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Posted to users@maven.apache.org by Borut Bolčina <bo...@gmail.com> on 2007/12/20 21:46:11 UTC
Don't kill the messenger
Anybody saw this post?
http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/
Unfortunately the author, Charles Miller <cm...@pastiche.org>, disabled
the comments to prevent spam. Hmmm.
Regards,
Borut
Re: Don't kill the messenger
Posted by Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de>.
--- Jan Torben Heuer <jt...@mail2003.dnsalias.org> schrieb:
> Yes, traversing a tree is like magic...
Not if there are multiple references to e.g. the same artifact but with different versions, etc...
In real live this can be really beasty.
LieGrü,
strub
Jetzt Mails schnell in einem Vorschaufenster überfliegen. Dies und viel mehr bietet das neue Yahoo! Mail - www.yahoo.de/mail
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Re: Don't kill the messenger
Posted by Jan Torben Heuer <jt...@mail2003.dnsalias.org>.
Borut Bolčina wrote:
> Anybody saw this post?
>
> http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/
Its quite polemic:
|Tracking down dependencies and sorting out their transitive relationships
|is a tricky task
Yes, traversing a tree is like magic...
JT
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Re: Don't kill the messenger
Posted by Steinar Bang <sb...@dod.no>.
>>>>> "Borut Bolčina" <bo...@gmail.com>:
> Anybody saw this post?
> http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/
I came in four days later. Presumably y'all are talking about this
article:
http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/2007/12/20/maven_broken_by_design
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Re: Don't kill the messenger
Posted by Wayne Fay <wa...@gmail.com>.
You could solve your "first run of Maven every day is slow" issue by
creating a cron job to run "mvn depedency:go-offline" on your
project(s) at 6am every day.
Right now, having multiple threads of Maven running at the same time
using the same local repo cache is a bad idea. A few new
implementations have been discussed on dev@ and I imagine we'll see
some changes there at some point.
Wayne
On 12/20/07, Johannes Schneider <jo...@familieschneider.info> wrote:
> Some points are really problematic with Maven. Every day the first usage
> of maven on each project is really slow. I would like some sort of
> improvement with this.
>
> What about adding the possibility to download commonly used plugins
> after installation (just a script...).
>
> What about preparing some scripts (that can be used as cronjob or at
> boot time) that resolve some dependencies in the background?
> Adding some intelligence should be possible.
>
> What about using several threads to look for library updates?
> What about setting shorter timeouts (ever tried to use maven if a
> repository is not available?)
>
>
> This are small improvements that don't change the internals or
> principles of maven but could improve my user experience a lot.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Johannes Schneider
>
> Borut Bolčina wrote:
> > Anybody saw this post?
> >
> > http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/
> >
> > Unfortunately the author, Charles Miller <cm...@pastiche.org>, disabled
> > the comments to prevent spam. Hmmm.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Borut
>
>
>
Re: Don't kill the messenger
Posted by Johannes Schneider <jo...@familieschneider.info>.
Some points are really problematic with Maven. Every day the first usage
of maven on each project is really slow. I would like some sort of
improvement with this.
What about adding the possibility to download commonly used plugins
after installation (just a script...).
What about preparing some scripts (that can be used as cronjob or at
boot time) that resolve some dependencies in the background?
Adding some intelligence should be possible.
What about using several threads to look for library updates?
What about setting shorter timeouts (ever tried to use maven if a
repository is not available?)
This are small improvements that don't change the internals or
principles of maven but could improve my user experience a lot.
Regards,
Johannes Schneider
Borut Bolčina wrote:
> Anybody saw this post?
>
> http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/
>
> Unfortunately the author, Charles Miller <cm...@pastiche.org>, disabled
> the comments to prevent spam. Hmmm.
>
> Regards,
> Borut
Re: Don't kill the messenger
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@maven.org>.
On 20 Dec 07, at 2:58 PM 20 Dec 07, Don Brown wrote:
> On Dec 21, 2007 8:38 AM, Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de> wrote:
>> This must obviously be a guy who never had a build with more than
>> one single module. So he never
>> learned that it is NOT a good idea to keep all dependencies in
>> every single module ;)
>
> causing lots of user complaints. Anytime you have your build depend
> on external resources, you introduce a point of failure that is
> particularly dangerous when you try to support old releases that may
> be many years old.
Bingo. This is where some research into how you are using your tools
pays off. I refrained from responding to the blog because it's really
pretty embarrassing if that's how you have your system setup and
you're making your developers suffer by "downloading the internet".
