Please help

[Gerald Bauer <gt...@gmail.com>]

Hi all,

For the past few months I've been enthusiastically evangelizing about
Tapestry 5 and how great it is. We were supposed to use it in an upcoming
project however, today there was a serious objection from some of our team
members about the adoption of Tapestry in our company. These guys have
googled extensively about Tapestry and weren't impressed about what they
saw. They presented evidence that Tapestry has a bad track record on
backwards compatibility. They also mentioned that the fact that Tapestry is
a one man project it is too risky to adopt in our company. Also, they claim
Howard has said there wouldn't be any major release of Tapestry in the
future. This could lead to stagnation of innovation in Tapestry. They also
presented evidence from Howard's blog that he has divided attention. He's
doing Cappuccino, Clojure, Grails, etc. and seems to not have focus.

For all these and many other reasons I can't go into, they have decided we
drop the plan to use Tapestry. They have asked us to take a serious look at
Wicket and JSF. I really don't want to develop with JSF. I'm dissapointed.
Any tips from anyone that I could use to convince our team to still go for
Tapestry?

Thanks,

Gerald

Re: Please help

["Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>]

Em Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:40:45 -0300, Gerald Bauer <gt...@gmail.com>  
escreveu:

> Hi all,

Hi!

> They presented evidence that Tapestry has a bad track record on
> backwards compatibility.

The Tapestry team is committed to not make any more backwards-incompatible  
versions. Tapestry 5's architecture provide us a lot of room to innovate,  
extend and tweak how things are implemented without breaking compatibility.

> They also mentioned that the fact that Tapestry is a one man project it  
> is too risky to adopt in our company.

Tapestry has many committers: http://tapestry.apache.org/committers.html.  
Take a look at the commit logs at  
http://www.nabble.com/Tapestry---Dev-f339.html and you can see that Howard  
is not the only one commiting.

> Also, they claim Howard has said there wouldn't be any major release of  
> Tapestry in the
> future. This could lead to stagnation of innovation in Tapestry.

He sais that no backward-incompatible release will be made, not that there  
will be no major release of Tapestry in the future.

> They also presented evidence from Howard's blog that he has divided  
> attention. He's
> doing Cappuccino, Clojure, Grails, etc. and seems to not have focus.

Howard talked about it recently:  
http://www.nabble.com/Concerned-about-the-future-of-Tapestry-to25567732s302.html.

> For all these and many other reasons I can't go into,

Please post the other reasons.

> Any tips from anyone that I could use to convince our team to still go  
> for Tapestry?

Implement a small proof-of-concept application using Tapestry 5, Wicket  
and JSF then compare them about ease of learning, productivity,  
reusability, AJAX support, time spent deveolping the application, time  
needed to implement a new component, mailing list quality, etc. Show them  
the article Sebastian Hennebrueder wrote about Tapestry as part of a Web  
framework comparison:  
http://www.laliluna.de/tapestry-webframework-evaluation-test.html

-- 
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java consultant, developer, and instructor
http://www.arsmachina.com.br/thiago

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org

Re: Please help

[Daniel Jue <te...@gmail.com>]

I agree, while the trolls on here tend to use a similar technique to
bring up moot points (especially things that were answered in the
previous few days), we should not jump to conclusions about someone
with a genuinely reluctant team.

Here is a tip: Have the developers who opposed the use of Tapestry
actually used Tapestry?  At all?  Even just building from the
archetype sample should give them a good feel as to whether they want
to spend a part of their life with it.  It's hard to quell the fears
of developers who themselves don't bother to dabble in new
technologies.  As others have pointed out in past threads, it's silly
for us (especially Howard) to put blinders on with regards to new
technologies.  It's much more efficient to incorporate / learn from
the ingenuity of others, rather than just rely on ourselves.

It's like saying "I don't want to eat at an Italian restaurant because
their new dishes don't taste great with their old dishes, and I heard
the lead chef was eating at a French restaurant the other day instead
of being locked in his kitchen making new recipes.  So we're gonna go
with Hot Pockets instead."

