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Posted to users@spamassassin.apache.org by Thomas Mullins <ts...@wise.k12.va.us> on 2009/10/05 21:42:04 UTC
OT bad news
We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something
that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer.
Shane
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Jari Fredriksson <ja...@iki.fi>.
> We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years
> now. But, my coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they
> have finally complained enough that my boss is going to
> replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They
> are planning on purchasing something that runs ON
> Exchange. What a bummer.
>
> Shane
Indeed.
However, if you have a competent feeling about yourself, you might be tempted to search for new opportunities ;)
Nah.. you do what your boss sees is good. It's not your money, I guess.
RE: OT bad news
Posted by "Peter P. Benac" <pp...@emacolet.com>.
Glad I don't live in Virginia!! I hate to see my tax dollars wasted
because people don't understand OpenSource.. Especially in these troubled
times.
From: Thomas Mullins [mailto:tsmullins@wise.k12.va.us]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 15:42
To: users@spamassassin.apache.org
Subject: OT bad news
We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough
that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes.
They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a
bummer.
Shane
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Jefferson Davis <jd...@standard.k12.ca.us>.
k12 is kindergarten through 12th grade in US schools...
----- Message from guenther@rudersport.de ---------
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:33:26 +0200
From: Karsten Bräckelmann <gu...@rudersport.de>
Subject: Re: OT bad news
To: users@spamassassin.apache.org
> On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 13:13 -0700, Jefferson Davis wrote:
>> There are some that still don't get the value of opensource... Go
>> figure.
> [...]
>> We just don't experience the pain that some of my exchange-using
>> collegues do...
>
> Since we're off-topic anyway -- I take this response, and the mention of
> "school district" earlier in this thread, that this indeed is just a
> strange coincidence and infrastructural independent states.
>
> Now, if someone could briefly enlighten me about the structure,
> relation, and what the k12 means... :)
>
>
>> From: Karsten Bräckelmann <gu...@rudersport.de>
>> > [1] And Jefferson Davis? The k12.[cv]a.us domain coincidence today
>> > strikes me as quite odd.
>
> --
> char *t="\10pse\0r\0dtu\0.@ghno\x4e\xc8\x79\xf4\xab\x51\x8a\x10\xf4\xf4\xc4";
> main(){ char h,m=h=*t++,*x=t+2*h,c,i,l=*x,s=0; for (i=0;i<l;i++){ i%8? c<<=1:
> (c=*++x); c&128 && (s+=h); if (!(h>>=1)||!t[s+h]){ putchar(t[s]);h=m;s=0; }}}
>
>
----- End message from guenther@rudersport.de -----
--
Jefferson K Davis
Technology and Information Systems Manager
Standard School District
1200 North Chester Ave
Bakersfield, CA 93308
661.392.2110
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Karsten Bräckelmann <gu...@rudersport.de>.
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 22:33 +0200, Karsten Bräckelmann wrote:
> Since we're off-topic anyway -- I take this response, and the mention of
> "school district" earlier in this thread, that this indeed is just a
> strange coincidence and infrastructural independent states.
>
> Now, if someone could briefly enlighten me about the structure,
> relation, and what the k12 means... :)
Heh, scratch that -- I see Dan already answered this. :) Oh, and so did
someone off-list right this moment. Thanks!
--
char *t="\10pse\0r\0dtu\0.@ghno\x4e\xc8\x79\xf4\xab\x51\x8a\x10\xf4\xf4\xc4";
main(){ char h,m=h=*t++,*x=t+2*h,c,i,l=*x,s=0; for (i=0;i<l;i++){ i%8? c<<=1:
(c=*++x); c&128 && (s+=h); if (!(h>>=1)||!t[s+h]){ putchar(t[s]);h=m;s=0; }}}
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Karsten Bräckelmann <gu...@rudersport.de>.
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 13:13 -0700, Jefferson Davis wrote:
> There are some that still don't get the value of opensource... Go
> figure.
[...]
> We just don't experience the pain that some of my exchange-using
> collegues do...
Since we're off-topic anyway -- I take this response, and the mention of
"school district" earlier in this thread, that this indeed is just a
strange coincidence and infrastructural independent states.
Now, if someone could briefly enlighten me about the structure,
relation, and what the k12 means... :)
> From: Karsten Bräckelmann <gu...@rudersport.de>
> > [1] And Jefferson Davis? The k12.[cv]a.us domain coincidence today
> > strikes me as quite odd.
