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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> on 2008/09/04 18:37:27 UTC
Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Hi,
Following up from a thread on site-dev@, what's our position on the
Google Analytics terms of service [1]?
A number of Apache projects are already using Google Analytics on
their web sites, and I believe that the normal mode of operation is
that access to the analytics data is given to any interested committer
or PMC member.
[1] http://www.google.com/analytics/tos.html
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Marshall Schor <ms...@schor.com>.
Jukka Zitting wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 10:43 PM, Justin Erenkrantz
> <ju...@erenkrantz.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> A number of Apache projects are already using Google Analytics on
>>> their web sites, and I believe that the normal mode of operation is
>>> that access to the analytics data is given to any interested committer
>>> or PMC member.
>>>
>> As a matter of policy, I believe if we collect this information, we
>> must make it available to everyone - including the general public.
>>
>
> The Google Analytics terms require that the service is for "internal
> use", which is open to interpretation but probably prohibits us from
> publishing the access keys to the whole internet. Would both
> requirements be satisfied if we handed access to the reports to anyone
> who asks for it?
>
I think not- because the agreement says the use of the Software, Service
and *Reports* is solely for Your own internal use. It's hard to see how
giving access to the reports to anyone who asks for it is consistent
with "internal use"
> On a related note, before adding Google Analytics to the Jackrabbit
> web site, I occasionally ran some specific reports based on the raw
> log data available on people.apache.org to get better insight on how
> people are using our site. Should such custom reports also be made
> public?
>
> BR,
>
> Jukka Zitting
>
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>
>
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 2:07 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Google Analytics terms require that the service is for "internal
> use", which is open to interpretation but probably prohibits us from
> publishing the access keys to the whole internet. Would both
> requirements be satisfied if we handed access to the reports to anyone
> who asks for it?
I don't know. If it's not allowed, it's also a possibility to ask
Google to consider changing the terms to let us publish the reports on
a periodic basis. They seem willing to update their TOSs when pointed
out with valid arguments. It is *our* data that we're giving to them
- and if we want to make that available to all comers, in my opinion,
that's our business, not theirs.
> On a related note, before adding Google Analytics to the Jackrabbit
> web site, I occasionally ran some specific reports based on the raw
> log data available on people.apache.org to get better insight on how
> people are using our site. Should such custom reports also be made
> public?
At the least, I would feel that the analysis of your ad-hoc reports
should be discussed on the public lists. (Obviously, we don't want to
make raw data available.) -- justin
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 9:19 PM, Justin Erenkrantz
<ju...@erenkrantz.com> wrote:
> AFAIK, not a single project that installed GA even bothered to
> ask infra if there were any alternatives available...
For the record, I was an well aware of the mentioned tools and used
especially Vadim's reports quite actively before installing GA for
Jackrabbit. As far as I'm concerned, switching to GA was a major
improvement.
I agree that Justin has a valid concern and hope to find a good
resolution so we can continue using GA.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net> wrote:
> I wouldn't expect infra to say anything but No [1] to
> suggestions about setting up a tracking and analysis
> package. Realistically, it's either Google or something
> operated by the interested PMCs or nothing.
Huh?
http://people.apache.org/~henkp/analog/
http://people.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/
http://people.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/projects/index.html
If folks actually came to infra and volunteered to help out, I'm sure
Henk, Vadim, and others would be happy to help flesh out our
analytics. AFAIK, not a single project that installed GA even
bothered to ask infra if there were any alternatives available...
The only requirement (and this is behind the initial objection to GA)
is that the information must be made available to everyone. -- justin
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Mario Ivankovits <im...@apache.org>.
Hi Roland,
>> In fact, I see a legal question for Apache when using this Google
>> service: Are we as non-profit organisation allowed to allow another
>> commercial oriented company to gather that detailed statistics they
>> can make money with?
>
> While I share you concerns about user privacy in general,
> you lost me here. We as a non-profit organisation release
> data ("source code") that allows plenty of other, commercial
> companies to make money with.
You wrote it later in your post. Using our "source code" is on the will
of our users, being tracked by a third party is not - and opting-out is
not easily possible.
> That's worth to be discussed, though I'm not sure whether
> legal-discuss is the appropriate list for it.
What will be the right list? Probably community@?
> I wouldn't expect infra to say anything but No [1] to
> suggestions about setting up a tracking and analysis
> package. Realistically, it's either Google or something
> operated by the interested PMCs or nothing.
I understand [1] and I really really know that any project just taking
"5 minutes to setup" will become a full time job in light-speed ;-)
Anyway, if this is the case then we should avoid using such tracking
service stuff. We should not sell our users.
BTW: [1] brings up another question: What needs to be done to make Infra
convinced that a new service is needed?
Ciao,
Mario
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>.
Hello Mario,
Mario Ivankovits wrote:
> In fact, I see a legal question for Apache when using this Google
> service: Are we as non-profit organisation allowed to allow another
> commercial oriented company to gather that detailed statistics they can
> make money with?
While I share you concerns about user privacy in general,
you lost me here. We as a non-profit organisation release
data ("source code") that allows plenty of other, commercial
companies to make money with.
