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Posted to dev@netbeans.apache.org by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com> on 2017/05/30 06:26:25 UTC
Status of Hibernate in Apache?
Hi all,
Does anyone have insight into the status of Hibernate in Apache.
The reason I am asking this is because Oracle is unable to donate these
files to Apache, since these files do not belong to Oracle:
hibernate/src/org/netbeans/modules/hibernate/resources/hibernate-configuration-3.0.dtd
hibernate/src/org/netbeans/modules/hibernate/resources/hibernate-mapping-3.0.dtd
hibernate/src/org/netbeans/modules/hibernate/resources/hibernate-reverse-engineering-3.0.dtd
Hence, we are deleting the above files from the Apache NetBeans donation.
But, as a result, the Apache NetBeans build will fail, since the above
three files are used to generate a number of files, e.g.,
"org.netbeans.modules.hibernate.cfg.model.Event" is generated from the
above files, during the build process.
My suggestion would be that as soon as the NetBeans code has been donated
to Apache and that code is physically in an Apache Git repo, we add the
above three files in the above three location, i.e.,
"hibernate/src/org/netbeans/modules/hibernate/resources" and then the build
will succeed again.
On the other hand, is Hibernate licensed such that Apache has no problem
distributing the above files? If Apache has a problem with Hibernate, this
means we'll need to remove the Hibernate functionality from NetBeans, at
some point, and we may as well do that now, rather than later in Apache,
which would have as a benefit that we'd be able to provide a buildable
Apache NetBeans, rather than one that is initially broken.
Thanks,
Geertjan
Re: Status of Hibernate in Apache?
Posted by ehsavoie <em...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
We could provide a way to download the hibernate jar file on first usage
(like it was done for JUnit iirc) and like I keep on promising I'll do for
WildFly ;)
I can ping some of the hibernate team if you need it.
Cheers,
Emmanuel
----------
Emmanuel Hugonnet
http://www.ehsavoie.com
http://twitter.com/ehsavoie
On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 1:35 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I see, discoverability is a good point.
>
> The DTDs don't seem a blocker to me. It's doable to create a clean room
> implementation for those DTDs based on the existing body of Hibernate
> configuration XML files.
>
> We are also in talks with them to see if they could relicense the DTDs.
>
> The big problem is the Hibernate JARs which we will not be able to
> distribute under Apache.
>
> So, we might be able to provide some Hibernate "configuration" (via the
> DTDs) out of the box but no Hibernate execution.
>
>
>
> --emi
>
> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 2:07 PM, Neil C Smith <
> neilcsmith.net@googlemail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 10:38 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > There is an older thread about the Plugin Portal which will be handled
> > > outside Apache.
> > >
> > > You could revive that thread or start another one.
> > >
> >
> > Sorry, I wasn't intending that question to be entirely devoid of the
> > context of this thread. I probably agree with Geertjan with moving this
> > out into a plugin outside of Apache, but hey I've never used it! :-) In
> > general, moving support for third-party libraries into plugins might make
> > sense, but I'm also concerned at us adding barriers for end users.
> > Therefore ease of discovery of previously built-in features, how the
> plugin
> > portal works longer term, UI changes to support that, etc. feel relevant
> to
> > me in making decisions on this sort of thing.
> >
> > I think approaching Hibernate and asking for clarification / relicensing
> of
> > the DTDs makes sense anyway, and useful even if this becomes a plugin.
> And
> > it seems odd to license DTDs in that way. If relicensing is an option,
> > then it might be easier/better to look at this again later.
> >
> > Incidentally, given that this would be running on the JDK anyway, how
> > feasible is doing the build of these classes on first run rather than at
> > build time?
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> > --
> > Neil C Smith
> > Artist & Technologist
> > www.neilcsmith.net
> >
> > Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
> >
>
Re: Status of Hibernate in Apache?
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
I see, discoverability is a good point.
The DTDs don't seem a blocker to me. It's doable to create a clean room
implementation for those DTDs based on the existing body of Hibernate
configuration XML files.
We are also in talks with them to see if they could relicense the DTDs.
The big problem is the Hibernate JARs which we will not be able to
distribute under Apache.
So, we might be able to provide some Hibernate "configuration" (via the
DTDs) out of the box but no Hibernate execution.
