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Posted to dev@commons.apache.org by "Michael A. Smith" <ma...@apache.org> on 2002/08/01 05:27:39 UTC
Re: [commons-dev] mail no longer archived
robert burrell donkin wrote:
> hmmm.... the newsletter usually relies on urls to mail-archive mailing
> list threads.
"usually" is a relative term. :)
And actually, the only released newsletter so far (June 2002) used links
to marc.theaimsgroup.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/
> could eyebrowse on nagoya cope with the traffic if we included it's urls
> instead?
I'm probably not the right one to ask about that (I believe Daniel Rall
is), but I would think that using our own archive would be better than
relying on an external archive.
Daniel, since I believe you're the eyebrowse maintainer, can you answer
this?
thanks,
michael
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Re: [commons-dev] mail no longer archived
Posted by "Michael A. Smith" <ma...@apache.org>.
On 8 Aug 2002, Daniel Rall wrote:
> "Michael A. Smith" <ma...@apache.org> writes:
> > Daniel Rall wrote:
> > > Trolling commons-dev for relevant messages is like trying to find a
> > > needle in a haystack.
> >
> > That's why I explicitly CC'd you on the original mail... I was hoping
> > you have your mail filters setup where that puts it somewhere
> > else. Works for me. :)
>
> I guess they need a few adjustments.
:)
I've got all mine sorting based on the "Delivered-To" header (matching
"mailing list commons-dev@jakarta.apache.org") or the "Mailing-List"
header (containing "commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org"). I used
"Mailing-List" when I was using outlook, and I started with
"Delivered-To" when I started using mozilla. Probably doesn't matter
which you use...
Typically, when I receive mail that's CC'd to me personally and the
mailing list, I get two copies. One matches the the header (the one
sent to the list which has the footer added), the other stays in my
inbox (does not have the mailing list footer). That seems to be the
only way (that I've found) to properly sort mail that's cross-posted to
two jakarta lists I'm on, and also work for mail that's personally CC'd
to me...
I can export my rules from mozilla if you'd like them... although it
looks like you're using Emacs for mail, so they may not help you much...
regards,
michael
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Re: [commons-dev] mail no longer archived
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>.
"Michael A. Smith" <ma...@apache.org> writes:
> Daniel Rall wrote:
> > Trolling commons-dev for relevant messages is like trying to find a
> > needle in a haystack.
>
> That's why I explicitly CC'd you on the original mail... I was hoping
> you have your mail filters setup where that puts it somewhere
> else. Works for me. :)
I guess they need a few adjustments.
--
Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>
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Re: [commons-dev] mail no longer archived
Posted by "Michael A. Smith" <ma...@apache.org>.
Daniel Rall wrote:
> Trolling commons-dev for relevant messages is like trying to find a
> needle in a haystack.
That's why I explicitly CC'd you on the original mail... I was hoping
you have your mail filters setup where that puts it somewhere else.
Works for me. :)
regards,
michael
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Re: [commons-dev] mail no longer archived
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>.
"Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org> writes:
> On 6 Aug 2002, Daniel Rall wrote:
>
> > Date: 06 Aug 2002 15:08:50 -0700
> > From: Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>
> > Reply-To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>,
> > Michael A. Smith <ma...@apache.org>
> > Cc: pier@betaversion.org
> > Subject: Re: [commons-dev] mail no longer archived
> >
> > Trolling commons-dev for relevant messages is like trying to find a
> > needle in a haystack.
> >
> > "Michael A. Smith" <ma...@apache.org> writes:
> >
> > > robert burrell donkin wrote:
> > > > could eyebrowse on nagoya cope with the traffic if we included it's
> > > > urls instead?
> > >
> > > I'm probably not the right one to ask about that (I believe Daniel
> > > Rall is), but I would think that using our own archive would be
> > > better than relying on an external archive.
> >
> > I agree. Eyebrowse still being enhanced (currently mostly by Andreas
> > Guenther). Cross list threading improvements and misc. buglet fixes
> > are in CVS, and ready to be pushed live.
> >
> > > Daniel, since I believe you're the eyebrowse maintainer, can you
> > > answer this?
> >
> > Using tigris.org and various other deployments as a metric, I say it
> > will to scale. However, I've noticed that the deployment on
> > archives.apache.org (nagoya) runs slowly in comparison. I've wondered
> > if the fact that it is behind mod_proxy has anything to do with this
> > (but don't have any hard data on this subject). When whatever is
> > bottlenecking archives.apache.org is be found (and subsequently
> > fixed), promoting it as the main list archive browser makes a lot of
> > sense. Pier, do you have any clues here?