> I think making use of this service requires Apache to sort out such a
> question first, no?
> At least, I think it is not our "style".
That's worth to be discussed, though I'm not sure whether
legal-discuss is the appropriate list for it. The data
("source code") we release is contributed explicitly for
that purpose, while the data about user behavior is simply
collected for statistical analysis, probably without an
opt-out option for privacy conscious users.
I also see a difference between giving an outside entity
full access to user trails on the one hand, and doing
statistical analysis ourselves and publishing only the
aggregate results on the other hand.
I wouldn't expect infra to say anything but No [1] to
suggestions about setting up a tracking and analysis
package. Realistically, it's either Google or something
operated by the interested PMCs or nothing.
[1] http://www.jroller.com/lsd/date/20050717#why_we_say_no_to
cheers,
Roland
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Mario Ivankovits <im...@apache.org>.
Hi!
>
>> Not that I'd keep the web-server statistic private, the opposite,
>> having a statistics page on the website itself would be great.
>> But why use Google to aggregate that and hand out the browsing
>> behavior of OUR clients for free?
>
> for free? I think Google Analytics is a great service and you get it
> "for free". In fact you "pay" the great service by sharing your users
> browsing behaviour. I think it is fair.
No, I think it is not. Collecting personal information to create
profiles is very questionable. I wonder why so many people already are
used to that.
> If you know better solutions (same quality/easy of use) that is for
> free and does not require you to share the browsing behaviour then it
> is welcome. But for this we would need to host an ASF internal
> tracking server and:
> 1) There is no free tracking package with the same features of google
> analytics.
> 2) This would not come for free: you have to pay the hardware and the
> people that mantain the software.
I am not sure if it is as feature full as Google Analytics, but awstats
[1] did a great job for us already. I am pretty sure the Apache
Infrastructure Team is able to install that one day if we commit to that.
> Furthermore I'm not sure I follow you. You say that whatever statistic
> we collect should be made public.
No, not whatever, only the statistic we are interested in. Which might
not allow to collect deeper informations about personal behavior as this
data has been anonymized (e.g. cookie data is not available by such
statistics).
>> I like Google, but a line needs to be drawn.
>>
>> Just my 2 cent.
> Here we are talking about legal-issues. Once we know there are no
> legal issues each PMC will decide on its own what they want from
> google and what they are willing to give in trade.
You might compare Google Analytics with donations like JIRA. Just, with
JIRA you know exactly what you get and are in full control of it. One
piece of software, fully usable and controllable on your own network and
server. The benefit the Atlassian guys have is free advertising.
Something I can live with.
With Google Analytics, a "free" piece of software you do NOT know what
you pay for. Or in other words: You do NOT know how much money they make
out of that data.
As a technical aspect, I also have seen sites slow down whith Google
Analythics enabled due to some bandwith problems on Google side.
Well, we at Apache give software at a very liberal license. The question
is if it is according to our rules letting a 3rd party making money with
our data, regardless how sexy their application is.
In fact, I see a legal question for Apache when using this Google
service: Are we as non-profit organisation allowed to allow another
commercial oriented company to gather that detailed statistics they can
make money with?
I think making use of this service requires Apache to sort out such a
question first, no?
At least, I think it is not our "style".
Ciao,
Mario
[1] http://awstats.sourceforge.net/
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
Mario Ivankovits ha scritto:
> Hi,
>
> has it been discussed already? But I'd abstain from using Google
> Analytics at all.
> Why is everyone so keen to provide Google with the web-server access
> statistics?
Well, in my experience half of the traffic for ASF projects is created
by google searches, so I guess they already know a lot of your traffic
even if you don't share your stats ;-)
> Not that I'd keep the web-server statistic private, the opposite, having
> a statistics page on the website itself would be great.
> But why use Google to aggregate that and hand out the browsing behavior
> of OUR clients for free?
for free? I think Google Analytics is a great service and you get it
"for free". In fact you "pay" the great service by sharing your users
browsing behaviour. I think it is fair.
If you know better solutions (same quality/easy of use) that is for free
and does not require you to share the browsing behaviour then it is
welcome. But for this we would need to host an ASF internal tracking
server and:
1) There is no free tracking package with the same features of google
analytics.
2) This would not come for free: you have to pay the hardware and the
people that mantain the software.
Furthermore I'm not sure I follow you. You say that whatever statistic
we collect should be made public. So even if we don't use google
analytics if google was really interested in "OUR clients" browsing
behaviours it could simply read our public statistics!
> I like Google, but a line needs to be drawn.
>
> Just my 2 cent.
Here we are talking about legal-issues. Once we know there are no legal
issues each PMC will decide on its own what they want from google and
what they are willing to give in trade.
Stefano
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Mario Ivankovits <im...@apache.org>.
Hi,
has it been discussed already? But I'd abstain from using Google
Analytics at all.
Why is everyone so keen to provide Google with the web-server access
statistics?
Not that I'd keep the web-server statistic private, the opposite, having
a statistics page on the website itself would be great.
But why use Google to aggregate that and hand out the browsing behavior
of OUR clients for free?
