ecommerce UI evaluation

[Eric Crawford <ph...@gmail.com>]

We recently hired someone to design our "look and feel" for our ofbiz
based ecommerce site.  They were hired to design the ecommerce site
using XHTML and CSS for layout, complying with web standards and
integrate the changes into the OOTB ofbiz ecommerce code. I am hoping
that someone can tell me if they feel that these are fair arguments
for increasing the originally quoted price, as the original price was
quoted with no knowledge of ofbiz or the technologies used on their
part. Following are some comments that they made about the
design/coding of the out of the box ofbiz ecommerce user interface:

* coding is a lot messier than the documents claim
* every component has a variable from headline image to tagline
comments and some variables code for a line and some code for 30 lines
* chaotic coding mess and the time and effort involved trying to clean
up OFBiz in an XHTML and Variable standpoint

Unfortunately, my experience is in the development of back-end systems
and therefore, I am not very familiar with programming for web-based
front ends so I feel like I could use the opinions of the community to
help me determine whether or not these are fair statements.

Any feedback is appreciated,
Eric

Re: ecommerce UI evaluation

["David E. Jones" <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com>]

Without details on what was involved in the engagement it is  
impossible to say. I've seen OFBiz ecommerce customizations range  
from $1,000 to well over $1,000,000, all perfectly valid but just  
varying in scope.

However, I don't think this really has anything to do with OFBiz per- 
se, it's just a contracting issue and there is nothing in the open  
source project or community that can say who is right and who is wrong.

If I was to comment on this as an outsider I'd say both sides need to  
be more careful and do a bit more analysis and/or requirements  
definition before committing to a price. I'm obviously biased on  
this, but you might have a more reliable/consistent experience  
working with a more experienced provider.

On a side note, this isn't really under the topic of development of  
OFBiz, so really shouldn't be on the dev list.

Best of luck! This sort of thing is never is easy and there is no  
easy solution. If if was easy we'd all be paying $500 for an off-the- 
shelf solution and no one would even know what a consultant is.

-David



On Feb 26, 2007, at 12:36 PM, Eric Crawford wrote:

> Thanks for the comments David. I am mostly trying to determine if
> these guys are just blaming their lack of productivity on the current
> design assuming that I will take their word for it, or if they are
> making accurate statements. I am getting the impression that they are
> in over their heads and they want to make excuses, using the current
> code as a reason for their case. They quoted us $2500 originally to
> design and implement the changes into the ofbiz ecommerce app. This
> price seemed lower than I expected originally, but they are now
> doubling the price after digging into the code. I am all for paying
> someone a fair price for their time and effort, but I think doubling
> the price right around the time that the project should be completed
> is not good business.
>
> On 2/26/07, David E. Jones <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Feb 26, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Eric Crawford wrote:
>>
>> > We recently hired someone to design our "look and feel" for our  
>> ofbiz
>> > based ecommerce site.  They were hired to design the ecommerce site
>> > using XHTML and CSS for layout, complying with web standards and
>> > integrate the changes into the OOTB ofbiz ecommerce code. I am  
>> hoping
>> > that someone can tell me if they feel that these are fair arguments
>> > for increasing the originally quoted price, as the original  
>> price was
>> > quoted with no knowledge of ofbiz or the technologies used on their
>> > part. Following are some comments that they made about the
>> > design/coding of the out of the box ofbiz ecommerce user interface:
>> >
>> > * coding is a lot messier than the documents claim
>> > * every component has a variable from headline image to tagline
>> > comments and some variables code for a line and some code for 30  
>> lines
>> > * chaotic coding mess and the time and effort involved trying to  
>> clean
>> > up OFBiz in an XHTML and Variable standpoint
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, my experience is in the development of back-end  
>> systems
>> > and therefore, I am not very familiar with programming for web- 
>> based
>> > front ends so I feel like I could use the opinions of the  
>> community to
>> > help me determine whether or not these are fair statements.
>> >
>> > Any feedback is appreciated,
>> > Eric
>>
>> I'm not totally sure I understand your questions, so I'll restate
>> them and then give my answer.
>>
>> 1. Are the standard OFBiz ecommerce templates complicated because of
>> the feature richness of the pachage? Yes.
>>
>> 2. Is it a good idea to quote a price for work that you don't
>> understand well and have never done before? No.
>>
>> 3. Is coding public facing applications different than internal
>> applications, ie do the patterns and requirements differ? Yes.
>>
>> 4. Do you have to use all of the variables and every OOTB template in
>> your final design? No, and generally people do not.
>>
>> -David
>>
>>
>>

Re: ecommerce UI evaluation

[Jonathon -- Improov <jo...@improov.com>]

Eric,

Thanks for you inputs and observations. I'm letting my boss see this. Ah... more vindication.

OFBiz is a very strong suite of integrated "best of breed" tools.