No enterprise in their right mind uses Maven's central repository
directly. The central repository is a great convenience not a
requirement. Tools like maven-proxy and Proximity have been around for
years, or people have managed their own repositories and that's worked
swimmingly well.
Would you stick your sources in an unreliable mechanism? No. Then why
do you have your system setup to get your dependencies from one?
Should we lock it down further? Maybe. Should we be more strict giving
out rsync rights? Probably.
Maven is not inextricably bound to Ibiblio (which is not the central
repository anymore), or Maven central (hosted by Contegix). We have
been a little too free in giving access and it's actually OSS groups
that generally hose all the users. It's not us, or that Maven does it.
We cannot control, for example, if the people from the Tomcat and Axis
projects don't understand what they are doing: they have done releases
based against ephemeral repositories, put those repositories in their
POMs, and then removed the repositories. Or, groups like Groovy
release different artifacts with the same version wreaking havoc.
Maybe we should guard the system more, but we cannot control all its
users who contribute to central.
> Yes, there are ways to mitigate that problem and
> yes, Atlassian uses Archiva to have more control over resources, but I
> believe Charles' point is it is still broken by design, despite the
> bandaids you stick on it.
>
I beg to differ and might suggest your team leads research the tools
they use a little better. There's nothing in Maven stopping you from
using entirely your own repositories and nothing but. You manage them,
you know what's there. If you want to use a repository manager, then
you do builds with proxy repositories check the build and then you're
fine. The last option is the wild west which is not a good idea.
The central repository by design is add-only, it always has been.
People who rsync against us don't always adhere to that policy. If
you're allowing your enterprise to depend directly on Maven central
with no mitigating repository manager (or at least a proxy which has
been available for a long time) then don't blame. We don't control the
internet, but you can control your own local area network. With a
repository manager caching the results of a successful build you
should only encounter problems due to recent changes, not the rug
getting pulled out from under you.
Honestly, the number of times we have switch the underlying
infrastructure has been twice. The first time in the transition from
Ibiblio to Contegix and there were some hiccups. The second transition
to put in a hot failover no one even noticed.
I grant you that transitive dependency problem are hard to track down.
The rest of the blog is complete nonsense.
If I had written a blog entry for every time JIRA or Confluence bagged
out on me without having and gone to do research (I was an early
adopter and support of both) I would have a lot of them. Most of the
time it was misconfiguration, my server setup wrong or something else
I was doing wrong.
> Don
>
> -- yes, I work for Atlassian (of whom I don't speak for) but my
> love/mostly hate affair with Maven extends back many years with
> Struts...just ask Wendy :)
>
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>
Thanks,
Jason
----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder, Apache Maven
jason at sonatype dot com
----------------------------------------------------------
Our achievements speak for themselves. What we have to keep track
of are our failures, discouragements and doubts. We tend to forget
the past difficulties, the many false starts, and the painful
groping. We see our past achievements as the end result of a
clean forward thrust, and our present difficulties as
signs of decline and decay.
-- Eric Hoffer, Reflections on the Human Condition
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Re: Don't kill the messenger
Posted by Don Brown <do...@gmail.com>.
On Dec 21, 2007 8:38 AM, Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de> wrote:
> This must obviously be a guy who never had a build with more than one single module. So he never
> learned that it is NOT a good idea to keep all dependencies in every single module ;)
Charles is the architect for Atlassian Confluence, who's significantly
complicated (multi-module) build is driven by Maven 2 and has been for
at least a year now. Atlassian as a company has partaken of the Maven
coolaid, resulting in hundreds of Maven 2-created artifacts. In fact,
our plugin developer kit is built on Maven 2 archetypes as a way to
quickly get potential developers up to speed.
His comment about the dependencies springs from some bad experiences
we had with our Maven 1 JIRA builds. When ibiblio decided to
reorganize their repository, it broke our source distributions,
causing lots of user complaints. Anytime you have your build depend
on external resources, you introduce a point of failure that is
particularly dangerous when you try to support old releases that may
be many years old. Yes, there are ways to mitigate that problem and
yes, Atlassian uses Archiva to have more control over resources, but I
believe Charles' point is it is still broken by design, despite the
bandaids you stick on it.
Don
-- yes, I work for Atlassian (of whom I don't speak for) but my
love/mostly hate affair with Maven extends back many years with
Struts...just ask Wendy :)
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Re: Don't kill the messenger
Posted by Andrew Robinson <an...@gmail.com>.
Sorry, it looks like the settings.xml that my company has us use has
an update policy of always. Guess that conflicts with offline.