I like Google, but a line needs to be drawn.
Just my 2 cent.
Ciao,
Mario
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 1:02 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's also possible to schedule periodic report emails to be sent to
>> the project mailing list. Based on the Google Analytics support forums
>> this seems to be the preferred way of sharing site statistics with the
>> public.
>>
>
> I sent the following question to Google to clarify whether this is OK
> by their terms of service.
>
> BR,
>
> Jukka Zitting
>
> ----
>
> Hi,
>
> At Apache Jackrabbit, an open source project that is a part of the
> Apache Software Foundation, we use Google Analytics to track the usage
> of our web site. As an open source project we strive to have all our
> data, processes, and collaboration publicly available. To achieve this
> goal with our web site usage reports I would like to configure Google
> Analytics to send periodic email reports to our public project mailing
> list.
>
> However, your terms of service require: "You will use the Software,
> Service and Reports solely for Your own internal use". Does this mean
> that we are not allowed to distribute the reports in public, or can we
> interpret that our public project mailing list is in fact "internal
> use"?
>
> BR,
>
> Jukka Zitting
>
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 11:50 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Are there any objections to us unilaterally interpreting the "internal
>> use" in the GA terms of service as including our project mailing
>> lists?
>
> Isn't there some informal channel we know of, who can give us an
> informal answer??
That would be great. Anyone at Google who knows people in Analytics?
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 11:50 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Are there any objections to us unilaterally interpreting the "internal
> use" in the GA terms of service as including our project mailing
> lists?
Isn't there some informal channel we know of, who can give us an
informal answer??
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Marshall Schor <ms...@schor.com> wrote:
> Another option for users (using Firefox, at least), is to install
> browser plugins like http://noscript.net and put google analytics on the
> "prohibit" list.
But, this is ridiculous. Google's "power" doesn't come from knowing
"my" browsing habits (at least not at the moment). It comes from the
aggregated information of millions of people "who don't care". Even if
30% of the population blocked GA (much larger than I think ever
would), it is still a powerful tool for Google and the interests it
sells this information to.
We have all contributed to making this possible, and nothing short of
Legislative intervention (or a concerted effort of Microsoft and
Firefox) can stop it now.
The above tricks will come in handy when Google is taking it to the
next level, and Google sleeps in my bed.
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Marshall Schor <ms...@schor.com>.
Stefano Bagnara wrote:
> Jukka Zitting ha scritto:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Marshall Schor <ms...@schor.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I believe that information collected is being sent to Google (presuming
>>> you're using Google analytics). As such, I don't think we should state
>>> we don't "allow" third parties to ... associate data with ... , because
>>> we don't control what Google does.
>>>
>> Hmm, that's a good point.
>>
>> Technically the data that we send to Google through GA does not
>> contain any "personally identifiable information" (name, address,
>> etc.) but it would be well within Google's capacity to (heuristically)
>> correlate the information with personally identifying information from
>> other sources they control. Looking at the GA TOS and Google's privacy
>> policy I could not find a clause where Google says they wouldn't do
>> that.
>>
>
> Technically we don't send any data to Google. It is the user's browser
> that interpret the ga url we have in our pages, download some ga script
> and provide data to google by interpreting the script. We have no actual
> control on what the script will ask to the browser and what the browser
> will reply.
>
>
>> I have no concerns about giving Google access to the usage statistics
>> of our sites (we're in any case making that data public) and I believe
>> that's what Google mainly is after with GA, but I do find it odd that
>> they'd keep the option to for example link GA browsing data with a
>> visitor's Google account.
>>
>
> Anyone having concern with such privacy issues should disable cookies
> and javascript from their browser. And they should also use anonymizers
> because most stuff can be tracked anyway. Maybe the best options for
> them is to not use internet ;-)
> I guess they don't even go to shops using surveillance cameras and they
> probably use a mask when they go down to the park for a walk.
>
> IMHO people that will care to read the privacy policy and will not use
> an ASF web page because of privacy issues already have some
> filter/protection on his side and don't care of GA scripts, don't you think?
>
>
Another option for users (using Firefox, at least), is to install
browser plugins like http://noscript.net and put google analytics on the
"prohibit" list.
-Marshall
>> Unless we can find a clause in Google policies that says they won't do
>> that, I guess we have two options: a) explicitly mention Google as
>> having extra rights in our privacy policy, or b) drop GA.
>>
>
> Why don't we simply tell people that our pages include a tracking script
> from google and link some GA TOS page.
>
> Stefano
>
>
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>
>
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
Jukka Zitting ha scritto:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Marshall Schor <ms...@schor.com> wrote:
>> I believe that information collected is being sent to Google (presuming
>> you're using Google analytics). As such, I don't think we should state
>> we don't "allow" third parties to ... associate data with ... , because
>> we don't control what Google does.
>
> Hmm, that's a good point.
>
> Technically the data that we send to Google through GA does not
> contain any "personally identifiable information" (name, address,
> etc.) but it would be well within Google's capacity to (heuristically)
> correlate the information with personally identifying information from
> other sources they control. Looking at the GA TOS and Google's privacy
> policy I could not find a clause where Google says they wouldn't do
> that.
