You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@struts.apache.org by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com> on 2005/08/08 21:13:47 UTC
[OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Hi all,
I've seen comments for a while now how Maven is better than Ant... just a
few minutes ago James posted that Maven is "just smart software". I
didn't want to hijack that thread, hence this new one.
I'm not at all trying to start a flame war here, but I'd like to ask, can
anyone enumerate some real, legitimate reasons, as far as you are
concerned at least!, why Maven is better than Ant (or vice-versa if you
feel that way).
I'm personally quite comfortable with Ant... it does everything I ask of
it without feeling like its fighting me... I write all my scripts by hand
and I don't feel at all like that's a burden, in fact it feels like the
power is right where it is supposed to be: with me.
Maven, in my admittedly very limited exposure to it, has seemed confusing
and rather overwhelming. Anything of even moderate complexity and power
feels like that for a while and I recognize that, but I'm trying to decide
if I truly would gain enough to make the learning curve worth it, and to
perhaps ultimately try and convince people at work to do so as well.
What will I actually gain, what benefits will I derive? I'm looking for
real, concrete things, things which could, theoretically at least, be
supported by evidence. Each person is entitled to their preferences for
whatever reasons they like, but those don't serve to truly convince anyone
though :)
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Speaking of the dependency download capability, I just grabbed a copy of
the Ant dependencies task
(http://www.httpunit.org/doc/dependencies.html) and integrated into the
build script for JWP (doesn't require an install by the way, the
required JAR will come with JWP so no install into Ant dir required)...
so now I have that Maven benefit in Ant :) Of course, I have to submit
an upload to iBiblio later for CheckStyle 3.5 (the all-encompassing
JAR), but this is a nice addition.
Just wanted to mention that in case any other Ant folks out there want
that capability too... kind of ironic that it uses the Maven repository
by default :)
Frank
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> On 8/8/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I've seen comments for a while now how Maven is better than Ant... just a
>>few minutes ago James posted that Maven is "just smart software". I
>>didn't want to hijack that thread, hence this new one.
>
>
> Good plan, that :-).
>
> My biggest concerns about Maven aren't so much technological (although
> I don't personally find the tradeoffs of what I get in stuff that
> "just works" versus what I give up in flexibility). My biggest
> concern is what's historically gone on with the Maven community (which
> might or might not still be the case ... haven't tried to find out)
> vs-a-vs user friendliness and support, but (more currently) the
> upcoming Maven1 -> Maven2 migration -- or rewrite, if there isn't any
> help being provided.
>
> I don't have any projects I work on that require Maven (since the
> Jakarta Commons folks tend to do a "maven ant" and check in the
> build.xml file as needed). Ant is sufficient for my needs, so I'd
> prefer to keep my life simpler. The impact of Ant-based development
> on others can be addressed by improving support for downloading
> dependencies (yes, that is a feature that Maven provides, but is
> certainly not limited to Maven). Beyond that, Maven doesn't offer me
> anything I want that is particularly hard to add to a build script
> myself.
>
> Craig
>
> PS: And yes, Maven1->Maven2 has a lesson there for all of us
> proposing Struts 2 approaches that are not backwards compatible,
> without thinking through what the migration story might need to look
> like :-).
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
>
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com>.
> * People who have played with it, but have not done anything serious and
> therefore do not understand the payoff.
I am in this category. No shame in admitting that. I'd like more
information on what Maven fans think is so great about Maven.
Fully investigating a new technology takes time and energy away from
other tasks. So its only natural to ask those who are familiar with
the new technology to highlight the perceived advantages. If Maven
doesn't address anything that I perceive to be a problem then why
would I switch?
The key is to be open-minded about whether there is a better way to do
something. If there is a superior way to do something, I am open to a
switch (or at least investigating a switch.) But before I spend the
time converting several of my projects to Maven to see if its better,
lets hear a *few* (not all) of the reasons to do it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org>.
That seems to be a common theme. I just don't understand why people still
think they have to give up something to use Maven. Maven is 100% compatible
with Ant or whatever you are using. Maven is 100% compatible with your
current, past, or future file layout. You *don't* have to mold your project
layout to what Maven likes. Maven will gladly use whatever you have. I
guarantee that you cannot make a project layout that Maven can't build.
A while ago, Craig posted a very nice summary about the types of people
commenting on JSF. He basically outlined 3 scenarios. I can honestly say
that the same applies to Maven.
I don't remember word-for-word how it went, but it was something like
this...
* People who have not even looked at it, and simply repeat what they here
from other people (who might not have tried it either)
* People who have played with it, but have not done anything serious and
therefore do not understand the payoff.
* People who have tried it and can tell you *exactly* why they like or don't
like it.
While I'm in the last category, I'm not the one *doing* the work (this
time;)....so it's really up to you.
--
James Mitchell
Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist
Consulting / Mentoring / Freelance
EdgeTech, Inc.
http://www.edgetechservices.net/
678.910.8017
AIM: jmitchtx
MSN: jmitchell@apache.org
Skype: jmitchtx
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig McClanahan" <cr...@gmail.com>
To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
On 8/8/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've seen comments for a while now how Maven is better than Ant... just a
> few minutes ago James posted that Maven is "just smart software". I
> didn't want to hijack that thread, hence this new one.
Good plan, that :-).