Jonathon

Eric Crawford wrote:
> Thanks for your input Jonathan. That is exactly what I was looking for
> and the only reason I posted this to the dev mailing list. I just
> wanted to get the opinion of other developers about how well the
> ecommerce UI was designed/coded. These guys tried to talk us out of
> using ofbiz from the beginning, steering us in the direction of other
> solutions that don't even come close to offering the functionality of
> ofbiz. Now they are basically telling me that it is so poorly coded
> that they will need to increase the price to double the original
> quoted price. I am very happy with ofbiz and all it has to offer and
> wouldn't even begin to think about using anything else. I think the
> problem is lack of experience on their part, so the job is taking them
> much longer than they expected. Thanks again.
> 
> On 2/26/07, Jonathon -- Improov <jo...@improov.com> wrote:
>> Eric,
>>
>> Since they're talking about the UI, then they are somewhat correct. 
>> Some of the UI use Freemarker,
>> some use form widgets. Also, there's a great deal of refactoring going 
>> on at the moment for UI (by
>> Adrian Crumm). One of the problems with CSS styles usage, just to name 
>> one UI problem, is that
>> styles don't describe the content but the UI attributes instead.
>>
>> In general, the UI isn't as cleanly coded as it should be.
>>
>> But then again, large variety of coding constructs in the UI are to be 
>> expected, and are less
>> crippling than similar mess in the backend modules. Developers 
>> generally place less emphasis on UI
>> than backend, since UIs are really much easier to correct in comparison.
>>
>> If they're using Freemarker to customize your UIs, then they shouldn't 
>> have any problems at all.
>> If they're using OFBiz-specific form widgets, they should buy the 
>> comprehensive docs at
>> http://www.undersunconsulting.com/ecommerce/control/main , unless they 
>> can take apart the OFBiz
>> framework themselves (it's open source).
>>
>> I don't know about $2500 pricetag for doing up the UI alone. At double 
>> that price, you could have
>> a whole new OFBiz tailored for your organization (without data 
>> migration from legacy systems).
>>
>> Look for competent and agile "hack and slash" developers, not the "we 
>> gotta follow protocols
>> before things get done" types.
>>
>>  > but I think doubling the price right around the time that the 
>> project should
>>  > be completed is not good business.
>>
>> Oh. Your developers should've fully assessed OFBiz in the early 
>> stages. This tells me one of many
>> possible things: your contractor may not be very IT-savvy, and 
>> couldn't assess OFBiz
>> himself/herself nor afford a capital outlay to hire a team to do the 
>> assessment before he/she took
>> the project from you.
>>
>>  > using XHTML and CSS for layout
>>
>> I didn't see this. Well, I must say your developers do have a point. 
>> Why do you need it all in
>> strict XHTML? Why not get things working first, then have your 
>> in-house team gradually correct the
>> UI to be XHTML-compliant over time?
>>
>> Lastly, we need to understand that OFBiz is open source. We didn't pay 
>> anything to use it (unless
>> you bought the docs!), so we really couldn't fault OFBiz for being 
>> "oh-so-imperfect". I know, the
>> initial knee-jerk reaction is to ask: "Why'd they represent it as 
>> thus?". Call it bad or
>> inaccurate or back-firing marketing if you want, but OFBiz is a solid 
>> platform to work with, and
>> it's free.
>>
>> Jonathon
>>
>> Eric Crawford wrote:
>> > Thanks for the comments David. I am mostly trying to determine if
>> > these guys are just blaming their lack of productivity on the current
>> > design assuming that I will take their word for it, or if they are
>> > making accurate statements. I am getting the impression that they are
>> > in over their heads and they want to make excuses, using the current
>> > code as a reason for their case. They quoted us $2500 originally to
>> > design and implement the changes into the ofbiz ecommerce app. This
>> > price seemed lower than I expected originally, but they are now
>> > doubling the price after digging into the code. I am all for paying
>> > someone a fair price for their time and effort, but I think doubling
>> > the price right around the time that the project should be completed
>> > is not good business.
>> >
>> > On 2/26/07, David E. Jones <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Feb 26, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Eric Crawford wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > We recently hired someone to design our "look and feel" for our 
>> ofbiz
>> >> > based ecommerce site.  They were hired to design the ecommerce site
>> >> > using XHTML and CSS for layout, complying with web standards and
>> >> > integrate the changes into the OOTB ofbiz ecommerce code. I am 
>> hoping
>> >> > that someone can tell me if they feel that these are fair arguments
>> >> > for increasing the originally quoted price, as the original price 
>> was
>> >> > quoted with no knowledge of ofbiz or the technologies used on their
>> >> > part. Following are some comments that they made about the
>> >> > design/coding of the out of the box ofbiz ecommerce user interface:
>> >> >
>> >> > * coding is a lot messier than the documents claim
>> >> > * every component has a variable from headline image to tagline
>> >> > comments and some variables code for a line and some code for 30 
>> lines
>> >> > * chaotic coding mess and the time and effort involved trying to 
>> clean
>> >> > up OFBiz in an XHTML and Variable standpoint
>> >> >
>> >> > Unfortunately, my experience is in the development of back-end 
>> systems
>> >> > and therefore, I am not very familiar with programming for web-based
>> >> > front ends so I feel like I could use the opinions of the 
>> community to
>> >> > help me determine whether or not these are fair statements.
>> >> >
>> >> > Any feedback is appreciated,
>> >> > Eric
>> >>
>> >> I'm not totally sure I understand your questions, so I'll restate
>> >> them and then give my answer.
>> >>
>> >> 1. Are the standard OFBiz ecommerce templates complicated because of
>> >> the feature richness of the pachage? Yes.
>> >>
>> >> 2. Is it a good idea to quote a price for work that you don't
>> >> understand well and have never done before? No.
>> >>
>> >> 3. Is coding public facing applications different than internal
>> >> applications, ie do the patterns and requirements differ? Yes.
>> >>
>> >> 4. Do you have to use all of the variables and every OOTB template in
>> >> your final design? No, and generally people do not.
>> >>
>> >> -David
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
> 
> 

Re: ecommerce UI evaluation

[Eric Crawford <ph...@gmail.com>]

Thanks for your input Jonathan. That is exactly what I was looking for
and the only reason I posted this to the dev mailing list. I just
wanted to get the opinion of other developers about how well the
ecommerce UI was designed/coded. These guys tried to talk us out of
using ofbiz from the beginning, steering us in the direction of other
solutions that don't even come close to offering the functionality of
ofbiz. Now they are basically telling me that it is so poorly coded
that they will need to increase the price to double the original
quoted price. I am very happy with ofbiz and all it has to offer and
wouldn't even begin to think about using anything else. I think the
problem is lack of experience on their part, so the job is taking them
much longer than they expected. Thanks again.