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's a little early to start dropping the "T" bomb.
> I'd like to thank Thiago for his response ... it's dead on.
>
> Although the upgrade from 5.0 to 5.1 was not quite as seamless as I would
> have liked, for the majority of users it represented a simple switch in
> dependencies, with a number of new features (and speed improvements) for
> free.
>
> That is the pattern for the future ... 5.2 will add new features and should
> be an even easier upgrade than 5.0 to 5.1.
>
> Right now stability (the stable 5.1 release) is a good thing.  No version of
> Tapestry, or any other web framework, will ever be "complete" -- there's
> always more to add, more to refine. There are a few annoyances and gaps in
> 5.1 that will be addressed in 5.2 but the best thing I can do for the
> community is work on documentation.
>
> Right now, I'm a bit busy helping two teams upgrade 4.1 apps to 5.1, and
> doing some additional support besides, not to mention training engagements
> and speaking engagements (NFJS, ApacheCon, Devoxx, with more coming). So
> don't expect me to maintain the level of commits I did leading up to the 5.1
> release!
>
> In fact, I've been purposefully staying away from coding 5.2, because once I
> get working on the code, it will be that much harder to stay disciplined and
> work on the book.
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Angelo Turetta <
> aturetta+apache@bestunion.it <at...@bestunion.it>> wrote:
>
>> On 24/09/2009 16:40, Gerald Bauer wrote:
>>
>>> They presented evidence that Tapestry has a bad track record on
>>> backwards compatibility. They also mentioned that the fact that Tapestry
>>> is
>>> a one man project it is too risky to adopt in our company.
>>>
>>
>> Can you please provide some additional reference about your company, or
>> your project.
>>
>> I don't know, something tells me we have another email address to add to
>> http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/Tapestry5Trolls
>>
>> Angelo.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
>
> Creator of Apache Tapestry
>
> The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn
> how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
>
> (971) 678-5210
> http://howardlewisship.com
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org

Re: Please help

[Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>]

It's a little early to start dropping the "T" bomb.
I'd like to thank Thiago for his response ... it's dead on.

Although the upgrade from 5.0 to 5.1 was not quite as seamless as I would
have liked, for the majority of users it represented a simple switch in
dependencies, with a number of new features (and speed improvements) for
free.

That is the pattern for the future ... 5.2 will add new features and should
be an even easier upgrade than 5.0 to 5.1.

Right now stability (the stable 5.1 release) is a good thing.  No version of
Tapestry, or any other web framework, will ever be "complete" -- there's
always more to add, more to refine. There are a few annoyances and gaps in
5.1 that will be addressed in 5.2 but the best thing I can do for the
community is work on documentation.

Right now, I'm a bit busy helping two teams upgrade 4.1 apps to 5.1, and
doing some additional support besides, not to mention training engagements
and speaking engagements (NFJS, ApacheCon, Devoxx, with more coming). So
don't expect me to maintain the level of commits I did leading up to the 5.1
release!

In fact, I've been purposefully staying away from coding 5.2, because once I
get working on the code, it will be that much harder to stay disciplined and
work on the book.

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Angelo Turetta <
aturetta+apache@bestunion.it <at...@bestunion.it>> wrote:

> On 24/09/2009 16:40, Gerald Bauer wrote:
>
>> They presented evidence that Tapestry has a bad track record on
>> backwards compatibility. They also mentioned that the fact that Tapestry
>> is
>> a one man project it is too risky to adopt in our company.
>>
>
> Can you please provide some additional reference about your company, or
> your project.
>
> I don't know, something tells me we have another email address to add to
> http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/Tapestry5Trolls
>
> Angelo.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Howard M. Lewis Ship

Creator of Apache Tapestry

The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn
how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!

(971) 678-5210
http://howardlewisship.com

Re: Please help

[Angelo Turetta <at...@bestunion.it>]

On 24/09/2009 16:40, Gerald Bauer wrote:
> They presented evidence that Tapestry has a bad track record on
> backwards compatibility. They also mentioned that the fact that Tapestry is
> a one man project it is too risky to adopt in our company.

Can you please provide some additional reference about your company, or 
your project.

I don't know, something tells me we have another email address to add to 
http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/Tapestry5Trolls

Angelo.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org