--
char *t="\10pse\0r\0dtu\0.@ghno\x4e\xc8\x79\xf4\xab\x51\x8a\x10\xf4\xf4\xc4";
main(){ char h,m=h=*t++,*x=t+2*h,c,i,l=*x,s=0; for (i=0;i<l;i++){ i%8? c<<=1:
(c=*++x); c&128 && (s+=h); if (!(h>>=1)||!t[s+h]){ putchar(t[s]);h=m;s=0; }}}
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Karsten Bräckelmann <gu...@rudersport.de>.
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 13:23 -0700, John Hardin wrote:
> I guess the comfort of the illusion of having somebody to sue is a strong
> attraction.
Now there's one argument to start smoking...
(SCNR, and it's probably the cold speaking anyway. ;)
--
char *t="\10pse\0r\0dtu\0.@ghno\x4e\xc8\x79\xf4\xab\x51\x8a\x10\xf4\xf4\xc4";
main(){ char h,m=h=*t++,*x=t+2*h,c,i,l=*x,s=0; for (i=0;i<l;i++){ i%8? c<<=1:
(c=*++x); c&128 && (s+=h); if (!(h>>=1)||!t[s+h]){ putchar(t[s]);h=m;s=0; }}}
Re: OT bad news
Posted by John Hardin <jh...@impsec.org>.
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Jefferson Davis wrote:
> There are some that still don't get the value of opensource... Go figure.
My employer has contracts that specify "no open source".
I guess the comfort of the illusion of having somebody to sue is a strong
attraction.
--
John Hardin KA7OHZ http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
jhardin@impsec.org FALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhardin@impsec.org
key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Any time law enforcement becomes a revenue center, the system
becomes corrupt.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Approximately 9190800 firearms legally purchased in the U.S. this year
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Jefferson Davis <jd...@standard.k12.ca.us>.
There are some that still don't get the value of opensource... Go figure.
In a down economy it makes even more sense... Many of my collegues in other districts are finally taking notice, then really liking the high quality of the software once they get their feet wet.
I cannot profess to be any kind of expert (see previous post today for an example) but we've been using as much OSS as we can justify for almost 10 years now.
We just don't experience the pain that some of my exchange-using collegues do...
----- Message from guenther@rudersport.de ---------
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:00:08 +0200
From: Karsten Bräckelmann <gu...@rudersport.de>
Subject: Re: OT bad news
To: users@spamassassin.apache.org
> On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 15:42 -0400, Thomas Mullins wrote:
>> We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
>> coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
>> enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
>> FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something
>> that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer.
>
> Wow, now that sounds like really bad news for you [1] and your coworkers
> indeed. :-/ And not the second best option either...
>
>
> [1] And Jefferson Davis? The k12.[cv]a.us domain coincidence today
> strikes me as quite odd.
>
> --
> char *t="\10pse\0r\0dtu\0.@ghno\x4e\xc8\x79\xf4\xab\x51\x8a\x10\xf4\xf4\xc4";
> main(){ char h,m=h=*t++,*x=t+2*h,c,i,l=*x,s=0; for (i=0;i<l;i++){ i%8? c<<=1:
> (c=*++x); c&128 && (s+=h); if (!(h>>=1)||!t[s+h]){ putchar(t[s]);h=m;s=0; }}}
>
>
----- End message from guenther@rudersport.de -----
--
Jefferson K Davis
Technology and Information Systems Manager
Standard School District
1200 North Chester Ave
Bakersfield, CA 93308
661.392.2110
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: OT bad news
Posted by "McDonald, Dan" <Da...@austinenergy.com>.
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 22:00 +0200, Karsten Bräckelmann wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 15:42 -0400, Thomas Mullins wrote:
> > We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
> > coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
> > enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
> > FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something
> > that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer.
>
> Wow, now that sounds like really bad news for you [1] and your coworkers
> indeed. :-/ And not the second best option either...
>
>
> [1] And Jefferson Davis? The k12.[cv]a.us domain coincidence today
> strikes me as quite odd.
k12 means a school district (Elementary through High School).
California and Virginia are on opposite coasts of the US.
.us often has 4 levels, like sos.state.tx.us is the root for the Texas
Secretary of State's office. But not always. I own a couple of
example.us domains.