My biggest concerns about Maven aren't so much technological (although
I don't personally find the tradeoffs of what I get in stuff that
"just works" versus what I give up in flexibility). My biggest
concern is what's historically gone on with the Maven community (which
might or might not still be the case ... haven't tried to find out)
vs-a-vs user friendliness and support, but (more currently) the
upcoming Maven1 -> Maven2 migration -- or rewrite, if there isn't any
help being provided.
I don't have any projects I work on that require Maven (since the
Jakarta Commons folks tend to do a "maven ant" and check in the
build.xml file as needed). Ant is sufficient for my needs, so I'd
prefer to keep my life simpler. The impact of Ant-based development
on others can be addressed by improving support for downloading
dependencies (yes, that is a feature that Maven provides, but is
certainly not limited to Maven). Beyond that, Maven doesn't offer me
anything I want that is particularly hard to add to a build script
myself.
Craig
PS: And yes, Maven1->Maven2 has a lesson there for all of us
proposing Struts 2 approaches that are not backwards compatible,
without thinking through what the migration story might need to look
like :-).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@gmail.com>.
On 8/8/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've seen comments for a while now how Maven is better than Ant... just a
> few minutes ago James posted that Maven is "just smart software". I
> didn't want to hijack that thread, hence this new one.
Good plan, that :-).
My biggest concerns about Maven aren't so much technological (although
I don't personally find the tradeoffs of what I get in stuff that
"just works" versus what I give up in flexibility). My biggest
concern is what's historically gone on with the Maven community (which
might or might not still be the case ... haven't tried to find out)
vs-a-vs user friendliness and support, but (more currently) the
upcoming Maven1 -> Maven2 migration -- or rewrite, if there isn't any
help being provided.
I don't have any projects I work on that require Maven (since the
Jakarta Commons folks tend to do a "maven ant" and check in the
build.xml file as needed). Ant is sufficient for my needs, so I'd
prefer to keep my life simpler. The impact of Ant-based development
on others can be addressed by improving support for downloading
dependencies (yes, that is a feature that Maven provides, but is
certainly not limited to Maven). Beyond that, Maven doesn't offer me
anything I want that is particularly hard to add to a build script
myself.
Craig
PS: And yes, Maven1->Maven2 has a lesson there for all of us
proposing Struts 2 approaches that are not backwards compatible,
without thinking through what the migration story might need to look
like :-).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Greg Reddin <gr...@fnf.com>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
I'm not at all trying to start a flame war here, but I'd like to ask, can
> anyone enumerate some real, legitimate reasons, as far as you are
> concerned at least!, why Maven is better than Ant (or vice-versa if you
> feel that way).
I think "Maven is better than Ant" type statements are akin to saying
Java is better than C++. It's not necessarily a statement you can make
across the board. It's just dependent on what you are trying to do and how.
So to answer your question, I'll avoid that type of statement and simply
explain how it's been helpful to me.
1. In my day job we manage a lot of projects that depend on a lot of
3rd party jars. To add a dependency (like commons-digester) we have to
do the following:
* add the dependency to build.propertiesm as follows:
digester.jar=commons.digester-1.6.jar
* add the dependency to the classpath(s) in build.xml
* add the dependency to the "fetchDependencies" target in build.xml to
make sure it gets downloaded.
With maven I simply add a <dependency> tag in project.xml and I'm done.
2. I was working on a project a couple years back where a lot of people
wanted to download and get going. When I was using ant I had to write a
document that explained where all the dependencies were and how to
download them, etc. When I switched to maven, my doc changed to
something like this:
"Install maven according to the installation instructions, switch to the
directory where the code exists and type 'maven'."
It downloaded all dependencies and built the whole project from scratch,
creating deployable artifacts (including web-based documentation). All
I had to do to set it all up was edit a simple project.xml. I could've
done it all with ant, but it would've taken me a much longer time to set up.
3. If you do this a lot, creating new projects is a breeze. Sure, it
could be a breeze with ant if I set everything up, but Maven already has
it set up for me. I just type maven genapp and I'm done.
4. Common things like jar, war, ear, junit, etc. are more easily
defined (IMO) in Maven than in Ant. IOW, it requires less handcoding of
the build script.
5. Multi-project integration is very simple with Maven in my experience.
6. I like the way maven allows me to customize the properties better
than ant. It seems less intrusive to the project artifacts.
None of these things are impossible to do with Ant and none of them are
terribly difficult. But in Maven they are basically already done for
me. As long as I can live with the way maven wants to organize my
project I have to do very little to make things work -- I don't mean I
have to write a lot of easy Ant XML code; I mean I don't have to do
very much *at all.* And I've found that I can usually live with the
way Maven organizes the project. But all that's based on my experience
and I'm sure others have different experience.
Greg
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] The standards curve (was Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Ed Griebel <ed...@gmail.com>.
Ted-
You're exactly right about not being able to turn on a dime. At my
current client, the team I work with has been doing struts for about 1
1/2 years and have made an investment in tools and training. It would
be difficult (aka "politicial suicide") for someone to suggest turning
the ship around and use a different web framework without being able
to guarantee productivity gains, etc., whatever framework it is.