I retract any agreement I had with that blog :)
-Andrew
On Dec 20, 2007 4:29 PM, Andrew Robinson <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Offline mode breaks when there are snapshots:
>
> > mvn -o install
>
> [INFO] Failed to resolve artifact.
>
> GroupId: some-group
> ArtifactId: some-artifact
> Version: 1.0-SNAPSHOT
>
> Reason: System is offline.
>
> some-group:some-artifact:pom:1.0-SNAPSHOT
>
>
>
> NOTE: Maven is executing in offline mode. Any artifacts not already in
> your local
> repository will be inaccessible.
>
>
> It *should* work, but doesn't. Maybe I am missing something?
>
>
>
> On Dec 20, 2007 2:57 PM, Wayne Fay <wa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > You could run -o (offline) and then leave it off when you want to
> > check for snapshot updates.
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> >
> > On 12/20/07, Andrew Robinson <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I don't agree with most of the post, but he does have a point about
> > > resolving dependencies during every build.
> > >
> > > On one of my projects, I am using several snapshots due to needing bug
> > > fixes. I really wish I could turn off snapshot checking until I
> > > specifically ask for it to check. Like a "maven.snapshot.skip" flag.
> > >
> > > -Andrew
> > >
> > > On Dec 20, 2007 2:38 PM, Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de> wrote:
> > > > This must obviously be a guy who never had a build with more than one single module. So he never
> > > > learned that it is NOT a good idea to keep all dependencies in every single module ;)
> > > >
> > > > Additionally this guy does not know about maven-proxy and the ability to backup all artifacts you
> > > > need for the whole company.
> > > >
> > > > So for me, I can simply ignore his personal opinion :)
> > > >
> > > > LieGrü,
> > > > strub
> > > >
> > > > --- Borut BolÄ ina <bo...@gmail.com> schrieb:
> > > >
> > > > > Anybody saw this post?
> > > > >
> > > > > http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/
> > > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately the author, Charles Miller <cm...@pastiche.org>, disabled
> > > > > the comments to prevent spam. Hmmm.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? www.yahoo.de/mail
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
>
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Re: Don't kill the messenger
Posted by Andrew Robinson <an...@gmail.com>.
Offline mode breaks when there are snapshots:
> mvn -o install
[INFO] Failed to resolve artifact.
GroupId: some-group
ArtifactId: some-artifact
Version: 1.0-SNAPSHOT
Reason: System is offline.
some-group:some-artifact:pom:1.0-SNAPSHOT
NOTE: Maven is executing in offline mode. Any artifacts not already in
your local
repository will be inaccessible.
It *should* work, but doesn't. Maybe I am missing something?
On Dec 20, 2007 2:57 PM, Wayne Fay <wa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You could run -o (offline) and then leave it off when you want to
> check for snapshot updates.
>
> Wayne
>
>
> On 12/20/07, Andrew Robinson <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I don't agree with most of the post, but he does have a point about
> > resolving dependencies during every build.
> >
> > On one of my projects, I am using several snapshots due to needing bug
> > fixes. I really wish I could turn off snapshot checking until I
> > specifically ask for it to check. Like a "maven.snapshot.skip" flag.
> >
> > -Andrew
> >
> > On Dec 20, 2007 2:38 PM, Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de> wrote:
> > > This must obviously be a guy who never had a build with more than one single module. So he never
> > > learned that it is NOT a good idea to keep all dependencies in every single module ;)
> > >
> > > Additionally this guy does not know about maven-proxy and the ability to backup all artifacts you
> > > need for the whole company.
> > >
> > > So for me, I can simply ignore his personal opinion :)
> > >
> > > LieGrü,
> > > strub
> > >
> > > --- Borut BolÄ ina <bo...@gmail.com> schrieb:
> > >
> > > > Anybody saw this post?
> > > >
> > > > http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately the author, Charles Miller <cm...@pastiche.org>, disabled
> > > > the comments to prevent spam. Hmmm.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? www.yahoo.de/mail
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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>
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Re: Don't kill the messenger
Posted by Barrie Treloar <ba...@gmail.com>.
On Dec 21, 2007 8:35 AM, Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Or set it to never in the repository definition and then use -U to use
> it when you want.
Or never use snapshots.
Always build a locally installed patch version and depend on that.
See http://docs.codehaus.org/display/MAVENUSER/Patching+Maven+Plugins
(which equally applies to non-plugins)
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Re: Don't kill the messenger
Posted by Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com>.
Or set it to never in the repository definition and then use -U to use
it when you want.
