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Posted to users@httpd.apache.org by Kanta Jiwnani <ka...@cs.umd.edu> on 2003/07/22 20:03:43 UTC
[users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
Hi,
I was looking at bugs in Apache on various platforms. I was surprised
when I found more bugs with Apache on Unix-based platforms as compared
to Windows. I expected the exact opposite. What could be the reason for
this? Is the code very different for these 2 platforms? OR is it because
support for Windows platform is recent and hence less no of bugs? Is
there any documentation that I could look at?
Thanks in advance,
Kanta
Graduate Research Assistant
Experimental Software Engineering Group
Department of Computer Science
University of Maryland, College Park
http://www.cs.umd.edu/~kanta
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Re: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
Posted by Kanta Jiwnani <ka...@cs.umd.edu>.
Joshua,
I agree with you. I also started with the hypothesis that I will find more
flaws in Windows -based Apache. I just got the oppposite result so I
needed help from people who have worked, developed Apache in understanding
this result.
I will take your feedback into account and analyze this again.
Thanks again.
Kanta
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Joshua Slive wrote:
>
> On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Kanta Jiwnani wrote:
>
> >
> > I looked at these links you provided. But these do not list all the
> > problems in Apache. They list only the major ones. CERT,CVE and
> > SECURITYFOCUS are standard lists in the security community. I created a
> > superset of all the flaws I could find at these sources. SO, I do not
> > think there is any bias/problems with my data collection techniques.
>
> Sure they are standard lists, but merging them together and using the
> results to generate statistics is certainly not standard.
>
> In addition, the lists I referenced are quite comprehensive when it comes
> to apache security problems. They are compiled by Marc Cox, who is head
> of Red Hat's security response team and a CVE board member in addition to
> being one of the leaders of the Apache security team.
>
> In the end, I am quite confident that your numbers are wrong.
>
> One possibility is that you are including as apache security problems any
> problem related to using the apache http server. For example, flaws in
> third party modules, flaws in vendor installations, flaws in various cgi
> scripts, etc, would all be excluded from the apacheweek list. These types
> of flaws would be far more common on linux, just because there is far more
> development effort going into open-source software on these platforms.
>
> But if your end question is "are there more security problems in the
> apache http server on unix than there are on windows", then I'm almost
> certain the answer is no.
>
> Joshua.
>
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Re: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Kanta Jiwnani wrote:
>
> I looked at these links you provided. But these do not list all the
> problems in Apache. They list only the major ones. CERT,CVE and
> SECURITYFOCUS are standard lists in the security community. I created a
> superset of all the flaws I could find at these sources. SO, I do not
> think there is any bias/problems with my data collection techniques.
Sure they are standard lists, but merging them together and using the
results to generate statistics is certainly not standard.
In addition, the lists I referenced are quite comprehensive when it comes
to apache security problems. They are compiled by Marc Cox, who is head
of Red Hat's security response team and a CVE board member in addition to
being one of the leaders of the Apache security team.
In the end, I am quite confident that your numbers are wrong.
One possibility is that you are including as apache security problems any
problem related to using the apache http server. For example, flaws in
third party modules, flaws in vendor installations, flaws in various cgi
scripts, etc, would all be excluded from the apacheweek list. These types
of flaws would be far more common on linux, just because there is far more
development effort going into open-source software on these platforms.
But if your end question is "are there more security problems in the
apache http server on unix than there are on windows", then I'm almost
certain the answer is no.
Joshua.
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Re: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
Posted by Kanta Jiwnani <ka...@cs.umd.edu>.
Sure.
I am listing the links for the 3 sources:
1. CVE:
http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=apache
2. CERT:
http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/html/search
Type: apache in the box.
3.SECURITYFOCUS:
http://securityfocus.com/bid
Select "Apache Software Foundation" in the vendor field.
There are flaws that are common between these 3 sources. Also, if there is
a flaw in something else (like Oracle Application server which uses
Apache), I do not consider this flaw.
Thanks,
Kanta
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Aman Raheja wrote:
> HI
> Could you possibly upload these somewhere for all of us too see and then
> comment further?
>
> Thanks
> Aman
>
> kanta@cs.umd.edu wrote:
>
> >I looked at these links you provided. But these do not list all the
> >problems in Apache. They list only the major ones. CERT,CVE and
> >SECURITYFOCUS are standard lists in the security community. I created a
> >superset of all the flaws I could find at these sources. SO, I do not
> >think there is any bias/problems with my data collection techniques.