(Oddly enough, that seems to be ignored when organizations decide to
go with .Net, but I digress...) And, once that is done, all the Struts
Classic systems become "legacy", and some developer(s) will need to
know the old and the new too. Not that these tradeoffs are anything
new, though. Also, I don't think it's going out on a limb to say that
there are currently far more Struts developers than JSF too, although
that will probably change going forward.
It's a great way you/McConnel put it about how people code "into"
Struts too. From what I've seen, new developers don't see problems
with putting all the business logic in the Action classes. It's only
when they need to maintain the code or call it from different places
that they realize the error in it, so it takes a couple of
applications before people truly understand why it's a bad idea.
Hmm, this wasn't intended to be a rant, sorry if it reads like one,
just a "view from the trenches."
-ed
On 8/9/05, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But, the teams I've worked with can't turn on a dime. A lot of people
> now have years of work invested in Struts Classic applications. As far
> as I know, the migration path from Struts to Shale is not lined with
> gold.
>
> My own hope for Struts 1.3.x and beyond is that people will begin to
> see CoR as a great way to provide the missing link between business
> logic and the presentation layer. If we can get people to do less in
> Struts Actions, and more in Commons Commands, it will become much
> easier for teams to migrate to newer platforms, like Shale, in the
> future.
>
> The promise of a MVC architecture has always been to cleanly separate
> the application from the presentation, but so many people still seem
> to be developing ~with~ Struts rather than *into* Struts (to use Steve
> McConnell's terms).
>
> -Ted.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
[OT] The standards curve (was Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 8/8/05, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
> Very well said Ted. I was initially opposed to moving Struts over to Maven
> (way back when) more out of the frustration of having to learn another tool.
> While there is not (and probably never will be) a standard for build tools,
> with enough time and trial, the payoff for using Maven became *very* clear
> to me. And I quickly became a convert (almost an evangelist;). And, funny
> enough, I think the same is happening with my view on JSF ;) although slowed
> by work commitments of course.....who knows, maybe one day I'll say "Struts
> is old school", but right now, it is blazing hot!!
I'd definately agree it's the same pattern. And, if it were as easy to
migrate an enterprise web application as it is to migrate a build
system, I'd be encouraging everyone to switch to JSF, so that we can
work together to make it a truly great platform.
But, the teams I've worked with can't turn on a dime. A lot of people
now have years of work invested in Struts Classic applications. As far
as I know, the migration path from Struts to Shale is not lined with
gold.
My own hope for Struts 1.3.x and beyond is that people will begin to
see CoR as a great way to provide the missing link between business
logic and the presentation layer. If we can get people to do less in
Struts Actions, and more in Commons Commands, it will become much
easier for teams to migrate to newer platforms, like Shale, in the
future.
The promise of a MVC architecture has always been to cleanly separate
the application from the presentation, but so many people still seem
to be developing ~with~ Struts rather than *into* Struts (to use Steve
McConnell's terms).
-Ted.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com>.
I do see the dependency advantage but as Craig mentioned, Maven isn't
the only way to manage this.
James figured out a nifty way to handle this through a
"download-dependencies" target in ant. He showed me how this works in
Struts and now we're using this approach in MyFaces. Once I saw this
technique my enthusiasm for Maven was somewhat diminished I'm pretty
sure this was not the intended effect as James is a big Maven
supporter :-)
Ted mentioned the simplicity of the Strus build. The MyFaces build
(using Ant) is just as simple.
svn co https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/myfaces/current myfaces-current
cd myfaces-current/build
ant dist-all
That's arguably even simpler than Maven builds because most developers
already have Ant installed and configured. Its certainly no more
complicated.
I'm not even sure the situation changes when you have lots of
projects. If you want to maintain a local repository of jar files you
can do that in a your home directory or wherever and then just tweak
the build.properties file to point to that location.
I guess that last step I mentioned (the tweaking) is eliminated using
Maven. I guess Maven provides a standard way of identifying *local*
jar files on your machine. The remote files in the Maven repository
though, can be used by Ant just as easily.
sean
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org>.
Very well said Ted. I was initially opposed to moving Struts over to Maven
(way back when) more out of the frustration of having to learn another tool.
While there is not (and probably never will be) a standard for build tools,
with enough time and trial, the payoff for using Maven became *very* clear
to me. And I quickly became a convert (almost an evangelist;). And, funny
enough, I think the same is happening with my view on JSF ;) although slowed
by work commitments of course.....who knows, maybe one day I'll say "Struts
is old school", but right now, it is blazing hot!!
--
James Mitchell
Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist
Consulting / Mentoring / Freelance
EdgeTech, Inc.
http://www.edgetechservices.net/
678.910.8017
AIM: jmitchtx
MSN: jmitchell@apache.org
Skype: jmitchtx
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Husted" <te...@gmail.com>
To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
On 8/8/05, Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I too am trying to keep an open mind about Maven. I see there are
> some nice benefits but I keep thinking that Ant can already do most of
> what is promised. I'd like to hear more about what Maven has to offer
> before I ditch all of my hard earned Ant knowledge.
The major benefits are realized when you are using Maven for more than
one project.
If you are working on one project, with one set of dependencies, then
it's not going to matter much.
If you are working on a dozen projects, each with its own set of
dependencies, then having a common build system makes a huge
difference.
Sure, the Struts team can write a Ant build file that does what Maven
does. So can the MyFaces team. So can any development team. But, each
one would be a little bit different, and we have to learn how to twist
the lug nuts a little bit differently every where we go.