Technically we don't send any data to Google. It is the user's browser
that interpret the ga url we have in our pages, download some ga script
and provide data to google by interpreting the script. We have no actual
control on what the script will ask to the browser and what the browser
will reply.
> I have no concerns about giving Google access to the usage statistics
> of our sites (we're in any case making that data public) and I believe
> that's what Google mainly is after with GA, but I do find it odd that
> they'd keep the option to for example link GA browsing data with a
> visitor's Google account.
Anyone having concern with such privacy issues should disable cookies
and javascript from their browser. And they should also use anonymizers
because most stuff can be tracked anyway. Maybe the best options for
them is to not use internet ;-)
I guess they don't even go to shops using surveillance cameras and they
probably use a mask when they go down to the park for a walk.
IMHO people that will care to read the privacy policy and will not use
an ASF web page because of privacy issues already have some
filter/protection on his side and don't care of GA scripts, don't you think?
> Unless we can find a clause in Google policies that says they won't do
> that, I guess we have two options: a) explicitly mention Google as
> having extra rights in our privacy policy, or b) drop GA.
Why don't we simply tell people that our pages include a tracking script
from google and link some GA TOS page.
Stefano
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Marshall Schor <ms...@schor.com> wrote:
> I believe that information collected is being sent to Google (presuming
> you're using Google analytics). As such, I don't think we should state
> we don't "allow" third parties to ... associate data with ... , because
> we don't control what Google does.
Hmm, that's a good point.
Technically the data that we send to Google through GA does not
contain any "personally identifiable information" (name, address,
etc.) but it would be well within Google's capacity to (heuristically)
correlate the information with personally identifying information from
other sources they control. Looking at the GA TOS and Google's privacy
policy I could not find a clause where Google says they wouldn't do
that.
I have no concerns about giving Google access to the usage statistics
of our sites (we're in any case making that data public) and I believe
that's what Google mainly is after with GA, but I do find it odd that
they'd keep the option to for example link GA browsing data with a
visitor's Google account.
Unless we can find a clause in Google policies that says they won't do
that, I guess we have two options: a) explicitly mention Google as
having extra rights in our privacy policy, or b) drop GA.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's an updated draft [...]
I've posted this version now at the Jackrabbit web site, see
http://jackrabbit.apache.org/privacy-policy.html
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 1:20 AM, William A. Rowe, Jr.
<wr...@rowe-clan.net> wrote:
> William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
>> That isn't the terms of the license. The terms are that the ASF will
>> indemnify Google when they our users.
>
> s/our/cause harm to/
>
> E.g. with exception (maybe) of willful misconduct, we assume all of Google's
> liabilities with respect to using the service.
Ah, I see.
Is this something we need to worry about? What's the worst that could happen?
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Jukka Zitting wrote:
>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Marshall Schor <ms...@schor.com> wrote:
>>> Is this an obligation the ASF would agree to?
>> I don't see much problem with that (but IANAL). I guess Google would
>> have a good claim for damages even without this ToS if we did
>> something that ended up hurting them legally.
>
> That isn't the terms of the license. The terms are that the ASF will
> indemnify Google when they our users.
s/our/cause harm to/
E.g. with exception (maybe) of willful misconduct, we assume all of Google's
liabilities with respect to using the service.
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Jukka Zitting wrote:
>
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Marshall Schor <ms...@schor.com> wrote:
>> Is this an obligation the ASF would agree to?
>
> I don't see much problem with that (but IANAL). I guess Google would
> have a good claim for damages even without this ToS if we did
> something that ended up hurting them legally.
That isn't the terms of the license. The terms are that the ASF will
indemnify Google when they our users.
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Marshall Schor <ms...@schor.com> wrote:
> Is this an obligation the ASF would agree to?
I don't see much problem with that (but IANAL). I guess Google would
have a good claim for damages even without this ToS if we did
something that ended up hurting them legally.
> If not, is it the individual who signs up for the license [...]
I don't personally feel too concerned to use my own Google account,
but this does raise the issue of whether we should have some official
"Apache" account at Google for setting up services like Analytics.
> Unless You notify Google otherwise in writing, You hereby grant to
> Google and its wholly owned subsidiaries a limited license to use Your
> trade names, trademarks, service marks, logos, domain names and other
> distinctive brand features ("Brand Features") in presentations,
> marketing materials, customer lists, and financial reports.
They must have changed the ToS as I can't find that in the current version.
I wonder if they have some mechanism for notifying people when the
terms change...
> Should Apache have an initial practice of "notifying Google in writing"
> to not grant use of Apache's Brand Features?
I guess that's something for the PRC to answer, assuming those terms
still apply.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Marshall Schor <ms...@schor.com>.
When we looked at the analytics license a few months ago, it said
>>>You agree to indemnify, hold harmless and defend Google and its
wholly owned subsidiaries, at Your expense, any and all third-party
claims, actions, proceedings, and suits brought against Google or any of
its officers, directors, employees, agents or affiliates, and all
related liabilities, damages, settlements, penalties, fines, costs or
expenses (including, without limitation, reasonable attorneys' fees and
other litigation expenses) incurred by Google or any of its officers,
directors, employees, agents or affiliates, arising out of or relating
to (i) Your breach of any term or condition of this Agreement, (ii) Your
use of the Service, (iii) Your violations of applicable laws, rules or
regulations in connection with the Service, or (iv) Your Brand Features.