> >
> >Thanks for your reply.
> >Kanta
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
Posted by Aman Raheja <am...@netscape.net>.
HI
Could you possibly upload these somewhere for all of us too see and then
comment further?
Thanks
Aman
kanta@cs.umd.edu wrote:
>I looked at these links you provided. But these do not list all the
>problems in Apache. They list only the major ones. CERT,CVE and
>SECURITYFOCUS are standard lists in the security community. I created a
>superset of all the flaws I could find at these sources. SO, I do not
>think there is any bias/problems with my data collection techniques.
>
>Thanks for your reply.
>Kanta
>
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Re: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
Posted by Kanta Jiwnani <ka...@cs.umd.edu>.
I looked at these links you provided. But these do not list all the
problems in Apache. They list only the major ones. CERT,CVE and
SECURITYFOCUS are standard lists in the security community. I created a
superset of all the flaws I could find at these sources. SO, I do not
think there is any bias/problems with my data collection techniques.
Thanks for your reply.
Kanta
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Joshua Slive wrote:
>
> On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Kanta Jiwnani wrote:
>
> >
> > I have collected security bugs in Apache from cve.mitre.org, cert and
> > securityfocus.com. It includes all versions of Apache. Out of 129 security
> > flaws, 41 flaws affected Windows while 77 affected Linux flaws. There is
> > an overlap between these 2 sets since there are flaws that affect both
> > platforms. How much does the code differ for different platforms?
>
> This kind of statistical analysis can be terribly misleading. It has
> severe sample selection bias, among other flaws.
>
> But I suspect you have an even more basic error. If I look at a more
> carefully compiled list like the ones here:
> http://www.apacheweek.com/features/security-13
> http://www.apacheweek.com/features/security-20
>
> In the 2.0 list, I see around four or five vulnerabilities that affect
> only the Win32/Netware/OS/2 and perhaps one or two that affect only unix
> platforms. All the rest affect all platforms. 1.3 looks similar (and
> perhaps even worse for win32).
>
> Note there are less than 35 security problems, not 129 (although, of
> course, I didn't count apache versions before 1.3).
>
> So it looks like your data collection technique has some serious problems.
>
> (To answer your other question: they share most of the code, but they also
> have a substantial amount of code that differs between platforms. In 2.0,
> look at the mpms and at APR. In 1.3 it is a little more difficult,
> because you need to sift thorugh IfDefine's in the code.)
>
> Joshua.
>
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Re: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Kanta Jiwnani wrote:
>
> I have collected security bugs in Apache from cve.mitre.org, cert and
> securityfocus.com. It includes all versions of Apache. Out of 129 security
> flaws, 41 flaws affected Windows while 77 affected Linux flaws. There is
> an overlap between these 2 sets since there are flaws that affect both
> platforms. How much does the code differ for different platforms?
This kind of statistical analysis can be terribly misleading. It has
severe sample selection bias, among other flaws.
But I suspect you have an even more basic error. If I look at a more
carefully compiled list like the ones here:
http://www.apacheweek.com/features/security-13
http://www.apacheweek.com/features/security-20
In the 2.0 list, I see around four or five vulnerabilities that affect
only the Win32/Netware/OS/2 and perhaps one or two that affect only unix
platforms. All the rest affect all platforms. 1.3 looks similar (and
perhaps even worse for win32).
Note there are less than 35 security problems, not 129 (although, of
course, I didn't count apache versions before 1.3).
So it looks like your data collection technique has some serious problems.
(To answer your other question: they share most of the code, but they also
have a substantial amount of code that differs between platforms. In 2.0,
look at the mpms and at APR. In 1.3 it is a little more difficult,
because you need to sift thorugh IfDefine's in the code.)
Joshua.
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Re: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
Posted by Kanta Jiwnani <ka...@cs.umd.edu>.
I have collected security bugs in Apache from cve.mitre.org, cert and
securityfocus.com. It includes all versions of Apache. Out of 129 security
flaws, 41 flaws affected Windows while 77 affected Linux flaws. There is
an overlap between these 2 sets since there are flaws that affect both
platforms. How much does the code differ for different platforms?
Kanta
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Joshua Slive wrote:
>
> On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Kanta Jiwnani wrote:
> > I was looking at bugs in Apache on various platforms. I was surprised
> > when I found more bugs with Apache on Unix-based platforms as compared
> > to Windows. I expected the exact opposite. What could be the reason for
> > this? Is the code very different for these 2 platforms? OR is it because
> > support for Windows platform is recent and hence less no of bugs? Is
> > there any documentation that I could look at?