Personally, I think Maven is to Java build systems what JSF is to Java
applications: A way we can stop doing the same thing differently and
start building a unified framework.
I just wish web applications were as easy to migrate as build systems :)
-Ted.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 8/8/05, Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I too am trying to keep an open mind about Maven. I see there are
> some nice benefits but I keep thinking that Ant can already do most of
> what is promised. I'd like to hear more about what Maven has to offer
> before I ditch all of my hard earned Ant knowledge.
The major benefits are realized when you are using Maven for more than
one project.
If you are working on one project, with one set of dependencies, then
it's not going to matter much.
If you are working on a dozen projects, each with its own set of
dependencies, then having a common build system makes a huge
difference.
Sure, the Struts team can write a Ant build file that does what Maven
does. So can the MyFaces team. So can any development team. But, each
one would be a little bit different, and we have to learn how to twist
the lug nuts a little bit differently every where we go.
Personally, I think Maven is to Java build systems what JSF is to Java
applications: A way we can stop doing the same thing differently and
start building a unified framework.
I just wish web applications were as easy to migrate as build systems :)
-Ted.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com>.
I too am trying to keep an open mind about Maven. I see there are
some nice benefits but I keep thinking that Ant can already do most of
what is promised. I'd like to hear more about what Maven has to offer
before I ditch all of my hard earned Ant knowledge.
sean
On 8/8/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've seen comments for a while now how Maven is better than Ant... just a
> few minutes ago James posted that Maven is "just smart software". I
> didn't want to hijack that thread, hence this new one.
>
> I'm not at all trying to start a flame war here, but I'd like to ask, can
> anyone enumerate some real, legitimate reasons, as far as you are
> concerned at least!, why Maven is better than Ant (or vice-versa if you
> feel that way).
>
> I'm personally quite comfortable with Ant... it does everything I ask of
> it without feeling like its fighting me... I write all my scripts by hand
> and I don't feel at all like that's a burden, in fact it feels like the
> power is right where it is supposed to be: with me.
>
> Maven, in my admittedly very limited exposure to it, has seemed confusing
> and rather overwhelming. Anything of even moderate complexity and power
> feels like that for a while and I recognize that, but I'm trying to decide
> if I truly would gain enough to make the learning curve worth it, and to
> perhaps ultimately try and convince people at work to do so as well.
>
> What will I actually gain, what benefits will I derive? I'm looking for
> real, concrete things, things which could, theoretically at least, be
> supported by evidence. Each person is entitled to their preferences for
> whatever reasons they like, but those don't serve to truly convince anyone
> though :)
>
> --
> Frank W. Zammetti
> Founder and Chief Software Architect
> Omnytex Technologies
> http://www.omnytex.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 8/8/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> What I mean is, your 100% right, it *is* very easy with Maven... I got
> Struts to built pretty easily, my biggest problem as I recall was
> needing to set the proxy settings to get to the repository to download
> dependencies... But it's just as easy with Ant, so this scenario,
> unless I'm missing something, isn't really in eithers' favor :)
The huge missing link that Maven provides is a standard way to define
dependencies and a standard way to share those dependencies between
projects, and keeps the dependencies updated, automatically.
I lived through the bad old days of trying to keep the local Ant
property files synched up with the latest changes *and* sniffing out
which JARs to download. Unless your system exactly mirrored whoever
setup the example file, or the JARs were checked into the repository,
keeping a development system up to date is a nasty time sink.
Especially, when you are involved with *multiple* open source
projects, as many of us are.
But, again, the priorities of an open source team with dozens of
contributors that come and go, and dependencies on thirteen products
from nine teams, will be different than a closed team with a stable
staff and few dependencies.
Maven is a nice fit with our priorities, but your priorities may differ.
-Ted.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
I wouldn't think this is an argument for Maven though... I mean, as an
example:
* Download Java Web Parts and extract the source distribution
* Install Java and set JAVA_HOME
* Install Ant and set ANT_HOME
* Change to Java Web Parts /web-inf/src folder in the source distribution
* $ ant
Better still, if you extracted to /tomcat/webapps, you can start it up
at this point and your running, on your way to becoming a JWP
contributor :) Want to use an IDE? No problem (I set it up in IDEA
last night).
What I mean is, your 100% right, it *is* very easy with Maven... I got
Struts to built pretty easily, my biggest problem as I recall was
needing to set the proxy settings to get to the repository to download
dependencies... But it's just as easy with Ant, so this scenario,
unless I'm missing something, isn't really in eithers' favor :)
Frank
Ted Husted wrote:
> As mentioned on the Struts Classic 1.3.0 RP, this is literally all you
> will have to do to get a Struts development system running on a new
> machine *from scratch*.
>
> * Download and extract the Struts 1.3.0 source distribution
> * Install Java and set JAVA_HOME
> * Install Maven and set MAVEN_HOME
> * Change to the Struts Build folder in the source distribution
> * $ maven
>
> Garnish with your favorite container and IDE, and, shazzam, you're on
> your way to becoming a Struts contributor.
>
> 'nuff said. :)
>
> -T.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
>
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
As mentioned on the Struts Classic 1.3.0 RP, this is literally all you
will have to do to get a Struts development system running on a new
machine *from scratch*.
