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Posted to dev@tomee.apache.org by David Blevins <da...@gmail.com> on 2015/04/24 03:38:47 UTC
Re: PMC and voting
Reviving this thread as Mark pinged me offline about this topic. Better to
talk openly, so Mark consider this your response :)
Let's open this discussion up again. If there are committers that wish to
take on the legal work required for releases, perhaps even cut some
releases we should add.
Before volunteering, however, please read:
- http://tomee.apache.org/management-and-voting.html
We've gone years with little to no traffic on the private@ list. If we
suddenly turned into a closed community, it'd be a sad thing.
-David
On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 8:29 AM, David Blevins <da...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Some basic information on PMCs and voting:
>
> - http://tomee.apache.org/management-and-voting.html
>
> Short answer, being on the PMC brings more work and no additional
> authority. That work is primarily scanning the legal files every single
> release before you vote. Scanning them means you need to fully understand
> what they are and how they work, when they need updating and how to do
> that. You become part of Apache's legal shield against legal trouble.
> Being on the PMC and not understanding or performing all the above and
> still voting, significantly weakens Apache should any legal issue arise.
>
> Here's also a list of all our committers:
>
> - http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#tomee
>
> Looking at our PMC list, it needs to be updated. Kevan actually resigned
> as he no longer has time to do any of the work.
>
> We should probably add a couple more people.
>
>
> -David
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: PMC and voting
Posted by Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de>.
> Am 25.04.2015 um 04:20 schrieb David Blevins <da...@gmail.com>:
> That said, our last vote for a committer was done on our private list. I noted in a board report when that happened that if the trend continued we'd probably have to have to switch to voting in private and dramatically inflate the PMC.
Another point:
Any vote ‚in‘ the open will not be ‚open‘. Simply because there will not many who say some other committer is not yet ready. And as I alraedy explained: most people will NOT speak up that they want to join the community. It’s the PMCs tasks to reach out and invite people who you think can help the project.
LieGrue,
strub
Re: PMC and voting
Posted by Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de>.
You are also clearly not adding PMC members as fast as you could.
And also note that it’s totally not about ’technically I can read’. But to guarantee that we do more releases. For that to happen we need more people to work towards that and more people to vote on the release.
PMCs are essentially a gatekeeper for releases. And we lack speed there.
If this is really open then I propose to add Romain to the PMC. He does a great job in TomEE and surely knows the legal impact as he is PMC in _many_ other ASF projects already.
LieGrue,
strub
> Am 25.04.2015 um 04:20 schrieb David Blevins <da...@gmail.com>:
>
> On Apr 24, 2015, at 12:24 AM, Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de> wrote:
>
>> I apreciate your attempt to openness but I fear it doesn’t work that way.
>
> I wouldn't call 8 years of voting in the open an "attempt" :)
>
> The board is aware of how we operate. As long as projects stick to the "constitution", they are free to govern themselves as they see fit and make their own guidelines. The Incubator guidelines, for example, do not apply outside the Incubator.
>
> That said, our last vote for a committer was done on our private list. I noted in a board report when that happened that if the trend continued we'd probably have to have to switch to voting in private and dramatically inflate the PMC.
>
> It's up to the project. I support whatever we want to do. If people feel more comfortable voting in private then that is what we should do.
>
> I will note, however, that private lists are not entirely private. There are currently 1312 people with access to our "private" list. All ASF Members can subscribe, read and post to the private@ list of any project. So the one time we did vote in private it was rather pointless as the person in question, you :), is a member and can read the thread.
>
> As I say, however, I support whatever we want to do. I admit being on the fence myself. Even I wonder from time to time if we've outgrown voting in public as we're bigger now, there's more attention on us, and we are clearly not adding committers as fast as we could.
>
> Community thoughts?
>
>
> -David
>
Re: PMC and voting
Posted by David Blevins <da...@gmail.com>.
On Apr 24, 2015, at 12:24 AM, Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de> wrote:
> I apreciate your attempt to openness but I fear it doesn’t work that way.
I wouldn't call 8 years of voting in the open an "attempt" :)
The board is aware of how we operate. As long as projects stick to the "constitution", they are free to govern themselves as they see fit and make their own guidelines. The Incubator guidelines, for example, do not apply outside the Incubator.
That said, our last vote for a committer was done on our private list. I noted in a board report when that happened that if the trend continued we'd probably have to have to switch to voting in private and dramatically inflate the PMC.
It's up to the project. I support whatever we want to do. If people feel more comfortable voting in private then that is what we should do.
I will note, however, that private lists are not entirely private. There are currently 1312 people with access to our "private" list. All ASF Members can subscribe, read and post to the private@ list of any project. So the one time we did vote in private it was rather pointless as the person in question, you :), is a member and can read the thread.
As I say, however, I support whatever we want to do. I admit being on the fence myself. Even I wonder from time to time if we've outgrown voting in public as we're bigger now, there's more attention on us, and we are clearly not adding committers as fast as we could.
Community thoughts?
-David
Re: PMC and voting
Posted by Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de>.
Hi David!
I apreciate your attempt to openness but I fear it doesn’t work that way. In the incubator and general PMC guideline docs you can find that a VOTE thread on new committers and pmc members must be held by the PMC on the projects private list. And for a good reason.
What would you do if someone just ships 3 pretty simple patches and demands to get invited to be committer and pmc on the dev list? What would you tell him? And what would you tell him if it were 35 patches and still clearly don’t get the core principles of your project? Would you disgrace him on the public dev list?
The point is that the ASF is mainly community AND merrit based. We neither want people to get on the PMC which are (yet) too inexperienced, nor do we want let them to wait too long and then be fed up and leave the community (because it really sucks if you ship good patches which often don’t get applied).
By encouraging people to ask for getting committership and pmc membership you might not get the best people, but only the loudest…
And in the linke you cite you btw over-emphase the legal aspect. Even a committer must be legally aware what he does and it’s him who must stand his (wo)man if there are problems.
LieGrue,
strub
> Am 24.04.2015 um 03:38 schrieb David Blevins <da...@gmail.com>:
>
> Reviving this thread as Mark pinged me offline about this topic. Better to talk openly, so Mark consider this your response :)
>
> Let's open this discussion up again. If there are committers that wish to take on the legal work required for releases, perhaps even cut some releases we should add.
>
> Before volunteering, however, please read:
>
> - http://tomee.apache.org/management-and-voting.html
>
> We've gone years with little to no traffic on the private@ list. If we suddenly turned into a closed community, it'd be a sad thing.
>
>
> -David
>
> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 8:29 AM, David Blevins <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Some basic information on PMCs and voting:
>
> - http://tomee.apache.org/management-and-voting.html
>
> Short answer, being on the PMC brings more work and no additional authority. That work is primarily scanning the legal files every single release before you vote. Scanning them means you need to fully understand what they are and how they work, when they need updating and how to do that. You become part of Apache's legal shield against legal trouble. Being on the PMC and not understanding or performing all the above and still voting, significantly weakens Apache should any legal issue arise.
>
> Here's also a list of all our committers:
>
> - http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#tomee
>
> Looking at our PMC list, it needs to be updated. Kevan actually resigned as he no longer has time to do any of the work.
>
> We should probably add a couple more people.
>
>
> -David
>
>
>
>
>
>