>
> Where does your data come from? What version of apache are you talking
> about?
>
> Without knowing more about what you are seeing, it is impossible to answer
> your question.
>
> In general, apache is "better" (in the sense of more tested) on unix
> platforms than on windows. But that extra testing could lead to more
> reported bugs.
>
> Joshua.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Kanta Jiwnani wrote:
> I was looking at bugs in Apache on various platforms. I was surprised
> when I found more bugs with Apache on Unix-based platforms as compared
> to Windows. I expected the exact opposite. What could be the reason for
> this? Is the code very different for these 2 platforms? OR is it because
> support for Windows platform is recent and hence less no of bugs? Is
> there any documentation that I could look at?
Where does your data come from? What version of apache are you talking
about?
Without knowing more about what you are seeing, it is impossible to answer
your question.
In general, apache is "better" (in the sense of more tested) on unix
platforms than on windows. But that extra testing could lead to more
reported bugs.
Joshua.
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RE: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
Posted by Kanta Jiwnani <ka...@cs.umd.edu>.
Hi,
I will surely post my results when I am done with my analysis. I will be
unsubscribing from this list for now. IF anyone has more information for
me, could you please write to me at kanta@cs.umd.edu.
Thanks again,
Kanta
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Jeff Cohen wrote:
> I have a simple answer for you, Performance! Linux is well known in
> performance with apache\oracle\mysql and many other more, although they ALL
> work on various platforms, most system admins prefer using Linux because of
> manageability, performance and cost.
>
> And I do NOT agree that there are more *bugs* in the apache based on win32
> environment than in *nix systems.
> I think that just because apache does NOT fully integrate into win32
> applications, security and file permissions - it's less risky, most cases
> that Apache is "defected" on the win32 platform is because of platform bugs
> in the first place.
>
> All the best,
> Jeff Cohen
> Support@GEJ-IT.com
> Tel. (416) 917-2324
> www.GEJ-IT.com
> GEJ-IT Networks!
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kanta Jiwnani [mailto:kanta@cs.umd.edu]
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 2:04 PM
> > To: users@httpd.apache.org
> > Subject: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I was looking at bugs in Apache on various platforms. I was surprised
> > when I found more bugs with Apache on Unix-based platforms as compared
> > to Windows. I expected the exact opposite. What could be the reason for
> > this? Is the code very different for these 2 platforms? OR is it because
> > support for Windows platform is recent and hence less no of bugs? Is
> > there any documentation that I could look at?
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Kanta
> >
> > Graduate Research Assistant
> > Experimental Software Engineering Group
> > Department of Computer Science
> > University of Maryland, College Park
> > http://www.cs.umd.edu/~kanta
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The official User-To-User support forum of the Apache HTTP Server Project.
> > See <URL:http://httpd.apache.org/userslist.html> for more info.
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@httpd.apache.org
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>
>
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>
>
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RE: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
Posted by Jeff Cohen <su...@gej-it.com>.
That's right, this article is still in a fact, I've been tracking sites
running Apache on Linux, Unix, Solaris and Win32, and found that Apache on
Win32 is more reliable, secure and stable compare to the others.
I wonder what you'll bring up in your survey, please email me a link to your
report or even post it as a thread that the apache community will have this
information shared. I think you found a very important and interesting
subject to review.
Thank you and good luck,
Jeff Cohen
Support@GEJ-IT.com
Tel. (416) 917-2324
www.GEJ-IT.com
GEJ-IT Networks!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kanta Jiwnani [mailto:kanta@cs.umd.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 11:43 PM
> To: users@httpd.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
>
>
> Thanks Jeff. I agree with you. I even found a reference at NetCraft
> supporting your argument at
>
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2003/02/25/apache_on_windows_struggling.ht
> ml
>
> Thanks for your feedback,
> Kanta
>
> On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Jeff Cohen wrote:
>
> > I have a simple answer for you, Performance! Linux is well known in
> > performance with apache\oracle\mysql and many other more, although they
> ALL
> > work on various platforms, most system admins prefer using Linux because
of
> > manageability, performance and cost.
> >
> > And I do NOT agree that there are more *bugs* in the apache based on
win32
> > environment than in *nix systems.