* Download and extract the Struts 1.3.0 source distribution
* Install Java and set JAVA_HOME
* Install Maven and set MAVEN_HOME
* Change to the Struts Build folder in the source distribution
* $ maven
Garnish with your favorite container and IDE, and, shazzam, you're on
your way to becoming a Struts contributor.
'nuff said. :)
-T.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Joe Germuska <Jo...@Germuska.com>.
>I have also heard that Maven can generate IDE specific project files
>automatically. Has this been attempted with Struts? That is
>something Ant definitely cannot do, and that would be a definite plus
>for new developers who want to contribute patches, etc. It takes
>quite a while to setup a proper JBuilder project file for instance ...
This is probably my A#1 favorite feature of Maven. It works like a
charm for Eclipse and JBuilder. With nominal extra effort on my
part, newer releases of the Maven Eclipse plugin also link in
source-code archives, which is fantastic for navigating code and
getting code completion to use the "right" parameter names, etc.
Joe
--
Joe Germuska
Joe@Germuska.com
http://blog.germuska.com
"Narrow minds are weapons made for mass destruction" -The Ex
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com>.
I still don't see how much Ant does for you over Maven but I agree
with Ted's point about standardization. I think that is probably the
most compelling reason. Ironically, the real benefit of Maven won't
be realized until more projects adopt Maven. If the Struts developers
are comfortable with Maven, then this makes me a little more
interested b/c the MyFaces project works closely with these folks.
Ant gives you plenty of things out of the box as well. You can use a
forrest task to build your website, you use javadoc task to generate
your javadoc, junit to run your unit tests (and generate reports.) As
for Maven generating your Ant script, I'm a little skeptical that it
could handle a really complex Ant script like we are using now in
MyFaces. But now that James is a committer on that project, I'm sure
he will start to research this once he gets a little free time ;-)
I have also heard that Maven can generate IDE specific project files
automatically. Has this been attempted with Struts? That is
something Ant definitely cannot do, and that would be a definite plus
for new developers who want to contribute patches, etc. It takes
quite a while to setup a proper JBuilder project file for instance ...
Thanks for the insight. You've convinced me to take yet another look.
(This reminds me of JSF which I kept looking into and then coming
back to several times before really embracing it.)
sean
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com>.
On 8/8/05, Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How is Maven with deploying to Tomcat? I've always found that part of
> Ant to be a bit cumbersome. If cactus is much easier, it sounds like
> your Tomcat experience in general is much easier. Is that true? What
> about support for other app servers?
Yes, that's what I mean. If I recall correctly, all I had to do was
add a property to the project.properties file, telling Maven where
Tomcat lives, and that was it. There are different properties for
different versions of Tomcat, so you can have the tests run on
multiple versions just by setting the appropriate properties.
Last time I checked, Maven had built-in support for running Cactus
tests on Tomcat, Resin, JBoss, Orion and WebLogic. I've only tried
Tomcat myself.
--
Martin Cooper
> sean
>
> On 8/8/05, Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Oh, one more I forgot. Adding Cactus tests for your Ant app is a pain
> > if you do it properly, as evidenced by all the targets in the old
> > Struts Ant build files. And I had loads of problems keeping them all
> > running. With Maven, Cactus support is virtually free. The first time
> > I tried it on a project, all I did was put my test cases in the
> > default location, and everything just worked. Awesome!
> >
> > --
> > Martin Cooper
> >
> >
> > On 8/8/05, Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Maven does an astonishing amount of work for you. As evidence, I
> > > suggest looking at the generated Ant build file from a simple Maven
> > > project.xml file, and thinking about how long it would take you to
> > > write all of that functionality if you're writing the Ant build.xml
> > > file by hand. As further evidence, I suggest looking at a
> > > Maven-generated web site and seeing just how much is generated for you
> > > from very little that you actually had to write, with all of the
> > > links, reports, and auto-generated documentation.
> > >
> > > All of this, of course, *could* be done with Ant. But do you really
> > > want to spend your volunteer time writing boatloads of Ant build
> > > script when you could just let Maven do it all for you? And when Maven
> > > can generate an Ant build file for you anyway, so the folks who want
> > > to use Ant can still do so?
> > >
> > > And then there'e the reusability. If you hand code an Ant build file,
> > > will you really take the time to ensure that all of those targets
> > > could be reused on a new project in a couple of months? Probably not.
> > > On the next project, you'll go through the same process all over
> > > again. With Maven, you can usually just copy an existing project.xml
> > > and tweak a couple of values, and you're done; the rest still comes
> > > free, right out of the box.
> > >
> > > I used to be a "forget Maven, I know Ant and don't want to change"
> > > kinda guy, but once I really started using Maven, I realised what I
> > > had been missing before. It's a lot like the way many people thought
> > > about Subversion before the move - whining about no real point in
> > > moving away from CVS, and then finally overjoyed at what they found
> > > when they finally started using Subversion for real. Except with
> > > Maven, it's even better, because people can still use that
> > > auto-generated Ant build file if they want.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Martin Cooper
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8/8/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I've seen comments for a while now how Maven is better than Ant... just a
> > > > few minutes ago James posted that Maven is "just smart software". I
> > > > didn't want to hijack that thread, hence this new one.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not at all trying to start a flame war here, but I'd like to ask, can
> > > > anyone enumerate some real, legitimate reasons, as far as you are
> > > > concerned at least!, why Maven is better than Ant (or vice-versa if you
> > > > feel that way).