>
> The only slowness I've ever really noticed on nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/
> is building the initial page -- it looks like it's doing a complex
> database query for the message counts or something. After that, it seems
> pretty responsive.
The initial page you speak of, ViewLists, is in fact doing a join
which can involve a massive number of rows. The SourceCast
instantiations don't use this screen, as lists are associated with
individual projects, so only a small set of lists need their
information retrieved at a time (rather than dumping the info for
every list at once).
Here's the Java/SQL for the query from EyebroweDB:
private final Query List_getAll = new Query(
"SELECT eb_List.*, COUNT(eb_Message.listId) as count "
+ " FROM eb_List LEFT JOIN eb_Message on eb_Message.listId=eb_List.listId "
+ " AND eb_Message.isDeleted = 0 "
+ " WHERE "
+ IGNORE_REMOVED_MESSAGES
+ " GROUP BY eb_List.listId "
+ " ORDER BY eb_List.listName ");
The eb_Message table on nagoya is fairly large:
mysql> select count(*) from eb_Message;
+----------+
| count(*) |
+----------+
| 429832 |
+----------+
1 row in set (0.00 sec)
The join of this data set with another table is expensive:
mysql> SELECT eb_List.*, COUNT(eb_Message.listId) as count
-> FROM eb_List LEFT JOIN eb_Message ON
-> eb_Message.listId=eb_List.listId
-> AND eb_Message.isDeleted = 0
-> WHERE
-> (eb_Message.msgNo is NULL OR eb_Message.msgNo != -1
-> AND eb_Message.isDeleted = 0)
-> GROUP BY eb_List.listId
-> ORDER BY eb_List.listName;
...
104 rows in set (26.91 sec)
This query alone is taking 27 seconds! Nice catch, Craig. MySQL's
EXPLAIN command <http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/EXPLAIN.html> shows us
what's going on:
mysql> EXPLAIN ...;
+------------+------+---------------+---------+---------+----------------+------+---------------------------------+
| table | type | possible_keys | key | key_len | ref | rows | Extra |
+------------+------+---------------+---------+---------+----------------+------+---------------------------------+
| eb_List | ALL | NULL | NULL | NULL | NULL | 104 | Using temporary; Using filesort |
| eb_Message | ref | msgDate,msgNo | msgDate | 4 | eb_List.listId | 4298 | where used |
+------------+------+---------------+---------+---------+----------------+------+---------------------------------+
2 rows in set (0.21 sec)
The ALL type for eb_List means a full table scan is occurring.
Generally, that's very, very bad, but in this case it's exactly what
we asked for (and the data set is small, at only 104 rows). Other
than trying multiple queries to avoid the temporary table (the
filesort can't really be avoided unless we want to do the list name
alphetization in Java, and doesn't take an appreciable amount of time
anyhow), a way to optimize the query isn't immediately apparent to me.
Finding a better way to display the mailing list data -- like
tigris.org does, for instance -- seems much more likely to yield a
large performance payoff.
--
Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>
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Re: [commons-dev] mail no longer archived
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On 6 Aug 2002, Daniel Rall wrote:
> Date: 06 Aug 2002 15:08:50 -0700
> From: Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>
> Reply-To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>,
> Michael A. Smith <ma...@apache.org>
> Cc: pier@betaversion.org
> Subject: Re: [commons-dev] mail no longer archived
>
> Trolling commons-dev for relevant messages is like trying to find a
> needle in a haystack.
>
> "Michael A. Smith" <ma...@apache.org> writes:
>
> > robert burrell donkin wrote:
> > > could eyebrowse on nagoya cope with the traffic if we included it's
> > > urls instead?
> >
> > I'm probably not the right one to ask about that (I believe Daniel
> > Rall is), but I would think that using our own archive would be
> > better than relying on an external archive.
>
> I agree. Eyebrowse still being enhanced (currently mostly by Andreas
> Guenther). Cross list threading improvements and misc. buglet fixes
> are in CVS, and ready to be pushed live.
>
> > Daniel, since I believe you're the eyebrowse maintainer, can you
> > answer this?
>
> Using tigris.org and various other deployments as a metric, I say it
> will to scale. However, I've noticed that the deployment on
> archives.apache.org (nagoya) runs slowly in comparison. I've wondered
> if the fact that it is behind mod_proxy has anything to do with this
> (but don't have any hard data on this subject). When whatever is
> bottlenecking archives.apache.org is be found (and subsequently
> fixed), promoting it as the main list archive browser makes a lot of
> sense. Pier, do you have any clues here?
The only slowness I've ever really noticed on nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/
is building the initial page -- it looks like it's doing a complex
database query for the message counts or something. After that, it seems
pretty responsive.