On 2/26/07, Jonathon -- Improov <jo...@improov.com> wrote:
> Eric,
>
> Since they're talking about the UI, then they are somewhat correct. Some of the UI use Freemarker,
> some use form widgets. Also, there's a great deal of refactoring going on at the moment for UI (by
> Adrian Crumm). One of the problems with CSS styles usage, just to name one UI problem, is that
> styles don't describe the content but the UI attributes instead.
>
> In general, the UI isn't as cleanly coded as it should be.
>
> But then again, large variety of coding constructs in the UI are to be expected, and are less
> crippling than similar mess in the backend modules. Developers generally place less emphasis on UI
> than backend, since UIs are really much easier to correct in comparison.
>
> If they're using Freemarker to customize your UIs, then they shouldn't have any problems at all.
> If they're using OFBiz-specific form widgets, they should buy the comprehensive docs at
> http://www.undersunconsulting.com/ecommerce/control/main , unless they can take apart the OFBiz
> framework themselves (it's open source).
>
> I don't know about $2500 pricetag for doing up the UI alone. At double that price, you could have
> a whole new OFBiz tailored for your organization (without data migration from legacy systems).
>
> Look for competent and agile "hack and slash" developers, not the "we gotta follow protocols
> before things get done" types.
>
>  > but I think doubling the price right around the time that the project should
>  > be completed is not good business.
>
> Oh. Your developers should've fully assessed OFBiz in the early stages. This tells me one of many
> possible things: your contractor may not be very IT-savvy, and couldn't assess OFBiz
> himself/herself nor afford a capital outlay to hire a team to do the assessment before he/she took
> the project from you.
>
>  > using XHTML and CSS for layout
>
> I didn't see this. Well, I must say your developers do have a point. Why do you need it all in
> strict XHTML? Why not get things working first, then have your in-house team gradually correct the
> UI to be XHTML-compliant over time?
>
> Lastly, we need to understand that OFBiz is open source. We didn't pay anything to use it (unless
> you bought the docs!), so we really couldn't fault OFBiz for being "oh-so-imperfect". I know, the
> initial knee-jerk reaction is to ask: "Why'd they represent it as thus?". Call it bad or
> inaccurate or back-firing marketing if you want, but OFBiz is a solid platform to work with, and
> it's free.
>
> Jonathon
>
> Eric Crawford wrote:
> > Thanks for the comments David. I am mostly trying to determine if
> > these guys are just blaming their lack of productivity on the current
> > design assuming that I will take their word for it, or if they are
> > making accurate statements. I am getting the impression that they are
> > in over their heads and they want to make excuses, using the current
> > code as a reason for their case. They quoted us $2500 originally to
> > design and implement the changes into the ofbiz ecommerce app. This
> > price seemed lower than I expected originally, but they are now
> > doubling the price after digging into the code. I am all for paying
> > someone a fair price for their time and effort, but I think doubling
> > the price right around the time that the project should be completed
> > is not good business.
> >
> > On 2/26/07, David E. Jones <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Feb 26, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Eric Crawford wrote:
> >>
> >> > We recently hired someone to design our "look and feel" for our ofbiz
> >> > based ecommerce site.  They were hired to design the ecommerce site
> >> > using XHTML and CSS for layout, complying with web standards and
> >> > integrate the changes into the OOTB ofbiz ecommerce code. I am hoping
> >> > that someone can tell me if they feel that these are fair arguments
> >> > for increasing the originally quoted price, as the original price was
> >> > quoted with no knowledge of ofbiz or the technologies used on their
> >> > part. Following are some comments that they made about the
> >> > design/coding of the out of the box ofbiz ecommerce user interface:
> >> >
> >> > * coding is a lot messier than the documents claim
> >> > * every component has a variable from headline image to tagline
> >> > comments and some variables code for a line and some code for 30 lines
> >> > * chaotic coding mess and the time and effort involved trying to clean
> >> > up OFBiz in an XHTML and Variable standpoint
> >> >
> >> > Unfortunately, my experience is in the development of back-end systems
> >> > and therefore, I am not very familiar with programming for web-based
> >> > front ends so I feel like I could use the opinions of the community to
> >> > help me determine whether or not these are fair statements.
> >> >
> >> > Any feedback is appreciated,
> >> > Eric
> >>
> >> I'm not totally sure I understand your questions, so I'll restate
> >> them and then give my answer.
> >>
> >> 1. Are the standard OFBiz ecommerce templates complicated because of
> >> the feature richness of the pachage? Yes.
> >>
> >> 2. Is it a good idea to quote a price for work that you don't
> >> understand well and have never done before? No.
> >>
> >> 3. Is coding public facing applications different than internal
> >> applications, ie do the patterns and requirements differ? Yes.
> >>
> >> 4. Do you have to use all of the variables and every OOTB template in
> >> your final design? No, and generally people do not.
> >>
> >> -David
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

Re: ecommerce UI evaluation

[Adrian Crum <ad...@hlmksw.com>]

David E. Jones wrote:
> The ecommerce UI is 100% FreeMarker, the form widget is not used  
> because the customer facing stuff is meant to be customized in a very  
> visual way.

That's a relief for me. I wasn't aware of that. That would address my concerns 
in Jira OFBIZ-671.

Re: ecommerce UI evaluation

[Eric Crawford <ph...@gmail.com>]