> > > >
> > > > I'm personally quite comfortable with Ant... it does everything I ask of
> > > > it without feeling like its fighting me... I write all my scripts by hand
> > > > and I don't feel at all like that's a burden, in fact it feels like the
> > > > power is right where it is supposed to be: with me.
> > > >
> > > > Maven, in my admittedly very limited exposure to it, has seemed confusing
> > > > and rather overwhelming. Anything of even moderate complexity and power
> > > > feels like that for a while and I recognize that, but I'm trying to decide
> > > > if I truly would gain enough to make the learning curve worth it, and to
> > > > perhaps ultimately try and convince people at work to do so as well.
> > > >
> > > > What will I actually gain, what benefits will I derive? I'm looking for
> > > > real, concrete things, things which could, theoretically at least, be
> > > > supported by evidence. Each person is entitled to their preferences for
> > > > whatever reasons they like, but those don't serve to truly convince anyone
> > > > though :)
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Frank W. Zammetti
> > > > Founder and Chief Software Architect
> > > > Omnytex Technologies
> > > > http://www.omnytex.com
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Joe Germuska <Jo...@Germuska.com>.
At 11:04 PM -0400 8/8/05, Sean Schofield wrote:
>How is Maven with deploying to Tomcat? I've always found that part of
>Ant to be a bit cumbersome. If cactus is much easier, it sounds like
>your Tomcat experience in general is much easier. Is that true? What
>about support for other app servers?
I've been using the CodeCzar Tomcat plugin for some time now, and I
find it extremely effective with Maven. I just had to define these
four properties in my root-level "build.properties" (which is shared
among all Maven projects):
maven.tomcat.username
maven.tomcat.password
maven.tomcat.port (I don't use 8080)
maven.tomcat.precompile=false
(the last is a matter of choice, but the default is true and I think
precompiling would add more startup to my redeploy approach than I'd
want.)
See http://www.codeczar.com/products/maven-tomcat-plugin/index.html
Joe
>sean
>
>On 8/8/05, Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Oh, one more I forgot. Adding Cactus tests for your Ant app is a pain
>> if you do it properly, as evidenced by all the targets in the old
>> Struts Ant build files. And I had loads of problems keeping them all
>> running. With Maven, Cactus support is virtually free. The first time
>> I tried it on a project, all I did was put my test cases in the
>> default location, and everything just worked. Awesome!
>>
>> --
>> Martin Cooper
>>
>>
>> On 8/8/05, Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Maven does an astonishing amount of work for you. As evidence, I
>> > suggest looking at the generated Ant build file from a simple Maven
>> > project.xml file, and thinking about how long it would take you to
>> > write all of that functionality if you're writing the Ant build.xml
>> > file by hand. As further evidence, I suggest looking at a
>> > Maven-generated web site and seeing just how much is generated for you
>> > from very little that you actually had to write, with all of the
>> > links, reports, and auto-generated documentation.
>> >
>> > All of this, of course, *could* be done with Ant. But do you really
>> > want to spend your volunteer time writing boatloads of Ant build
>> > script when you could just let Maven do it all for you? And when Maven
>> > can generate an Ant build file for you anyway, so the folks who want
>> > to use Ant can still do so?
>> >
>> > And then there'e the reusability. If you hand code an Ant build file,
>> > will you really take the time to ensure that all of those targets
>> > could be reused on a new project in a couple of months? Probably not.
>> > On the next project, you'll go through the same process all over
>> > again. With Maven, you can usually just copy an existing project.xml
>> > and tweak a couple of values, and you're done; the rest still comes
>> > free, right out of the box.
>> >
>> > I used to be a "forget Maven, I know Ant and don't want to change"
>> > kinda guy, but once I really started using Maven, I realised what I
>> > had been missing before. It's a lot like the way many people thought
>> > about Subversion before the move - whining about no real point in
>> > moving away from CVS, and then finally overjoyed at what they found
>> > when they finally started using Subversion for real. Except with
>> > Maven, it's even better, because people can still use that
>> > auto-generated Ant build file if they want.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Martin Cooper
>> >
>> >
>> > On 8/8/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>> > > Hi all,
>> > >
>> > > I've seen comments for a while now how Maven is better than
>>Ant... just a
>> > > few minutes ago James posted that Maven is "just smart software". I
>> > > didn't want to hijack that thread, hence this new one.
>> > >
>> > > I'm not at all trying to start a flame war here, but I'd like
>>to ask, can
>> > > anyone enumerate some real, legitimate reasons, as far as you are
>> > > concerned at least!, why Maven is better than Ant (or vice-versa if you
>> > > feel that way).
> > > >
>> > > I'm personally quite comfortable with Ant... it does everything I ask of
>> > > it without feeling like its fighting me... I write all my
>>scripts by hand
>> > > and I don't feel at all like that's a burden, in fact it feels like the
>> > > power is right where it is supposed to be: with me.
>> > >
>> > > Maven, in my admittedly very limited exposure to it, has
>>seemed confusing
>> > > and rather overwhelming. Anything of even moderate complexity and power
>> > > feels like that for a while and I recognize that, but I'm
>>trying to decide
>> > > if I truly would gain enough to make the learning curve worth it, and to
>> > > perhaps ultimately try and convince people at work to do so as well.