In such a case, Google will provide You with written notice of such
claim, suit or action. You shall cooperate as fully as reasonably
required in the defense of any claim. Google reserves the right, at its
own expense, to assume the exclusive defense and control of any matter
subject to indemnification by You.
Is this an obligation the ASF would agree to? If not, is it the
individual who signs up for the license who would have to potentially
defend Google if Google was sued on some issue "arising out of or
relating to (ii) Your use of the Service, or (iv) Your Brand Features"?
I have to confess I don't understand what the real obligations would be
here, and because I don't understand it, I wonder about it.
It also said:
Unless You notify Google otherwise in writing, You hereby grant to
Google and its wholly owned subsidiaries a limited license to use Your
trade names, trademarks, service marks, logos, domain names and other
distinctive brand features ("Brand Features") in presentations,
marketing materials, customer lists, and financial reports.
Should Apache have an initial practice of "notifying Google in writing"
to not grant use of Apache's Brand Features?
Although I'm bringing up these issues, it is in the hope we can find a
way to get comfortably beyond them.
-Marshall Schor
Jukka Zitting wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Picking this up again...
>
> I'm assuming lazy consensus on the idea that we can consider our dev@
> lists as "internal use" in the GA ToS. I'll be setting up GA email
> reports targeted to dev@jackrabbit.apache.org.
>
> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Marshall Schor <ms...@schor.com> wrote:
>
>> I believe that information collected is being sent to Google (presuming
>> you're using Google analytics). As such, I don't think we should state
>> we don't "allow" third parties to ... associate data with ... , because
>> we don't control what Google does. Perhaps we should somehow refer to
>> Google Analytics statements about this, in case they change what they
>> say, from time to time.
>>
>
> Here's an updated draft that should cover this:
>
> <draft>
> Information about your use of this website is collected using server
> access logs and a tracking cookie. The collected information consists
> of the following:
>
> 1. The IP address from which you access the website;
> 2. The type of browser and operating system you use to access our site;
> 3. The date and time you access our site;
> 4. The pages you visit; and
> 5. The addresses of pages from where you followed a link to our site.
>
> Part of this information is gathered using a tracking cookie set by
> the Google Analytics service [1] and handled by Google as described in
> their privacy policy [2]. See your browser documentation for
> instructions on how to disable the cookie if you prefer not to share
> this data with Google.
>
> We use the gathered information to help us make our site more useful
> to visitors and to better understand how and when our site is used. We
> do not track or collect personally identifiable information or
> associate gathered data with any personally identifying information
> from other sources.
>
> By using this website, you consent to the collection of this data in
> the manner and for the purpose described above.
>
> [1] http://www.google.com/analytics/
> [2] http://www.google.com/privacy.html
> </draft>
>
> Comments?
>
> BR,
>
> Jukka Zitting
>
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi Jukka,
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Comments?...
Seen from the angle of a website visitor, I find your proposed notice
clear and understandable. I'm +1 on it if people find it ok from a
legal point of view as well.
-Bertrand
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
Picking this up again...
I'm assuming lazy consensus on the idea that we can consider our dev@
lists as "internal use" in the GA ToS. I'll be setting up GA email
reports targeted to dev@jackrabbit.apache.org.
On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Marshall Schor <ms...@schor.com> wrote:
> I believe that information collected is being sent to Google (presuming
> you're using Google analytics). As such, I don't think we should state
> we don't "allow" third parties to ... associate data with ... , because
> we don't control what Google does. Perhaps we should somehow refer to
> Google Analytics statements about this, in case they change what they
> say, from time to time.
Here's an updated draft that should cover this:
<draft>
Information about your use of this website is collected using server
access logs and a tracking cookie. The collected information consists
of the following:
1. The IP address from which you access the website;
2. The type of browser and operating system you use to access our site;
3. The date and time you access our site;
4. The pages you visit; and
5. The addresses of pages from where you followed a link to our site.
Part of this information is gathered using a tracking cookie set by
the Google Analytics service [1] and handled by Google as described in
their privacy policy [2]. See your browser documentation for
instructions on how to disable the cookie if you prefer not to share
this data with Google.
We use the gathered information to help us make our site more useful
to visitors and to better understand how and when our site is used. We
do not track or collect personally identifiable information or
associate gathered data with any personally identifying information
from other sources.
By using this website, you consent to the collection of this data in
the manner and for the purpose described above.
[1] http://www.google.com/analytics/
[2] http://www.google.com/privacy.html
</draft>
Comments?
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Marshall Schor <ms...@schor.com>.
Thanks, Jukka, for making progress here.
Jukka Zitting wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:29 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'll also write up a draft of the required privacy policy for the Jackrabbit web site.
>>
>
> Here's a draft that covers both server logs and the tracking cookie.