> --
>
> Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>
Craig
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Re: [commons-dev] mail no longer archived
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>.
Trolling commons-dev for relevant messages is like trying to find a
needle in a haystack.
"Michael A. Smith" <ma...@apache.org> writes:
> robert burrell donkin wrote:
> > could eyebrowse on nagoya cope with the traffic if we included it's
> > urls instead?
>
> I'm probably not the right one to ask about that (I believe Daniel
> Rall is), but I would think that using our own archive would be
> better than relying on an external archive.
I agree. Eyebrowse still being enhanced (currently mostly by Andreas
Guenther). Cross list threading improvements and misc. buglet fixes
are in CVS, and ready to be pushed live.
> Daniel, since I believe you're the eyebrowse maintainer, can you
> answer this?
Using tigris.org and various other deployments as a metric, I say it
will to scale. However, I've noticed that the deployment on
archives.apache.org (nagoya) runs slowly in comparison. I've wondered
if the fact that it is behind mod_proxy has anything to do with this
(but don't have any hard data on this subject). When whatever is
bottlenecking archives.apache.org is be found (and subsequently
fixed), promoting it as the main list archive browser makes a lot of
sense. Pier, do you have any clues here?
--
Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>
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Re: [VOTE] Create new commons-httpclient-dev mailing list
Posted by Jeff Dever <js...@sympatico.ca>.
Speaking as the httpclient release manager, there is no plans to move httpclient
to become a top level project at this time. After a 2.0 release, a promotion
may be considered, but for now it is somthing I would vote against.
There are two reasons for this in my mind:
1) HttpClient is a library, not an application, and fits well under the commons
mantra. It is "common" and thus may never make sense to be top level (needs
debate, but not now).
2) The last release of HttpClient was alpha1 10 months ago: we need to show more
consistancy than that to qualify as top level IMO and to make a quality
statement which currently cannot be made or we would be at 2.0 already.
Somone else brought up the issue of voting. Lets recap the important points of
all this list seperation:
1) Insulate the commons-dev list from the high volume of httpclient traffic
2) Insulate the new httpclient-dev list from commons-dev (follows from 1)
3) Dont exclude anyone from voting on important issues in any commons project
The big concern here is that we not want to exclude commons committers from
votes on httpclient issues. A vote is a good way to say, "hey, somthing
important is happening" and we want input from everyone, not just httpclient
contributors. Some might say that if you really cared about httpclient enough
to vote, that you would join the list anyway so as to be informed.
Nor do httpclient contributors want to miss out on votes for other commons
projects. Therefore I would have to continue to subscribe to the commons-dev
list and gain no real benefit from having a seperate list (other than historical
organization).
I really don't know what the answer here is. There was a suggestion to have a
dedicated commons-vote list. Thats not a bad idea for solving this
httpclient/commons list split. It also would make it easier to tally up the
votes afterwards (which is not easy to do right now in the mirad of different
topics discussed here) and would give a nice vote history in the list archives.
The bottom line is to have reduced list traffic for everyone (and the "just use
a mail filter" does not hold for people that have to pay for bandwitdh) based on
seperation of concerns. Frankly I would like to see more of the subprojects on
seperate lists so that everyone can pick and choose lists based on concerns.
A vote list makes even more sense in this light.
"Michael A. Smith" wrote:
> As before, I'm -0.
>
> If httpclient has enough traffic to warrant its own list, maybe the http
> client developers should consider making a proposal to move to a
> top-level jakarta subproject (outside of jakarta commons). If the
> commits of httpclient don't want to move outside commons, or if
> general@jakarta doesn't accept httpclient as a top-level subproject,
> then I am +1 to creating a httpclient-dev mailing list.
>
> regards,
> michael
>
> robert burrell donkin wrote:
> > here's my +1
> >
> > - robert
> >
> > PROPOSAL
> > ========
> >
> > create a new mailing list for httpclient development discussions.
> >
> > AIM
> > ===
> >
> > reduce traffic on commons-dev.
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: [VOTE] Create new commons-httpclient-dev mailing list
Posted by "Michael A. Smith" <ma...@apache.org>.
As before, I'm -0.
If httpclient has enough traffic to warrant its own list, maybe the http
client developers should consider making a proposal to move to a
top-level jakarta subproject (outside of jakarta commons). If the
commits of httpclient don't want to move outside commons, or if
general@jakarta doesn't accept httpclient as a top-level subproject,
then I am +1 to creating a httpclient-dev mailing list.
regards,
michael
robert burrell donkin wrote:
> here's my +1
>
> - robert
>
> PROPOSAL
> ========
>
> create a new mailing list for httpclient development discussions.
>
> AIM
> ===
>
> reduce traffic on commons-dev.