--emi
On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 2:07 PM, Neil C Smith <neilcsmith.net@googlemail.com
> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 10:38 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > There is an older thread about the Plugin Portal which will be handled
> > outside Apache.
> >
> > You could revive that thread or start another one.
> >
>
> Sorry, I wasn't intending that question to be entirely devoid of the
> context of this thread. I probably agree with Geertjan with moving this
> out into a plugin outside of Apache, but hey I've never used it! :-) In
> general, moving support for third-party libraries into plugins might make
> sense, but I'm also concerned at us adding barriers for end users.
> Therefore ease of discovery of previously built-in features, how the plugin
> portal works longer term, UI changes to support that, etc. feel relevant to
> me in making decisions on this sort of thing.
>
> I think approaching Hibernate and asking for clarification / relicensing of
> the DTDs makes sense anyway, and useful even if this becomes a plugin. And
> it seems odd to license DTDs in that way. If relicensing is an option,
> then it might be easier/better to look at this again later.
>
> Incidentally, given that this would be running on the JDK anyway, how
> feasible is doing the build of these classes on first run rather than at
> build time?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
> --
> Neil C Smith
> Artist & Technologist
> www.neilcsmith.net
>
> Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
>
Re: Status of Hibernate in Apache?
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@googlemail.com>.
Hi,
On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 10:38 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> There is an older thread about the Plugin Portal which will be handled
> outside Apache.
>
> You could revive that thread or start another one.
>
Sorry, I wasn't intending that question to be entirely devoid of the
context of this thread. I probably agree with Geertjan with moving this
out into a plugin outside of Apache, but hey I've never used it! :-) In
general, moving support for third-party libraries into plugins might make
sense, but I'm also concerned at us adding barriers for end users.
Therefore ease of discovery of previously built-in features, how the plugin
portal works longer term, UI changes to support that, etc. feel relevant to
me in making decisions on this sort of thing.
I think approaching Hibernate and asking for clarification / relicensing of
the DTDs makes sense anyway, and useful even if this becomes a plugin. And
it seems odd to license DTDs in that way. If relicensing is an option,
then it might be easier/better to look at this again later.
Incidentally, given that this would be running on the JDK anyway, how
feasible is doing the build of these classes on first run rather than at
build time?
Best wishes,
Neil
--
Neil C Smith
Artist & Technologist
www.neilcsmith.net
Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
Re: Status of Hibernate in Apache?
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
There is an older thread about the Plugin Portal which will be handled outside Apache.
You could revive that thread or start another one.
--emi
Pe 31 mai 2017, la 12:17, Neil C Smith <ne...@googlemail.com> a scris:
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 10:01 AM Geertjan Wielenga <
> geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> And then, whoever cares about that code, i.e., about those
>> features, which could be me personally or anyone else personally, would put
>> that code in GitHub and work on it there with anyone else who cares about
>> it.
>>
>
> A related question - not sure if this has already been discussed -
> apologies if it has. What's the plan for distribution of plugins in
> future? In particular, I assume that we won't be able to distribute
> non-Apache plugins and/or non-compatible licensed plugins through Apache's
> web infrastructure?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
> --
> Neil C Smith
> Artist & Technologist
> www.neilcsmith.net
>
> Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
Re: Status of Hibernate in Apache?
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@googlemail.com>.
Hi,
On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 10:01 AM Geertjan Wielenga <
geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
> And then, whoever cares about that code, i.e., about those
> features, which could be me personally or anyone else personally, would put
> that code in GitHub and work on it there with anyone else who cares about
> it.
>
A related question - not sure if this has already been discussed -
apologies if it has. What's the plan for distribution of plugins in
future? In particular, I assume that we won't be able to distribute
non-Apache plugins and/or non-compatible licensed plugins through Apache's
web infrastructure?
Best wishes,
Neil
--
Neil C Smith
Artist & Technologist
www.neilcsmith.net
Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
Re: Status of Hibernate in Apache?
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
This sounds good. If it reaches the Apache repo it will be under the Apache license and forked as such. Then we have the option of re-adding the modules in the future.
My concerns was that the modules are not donated and remain under the old licenses which might complicate future inclusion.
--emi
Pe 31 mai 2017, la 12:00, Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com> a scris:
> The owner will be whoever decides to do this -- and it will definitely not
> be ASF and definitely not Oracle.