> This should also satisfy the requirements of the GA TOS.
>
> <draft>
> Information about your use of this website is collected using server
> access logs and a tracking cookie. The collected information consists
> of the following:
>
> 1. The IP address from which you access the website;
> 2. The type of browser and operating system you use to access our site;
> 3. The date and time you access our site;
> 4. The pages you visit; and
> 5. The addresses of pages from where you followed a link to our site.
>
> We use this information to help us make our site more useful to
> visitors and to better understand how and when our site is used. We do
> not (and will not allow any third party to) track or collect
> personally identifiable information or associate gathered data with
> any personally identifying information from other sources.
>
I believe that information collected is being sent to Google (presuming
you're using Google analytics). As such, I don't think we should state
we don't "allow" third parties to ... associate data with ... , because
we don't control what Google does. Perhaps we should somehow refer to
Google Analytics statements about this, in case they change what they
say, from time to time.
-Marshall Schor
> By using this website, you consent to the collection of this data in
> the manner and for the purpose described above.
> </draft>
>
> BR,
>
> Jukka Zitting
>
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:29 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll also write up a draft of the required privacy policy for the Jackrabbit web site.
Here's a draft that covers both server logs and the tracking cookie.
This should also satisfy the requirements of the GA TOS.
<draft>
Information about your use of this website is collected using server
access logs and a tracking cookie. The collected information consists
of the following:
1. The IP address from which you access the website;
2. The type of browser and operating system you use to access our site;
3. The date and time you access our site;
4. The pages you visit; and
5. The addresses of pages from where you followed a link to our site.
We use this information to help us make our site more useful to
visitors and to better understand how and when our site is used. We do
not (and will not allow any third party to) track or collect
personally identifiable information or associate gathered data with
any personally identifying information from other sources.
By using this website, you consent to the collection of this data in
the manner and for the purpose described above.
</draft>
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Are there any objections to us unilaterally interpreting the "internal
> use" in the GA terms of service as including our project mailing
> lists?
I would say that this is a reasonable solution, so I'll be setting up
monthly GA reports to be automatically sent to the Jackrabbit
development mailing list. I'll also write up a draft of the required
privacy policy for the Jackrabbit web site.
I'll follow up with site-dev@ on where and how to best document this setup.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 1:02 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> It's also possible to schedule periodic report emails to be sent to
>>> the project mailing list. Based on the Google Analytics support forums
>>> this seems to be the preferred way of sharing site statistics with the
>>> public.
>>
>> I sent the following question to Google to clarify whether this is OK
>> by their terms of service.
>
> I'm following up at
> http://groups.google.com/group/analytics-help-basics/browse_thread/thread/f407ed1572b6f82f
Nothing too useful there, though the answer reflects my opinion that
"internal use" doesn't necessarily mean "private use".
The remaining lead (from GA support) I have is to go through the
Google Permission process [1], but that doesn't seem too appropriate
as it's about Google branding. IANAL, but that seems about as relevant
as requiring PRC approval for using the Apache HTTP Server.
Are there any objections to us unilaterally interpreting the "internal
use" in the GA terms of service as including our project mailing
lists?
[1] http://www.google.com/permissions/index.html
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 1:02 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It's also possible to schedule periodic report emails to be sent to
>> the project mailing list. Based on the Google Analytics support forums
>> this seems to be the preferred way of sharing site statistics with the
>> public.
>
> I sent the following question to Google to clarify whether this is OK
> by their terms of service.
I'm following up at
http://groups.google.com/group/analytics-help-basics/browse_thread/thread/f407ed1572b6f82f
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 1:02 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's also possible to schedule periodic report emails to be sent to
> the project mailing list. Based on the Google Analytics support forums
> this seems to be the preferred way of sharing site statistics with the
> public.
I sent the following question to Google to clarify whether this is OK
by their terms of service.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
----
Hi,
At Apache Jackrabbit, an open source project that is a part of the
Apache Software Foundation, we use Google Analytics to track the usage
of our web site. As an open source project we strive to have all our
data, processes, and collaboration publicly available. To achieve this
goal with our web site usage reports I would like to configure Google
Analytics to send periodic email reports to our public project mailing
list.
However, your terms of service require: "You will use the Software,
Service and Reports solely for Your own internal use". Does this mean
that we are not allowed to distribute the reports in public, or can we
interpret that our public project mailing list is in fact "internal
use"?
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Would both requirements be satisfied if we handed access to the reports
> to anyone who asks for it?
It's also possible to schedule periodic report emails to be sent to
the project mailing list. Based on the Google Analytics support forums
this seems to be the preferred way of sharing site statistics with the
public.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 10:43 PM, Justin Erenkrantz
<ju...@erenkrantz.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> A number of Apache projects are already using Google Analytics on
>> their web sites, and I believe that the normal mode of operation is
>> that access to the analytics data is given to any interested committer
>> or PMC member.
>
> As a matter of policy, I believe if we collect this information, we
> must make it available to everyone - including the general public.
The Google Analytics terms require that the service is for "internal
use", which is open to interpretation but probably prohibits us from
publishing the access keys to the whole internet. Would both
requirements be satisfied if we handed access to the reports to anyone
who asks for it?