--
Daniel J McDonald, CCIE # 2495, CISSP # 78281, CNX
www.austinenergy.com
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Karsten Bräckelmann <gu...@rudersport.de>.
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 15:42 -0400, Thomas Mullins wrote:
> We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
> coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
> enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
> FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something
> that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer.
Wow, now that sounds like really bad news for you [1] and your coworkers
indeed. :-/ And not the second best option either...
[1] And Jefferson Davis? The k12.[cv]a.us domain coincidence today
strikes me as quite odd.
--
char *t="\10pse\0r\0dtu\0.@ghno\x4e\xc8\x79\xf4\xab\x51\x8a\x10\xf4\xf4\xc4";
main(){ char h,m=h=*t++,*x=t+2*h,c,i,l=*x,s=0; for (i=0;i<l;i++){ i%8? c<<=1:
(c=*++x); c&128 && (s+=h); if (!(h>>=1)||!t[s+h]){ putchar(t[s]);h=m;s=0; }}}
Re: OT bad news
Posted by John Hardin <jh...@impsec.org>.
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Thomas Mullins wrote:
> We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
> coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
> enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
> FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something
> that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer.
Take bets on how much spam will start getting through. Don't let then
welch.
--
John Hardin KA7OHZ http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
jhardin@impsec.org FALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhardin@impsec.org
key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Any time law enforcement becomes a revenue center, the system
becomes corrupt.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Approximately 9190800 firearms legally purchased in the U.S. this year
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Yet Another Ninja <sa...@alexb.ch>.
On 10/5/2009 9:42 PM, Thomas Mullins wrote:
> We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
> coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
> enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
> FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something
> that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer.
>
this reminds me of an ex boss who once said "Open Source is useless
because it doesn't have a GUI".
just keep a machine with your setup read to go.. for the day when their
Exchange explodes (hello GFI!!!).
good luck
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Ted Mittelstaedt <te...@ipinc.net>.
Shane (Or Thomas)
This isn't a debate about Open Source vs commercial software as
much as you would like to think that it is. This is a debate
about something that your familiar with (FreeBSD/Spamassassin)
and that none of your coworkers are familiar with, vs something
that your coworkers are (possibly) familiar with and that you
(possibly) are not. In other words, it's about job security,
and about ambition.
You have had a FreeBSD/Spamassassin solution for 8 years and
you have spent the time to learn it, and your coworkers have
screwed off rather than learn how it works.
Your coworkers finally wised up enough to realize that because
you are the go-to guy, and they aren't, that you can't be
fired and they can. So their logic, which is typical lazy
man's logic, is to get rid of this system that they think it
hard to understand and replace it with a system that they
think it easier to understand, so they can do the minimum amount
of work to learn the system.
You are naive enough to think that once the new Exchange system
comes into use that things won't settle back into the same
rut.
What your going to find is that once Exchange is online, your
lazy-assed coworkers aren't going to do anything more to learn
the system than they do now, and that your going to end up learning
the system - and a year from now, your still going to be the
go-to guy, pulling their hineys out of the fire.
The big difference, is that there will be a system in place that
your lazy-assed coworkers can con your boss into believing
that they understand. So in other words right now, your doing
all the work on the mailsystem, and getting all the credit.
Once your coworkers finish with you, your STILL going to be
doing all the work - but THEY will be taking all the credit.
What you need to be doing is polishing up your resume then
start applying and get yourself a job offer that pays better
than what you have. It might take a year of looking for this.
And in the meantime, if you want to get some well-earned
revenge against your coworkers, then you need to learn
Exchange inside and out, so that the day you walk into your
bosses office and tell him your quitting, that in the instant
he realizes that he's going to be screwed and starts begging
you not to leave, that you can tell him that if he had
supported you against your coworker morons a year ago, you
would support him now - but that since he didn't, he's going to
have to deal with those lazy-asses now.
You stuck your horse's head in the water for 8 years and
your still pouring the water down his throat to get him to
drink. Time to let him die, and find another horse. Some
of them are too pig-headed to ever be trained.
Ted Mittelstaedt
Author, FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide
Thomas Mullins wrote:
> We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
> coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
> enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
> FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something
> that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer.
>
>
>
> Shane
>
Re: OT bad news
Posted by ram <ra...@netcore.co.in>.