>
> I.e., I would propose that we remove all Hibernate-related code, i.e., the
> tooling, wizards, whatevers, as soon as we have the code in the Apache
> repository. And then, whoever cares about that code, i.e., about those
> features, which could be me personally or anyone else personally, would put
> that code in GitHub and work on it there with anyone else who cares about
> it.
>
> Gj
>
> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 10:36 AM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> If it's not just about the DTDs but the JAR too the we should move it
>> outside the repo.
>>
>> Still, relicensing the code would help.
>>
>> How will be the owner of the Hibernate related code: the ASF or Oracle?
>>
>> --emi
>>
>> Pe 31 mai 2017, la 11:18, Geertjan Wielenga <geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.
>> com> a scris:
>>
>>> Not only do we have these three DTDs that are licensed LGPL, we also have
>>> the LGPL Hibernate 4.3.1 JAR in the Java cluster.
>>>
>>> Sooner or later we're going to have to deal with that. I'd be in favor of
>>> removing Hibernate completely from Apache NetBeans and making it
>> available
>>> as some kind of separate plugin, with the source code hosted outside
>>> Apache, i.e., on GitHub somewhere.
>>>
>>> Gj
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:46 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
>>> bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
>>>> <ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>> ...4. We could ask Apache for a legal decision on whether these DTDs
>>>> could be
>>>>> included, since we're not distributing them -- we're only using them to
>>>>> build NetBeans....
>>>>
>>>> I think the (P)PMC can make that decision, best is to create a jira
>>>> ticket so it's properly documented, and I would refer to that ticket
>>>> in the LICENSE.TXT specifying that those are only used for building.
>>>>
>>>> -Bertrand
>>>>
>>
Re: Status of Hibernate in Apache?
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>.
The owner will be whoever decides to do this -- and it will definitely not
be ASF and definitely not Oracle.
I.e., I would propose that we remove all Hibernate-related code, i.e., the
tooling, wizards, whatevers, as soon as we have the code in the Apache
repository. And then, whoever cares about that code, i.e., about those
features, which could be me personally or anyone else personally, would put
that code in GitHub and work on it there with anyone else who cares about
it.
Gj
On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 10:36 AM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> If it's not just about the DTDs but the JAR too the we should move it
> outside the repo.
>
> Still, relicensing the code would help.
>
> How will be the owner of the Hibernate related code: the ASF or Oracle?
>
> --emi
>
> Pe 31 mai 2017, la 11:18, Geertjan Wielenga <geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.
> com> a scris:
>
> > Not only do we have these three DTDs that are licensed LGPL, we also have
> > the LGPL Hibernate 4.3.1 JAR in the Java cluster.
> >
> > Sooner or later we're going to have to deal with that. I'd be in favor of
> > removing Hibernate completely from Apache NetBeans and making it
> available
> > as some kind of separate plugin, with the source code hosted outside
> > Apache, i.e., on GitHub somewhere.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:46 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
> >> <ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >>> ...4. We could ask Apache for a legal decision on whether these DTDs
> >> could be
> >>> included, since we're not distributing them -- we're only using them to
> >>> build NetBeans....
> >>
> >> I think the (P)PMC can make that decision, best is to create a jira
> >> ticket so it's properly documented, and I would refer to that ticket
> >> in the LICENSE.TXT specifying that those are only used for building.
> >>
> >> -Bertrand
> >>
>
Re: Status of Hibernate in Apache?
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
If it's not just about the DTDs but the JAR too the we should move it outside the repo.
Still, relicensing the code would help.
How will be the owner of the Hibernate related code: the ASF or Oracle?
--emi
Pe 31 mai 2017, la 11:18, Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com> a scris:
> Not only do we have these three DTDs that are licensed LGPL, we also have
> the LGPL Hibernate 4.3.1 JAR in the Java cluster.
>
> Sooner or later we're going to have to deal with that. I'd be in favor of
> removing Hibernate completely from Apache NetBeans and making it available
> as some kind of separate plugin, with the source code hosted outside
> Apache, i.e., on GitHub somewhere.
>
> Gj
>
>
> On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:46 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
>> <ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> ...4. We could ask Apache for a legal decision on whether these DTDs
>> could be
>>> included, since we're not distributing them -- we're only using them to
>>> build NetBeans....