>> > >
>> > > What will I actually gain, what benefits will I derive? I'm looking for
>> > > real, concrete things, things which could, theoretically at least, be
>> > > supported by evidence. Each person is entitled to their preferences for
>> > > whatever reasons they like, but those don't serve to truly
>>convince anyone
>> > > though :)
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Frank W. Zammetti
>> > > Founder and Chief Software Architect
>> > > Omnytex Technologies
>> > > http://www.omnytex.com
>> > >
>> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
--
Joe Germuska
Joe@Germuska.com
http://blog.germuska.com
"Narrow minds are weapons made for mass destruction" -The Ex
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com>.
How is Maven with deploying to Tomcat? I've always found that part of
Ant to be a bit cumbersome. If cactus is much easier, it sounds like
your Tomcat experience in general is much easier. Is that true? What
about support for other app servers?
sean
On 8/8/05, Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh, one more I forgot. Adding Cactus tests for your Ant app is a pain
> if you do it properly, as evidenced by all the targets in the old
> Struts Ant build files. And I had loads of problems keeping them all
> running. With Maven, Cactus support is virtually free. The first time
> I tried it on a project, all I did was put my test cases in the
> default location, and everything just worked. Awesome!
>
> --
> Martin Cooper
>
>
> On 8/8/05, Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Maven does an astonishing amount of work for you. As evidence, I
> > suggest looking at the generated Ant build file from a simple Maven
> > project.xml file, and thinking about how long it would take you to
> > write all of that functionality if you're writing the Ant build.xml
> > file by hand. As further evidence, I suggest looking at a
> > Maven-generated web site and seeing just how much is generated for you
> > from very little that you actually had to write, with all of the
> > links, reports, and auto-generated documentation.
> >
> > All of this, of course, *could* be done with Ant. But do you really
> > want to spend your volunteer time writing boatloads of Ant build
> > script when you could just let Maven do it all for you? And when Maven
> > can generate an Ant build file for you anyway, so the folks who want
> > to use Ant can still do so?
> >
> > And then there'e the reusability. If you hand code an Ant build file,
> > will you really take the time to ensure that all of those targets
> > could be reused on a new project in a couple of months? Probably not.
> > On the next project, you'll go through the same process all over
> > again. With Maven, you can usually just copy an existing project.xml
> > and tweak a couple of values, and you're done; the rest still comes
> > free, right out of the box.
> >
> > I used to be a "forget Maven, I know Ant and don't want to change"
> > kinda guy, but once I really started using Maven, I realised what I
> > had been missing before. It's a lot like the way many people thought
> > about Subversion before the move - whining about no real point in
> > moving away from CVS, and then finally overjoyed at what they found
> > when they finally started using Subversion for real. Except with
> > Maven, it's even better, because people can still use that
> > auto-generated Ant build file if they want.
> >
> > --
> > Martin Cooper
> >
> >
> > On 8/8/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I've seen comments for a while now how Maven is better than Ant... just a
> > > few minutes ago James posted that Maven is "just smart software". I
> > > didn't want to hijack that thread, hence this new one.
> > >
> > > I'm not at all trying to start a flame war here, but I'd like to ask, can
> > > anyone enumerate some real, legitimate reasons, as far as you are
> > > concerned at least!, why Maven is better than Ant (or vice-versa if you
> > > feel that way).
> > >
> > > I'm personally quite comfortable with Ant... it does everything I ask of
> > > it without feeling like its fighting me... I write all my scripts by hand
> > > and I don't feel at all like that's a burden, in fact it feels like the
> > > power is right where it is supposed to be: with me.
> > >
> > > Maven, in my admittedly very limited exposure to it, has seemed confusing
> > > and rather overwhelming. Anything of even moderate complexity and power
> > > feels like that for a while and I recognize that, but I'm trying to decide
> > > if I truly would gain enough to make the learning curve worth it, and to
> > > perhaps ultimately try and convince people at work to do so as well.
> > >
> > > What will I actually gain, what benefits will I derive? I'm looking for
> > > real, concrete things, things which could, theoretically at least, be
> > > supported by evidence. Each person is entitled to their preferences for
> > > whatever reasons they like, but those don't serve to truly convince anyone
> > > though :)
> > >
> > > --
> > > Frank W. Zammetti
> > > Founder and Chief Software Architect
> > > Omnytex Technologies
> > > http://www.omnytex.com
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com>.
Oh, one more I forgot. Adding Cactus tests for your Ant app is a pain
if you do it properly, as evidenced by all the targets in the old
Struts Ant build files. And I had loads of problems keeping them all
running. With Maven, Cactus support is virtually free. The first time
I tried it on a project, all I did was put my test cases in the
default location, and everything just worked. Awesome!
--
Martin Cooper
On 8/8/05, Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maven does an astonishing amount of work for you. As evidence, I
> suggest looking at the generated Ant build file from a simple Maven
> project.xml file, and thinking about how long it would take you to
> write all of that functionality if you're writing the Ant build.xml
> file by hand. As further evidence, I suggest looking at a
> Maven-generated web site and seeing just how much is generated for you
> from very little that you actually had to write, with all of the
> links, reports, and auto-generated documentation.