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 15:05 -0700, Quanah Gibson-Mount wrote:
> --On Monday, October 05, 2009 11:50 PM +0200 mouss <mo...@ml.netoyen.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Thomas Mullins a écrit :
> >> We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
> >> coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
> >> enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
> >> FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something
> >> that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > and the problem is?
> >
> > if they want exchange, give them exchange. don't fight (directly), watch
> > instead. take pleasure of the situation, get fun as you can. I
> > personally took fun all day long in windows-only (and believe it or not,
> > in linux-only) environments.
> >
> >
> > that said, you can still try to explain that exchange should not be
> > exposed to the internet. you still need a relay (such as freebsd/postfix).
> >
>
> And once exchange falls over, show them Zimbra. ;) Which uses
> postfix/SA/amavis, etc, and looks a lot like exchange... only better. ;)
>
Isnt zimbra dead as yet ? Yahoo deliberately messed it I believe , and
now look to dump it
Anyway I think people run away from open source because it is
"unsupported". Management doesnt want to have any indispensable IT
team , so that they can always recruit some cheap M$$ trained guy from
the market to do a dirty job.
There is also "security" in question. If something goes wrong with your
linux/BSD box *you* will be blamed. If something goes wrong with m$ box
(as usual) they would claim that that is how it is supposed to work :-).
After all it is from the leading software makers.
Never mind that the management also get sponsored International holidays
for putting their entire budget in worthless stuff.
> --Quanah
>
> --
>
> Quanah Gibson-Mount
> Principal Software Engineer
> Zimbra, Inc
> --------------------
> Zimbra :: the leader in open source messaging and collaboration
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Benny Pedersen <me...@junc.org>.
On tir 06 okt 2009 00:05:52 CEST, Quanah Gibson-Mount wrote
> And once exchange falls over, show them Zimbra. ;) Which uses
> postfix/SA/amavis, etc, and looks a lot like exchange... only
> better. ;)
if zimbra was good i would not have choiced horde
--
xpoint
Re: OT bad news
Posted by mouss <mo...@ml.netoyen.net>.
Quanah Gibson-Mount a écrit :
> --On Monday, October 05, 2009 11:50 PM +0200 mouss
> <mo...@ml.netoyen.net> wrote:
>
>> Thomas Mullins a écrit :
>>> We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
>>> coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
>>> enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
>>> FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something
>>> that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> and the problem is?
>>
>> if they want exchange, give them exchange. don't fight (directly), watch
>> instead. take pleasure of the situation, get fun as you can. I
>> personally took fun all day long in windows-only (and believe it or not,
>> in linux-only) environments.
>>
>>
>> that said, you can still try to explain that exchange should not be
>> exposed to the internet. you still need a relay (such as
>> freebsd/postfix).
>>
>
> And once exchange falls over, show them Zimbra. ;) Which uses
> postfix/SA/amavis, etc, and looks a lot like exchange... only better. ;)
>
I have to chose between zimbra and exchange, I'll go for exchange. but I
don't need to chose between the two. I want different components for
different tasks. and for many things, I go for web oriented solutions.
Re: OT bad news
Posted by "--[ UxBoD ]--" <ux...@splatnix.net>.
----- "Quanah Gibson-Mount" <qu...@zimbra.com> wrote:
| --On Monday, October 05, 2009 11:50 PM +0200 mouss
| <mo...@ml.netoyen.net>
| wrote:
|
| > Thomas Mullins a écrit :
| >> We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But,
| my
| >> coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
| >> enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
| >> FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing
| something
| >> that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer.
| >>
| >>
| >
| > and the problem is?
| >
| > if they want exchange, give them exchange. don't fight (directly),
| watch
| > instead. take pleasure of the situation, get fun as you can. I
| > personally took fun all day long in windows-only (and believe it or
| not,
| > in linux-only) environments.
| >
| >
| > that said, you can still try to explain that exchange should not be
| > exposed to the internet. you still need a relay (such as
| freebsd/postfix).
| >
|
| And once exchange falls over, show them Zimbra. ;) Which uses
| postfix/SA/amavis, etc, and looks a lot like exchange... only better.
| ;)
|
| --Quanah
|
Seconded :)
Best Regards,
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content and is believed to be clean.
SplatNIX IT Services :: Innovation through collaboration
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Quanah Gibson-Mount <qu...@zimbra.com>.