Chris, to the best of my knowledge, no.  I did suggest it as a resource though.
On 2/26/07, Chris Howe <cj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Eric,
> Not to prolong this discussion on the dev list, but by any chance did
> the folks you hired make use of the user's mailing list to overcome
> their obstacles?
>
> ,Chris
>
>
> --- Eric Crawford <ph...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > David,
> > Those comments were actually made by the folks that we hired. I am
> > not
> > sure why they feel that way, but I am certainly going to ask them. I
> > provided them with all the documentation I could get my hands on. I
> > don't see why they think it is so difficult. I am tempted at this
> > point to just have them provide me with the XHTML and CSS that they
> > created and tell them that I will modify the FTL templates. I think
> > it
> > might be a little too much like "real code" for them to understand
> > and
> > they should probably stick to what they are good at.
> >
> > On 2/26/07, David E. Jones <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey Jonathon, it's great to get your point of view on this.
> > >
> > > That said, I'm sure you know mine is coming... ;) Don't worry I'm
> > not
> > > going to attack what you said, but rather hopefully just explain
> > some
> > > anomalies.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Feb 26, 2007, at 5:05 PM, Jonathon -- Improov wrote:
> > >
> > > > Since they're talking about the UI, then they are somewhat
> > correct.
> > > > Some of the UI use Freemarker, some use form widgets. Also,
> > there's
> > > > a great deal of refactoring going on at the moment for UI (by
> > > > Adrian Crumm). One of the problems with CSS styles usage, just to
> > > > name one UI problem, is that styles don't describe the content
> > but
> > > > the UI attributes instead.
> > >
> > > The ecommerce UI is 100% FreeMarker, the form widget is not used
> > > because the customer facing stuff is meant to be customized in a
> > very
> > > visual way.
> > >
> > > > In general, the UI isn't as cleanly coded as it should be.
> > >
> > > This is certainly true, and probably always will be. However, for
> > > many it doesn't matter so much...
> > >
> > > > But then again, large variety of coding constructs in the UI are
> > to
> > > > be expected, and are less crippling than similar mess in the
> > > > backend modules. Developers generally place less emphasis on UI
> > > > than backend, since UIs are really much easier to correct in
> > > > comparison.
> > >
> > > The reason it is how it is now is that very few people have the
> > > motivation and means to improve it. Most of the web design folks
> > > don't really use the HTML or CSS from the base template AT ALL.
> > >
> > > A good web design company will start with a graphic design, code it
> > > up in HTML/CSS, and then put that HTML/CSS into the dynamic
> > templates
> > > (FTL files), replacing the dummy text from the design with dynamic
> > > code as needed.
> > >
> > > Two points on this:
> > >
> > > 1. there is no natural feedback cycle here to improve the open
> > source
> > > project
> > > 2. for projects that take this approach the current HTML and CSS
> > > practices in OFBiz are only an example and are mostly thrown away
> > for
> > > real world use
> > >
> > > > I don't know about $2500 pricetag for doing up the UI alone. At
> > > > double that price, you could have a whole new OFBiz tailored for
> > > > your organization (without data migration from legacy systems).
> > >
> > > Wow, where could I get that? If I could get a sub-contractor to do
> > > that much for that price I'd make a killing!
> > >
> > > Please do share...
> > >
> > > > > but I think doubling the price right around the time that the
> > > > project should
> > > > > be completed is not good business.
> > > >
> > > > Oh. Your developers should've fully assessed OFBiz in the early
> > > > stages. This tells me one of many possible things: your
> > contractor
> > > > may not be very IT-savvy, and couldn't assess OFBiz
> > himself/herself
> > > > nor afford a capital outlay to hire a team to do the assessment
> > > > before he/she took the project from you.
> > >
> > > This is a good point. For ecommerce stuff, another important thing
> > is
> > > to make sure they have web design and dynamic web site experience.
> > >
> > > > Lastly, we need to understand that OFBiz is open source. We
> > didn't
> > > > pay anything to use it (unless you bought the docs!)
> > >
> > > If you buy anything from anyone that's what you're buying. You are
> > > NEVER buying OFBiz itself. I assume you are referring to the
> > training
> > > materials from Undersun (well, now from Hotwax). If so, you are not
> > > buying it from "OFBiz" or any organization that owns any of OFBiz.
> > If
> > > you buy the training materials you are paying to use them, not to
> > use
> > > OFBiz, in any way imaginable.
> > >
> > > > I know, the initial knee-jerk reaction is to ask: "Why'd they
> > > > represent it as thus?". Call it bad or inaccurate or back-firing
> > > > marketing if you want, but OFBiz is a solid platform to work
> > with,
> > > > and it's free.
> > >
> > > This is a good point too Jonathon. It does make me wonder though
> > what
> > > Eric saw that represented things to be different than they are.
> > Eric,
> > > perhaps you could comment on that? Was it something on an OFBiz
> > site
> > > or in OFBiz documentation?
> > >
> > > -David
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

Re: ecommerce UI evaluation

[Eric Crawford <ph...@gmail.com>]

David,
 I think you are right. I am pretty sure they expected things to be
similar to another solution they used at www.shopify.com. I am not
familiar with this solution, but I know they feel it is easy to
customize. They just can't seem to understand that ecommerce is only a
small piece of the solution.


