Re: Concern about the future of Apache.

["Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>]

> 
> reorg-help@apache.org will give you access to instructions. I believe it is 
> something like
> 
> reorg-get.0-10000@apache.org
> 
> (or similar).
> 

Well quite honestly that ain' gonna happen.  I'll subscribe gmane to
this list or something.  If you all are willing, I'll also set up a wiki
for the purpose of drafting proposals and documenting relevant
information.

> > Okay... umm so all projects under Jakarta are moved up...  So what
> > Jakarta lives on as a flame list called general@jakarta?  hummm?
> 
> Essentially. It ends up doing brand management and cross project stuff. Think 
> SF Foundaries done right.
> 

Brand management...   

To quote someone fairly well known...whom I'll keep their identity
private:
"Apache has a great brand...  They just don't know how to use it."

but that is an entirely different discussion.

> > Besides it was discussed.... "flatten"...what does that mean?  I just
> > said it out right.
> 
> poi.apache.org
> avalon.apache.org
> struts.apache.org
> 

Yeah so far as the web address goes... cool...but boring at the same
time.  Hehe... one can still go to poi.sourceforge.net and get
redirected ;-)

Good, lets do it.. . How can I help?  What needs to be done to automate
it?  (its funny how much stuff is done manually on Apache that there are
actually Apache tools to manage ;-) )

> > And so my discussing it is inappropriate?
> 
> It would be good if you read the archive so you didn't make everyone repeat 
> things that have already been said. 
> 

Yeah.. . Sorry.  The email interface thing...  It....me.... we don't
mix.  I'll subscribe this to a decent service or so.

> > > Anyhow, what having tighter scoped top level projects would solve is
> > > the overweight that some projects have.  Smaller projects are easier
> > > to manage.  This is more convenient for the PMC that has to do the
> > > oversight for the project.  For the committers it means that they
> > > have a clearer view of what does and doesn't fit in the project.
> >
> > So say the Turbine committers wanted to make their build system into a
> > general use utility...  Do they have to petition the PMC? 
> 
> In the new (or the really old) model they ARE the PMC. They can do what they 
> like as long as it follows the "Apache way" and does not legally threaten 
> integrity of Apache.
> 

So long as you realize that doesn't actually ensure that... it does move
the onus up a bit. . I think you'll find the foundation members will
suddenly find themselves busier... okay by me if its okay by them.

> They would have to go by the board to get a new top-level project.
> 

You don't think this will be even more slow and difficult?  Remember
from the outside of Apache.... the board is an even more mysterious
black box than from within the committership... 

> > Is this a trial by flamewar like it is on general@jakarta? 
> 
> nope ... errr ... well I presume not ;)
> 

hehe ;-)

> > If not what prevents sourceforginization at the top level?
> 
> Each project has to have one or more Apache "members" who presumably are 
> people who know and believe in the "Apache way". With our new 
> "indoctrination" ... errr I mean incubation project we could ensure that 
> newer projects also adapt to our philosophy prior to being promoted.
>

This is why I keep saying gradual is better than sweeping changes.  See
how the incubator works out...  If it ever spawns a healthy community
that moves up out of it and becomes top level...  Don't base the whole
plan on its success.
 
> > Hummm...  And if the new many PMCs ignore the voting rules....it would
> > presumably go to the board....  Is the board prepared for the additional
> > load that removing a level of buffer would cause?
> 
> They can't do any worse than the current PMCs who just ignore the situation 
> unless it deals with one of the projects they have a stake in. And even when 
> they do have a stake in it some people don't give a hoot if they endanger 
> Apache as their employers would never come after them.
> 

I disagree.  The current system works..  The new system might not... 
That would be worse.  We must minimize risk through proper measured
refactoring, testing, and challenging assumptions...Have courage but do
so lazily.  Oh god... I'm becoming one of those people... (too many
flamewars with Andy Hunt and the XPers and you start sounding like
him/them)

> > On the other hand, I'd hold the precise opposite
> > opinion from a top down perspective (its far less significant than HTTPd
> > of course).
> 
> Not all projects are equal. However breaking up projects into little pieces 
> gives each project an equal exposure and opportunity. Jelly would presumably 
> rise to the top of the heap from what I hear. Other projects that are 
> unmaintained and/or unused would drift downwards.
>

So explain this heap to me...  Thats a new concept...  
 
> Darwin would work out which ones attracted and maintained a community. 

Fine.

> Meta-projects like Avalon and Turbine would be refocused and broken into 
> component pieces. 
> 

I view that as unwise.  Especially if they don't want it. (realizing
you're an Avalon guy and you might...but what if not all of them do eh?
Personally I think Avalon would benefit if the framework were separated
from the rest of the....ummm...lively but disconnected subcommunities
but what do I know)

> > You'll find that when I don't understand something I
> > represent multiple points of view in order to get a clear understanding
> > of all the issues.  I sincerely apologize if that disturbs you.
> 
> I prefer it ;)
> 

:-)

> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Peter Donald
> The big mistake that men make is that when they turn thirteen or fourteen and
> all of a sudden they've reached puberty, they believe that they like women.
> Actually, you're just horny. It doesn't mean you like women any more at
> twenty-one than you did at ten.                --Jules Feiffer (cartoonist) 
> 

I'm sending that one to my wife ;-)

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