--On Monday, October 05, 2009 11:50 PM +0200 mouss <mo...@ml.netoyen.net>
wrote:
> Thomas Mullins a écrit :
>> We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
>> coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
>> enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
>> FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something
>> that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer.
>>
>>
>
> and the problem is?
>
> if they want exchange, give them exchange. don't fight (directly), watch
> instead. take pleasure of the situation, get fun as you can. I
> personally took fun all day long in windows-only (and believe it or not,
> in linux-only) environments.
>
>
> that said, you can still try to explain that exchange should not be
> exposed to the internet. you still need a relay (such as freebsd/postfix).
>
And once exchange falls over, show them Zimbra. ;) Which uses
postfix/SA/amavis, etc, and looks a lot like exchange... only better. ;)
--Quanah
--
Quanah Gibson-Mount
Principal Software Engineer
Zimbra, Inc
--------------------
Zimbra :: the leader in open source messaging and collaboration
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Royce Williams <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 4:12 AM, Dan Schaefer <da...@performanceadmin.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'll have to repeat, for the original poster this isn't a technology
>> vs technology argument. If it was, his coworkers would be listing
>> specific things Exchange does that FreeBSD/SA does not do.
>
> (Standing ovation on both emails)
Uncloaking to vigorously second. Ted is so painfully right on that I
wish that it were otherwise (out of sympathy for the OP).
Royce
RE: OT bad news
Posted by Gary Smith <ga...@holdstead.com>.
> (Standing ovation on both emails)
>
> --
> Dan Schaefer
> Web Developer/Systems Analyst
> Performance Administration Corp.
I feel beat down now :(
j/k
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Dan Schaefer <da...@performanceadmin.com>.
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> Gary Smith wrote:
>
>> Let them have as much Windows stuff as they want. Just plead the
>> case to supplement.
>
> I'll have to repeat, for the original poster this isn't a technology
> vs technology argument. If it was, his coworkers would be listing
> specific things Exchange does that FreeBSD/SA does not do.
>
> This is a political battle. He is essentially in the position of
> a mechanic that someone brings their car to for repair, then sits
> there telling the mechanic what tools he should be using to repair
> their car. If the car gets repaired the owner claims that they
> knew how to repair the car better than the mechanic and the
> mechanic was an idiot. If the car repair fails the owner claims
> the mechanic is incompetent and an idiot. Either way, once your
> boss starts micromanaging, your going to be screwed whether you
> do a good job or not.
>
> He's tried "rescuing" the situation for 8 years, now your giving
> advice to help him "rescue" the situation more. If he "helps" them
> by keeping the BSD server in reserve, and they fall flat on their
> face and he rescues them, then it just is teaching them what to
> fix on their Exchange setup. They will try it again - perhaps
> falling flat again - and this will continue over and over with
> them putting more powerful hardware and more expensive add-on software
> on their exchange box until eventually they will figure it out, make
> him get rid of the BSD box - then they won't fall flat anymore.
>
> Then they will claim how much better Exchange works, completely
> ignoring the fact that he helped them troubleshoot their exchange
> setup.
>
> There is absolutely no fix for these types other than to let them
> fail and not help them back up - just let them be fired for
> incompetence. Trust me - even if that happened to these coworkers
> they will just go to the next employer that's a Windows only shop
> and will never once believe that the Windows solution is worse.
>
> It's just like the people who believe in Apple. They will go spend
> $1K on an iMac and accessories and get -exactly- the same thing that
> I can build with FreeBSD and a whitebox clone for a quarter of the
> cost - but will never believe that they overpaid for what they have.
>
>
> Ted
(Standing ovation on both emails)
--
Dan Schaefer
Web Developer/Systems Analyst
Performance Administration Corp.
Re: OT bad news
Posted by LuKreme <kr...@kreme.com>.
On 5-Oct-2009, at 16:58, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> It's just like the people who believe in Apple. They will go spend
> $1K on an iMac and accessories and get -exactly- the same thing that
> I can build with FreeBSD and a whitebox clone for a quarter of the
> cost - but will never believe that they overpaid for what they have.
Now if that were true then a lot of Unix admins would not have Macs
for their personal machines. If you're buying a machine to be a
mailserver then buying an iMac is silly. If you're buying a machine to
use and to administer unix server, then a Mac is a fine choice
(Probably not an iMac, a MacBookPro).
The question is are there things you want your computer to do outside
of the command line?