>>
>> I think the (P)PMC can make that decision, best is to create a jira
>> ticket so it's properly documented, and I would refer to that ticket
>> in the LICENSE.TXT specifying that those are only used for building.
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
Re: Status of Hibernate in Apache?
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>.
Not only do we have these three DTDs that are licensed LGPL, we also have
the LGPL Hibernate 4.3.1 JAR in the Java cluster.
Sooner or later we're going to have to deal with that. I'd be in favor of
removing Hibernate completely from Apache NetBeans and making it available
as some kind of separate plugin, with the source code hosted outside
Apache, i.e., on GitHub somewhere.
Gj
On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:46 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > ...4. We could ask Apache for a legal decision on whether these DTDs
> could be
> > included, since we're not distributing them -- we're only using them to
> > build NetBeans....
>
> I think the (P)PMC can make that decision, best is to create a jira
> ticket so it's properly documented, and I would refer to that ticket
> in the LICENSE.TXT specifying that those are only used for building.
>
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Status of Hibernate in Apache?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> ...4. We could ask Apache for a legal decision on whether these DTDs could be
> included, since we're not distributing them -- we're only using them to
> build NetBeans....
I think the (P)PMC can make that decision, best is to create a jira
ticket so it's properly documented, and I would refer to that ticket
in the LICENSE.TXT specifying that those are only used for building.
-Bertrand
Re: Status of Hibernate in Apache?
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>.
Several options here, i.e., or combinations of the below:
1. We could decide to exclude Hibernate completely from NetBeans.
2. We could ask the Hibernate team if they're able to relicense their DTDs
to Apache or at least to move away from GPL.
3. Jan Lahoda from Oracle tells me: "I wonder if we could download the DTDs
in some form during the build, and let the build use that. It seems that at
least the configuration and mapping DTDs are in the
org.hibernate:hibernate:3.0 in Maven repository, so presumably we could
download directly from there."
4. We could ask Apache for a legal decision on whether these DTDs could be
included, since we're not distributing them -- we're only using them to
build NetBeans.
Gj
On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 9:01 AM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Actually, no, we cannot use them. In the Git repo the DTD license seems to
> be LGPL 2.1:
>
> https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/blob/master/
> hibernate-core/src/main/resources/org/hibernate/
> hibernate-mapping-3.0.dtd#L4
>
>
> --emi
>
> On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > This seems to be minor. We are not including Hibernate binaries, just the
> > 3 DTDs which have no explicit license on them.
> >
> > We should ask the Hibernate devs for clarification on the DTD licensing.
> >
> > Until then I believe we might even be able to grab the DTDs from the
> > canonical URL instead of including the resources in the JAR? Of course,
> > this will require network access...
> >
> >
> >
> > --emi
> >
> > On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 9:26 AM, Geertjan Wielenga <
> > geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> Does anyone have insight into the status of Hibernate in Apache.
> >>
> >> The reason I am asking this is because Oracle is unable to donate these
> >> files to Apache, since these files do not belong to Oracle:
> >>
> >> hibernate/src/org/netbeans/modules/hibernate/resources/hiber
> >> nate-configuration-3.0.dtd
> >> hibernate/src/org/netbeans/modules/hibernate/resources/hiber
> >> nate-mapping-3.0.dtd
> >> hibernate/src/org/netbeans/modules/hibernate/resources/hiber
> >> nate-reverse-engineering-3.0.dtd
> >>
> >> Hence, we are deleting the above files from the Apache NetBeans
> donation.
> >>
> >> But, as a result, the Apache NetBeans build will fail, since the above
> >> three files are used to generate a number of files, e.g.,
> >> "org.netbeans.modules.hibernate.cfg.model.Event" is generated from the
> >> above files, during the build process.
> >>
> >> My suggestion would be that as soon as the NetBeans code has been
> donated
> >> to Apache and that code is physically in an Apache Git repo, we add the
> >> above three files in the above three location, i.e.,
> >> "hibernate/src/org/netbeans/modules/hibernate/resources" and then the
> >> build
> >> will succeed again.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, is Hibernate licensed such that Apache has no problem
> >> distributing the above files? If Apache has a problem with Hibernate,
> this
> >> means we'll need to remove the Hibernate functionality from NetBeans, at
> >> some point, and we may as well do that now, rather than later in Apache,
> >> which would have as a benefit that we'd be able to provide a buildable
> >> Apache NetBeans, rather than one that is initially broken.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Geertjan
> >>
> >
> >
>
Re: Status of Hibernate in Apache?