> > I think that just because apache does NOT fully integrate into win32
> > applications, security and file permissions - it's less risky, most
cases
> > that Apache is "defected" on the win32 platform is because of platform
bugs
> > in the first place.
> >
> > All the best,
> > Jeff Cohen
> > Support@GEJ-IT.com
> > Tel. (416) 917-2324
> > www.GEJ-IT.com
> > GEJ-IT Networks!
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Kanta Jiwnani [mailto:kanta@cs.umd.edu]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 2:04 PM
> > > To: users@httpd.apache.org
> > > Subject: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I was looking at bugs in Apache on various platforms. I was surprised
> > > when I found more bugs with Apache on Unix-based platforms as compared
> > > to Windows. I expected the exact opposite. What could be the reason
for
> > > this? Is the code very different for these 2 platforms? OR is it
because
> > > support for Windows platform is recent and hence less no of bugs? Is
> > > there any documentation that I could look at?
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance,
> > > Kanta
> > >
> > > Graduate Research Assistant
> > > Experimental Software Engineering Group
> > > Department of Computer Science
> > > University of Maryland, College Park
> > > http://www.cs.umd.edu/~kanta
> > >
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RE: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
Posted by Kanta Jiwnani <ka...@cs.umd.edu>.
Thanks Jeff. I agree with you. I even found a reference at NetCraft
supporting your argument at
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2003/02/25/apache_on_windows_struggling.html
Thanks for your feedback,
Kanta
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Jeff Cohen wrote:
> I have a simple answer for you, Performance! Linux is well known in
> performance with apache\oracle\mysql and many other more, although they ALL
> work on various platforms, most system admins prefer using Linux because of
> manageability, performance and cost.
>
> And I do NOT agree that there are more *bugs* in the apache based on win32
> environment than in *nix systems.
> I think that just because apache does NOT fully integrate into win32
> applications, security and file permissions - it's less risky, most cases
> that Apache is "defected" on the win32 platform is because of platform bugs
> in the first place.
>
> All the best,
> Jeff Cohen
> Support@GEJ-IT.com
> Tel. (416) 917-2324
> www.GEJ-IT.com
> GEJ-IT Networks!
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kanta Jiwnani [mailto:kanta@cs.umd.edu]
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 2:04 PM
> > To: users@httpd.apache.org
> > Subject: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I was looking at bugs in Apache on various platforms. I was surprised
> > when I found more bugs with Apache on Unix-based platforms as compared
> > to Windows. I expected the exact opposite. What could be the reason for
> > this? Is the code very different for these 2 platforms? OR is it because
> > support for Windows platform is recent and hence less no of bugs? Is
> > there any documentation that I could look at?
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Kanta
> >
> > Graduate Research Assistant
> > Experimental Software Engineering Group
> > Department of Computer Science
> > University of Maryland, College Park
> > http://www.cs.umd.edu/~kanta
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The official User-To-User support forum of the Apache HTTP Server Project.
> > See <URL:http://httpd.apache.org/userslist.html> for more info.
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>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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RE: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
Posted by Jeff Cohen <su...@gej-it.com>.
I have a simple answer for you, Performance! Linux is well known in
performance with apache\oracle\mysql and many other more, although they ALL
work on various platforms, most system admins prefer using Linux because of
manageability, performance and cost.
And I do NOT agree that there are more *bugs* in the apache based on win32
environment than in *nix systems.
I think that just because apache does NOT fully integrate into win32
applications, security and file permissions - it's less risky, most cases
that Apache is "defected" on the win32 platform is because of platform bugs
in the first place.
All the best,
Jeff Cohen
Support@GEJ-IT.com
Tel. (416) 917-2324
www.GEJ-IT.com
GEJ-IT Networks!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kanta Jiwnani [mailto:kanta@cs.umd.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 2:04 PM
> To: users@httpd.apache.org
> Subject: [users@httpd] Apache on Unix vs Apache on Windows
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I was looking at bugs in Apache on various platforms. I was surprised
> when I found more bugs with Apache on Unix-based platforms as compared
> to Windows. I expected the exact opposite. What could be the reason for
> this? Is the code very different for these 2 platforms? OR is it because
> support for Windows platform is recent and hence less no of bugs? Is
> there any documentation that I could look at?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Kanta
>
> Graduate Research Assistant
> Experimental Software Engineering Group
> Department of Computer Science
> University of Maryland, College Park
> http://www.cs.umd.edu/~kanta
>
>
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