--
Mac OS X, because making Unix user-friendly was
easier than fixing Windows
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Ted Mittelstaedt <te...@ipinc.net>.
Gary Smith wrote:
> Let them have as much Windows stuff as they want. Just plead the case to supplement.
I'll have to repeat, for the original poster this isn't a technology
vs technology argument. If it was, his coworkers would be listing
specific things Exchange does that FreeBSD/SA does not do.
This is a political battle. He is essentially in the position of
a mechanic that someone brings their car to for repair, then sits
there telling the mechanic what tools he should be using to repair
their car. If the car gets repaired the owner claims that they
knew how to repair the car better than the mechanic and the
mechanic was an idiot. If the car repair fails the owner claims
the mechanic is incompetent and an idiot. Either way, once your
boss starts micromanaging, your going to be screwed whether you
do a good job or not.
He's tried "rescuing" the situation for 8 years, now your giving
advice to help him "rescue" the situation more. If he "helps" them
by keeping the BSD server in reserve, and they fall flat on their
face and he rescues them, then it just is teaching them what to
fix on their Exchange setup. They will try it again - perhaps
falling flat again - and this will continue over and over with
them putting more powerful hardware and more expensive add-on software
on their exchange box until eventually they will figure it out, make
him get rid of the BSD box - then they won't fall flat anymore.
Then they will claim how much better Exchange works, completely
ignoring the fact that he helped them troubleshoot their exchange
setup.
There is absolutely no fix for these types other than to let them
fail and not help them back up - just let them be fired for
incompetence. Trust me - even if that happened to these coworkers
they will just go to the next employer that's a Windows only shop
and will never once believe that the Windows solution is worse.
It's just like the people who believe in Apple. They will go spend
$1K on an iMac and accessories and get -exactly- the same thing that
I can build with FreeBSD and a whitebox clone for a quarter of the
cost - but will never believe that they overpaid for what they have.
Ted
RE: OT bad news
Posted by Gary Smith <ga...@holdstead.com>.
> and the problem is?
>
> if they want exchange, give them exchange. don't fight (directly),
> watch
> instead. take pleasure of the situation, get fun as you can. I
> personally took fun all day long in windows-only (and believe it or
> not,
> in linux-only) environments.
>
>
> that said, you can still try to explain that exchange should not be
> exposed to the internet. you still need a relay (such as
> freebsd/postfix).
Many of our clients run Exchange but solely use Postfix/SA/ClamAV on the wall. There is no direct access to SMTP on the Exchange box for incoming. We use Postfix w/LDAP with SSL for SMTP clients (such as iphones, etc). In most cases we also use IMAP proxy to Exchange (when we can).
Our biggest problems, as mentioned, is the admin side of it. If it's a Windows mentality shop, no *nix, if it's a *nix shop, no Windows. I would still argue the case that all incoming email still be passed through a relay and filtered. Let them have as much Windows stuff as they want. Just plead the case to supplement. Start by allowing all of their email to flow unfiltered, let them lose emails because of the overly paranoid Exchange settings, then, after they tweak the settings, let them get swamped by the under tagging. Make sure to remind them to keep AV updated on their Exchange, then just offer to put the relay back into place.
Re: OT bad news
Posted by mouss <mo...@ml.netoyen.net>.
Thomas Mullins a écrit :
> We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
> coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
> enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
> FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something
> that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer.
>
>
and the problem is?
if they want exchange, give them exchange. don't fight (directly), watch
instead. take pleasure of the situation, get fun as you can. I
personally took fun all day long in windows-only (and believe it or not,
in linux-only) environments.
that said, you can still try to explain that exchange should not be
exposed to the internet. you still need a relay (such as freebsd/postfix).
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Kurt Buff <ku...@gmail.com>.
Heh.
If you want, try to convince them to use ASSP:
http://assp.sourceforge.net/
It's open source too, but it does run on an Exchange box, from what
I've heard, and I've only ever heard good things about it.
I must say, I'm surprised, given the state of the economy, that
they've made this decision. They must think that the school district
is rich...
Kurt
On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 12:42, Thomas Mullins <ts...@wise.k12.va.us> wrote:
> We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
> coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough
> that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes.
> They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a
> bummer.
>
>
>
> Shane
>
>
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Dan Schaefer <da...@performanceadmin.com>.
Thomas Mullins wrote:
>
> We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
> coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
> enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
> FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something
> that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer.