- Brett
On 21/12/2007, Wayne Fay <wa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You could run -o (offline) and then leave it off when you want to
> check for snapshot updates.
>
> Wayne
>
> On 12/20/07, Andrew Robinson <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I don't agree with most of the post, but he does have a point about
> > resolving dependencies during every build.
> >
> > On one of my projects, I am using several snapshots due to needing bug
> > fixes. I really wish I could turn off snapshot checking until I
> > specifically ask for it to check. Like a "maven.snapshot.skip" flag.
> >
> > -Andrew
> >
> > On Dec 20, 2007 2:38 PM, Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de> wrote:
> > > This must obviously be a guy who never had a build with more than one single module. So he never
> > > learned that it is NOT a good idea to keep all dependencies in every single module ;)
> > >
> > > Additionally this guy does not know about maven-proxy and the ability to backup all artifacts you
> > > need for the whole company.
> > >
> > > So for me, I can simply ignore his personal opinion :)
> > >
> > > LieGrü,
> > > strub
> > >
> > > --- Borut BolÄ ina <bo...@gmail.com> schrieb:
> > >
> > > > Anybody saw this post?
> > > >
> > > > http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately the author, Charles Miller <cm...@pastiche.org>, disabled
> > > > the comments to prevent spam. Hmmm.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? www.yahoo.de/mail
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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>
--
Brett Porter
Blog: http://www.devzuz.org/blogs/bporter/
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Re: Don't kill the messenger
Posted by Wayne Fay <wa...@gmail.com>.
You could run -o (offline) and then leave it off when you want to
check for snapshot updates.
Wayne
On 12/20/07, Andrew Robinson <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't agree with most of the post, but he does have a point about
> resolving dependencies during every build.
>
> On one of my projects, I am using several snapshots due to needing bug
> fixes. I really wish I could turn off snapshot checking until I
> specifically ask for it to check. Like a "maven.snapshot.skip" flag.
>
> -Andrew
>
> On Dec 20, 2007 2:38 PM, Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de> wrote:
> > This must obviously be a guy who never had a build with more than one single module. So he never
> > learned that it is NOT a good idea to keep all dependencies in every single module ;)
> >
> > Additionally this guy does not know about maven-proxy and the ability to backup all artifacts you
> > need for the whole company.
> >
> > So for me, I can simply ignore his personal opinion :)
> >
> > LieGrü,
> > strub
> >
> > --- Borut BolÄ ina <bo...@gmail.com> schrieb:
> >
> > > Anybody saw this post?
> > >
> > > http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/
> > >
> > > Unfortunately the author, Charles Miller <cm...@pastiche.org>, disabled
> > > the comments to prevent spam. Hmmm.
> >
> >
> >
> > Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? www.yahoo.de/mail
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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>
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Re: Don't kill the messenger
Posted by Andrew Robinson <an...@gmail.com>.
I don't agree with most of the post, but he does have a point about
resolving dependencies during every build.
On one of my projects, I am using several snapshots due to needing bug
fixes. I really wish I could turn off snapshot checking until I
specifically ask for it to check. Like a "maven.snapshot.skip" flag.
-Andrew
On Dec 20, 2007 2:38 PM, Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de> wrote:
> This must obviously be a guy who never had a build with more than one single module. So he never
> learned that it is NOT a good idea to keep all dependencies in every single module ;)
>
> Additionally this guy does not know about maven-proxy and the ability to backup all artifacts you
> need for the whole company.
>
> So for me, I can simply ignore his personal opinion :)
>
> LieGrü,
> strub
>
> --- Borut BolÄ ina <bo...@gmail.com> schrieb:
>
> > Anybody saw this post?
> >
> > http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/
> >
> > Unfortunately the author, Charles Miller <cm...@pastiche.org>, disabled
> > the comments to prevent spam. Hmmm.
>
>
>
> Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? www.yahoo.de/mail
>
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>
>
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RE: Don't kill the messenger
Posted by Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de>.
This must obviously be a guy who never had a build with more than one single module. So he never
learned that it is NOT a good idea to keep all dependencies in every single module ;)
Additionally this guy does not know about maven-proxy and the ability to backup all artifacts you
need for the whole company.
So for me, I can simply ignore his personal opinion :)
LieGrü,
strub
--- Borut BolÄina <bo...@gmail.com> schrieb:
> Anybody saw this post?
>
> http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/
>
> Unfortunately the author, Charles Miller <cm...@pastiche.org>, disabled
> the comments to prevent spam. Hmmm.
Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? www.yahoo.de/mail
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