On a related note, before adding Google Analytics to the Jackrabbit
web site, I occasionally ran some specific reports based on the raw
log data available on people.apache.org to get better insight on how
people are using our site. Should such custom reports also be made
public?
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
William A. Rowe, Jr. ha scritto:
> Kevan Miller wrote:
>>
>> I also just noticed that the Privacy clause (7) of the Terms of
>> Service state that "You must post a privacy policy and that policy
>> must provide notice of your use of a cookie that collects anonymous
>> traffic data." How many of the projects using google analytics are
>> following this requirement? I know of at least one project that is not...
>
> I don't know us to be in violation of any specific US laws, but I'm almost
> certain that we are in violation of several progressive Western European
> laws on privacy by failing to fulfill this requirement.
AFAICT this is not something specific to Google Analytics, but something
related to Privacy in Europe. From my understanding a privacy notice is
needed even if you simply store logfiles having informations to build
anonymous traffic data (e.g: IP, cookies, referrers).
Isn't it?
Stefano
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:04 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 19/09/2008, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> We use this information to help us make our site more useful to
>> visitors -- to learn about the number of visitors to our site and the
>> types of technology our visitors use. We do not track or record
>> information about individuals and their visits.
>
> Don't we track abusers? e.g. if a particular IP is hitting the servers
> excessively, they might be blocked. This certainly happens for SVN
> access.
I would say that such use is already covered by the above draft as
such protective measures track and record just the IP address and not
the individual(s) behind it. Also, the information is clearly used to
make the site more useful to visitors. :-)
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 19/09/2008, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> > Do any of the ASF sites use cookies?
> >
> >
> You bet !!! Just go and check your cookies on your favorite browser :)
Duh - of course....
In that case we probably ought to say what the cookies are used for, e.g.
Login tracking (e.g. cwiki and issues)
Preferences
> here are some of those I have :
> cwiki.apache.org,
> db.apache.org,
> directory.apache.org,
> issues.apache.org,
> maven.apache.org,
> people.apache.org,
> us.apachecon.com
> ws.apache.org...
>
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@apache.org>.
> Do any of the ASF sites use cookies?
>
You bet !!! Just go and check your cookies on your favorite browser :)
here are some of those I have :
cwiki.apache.org,
db.apache.org,
directory.apache.org,
issues.apache.org,
maven.apache.org,
people.apache.org,
us.apachecon.com
ws.apache.org...
--
--
cordialement, regards,
Emmanuel Lécharny
www.iktek.com
directory.apache.org
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 19/09/2008, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@apache.org> wrote:
> > this law is to be applied to french companies or associations or persons who
> > are collecting these data. That means we aren't forced to inform the user,
> > because the ASF is in the US (mirrors are also considered as proxies, and
> > not subject to those rules, as they are just helping the system to work
> > properly).
>
>
> But there's nothing to stop us from informing the users.
+1
> Here's a draft for a privacy policy that covers the normal access logs we keep.
>
> <draft>
> Information about your use of this website is collected in server
> access logs that contains the following information:
>
> 1. The IP address from which you access the website;
> 2. The type of browser and operating system you use to access our site;
> 3. The date and time you access our site;
> 4. The pages you visit; and
> 5. The addresses of pages from where you followed a link to our site.
>
> We use this information to help us make our site more useful to
> visitors -- to learn about the number of visitors to our site and the
> types of technology our visitors use. We do not track or record
> information about individuals and their visits.
Don't we track abusers? e.g. if a particular IP is hitting the servers
excessively, they might be blocked. This certainly happens for SVN
access.
> By using this website, you consent to the collection of this data in
> the manner and for the purpose described above.
> </draft>
>
Do any of the ASF sites use cookies?
I've not noticed any, but if they are used it might be necessary to
mention them.
Or indeed if we never use cookies, mentioning that might be a good idea.
> I used http://www.whitehouse.gov/privacy.html as an example.
>
> BR,
>
>
> Jukka Zitting
>
>
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@apache.org> wrote:
> this law is to be applied to french companies or associations or persons who
> are collecting these data. That means we aren't forced to inform the user,
> because the ASF is in the US (mirrors are also considered as proxies, and
> not subject to those rules, as they are just helping the system to work
> properly).
But there's nothing to stop us from informing the users.
Here's a draft for a privacy policy that covers the normal access logs we keep.
<draft>
Information about your use of this website is collected in server
access logs that contains the following information:
1. The IP address from which you access the website;
2. The type of browser and operating system you use to access our site;
3. The date and time you access our site;
4. The pages you visit; and
5. The addresses of pages from where you followed a link to our site.
We use this information to help us make our site more useful to
visitors -- to learn about the number of visitors to our site and the
types of technology our visitors use. We do not track or record
information about individuals and their visits.
By using this website, you consent to the collection of this data in
the manner and for the purpose described above.
</draft>
I used http://www.whitehouse.gov/privacy.html as an example.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@apache.org>.