>
>
>
> Shane
>
We are sorry to see you leave. :-(
--
Dan Schaefer
Web Developer/Systems Analyst
Performance Administration Corp.
RE: OT bad news
Posted by "McDonald, Dan" <Da...@austinenergy.com>.
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 16:49 -0400, Thomas Mullins wrote:
> I have no explanation,
> I will pull out our BSD box, and I will let them connect the Exchange
> box straight to the Net.
They probably just want to connect their iPhones to the exchange server
with Active-Sync, and couldn't be bothered with asking you to set up
authentication so that it would work. Dovecot authenticating against
Active-Directory would have been fine.... But PHB's always know best.
But do keep your boxes available, for when their servers melt into a
puddle....
--
Daniel J McDonald, CCIE # 2495, CISSP # 78281, CNX
www.austinenergy.com
Re: OT bad news
Posted by MySQL Student <my...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
> It's a shame that, living in Denver, I will be *just* out of range of
> hearing the screams as the mailspools fill with viruses, malware, and
> massive payloads of Spanish Prinsoner spams.
Awe, c'mon now. Yes, I agree SA is a better solution, but Microsoft
didn't get to be a multi-billion-dollar company solely because of its
marketing. Certainly a competent admin following some SANS guides can
secure an Exchange box to sufficiently avoid it getting hacked, and a
properly-installed version of Symantec will keep most spam away.
It /is/ possible, I suppose :-)
I'd bet that if he kept the FreeBSD box in place and just told his
boss he "upgraded" to Exchange, they'd never even know :-)
Regards,
Alex
Re: OT bad news
Posted by LuKreme <kr...@kreme.com>.
On 5-Oct-2009, at 14:49, Thomas Mullins wrote:
> I will pull out our BSD box, and I will let them connect the
> Exchange box straight to the Net.
It's a shame that, living in Denver, I will be *just* out of range of
hearing the screams as the mailspools fill with viruses, malware, and
massive payloads of Spanish Prinsoner spams.
Really, it should be fun.
Personally, I would NOT keep the old setup standing by unless
specifically told to. I would rebuild it, slowly. Take a few days,
maybe a week, to get it all back online. After all, once the panic
starts, its worth it to teach them a lesson. Also, there's going to be
some advantage to building a nice new install with updated everything,
right?
It's not like you'd be being VINDICTIVE, just cautious, right?
--
Battlemage? That's not a profession. It barely qualifies as a
hobby. 'Battlemage' is about impressive a title as 'Lord of the
Dance'. <PAUSE> I'm adding Lord of the Dance to my titles.
RE: OT bad news
Posted by R-Elists <li...@abbacomm.net>.
> I have no explanation,
>
> Their supposed complaint is, they don't know *nix. But my
> coworker and I manage those boxes, so even if one of us left,
> there would be at least one person to run those boxes.
>
> SA/ClamAV has been working great. Our BSD box sits in front
> of the Exchange, hands off clean mail, what more could you
> ask for. We have two boxes, in case we need to take one down
> for an upgrade.
>
> I will pull out our BSD box, and I will let them connect the
> Exchange box straight to the Net.
>
> Shane
Shane,
you have probably already thought of and done this yet just in case...
document the entire history of these boxes and save the configs of course...
plus.... compile as much the functional statistics as you can over the life
(logs) of those servers re: how much total email and how much malware and
ham and spam and rejected and delivered email qty etc etc...
that way, when the doodie hits the fan and end users are screaming over the
huge increase in spam, you have hard stats that tell the real story and
write the one page paper about it...
whether now, or later, possibly consider distributing it to people that
seriously need to know.
- rh
RE: OT bad news
Posted by Martin Gregorie <ma...@gregorie.org>.
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 16:49 -0400, Thomas Mullins wrote:
> Their supposed complaint is, they don't know *nix.
>
Poor babies. Why doesn't your boss give 'em each a copy of 'Linux in a
Nutshell' (or the BSD equivalent) and a week to read it? If they're
competent that should be enough for them to get by.
> I will pull out our BSD box, and I will let them connect the Exchange
> box straight to the Net.
>
Offer residual/scrap value for the boxes and move them off-site. With
luck you'll be in pocket in a few weeks when they want them back. If
not, you'll still have cheap boxes.
And don't forget to place those bets.