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: [VOTE] Create new commons-httpclient-dev mailing list
Posted by Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com>.
+1
[HttpClient] has a consistently large volume
[HttpClient] is less 'common' than some others. By this I mean that you are
either interested or not. Its a fairly black and white distinction.
Stephen
----- Original Message -----
From: "robert burrell donkin" <ro...@mac.com>
To: "Jakarta Commons Developers List" <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:12 PM
Subject: [VOTE] Create new commons-httpclient-dev mailing list
> here's my +1
>
> - robert
>
> PROPOSAL
> ========
>
> create a new mailing list for httpclient development discussions.
>
> AIM
> ===
>
> reduce traffic on commons-dev.
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
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Re: [VOTE] Create new commons-httpclient-dev mailing list
Posted by Ortwin Glück <or...@nose.ch>.
+1
Currently four (4) message filters are requirered (Mozilla's MailNews)
to filter out the commons-dev noise whereas only two filters are
requirered to filter 98% of the daily spam. So I am clearly PRO.
Odi
ps: working on this JSSE isolation at the moment
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Re: [VOTE] Create new commons-httpclient-dev mailing list
Posted by Juozas Baliuka <ba...@centras.lt>.
+1
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Dever" <js...@sympatico.ca>
To: "Jakarta Commons Developers List" <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [VOTE] Create new commons-httpclient-dev mailing list
> +1 (except the name would preferably be "httpclient-dev")
>
> I had thought that this had already been settled. As the release manager
for
> HttpClient, I'll make a formal request for this on the general list.
>
>
> Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> > +1
> >
> > On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 costinm@covalent.net wrote:
> >
> > > +1
> > >
> > > Costin
> > >
> > > On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, robert burrell donkin wrote:
> > >
> > > > here's my +1
> > > >
> > > > - robert
> > > >
> > > > PROPOSAL
> > > > ========
> > > >
> > > > create a new mailing list for httpclient development discussions.
> > > >
> > > > AIM
> > > > ===
> > > >
> > > > reduce traffic on commons-dev.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
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Re: [VOTE] Create new commons-httpclient-dev mailing list
Posted by Jeff Dever <js...@sympatico.ca>.
+1 (except the name would preferably be "httpclient-dev")
I had thought that this had already been settled. As the release manager for
HttpClient, I'll make a formal request for this on the general list.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> +1
>
> On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 costinm@covalent.net wrote:
>
> > +1
> >
> > Costin
> >
> > On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, robert burrell donkin wrote:
> >
> > > here's my +1
> > >
> > > - robert
> > >
> > > PROPOSAL
> > > ========
> > >
> > > create a new mailing list for httpclient development discussions.
> > >
> > > AIM
> > > ===
> > >
> > > reduce traffic on commons-dev.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: [VOTE] Create new commons-httpclient-dev mailing list
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
+1
On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 costinm@covalent.net wrote:
> +1
>
> Costin
>
> On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, robert burrell donkin wrote:
>
> > here's my +1
> >
> > - robert
> >
> > PROPOSAL
> > ========
> >
> > create a new mailing list for httpclient development discussions.
> >
> > AIM
> > ===
> >
> > reduce traffic on commons-dev.
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
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Re: [VOTE] Create new commons-httpclient-dev mailing list
Posted by co...@covalent.net.
+1
Costin
On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, robert burrell donkin wrote:
> here's my +1
>
> - robert
>
> PROPOSAL
> ========
>
> create a new mailing list for httpclient development discussions.
>
> AIM
> ===
>
> reduce traffic on commons-dev.
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
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[VOTE] Create new commons-httpclient-dev mailing list
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@mac.com>.
here's my +1
- robert
PROPOSAL
========
create a new mailing list for httpclient development discussions.
AIM
===
reduce traffic on commons-dev.
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Re: [commons-dev] mail no longer archived
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@mac.com>.
On Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 04:27 AM, Michael A. Smith wrote:
> robert burrell donkin wrote:
>> hmmm.... the newsletter usually relies on urls to mail-archive mailing
>> list threads.
>
> "usually" is a relative term. :)
>
> And actually, the only released newsletter so far (June 2002) used links
> to marc.theaimsgroup.com
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/
oops 8-)
>> could eyebrowse on nagoya cope with the traffic if we included it's urls
>> instead?
>
> I'm probably not the right one to ask about that (I believe Daniel Rall
> is), but I would think that using our own archive would be better than
> relying on an external archive.
>
> Daniel, since I believe you're the eyebrowse maintainer, can you answer
> this?
eyebrowser would be cool... but at there's no reason why we couldn't use
the marc.theaimsgroup.com archives.
- robert
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