On 2/26/07, David E. Jones <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
>
> Eric,
>
> Thanks for the feedback.
>
> I guess the question I had was a little different, namely what made
> them think it would be easy in the first place?
>
> It would obviously depend on what one is used to before looking at
> OFBiz, but I guess for some people working with it would look easy
> (ie coming from SAP or PeopleSoft or something, unless they only
> worked with a specific, small part of it) though for others it would
> look much more difficult (ie coming from oscommerce or even custom
> homegrown apps with limited scope).
>
> Okay, I don't know if those are the best examples, but hopefully the
> point comes through.
>
> -David
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2007, at 6:47 PM, Eric Crawford wrote:
>
> > David,
> > Those comments were actually made by the folks that we hired. I am not
> > sure why they feel that way, but I am certainly going to ask them. I
> > provided them with all the documentation I could get my hands on. I
> > don't see why they think it is so difficult. I am tempted at this
> > point to just have them provide me with the XHTML and CSS that they
> > created and tell them that I will modify the FTL templates. I think it
> > might be a little too much like "real code" for them to understand and
> > they should probably stick to what they are good at.
> >
> > On 2/26/07, David E. Jones <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hey Jonathon, it's great to get your point of view on this.
> >>
> >> That said, I'm sure you know mine is coming... ;) Don't worry I'm not
> >> going to attack what you said, but rather hopefully just explain some
> >> anomalies.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Feb 26, 2007, at 5:05 PM, Jonathon -- Improov wrote:
> >>
> >> > Since they're talking about the UI, then they are somewhat correct.
> >> > Some of the UI use Freemarker, some use form widgets. Also, there's
> >> > a great deal of refactoring going on at the moment for UI (by
> >> > Adrian Crumm). One of the problems with CSS styles usage, just to
> >> > name one UI problem, is that styles don't describe the content but
> >> > the UI attributes instead.
> >>
> >> The ecommerce UI is 100% FreeMarker, the form widget is not used
> >> because the customer facing stuff is meant to be customized in a very
> >> visual way.
> >>
> >> > In general, the UI isn't as cleanly coded as it should be.
> >>
> >> This is certainly true, and probably always will be. However, for
> >> many it doesn't matter so much...
> >>
> >> > But then again, large variety of coding constructs in the UI are to
> >> > be expected, and are less crippling than similar mess in the
> >> > backend modules. Developers generally place less emphasis on UI
> >> > than backend, since UIs are really much easier to correct in
> >> > comparison.
> >>
> >> The reason it is how it is now is that very few people have the
> >> motivation and means to improve it. Most of the web design folks
> >> don't really use the HTML or CSS from the base template AT ALL.
> >>
> >> A good web design company will start with a graphic design, code it
> >> up in HTML/CSS, and then put that HTML/CSS into the dynamic templates
> >> (FTL files), replacing the dummy text from the design with dynamic
> >> code as needed.
> >>
> >> Two points on this:
> >>
> >> 1. there is no natural feedback cycle here to improve the open source
> >> project
> >> 2. for projects that take this approach the current HTML and CSS
> >> practices in OFBiz are only an example and are mostly thrown away for
> >> real world use
> >>
> >> > I don't know about $2500 pricetag for doing up the UI alone. At
> >> > double that price, you could have a whole new OFBiz tailored for
> >> > your organization (without data migration from legacy systems).
> >>
> >> Wow, where could I get that? If I could get a sub-contractor to do
> >> that much for that price I'd make a killing!
> >>
> >> Please do share...
> >>
> >> > > but I think doubling the price right around the time that the
> >> > project should
> >> > > be completed is not good business.
> >> >
> >> > Oh. Your developers should've fully assessed OFBiz in the early
> >> > stages. This tells me one of many possible things: your contractor
> >> > may not be very IT-savvy, and couldn't assess OFBiz himself/herself
> >> > nor afford a capital outlay to hire a team to do the assessment
> >> > before he/she took the project from you.
> >>
> >> This is a good point. For ecommerce stuff, another important thing is
> >> to make sure they have web design and dynamic web site experience.
> >>
> >> > Lastly, we need to understand that OFBiz is open source. We didn't
> >> > pay anything to use it (unless you bought the docs!)
> >>
> >> If you buy anything from anyone that's what you're buying. You are
> >> NEVER buying OFBiz itself. I assume you are referring to the training
> >> materials from Undersun (well, now from Hotwax). If so, you are not
> >> buying it from "OFBiz" or any organization that owns any of OFBiz. If
> >> you buy the training materials you are paying to use them, not to use
> >> OFBiz, in any way imaginable.
> >>
> >> > I know, the initial knee-jerk reaction is to ask: "Why'd they
> >> > represent it as thus?". Call it bad or inaccurate or back-firing
> >> > marketing if you want, but OFBiz is a solid platform to work with,
> >> > and it's free.
> >>
> >> This is a good point too Jonathon. It does make me wonder though what
> >> Eric saw that represented things to be different than they are. Eric,
> >> perhaps you could comment on that? Was it something on an OFBiz site
> >> or in OFBiz documentation?
> >>
> >> -David
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>

Re: ecommerce UI evaluation

["David E. Jones" <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com>]

Eric,

Thanks for the feedback.

I guess the question I had was a little different, namely what made  
them think it would be easy in the first place?

It would obviously depend on what one is used to before looking at  
OFBiz, but I guess for some people working with it would look easy  
(ie coming from SAP or PeopleSoft or something, unless they only  
worked with a specific, small part of it) though for others it would  
look much more difficult (ie coming from oscommerce or even custom  
homegrown apps with limited scope).

Okay, I don't know if those are the best examples, but hopefully the  
point comes through.

-David


On Feb 26, 2007, at 6:47 PM, Eric Crawford wrote:

> David,
> Those comments were actually made by the folks that we hired. I am not
> sure why they feel that way, but I am certainly going to ask them. I
> provided them with all the documentation I could get my hands on. I
> don't see why they think it is so difficult. I am tempted at this
> point to just have them provide me with the XHTML and CSS that they
> created and tell them that I will modify the FTL templates. I think it
> might be a little too much like "real code" for them to understand and
> they should probably stick to what they are good at.
>
> On 2/26/07, David E. Jones <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hey Jonathon, it's great to get your point of view on this.
>>
>> That said, I'm sure you know mine is coming... ;) Don't worry I'm not
>> going to attack what you said, but rather hopefully just explain some
>> anomalies.
>>
>>
>> On Feb 26, 2007, at 5:05 PM, Jonathon -- Improov wrote:
>>
>> > Since they're talking about the UI, then they are somewhat correct.
>> > Some of the UI use Freemarker, some use form widgets. Also, there's
>> > a great deal of refactoring going on at the moment for UI (by
>> > Adrian Crumm). One of the problems with CSS styles usage, just to
>> > name one UI problem, is that styles don't describe the content but
>> > the UI attributes instead.
>>
>> The ecommerce UI is 100% FreeMarker, the form widget is not used
>> because the customer facing stuff is meant to be customized in a very
>> visual way.
>>
>> > In general, the UI isn't as cleanly coded as it should be.
>>
>> This is certainly true, and probably always will be. However, for
>> many it doesn't matter so much...
>>
>> > But then again, large variety of coding constructs in the UI are to
>> > be expected, and are less crippling than similar mess in the
>> > backend modules. Developers generally place less emphasis on UI
>> > than backend, since UIs are really much easier to correct in
>> > comparison.
>>
>> The reason it is how it is now is that very few people have the
>> motivation and means to improve it. Most of the web design folks
>> don't really use the HTML or CSS from the base template AT ALL.
>>
>> A good web design company will start with a graphic design, code it
>> up in HTML/CSS, and then put that HTML/CSS into the dynamic templates
>> (FTL files), replacing the dummy text from the design with dynamic
>> code as needed.
>>
>> Two points on this:
>>
>> 1. there is no natural feedback cycle here to improve the open source
>> project
>> 2. for projects that take this approach the current HTML and CSS
>> practices in OFBiz are only an example and are mostly thrown away for
>> real world use
>>
>> > I don't know about $2500 pricetag for doing up the UI alone. At
>> > double that price, you could have a whole new OFBiz tailored for
>> > your organization (without data migration from legacy systems).
>>
>> Wow, where could I get that? If I could get a sub-contractor to do
>> that much for that price I'd make a killing!
>>
>> Please do share...
>>
>> > > but I think doubling the price right around the time that the
>> > project should
>> > > be completed is not good business.
>> >
>> > Oh. Your developers should've fully assessed OFBiz in the early
>> > stages. This tells me one of many possible things: your contractor
>> > may not be very IT-savvy, and couldn't assess OFBiz himself/herself
>> > nor afford a capital outlay to hire a team to do the assessment
>> > before he/she took the project from you.
>>
>> This is a good point. For ecommerce stuff, another important thing is
>> to make sure they have web design and dynamic web site experience.
>>
>> > Lastly, we need to understand that OFBiz is open source. We didn't
>> > pay anything to use it (unless you bought the docs!)
>>
>> If you buy anything from anyone that's what you're buying. You are
>> NEVER buying OFBiz itself. I assume you are referring to the training
>> materials from Undersun (well, now from Hotwax). If so, you are not
>> buying it from "OFBiz" or any organization that owns any of OFBiz. If
>> you buy the training materials you are paying to use them, not to use
>> OFBiz, in any way imaginable.
>>
>> > I know, the initial knee-jerk reaction is to ask: "Why'd they
>> > represent it as thus?". Call it bad or inaccurate or back-firing
>> > marketing if you want, but OFBiz is a solid platform to work with,
>> > and it's free.
>>
>> This is a good point too Jonathon. It does make me wonder though what
>> Eric saw that represented things to be different than they are. Eric,
>> perhaps you could comment on that? Was it something on an OFBiz site
>> or in OFBiz documentation?
>>
>> -David
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: ecommerce UI evaluation

[Chris Howe <cj...@yahoo.com>]

Eric,
Not to prolong this discussion on the dev list, but by any chance did
the folks you hired make use of the user's mailing list to overcome
their obstacles?  

,Chris


--- Eric Crawford <ph...@gmail.com> wrote:

> David,
> Those comments were actually made by the folks that we hired. I am
> not
> sure why they feel that way, but I am certainly going to ask them. I
> provided them with all the documentation I could get my hands on. I
> don't see why they think it is so difficult. I am tempted at this
> point to just have them provide me with the XHTML and CSS that they
> created and tell them that I will modify the FTL templates. I think
> it
> might be a little too much like "real code" for them to understand
> and
> they should probably stick to what they are good at.
> 
> On 2/26/07, David E. Jones <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Jonathon, it's great to get your point of view on this.
> >
> > That said, I'm sure you know mine is coming... ;) Don't worry I'm
> not
> > going to attack what you said, but rather hopefully just explain
> some
> > anomalies.
> >
> >
> > On Feb 26, 2007, at 5:05 PM, Jonathon -- Improov wrote:
> >
> > > Since they're talking about the UI, then they are somewhat
> correct.
> > > Some of the UI use Freemarker, some use form widgets. Also,
> there's
> > > a great deal of refactoring going on at the moment for UI (by
> > > Adrian Crumm). One of the problems with CSS styles usage, just to
> > > name one UI problem, is that styles don't describe the content
> but
> > > the UI attributes instead.
> >
> > The ecommerce UI is 100% FreeMarker, the form widget is not used
> > because the customer facing stuff is meant to be customized in a
> very
> > visual way.
> >
> > > In general, the UI isn't as cleanly coded as it should be.
> >
> > This is certainly true, and probably always will be. However, for
> > many it doesn't matter so much...
> >
> > > But then again, large variety of coding constructs in the UI are
> to
> > > be expected, and are less crippling than similar mess in the
> > > backend modules. Developers generally place less emphasis on UI
> > > than backend, since UIs are really much easier to correct in
> > > comparison.
> >
> > The reason it is how it is now is that very few people have the
> > motivation and means to improve it. Most of the web design folks
> > don't really use the HTML or CSS from the base template AT ALL.
> >
> > A good web design company will start with a graphic design, code it
> > up in HTML/CSS, and then put that HTML/CSS into the dynamic
> templates
> > (FTL files), replacing the dummy text from the design with dynamic
> > code as needed.
> >
> > Two points on this:
> >
> > 1. there is no natural feedback cycle here to improve the open
> source
> > project
> > 2. for projects that take this approach the current HTML and CSS
> > practices in OFBiz are only an example and are mostly thrown away
> for
> > real world use
> >
> > > I don't know about $2500 pricetag for doing up the UI alone. At
> > > double that price, you could have a whole new OFBiz tailored for
> > > your organization (without data migration from legacy systems).
> >
> > Wow, where could I get that? If I could get a sub-contractor to do
> > that much for that price I'd make a killing!
> >
> > Please do share...
> >
> > > > but I think doubling the price right around the time that the
> > > project should
> > > > be completed is not good business.
> > >
> > > Oh. Your developers should've fully assessed OFBiz in the early
> > > stages. This tells me one of many possible things: your
> contractor
> > > may not be very IT-savvy, and couldn't assess OFBiz
> himself/herself
> > > nor afford a capital outlay to hire a team to do the assessment
> > > before he/she took the project from you.
> >
> > This is a good point. For ecommerce stuff, another important thing
> is
> > to make sure they have web design and dynamic web site experience.
> >
> > > Lastly, we need to understand that OFBiz is open source. We
> didn't
> > > pay anything to use it (unless you bought the docs!)
> >
> > If you buy anything from anyone that's what you're buying. You are
> > NEVER buying OFBiz itself. I assume you are referring to the
> training
> > materials from Undersun (well, now from Hotwax). If so, you are not
> > buying it from "OFBiz" or any organization that owns any of OFBiz.
> If
> > you buy the training materials you are paying to use them, not to
> use
> > OFBiz, in any way imaginable.
> >
> > > I know, the initial knee-jerk reaction is to ask: "Why'd they
> > > represent it as thus?". Call it bad or inaccurate or back-firing
> > > marketing if you want, but OFBiz is a solid platform to work
> with,
> > > and it's free.
> >
> > This is a good point too Jonathon. It does make me wonder though
> what
> > Eric saw that represented things to be different than they are.
> Eric,
> > perhaps you could comment on that? Was it something on an OFBiz
> site
> > or in OFBiz documentation?
> >
> > -David
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 