Martin
RE: OT bad news
Posted by Thomas Mullins <ts...@wise.k12.va.us>.
Not my box,
I am on the network side of things....
Shane
________________________________
From: John Hardin [mailto:jhardin@impsec.org]
Sent: Mon 10/5/2009 5:11 PM
To: users@spamassassin.apache.org
Cc: Toni Mueller
Subject: RE: OT bad news
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Thomas Mullins wrote:
> I will pull out our BSD box, and I will let them connect the Exchange
> box straight to the Net.
Second bet: how long it takes after doing that before the box is 0wned.
Of course, if you admin that box too, that bet might be shooting yourself
in the foot... :)
--
John Hardin KA7OHZ http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
jhardin@impsec.org FALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhardin@impsec.org
key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You
cannot help small men by tearing down big men. You cannot
strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot lift the
wage-earner by pulling down the wage-payer. You cannot help the
poor man by destroying the rich. You cannot keep out of trouble by
spending more than your income. You cannot further the brotherhood
of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot establish security on
borrowed money. You cannot build character and courage by taking
away men's initiative and independence. You cannot help men
permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for
themselves. -- William J. H. Boetcker
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Approximately 9192180 firearms legally purchased in the U.S. this year
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Toni Mueller <su...@oeko.net>.
Hi,
On Mon, 05.10.2009 at 14:11:46 -0700, John Hardin <jh...@impsec.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Thomas Mullins wrote:
>> I will pull out our BSD box, and I will let them connect the Exchange
>> box straight to the Net.
> Second bet: how long it takes after doing that before the box is 0wned.
I wouldn't hold my breath for it if these guys are worth their salt,
but I can only underline the importance of Ted's advice to polish your
resume, and start looking, because not only will "they" get all the
credit, but _you_'ll get all the blame, if anything goes wrong.
Kind regards,
--Toni++
RE: OT bad news
Posted by John Hardin <jh...@impsec.org>.
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Thomas Mullins wrote:
> I will pull out our BSD box, and I will let them connect the Exchange
> box straight to the Net.
Second bet: how long it takes after doing that before the box is 0wned.
Of course, if you admin that box too, that bet might be shooting yourself
in the foot... :)
--
John Hardin KA7OHZ http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
jhardin@impsec.org FALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhardin@impsec.org
key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You
cannot help small men by tearing down big men. You cannot
strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot lift the
wage-earner by pulling down the wage-payer. You cannot help the
poor man by destroying the rich. You cannot keep out of trouble by
spending more than your income. You cannot further the brotherhood
of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot establish security on
borrowed money. You cannot build character and courage by taking
away men's initiative and independence. You cannot help men
permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for
themselves. -- William J. H. Boetcker
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Approximately 9192180 firearms legally purchased in the U.S. this year
RE: OT bad news
Posted by Thomas Mullins <ts...@wise.k12.va.us>.
I have no explanation,
Their supposed complaint is, they don't know *nix. But my coworker and I manage those boxes, so even if one of us left, there would be at least one person to run those boxes.
SA/ClamAV has been working great. Our BSD box sits in front of the Exchange, hands off clean mail, what more could you ask for. We have two boxes, in case we need to take one down for an upgrade.
I will pull out our BSD box, and I will let them connect the Exchange box straight to the Net.
Shane
________________________________
From: Toni Mueller [mailto:support-spamassassin@oeko.net]
Sent: Mon 10/5/2009 4:13 PM
To: users@spamassassin.apache.org
Subject: Re: OT bad news
Hi,
On Mon, 05.10.2009 at 15:42:04 -0400, Thomas Mullins <ts...@wise.k12.va.us> wrote:
> We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
> coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
> enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
> FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes.
more OT, but I'd like to learn the details of their complaints, and
their reasoning, and/or why you could not convince them to stay with
Open Source.
> They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange.
> What a bummer.
Indeed.
My condolences,
--Toni++
Re: OT bad news
Posted by Toni Mueller <su...@oeko.net>.
Hi,
On Mon, 05.10.2009 at 15:42:04 -0400, Thomas Mullins <ts...@wise.k12.va.us> wrote:
> We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
> coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
> enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
> FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes.
more OT, but I'd like to learn the details of their complaints, and
their reasoning, and/or why you could not convince them to stay with
Open Source.
> They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange.
> What a bummer.
Indeed.
My condolences,
--Toni++