>
> All of this, of course, *could* be done with Ant. But do you really
> want to spend your volunteer time writing boatloads of Ant build
> script when you could just let Maven do it all for you? And when Maven
> can generate an Ant build file for you anyway, so the folks who want
> to use Ant can still do so?
>
> And then there'e the reusability. If you hand code an Ant build file,
> will you really take the time to ensure that all of those targets
> could be reused on a new project in a couple of months? Probably not.
> On the next project, you'll go through the same process all over
> again. With Maven, you can usually just copy an existing project.xml
> and tweak a couple of values, and you're done; the rest still comes
> free, right out of the box.
>
> I used to be a "forget Maven, I know Ant and don't want to change"
> kinda guy, but once I really started using Maven, I realised what I
> had been missing before. It's a lot like the way many people thought
> about Subversion before the move - whining about no real point in
> moving away from CVS, and then finally overjoyed at what they found
> when they finally started using Subversion for real. Except with
> Maven, it's even better, because people can still use that
> auto-generated Ant build file if they want.
>
> --
> Martin Cooper
>
>
> On 8/8/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I've seen comments for a while now how Maven is better than Ant... just a
> > few minutes ago James posted that Maven is "just smart software". I
> > didn't want to hijack that thread, hence this new one.
> >
> > I'm not at all trying to start a flame war here, but I'd like to ask, can
> > anyone enumerate some real, legitimate reasons, as far as you are
> > concerned at least!, why Maven is better than Ant (or vice-versa if you
> > feel that way).
> >
> > I'm personally quite comfortable with Ant... it does everything I ask of
> > it without feeling like its fighting me... I write all my scripts by hand
> > and I don't feel at all like that's a burden, in fact it feels like the
> > power is right where it is supposed to be: with me.
> >
> > Maven, in my admittedly very limited exposure to it, has seemed confusing
> > and rather overwhelming. Anything of even moderate complexity and power
> > feels like that for a while and I recognize that, but I'm trying to decide
> > if I truly would gain enough to make the learning curve worth it, and to
> > perhaps ultimately try and convince people at work to do so as well.
> >
> > What will I actually gain, what benefits will I derive? I'm looking for
> > real, concrete things, things which could, theoretically at least, be
> > supported by evidence. Each person is entitled to their preferences for
> > whatever reasons they like, but those don't serve to truly convince anyone
> > though :)
> >
> > --
> > Frank W. Zammetti
> > Founder and Chief Software Architect
> > Omnytex Technologies
> > http://www.omnytex.com
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Ant vs. Maven - convince me! :)
Posted by Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com>.
Maven does an astonishing amount of work for you. As evidence, I
suggest looking at the generated Ant build file from a simple Maven
project.xml file, and thinking about how long it would take you to
write all of that functionality if you're writing the Ant build.xml
file by hand. As further evidence, I suggest looking at a
Maven-generated web site and seeing just how much is generated for you
from very little that you actually had to write, with all of the
links, reports, and auto-generated documentation.
All of this, of course, *could* be done with Ant. But do you really
want to spend your volunteer time writing boatloads of Ant build
script when you could just let Maven do it all for you? And when Maven
can generate an Ant build file for you anyway, so the folks who want
to use Ant can still do so?
And then there'e the reusability. If you hand code an Ant build file,
will you really take the time to ensure that all of those targets
could be reused on a new project in a couple of months? Probably not.
On the next project, you'll go through the same process all over
again. With Maven, you can usually just copy an existing project.xml
and tweak a couple of values, and you're done; the rest still comes
free, right out of the box.
I used to be a "forget Maven, I know Ant and don't want to change"
kinda guy, but once I really started using Maven, I realised what I
had been missing before. It's a lot like the way many people thought
about Subversion before the move - whining about no real point in
moving away from CVS, and then finally overjoyed at what they found
when they finally started using Subversion for real. Except with
Maven, it's even better, because people can still use that
auto-generated Ant build file if they want.
--
Martin Cooper
On 8/8/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've seen comments for a while now how Maven is better than Ant... just a
> few minutes ago James posted that Maven is "just smart software". I
> didn't want to hijack that thread, hence this new one.
>
> I'm not at all trying to start a flame war here, but I'd like to ask, can
> anyone enumerate some real, legitimate reasons, as far as you are
> concerned at least!, why Maven is better than Ant (or vice-versa if you
> feel that way).
>
> I'm personally quite comfortable with Ant... it does everything I ask of
> it without feeling like its fighting me... I write all my scripts by hand
> and I don't feel at all like that's a burden, in fact it feels like the
> power is right where it is supposed to be: with me.
>
> Maven, in my admittedly very limited exposure to it, has seemed confusing
> and rather overwhelming. Anything of even moderate complexity and power
> feels like that for a while and I recognize that, but I'm trying to decide
> if I truly would gain enough to make the learning curve worth it, and to
> perhaps ultimately try and convince people at work to do so as well.
>
> What will I actually gain, what benefits will I derive? I'm looking for
> real, concrete things, things which could, theoretically at least, be
> supported by evidence. Each person is entitled to their preferences for
> whatever reasons they like, but those don't serve to truly convince anyone
> though :)
>
> --
> Frank W. Zammetti
> Founder and Chief Software Architect
> Omnytex Technologies
> http://www.omnytex.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org