrong side today Alex? :o) I am sure you
didn't need to go through the roof. But nevertheless...
<satire-warning>
And regarding "branding management".
* Avalon Merlin -> Avalon server
* Jakarta Struts -> Jakarta Web MVC
* James -> formerly known as Jakarta Mail Server
* Cocoon -> formerly known as XML Publishing Framework
Do you (Noel) think that would help ASF in ANY way whatsoever ??
</satire-warning>
[X] lay the naming issue to rest for now until two or more years
[X] have strong branding and brand promotions. Generic names won't cut it.
Niclas
Re: [VOTE] Re: Re: Web site ready - give it a try
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>let's just do that and take a vote
>
>
> I don't see any point to take a vote on what color to paint the bike shed.
Gosh!
Now I'm all confused - and I thought it was a vote to send a message
that the don't need any paint let alone a bike shed.
Stephen.
--
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| Magic by Merlin |
| Production by Avalon |
| |
| http://avalon.apache.org |
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RE: [VOTE] Re: Re: Web site ready - give it a try
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> let's just do that and take a vote
I don't see any point to take a vote on what color to paint the bike shed.
We're all agreed to implement what we agree was the most important part of
Nicola Ken's observation.
--- Noel