Re: ecommerce UI evaluation

[Eric Crawford <ph...@gmail.com>]

David,
Those comments were actually made by the folks that we hired. I am not
sure why they feel that way, but I am certainly going to ask them. I
provided them with all the documentation I could get my hands on. I
don't see why they think it is so difficult. I am tempted at this
point to just have them provide me with the XHTML and CSS that they
created and tell them that I will modify the FTL templates. I think it
might be a little too much like "real code" for them to understand and
they should probably stick to what they are good at.

On 2/26/07, David E. Jones <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
>
> Hey Jonathon, it's great to get your point of view on this.
>
> That said, I'm sure you know mine is coming... ;) Don't worry I'm not
> going to attack what you said, but rather hopefully just explain some
> anomalies.
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2007, at 5:05 PM, Jonathon -- Improov wrote:
>
> > Since they're talking about the UI, then they are somewhat correct.
> > Some of the UI use Freemarker, some use form widgets. Also, there's
> > a great deal of refactoring going on at the moment for UI (by
> > Adrian Crumm). One of the problems with CSS styles usage, just to
> > name one UI problem, is that styles don't describe the content but
> > the UI attributes instead.
>
> The ecommerce UI is 100% FreeMarker, the form widget is not used
> because the customer facing stuff is meant to be customized in a very
> visual way.
>
> > In general, the UI isn't as cleanly coded as it should be.
>
> This is certainly true, and probably always will be. However, for
> many it doesn't matter so much...
>
> > But then again, large variety of coding constructs in the UI are to
> > be expected, and are less crippling than similar mess in the
> > backend modules. Developers generally place less emphasis on UI
> > than backend, since UIs are really much easier to correct in
> > comparison.
>
> The reason it is how it is now is that very few people have the
> motivation and means to improve it. Most of the web design folks
> don't really use the HTML or CSS from the base template AT ALL.
>
> A good web design company will start with a graphic design, code it
> up in HTML/CSS, and then put that HTML/CSS into the dynamic templates
> (FTL files), replacing the dummy text from the design with dynamic
> code as needed.
>
> Two points on this:
>
> 1. there is no natural feedback cycle here to improve the open source
> project
> 2. for projects that take this approach the current HTML and CSS
> practices in OFBiz are only an example and are mostly thrown away for
> real world use
>
> > I don't know about $2500 pricetag for doing up the UI alone. At
> > double that price, you could have a whole new OFBiz tailored for
> > your organization (without data migration from legacy systems).
>
> Wow, where could I get that? If I could get a sub-contractor to do
> that much for that price I'd make a killing!
>
> Please do share...
>
> > > but I think doubling the price right around the time that the
> > project should
> > > be completed is not good business.
> >
> > Oh. Your developers should've fully assessed OFBiz in the early
> > stages. This tells me one of many possible things: your contractor
> > may not be very IT-savvy, and couldn't assess OFBiz himself/herself
> > nor afford a capital outlay to hire a team to do the assessment
> > before he/she took the project from you.
>
> This is a good point. For ecommerce stuff, another important thing is
> to make sure they have web design and dynamic web site experience.
>
> > Lastly, we need to understand that OFBiz is open source. We didn't
> > pay anything to use it (unless you bought the docs!)
>
> If you buy anything from anyone that's what you're buying. You are
> NEVER buying OFBiz itself. I assume you are referring to the training
> materials from Undersun (well, now from Hotwax). If so, you are not
> buying it from "OFBiz" or any organization that owns any of OFBiz. If
> you buy the training materials you are paying to use them, not to use
> OFBiz, in any way imaginable.
>
> > I know, the initial knee-jerk reaction is to ask: "Why'd they
> > represent it as thus?". Call it bad or inaccurate or back-firing
> > marketing if you want, but OFBiz is a solid platform to work with,
> > and it's free.
>
> This is a good point too Jonathon. It does make me wonder though what
> Eric saw that represented things to be different than they are. Eric,
> perhaps you could comment on that? Was it something on an OFBiz site
> or in OFBiz documentation?
>
> -David
>
>
>
>

Re: ecommerce UI evaluation

[Adrian Crum <ad...@hlmksw.com>]

David E. Jones wrote:
>> I don't know about $2500 pricetag for doing up the UI alone. At  
>> double that price, you could have a whole new OFBiz tailored for  your 
>> organization (without data migration from legacy systems).
> 
> 
> Wow, where could I get that? If I could get a sub-contractor to do  that 
> much for that price I'd make a killing!
> 
> Please do share...

Hint: offshore labor.

Re: ecommerce UI evaluation

[Jonathon -- Improov <jo...@improov.com>]

David,

 > The ecommerce UI is 100% FreeMarker, the form widget is not used because the
 > customer facing stuff is meant to be customized in a very visual way.