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
Actually, no, we cannot use them. In the Git repo the DTD license seems to
be LGPL 2.1:
https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/blob/master/hibernate-core/src/main/resources/org/hibernate/hibernate-mapping-3.0.dtd#L4
--emi
On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> This seems to be minor. We are not including Hibernate binaries, just the
> 3 DTDs which have no explicit license on them.
>
> We should ask the Hibernate devs for clarification on the DTD licensing.
>
> Until then I believe we might even be able to grab the DTDs from the
> canonical URL instead of including the resources in the JAR? Of course,
> this will require network access...
>
>
>
> --emi
>
> On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 9:26 AM, Geertjan Wielenga <
> geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Does anyone have insight into the status of Hibernate in Apache.
>>
>> The reason I am asking this is because Oracle is unable to donate these
>> files to Apache, since these files do not belong to Oracle:
>>
>> hibernate/src/org/netbeans/modules/hibernate/resources/hiber
>> nate-configuration-3.0.dtd
>> hibernate/src/org/netbeans/modules/hibernate/resources/hiber
>> nate-mapping-3.0.dtd
>> hibernate/src/org/netbeans/modules/hibernate/resources/hiber
>> nate-reverse-engineering-3.0.dtd
>>
>> Hence, we are deleting the above files from the Apache NetBeans donation.
>>
>> But, as a result, the Apache NetBeans build will fail, since the above
>> three files are used to generate a number of files, e.g.,
>> "org.netbeans.modules.hibernate.cfg.model.Event" is generated from the
>> above files, during the build process.
>>
>> My suggestion would be that as soon as the NetBeans code has been donated
>> to Apache and that code is physically in an Apache Git repo, we add the
>> above three files in the above three location, i.e.,
>> "hibernate/src/org/netbeans/modules/hibernate/resources" and then the
>> build
>> will succeed again.
>>
>> On the other hand, is Hibernate licensed such that Apache has no problem
>> distributing the above files? If Apache has a problem with Hibernate, this
>> means we'll need to remove the Hibernate functionality from NetBeans, at
>> some point, and we may as well do that now, rather than later in Apache,
>> which would have as a benefit that we'd be able to provide a buildable
>> Apache NetBeans, rather than one that is initially broken.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Geertjan
>>
>
>
Re: Status of Hibernate in Apache?
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
This seems to be minor. We are not including Hibernate binaries, just the 3
DTDs which have no explicit license on them.
We should ask the Hibernate devs for clarification on the DTD licensing.
Until then I believe we might even be able to grab the DTDs from the
canonical URL instead of including the resources in the JAR? Of course,
this will require network access...
--emi
On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 9:26 AM, Geertjan Wielenga <
geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Does anyone have insight into the status of Hibernate in Apache.
>
> The reason I am asking this is because Oracle is unable to donate these
> files to Apache, since these files do not belong to Oracle:
>
> hibernate/src/org/netbeans/modules/hibernate/resources/
> hibernate-configuration-3.0.dtd
> hibernate/src/org/netbeans/modules/hibernate/resources/
> hibernate-mapping-3.0.dtd
> hibernate/src/org/netbeans/modules/hibernate/resources/
> hibernate-reverse-engineering-3.0.dtd
>
> Hence, we are deleting the above files from the Apache NetBeans donation.
>
> But, as a result, the Apache NetBeans build will fail, since the above
> three files are used to generate a number of files, e.g.,
> "org.netbeans.modules.hibernate.cfg.model.Event" is generated from the
> above files, during the build process.
>
> My suggestion would be that as soon as the NetBeans code has been donated
> to Apache and that code is physically in an Apache Git repo, we add the
> above three files in the above three location, i.e.,
> "hibernate/src/org/netbeans/modules/hibernate/resources" and then the
> build
> will succeed again.
>
> On the other hand, is Hibernate licensed such that Apache has no problem
> distributing the above files? If Apache has a problem with Hibernate, this
> means we'll need to remove the Hibernate functionality from NetBeans, at
> some point, and we may as well do that now, rather than later in Apache,
> which would have as a benefit that we'd be able to provide a buildable
> Apache NetBeans, rather than one that is initially broken.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Geertjan
>