Kevan Miller wrote:
>
> On Sep 15, 2008, at 10:39 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
>
>> Kevan Miller wrote:
>>> I also just noticed that the Privacy clause (7) of the Terms of
>>> Service state that "You must post a privacy policy and that policy
>>> must provide notice of your use of a cookie that collects anonymous
>>> traffic data." How many of the projects using google analytics are
>>> following this requirement? I know of at least one project that is
>>> not...
>>
>> I don't know us to be in violation of any specific US laws, but I'm
>> almost
>> certain that we are in violation of several progressive Western European
>> laws on privacy by failing to fulfill this requirement.
>
>
> The en-GB version of the Analytics' Terms or Service contains the
> following suggested text. Seems reasonable to me. It doesn't say
> anything about how we, Apache projects, might use the data. That
> doesn't seem necessary and probably would be project specific.
>
The french law is pretty restrictive, and you should inform the user
that you are collecting some private data (or any information which are
sufficient to identify a person (I guess that an IP address belongs to
this category).
*but*
this law is to be applied to french companies or associations or persons
who are collecting these data. That means we aren't forced to inform the
user, because the ASF is in the US (mirrors are also considered as
proxies, and not subject to those rules, as they are just helping the
system to work properly).
References for french native speakers :
http://www.cnil.fr/index.php?id=301#Article32
--
--
cordialement, regards,
Emmanuel Lécharny
www.iktek.com
directory.apache.org
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Kevan Miller <ke...@gmail.com>.
On Sep 15, 2008, at 10:39 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Kevan Miller wrote:
>> I also just noticed that the Privacy clause (7) of the Terms of
>> Service state that "You must post a privacy policy and that policy
>> must provide notice of your use of a cookie that collects anonymous
>> traffic data." How many of the projects using google analytics are
>> following this requirement? I know of at least one project that is
>> not...
>
> I don't know us to be in violation of any specific US laws, but I'm
> almost
> certain that we are in violation of several progressive Western
> European
> laws on privacy by failing to fulfill this requirement.
The en-GB version of the Analytics' Terms or Service contains the
following suggested text. Seems reasonable to me. It doesn't say
anything about how we, Apache projects, might use the data. That
doesn't seem necessary and probably would be project specific.
“This website uses Google Analytics, a web analytics service provided
by Google, Inc. (“Google”). Google Analytics uses “cookies”, which
are text files placed on your computer, to help the website analyze
how users use the site. The information generated by the cookie about
your use of the website (including your IP address) will be
transmitted to and stored by Google on servers in the United States .
Google will use this information for the purpose of evaluating your
use of the website, compiling reports on website activity for website
operators and providing other services relating to website activity
and internet usage. Google may also transfer this information to
third parties where required to do so by law, or where such third
parties process the information on Google's behalf. Google will not
associate your IP address with any other data held by Google. You may
refuse the use of cookies by selecting the appropriate settings on
your browser, however please note that if you do this you may not be
able to use the full functionality of this website. By using this
website, you consent to the processing of data about you by Google in
the manner and for the purposes set out above.”
I need to get the Geronimo site updated (although I'm of half a mind
to turn the whole thing off).
--kevan
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Kevan Miller wrote:
>
> I also just noticed that the Privacy clause (7) of the Terms of Service
> state that "You must post a privacy policy and that policy must provide
> notice of your use of a cookie that collects anonymous traffic data."
> How many of the projects using google analytics are following this
> requirement? I know of at least one project that is not...
I don't know us to be in violation of any specific US laws, but I'm almost
certain that we are in violation of several progressive Western European
laws on privacy by failing to fulfill this requirement.
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Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Kevan Miller <ke...@gmail.com>.
On Sep 4, 2008, at 4:43 PM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Jukka Zitting
> <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> A number of Apache projects are already using Google Analytics on
>> their web sites, and I believe that the normal mode of operation is
>> that access to the analytics data is given to any interested
>> committer
>> or PMC member.
>
> As a matter of policy, I believe if we collect this information, we
> must make it available to everyone - including the general public.
> This is our policy with the analytics that we harvest ourselves
> (http://people.apache.org/~henkp/analog/). -- justin
Hmm. Do we make all *data* that we collect available? Or just the
analytics that we compute? I didn't think web server access logs were
publicly available, for example. One policy question would be are we
ok with the data that Google Analytics collects and makes available?
It seems that Google Analytics provides more information than is
currently made available by Vadim's or Henk's tools.
As already noted, the Terms of Service limit the data to "internal
use". I hadn't noticed this when I looked at Google Analytics,
previously.
I also just noticed that the Privacy clause (7) of the Terms of
Service state that "You must post a privacy policy and that policy
must provide notice of your use of a cookie that collects anonymous
traffic data." How many of the projects using google analytics are
following this requirement? I know of at least one project that is
not...
--kevan
Re: Any legal issues with Google Analytics?
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A number of Apache projects are already using Google Analytics on
> their web sites, and I believe that the normal mode of operation is
> that access to the analytics data is given to any interested committer
> or PMC member.
As a matter of policy, I believe if we collect this information, we
must make it available to everyone - including the general public.
This is our policy with the analytics that we harvest ourselves
(http://people.apache.org/~henkp/analog/). -- justin
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