Hmm. Quick question here. Any way I can insert Dojo into form widget? All I really need is to 
attach "onChange/onClick" hooks onto form widget elements (<drop-down>, <text>, etc).

Frankly, I find FreeMarker format clean enough (not messy). Form widget is even leaner. Endeavors 
at across-the-board UI changes, like what Eric's team is doing, shouldn't be too difficult at all.

 >> I don't know about $2500 pricetag for doing up the UI alone. At double
 >> that price, you could have a whole new OFBiz tailored for your
 >> organization (without data migration from legacy systems).
 >
 > Wow, where could I get that? If I could get a sub-contractor to do that much
 > for that price I'd make a killing!

Erm. I do make a living crafting boilerplate systems that can easily empower armies of low-cost 
labor. I was referring more to in-house costs than software vendor prices.

OFBiz itself is such a boilerplate system, and a very powerful slick one at that. Don't you make a 
killing when building systems with OFBiz? I'd have thought you do.

 > This is a good point too Jonathon. It does make me wonder though what Eric
 > saw that represented things to be different than they are. Eric, perhaps you
 > could comment on that? Was it something on an OFBiz site or in OFBiz
 > documentation?

Let me put in my share first. Here's where/how I got that impression (let's not focus on sales 
representation for this).

Fortunately for OFBiz, the Apache brand name brings to mind a solid and well-managed project. I 
got the impression that there are physicists and young PhD hackers on the OFBiz core team. More 
than that, I thought (ignorantly?) that Apache somehow enforces some kind of constructive 
standards and discipline in its projects. Not sure if Apache standards help or hinder, no 
experience there myself.

Unfortunately for OFBiz, that same brand name brings with it some possibly unrealistic expectations.

I just bought a remote RC helicopter. And I know all about unrealistic expectations. After 3 hours 
of training my thumbs, I expected to fly it like I would a real heli. I didn't tune my heli (micro 
frame makes small errors look BIG), didn't trim it for specific flight conditions (hey, I thought 
it's just a toy!). And then I learned this: There's a difference between RTF (ready-to-fly) and 
ARF (almost-ready-to-fly) packages. Now, if I could just get my thumbs to work like arms and legs. 
A big part of the fun with RC helis is becoming quite a heli mechanic yourself (PhD in physics 
should help too).

Jonathon

David E. Jones wrote:
> 
> Hey Jonathon, it's great to get your point of view on this.
> 
> That said, I'm sure you know mine is coming... ;) Don't worry I'm not 
> going to attack what you said, but rather hopefully just explain some 
> anomalies.
> 
> 
> On Feb 26, 2007, at 5:05 PM, Jonathon -- Improov wrote:
> 
>> Since they're talking about the UI, then they are somewhat correct. 
>> Some of the UI use Freemarker, some use form widgets. Also, there's a 
>> great deal of refactoring going on at the moment for UI (by Adrian 
>> Crumm). One of the problems with CSS styles usage, just to name one UI 
>> problem, is that styles don't describe the content but the UI 
>> attributes instead.
> 
> The ecommerce UI is 100% FreeMarker, the form widget is not used because 
> the customer facing stuff is meant to be customized in a very visual way.
> 
>> In general, the UI isn't as cleanly coded as it should be.
> 
> This is certainly true, and probably always will be. However, for many 
> it doesn't matter so much...
> 
>> But then again, large variety of coding constructs in the UI are to be 
>> expected, and are less crippling than similar mess in the backend 
>> modules. Developers generally place less emphasis on UI than backend, 
>> since UIs are really much easier to correct in comparison.
> 
> The reason it is how it is now is that very few people have the 
> motivation and means to improve it. Most of the web design folks don't 
> really use the HTML or CSS from the base template AT ALL.
> 
> A good web design company will start with a graphic design, code it up 
> in HTML/CSS, and then put that HTML/CSS into the dynamic templates (FTL 
> files), replacing the dummy text from the design with dynamic code as 
> needed.
> 
> Two points on this:
> 
> 1. there is no natural feedback cycle here to improve the open source 
> project
> 2. for projects that take this approach the current HTML and CSS 
> practices in OFBiz are only an example and are mostly thrown away for 
> real world use
> 
>> I don't know about $2500 pricetag for doing up the UI alone. At double 
>> that price, you could have a whole new OFBiz tailored for your 
>> organization (without data migration from legacy systems).
> 
> Wow, where could I get that? If I could get a sub-contractor to do that 
> much for that price I'd make a killing!
> 
> Please do share...
> 
>> > but I think doubling the price right around the time that the 
>> project should
>> > be completed is not good business.
>>
>> Oh. Your developers should've fully assessed OFBiz in the early 
>> stages. This tells me one of many possible things: your contractor may 
>> not be very IT-savvy, and couldn't assess OFBiz himself/herself nor 
>> afford a capital outlay to hire a team to do the assessment before 
>> he/she took the project from you.
> 
> This is a good point. For ecommerce stuff, another important thing is to 
> make sure they have web design and dynamic web site experience.
> 
>> Lastly, we need to understand that OFBiz is open source. We didn't pay 
>> anything to use it (unless you bought the docs!)
> 
> If you buy anything from anyone that's what you're buying. You are NEVER 
> buying OFBiz itself. I assume you are referring to the training 
> materials from Undersun (well, now from Hotwax). If so, you are not 
> buying it from "OFBiz" or any organization that owns any of OFBiz. If 
> you buy the training materials you are paying to use them, not to use 
> OFBiz, in any way imaginable.
> 
>> I know, the initial knee-jerk reaction is to ask: "Why'd they 
>> represent it as thus?". Call it bad or inaccurate or back-firing 
>> marketing if you want, but OFBiz is a solid platform to work with, and 
>> it's free.
> 
> This is a good point too Jonathon. It does make me wonder though what 
> Eric saw that represented things to be different than they are. Eric, 
> perhaps you could comment on that? Was it something on an OFBiz site or 
> in OFBiz documentation?
> 
> -David
> 
> 

Re: ecommerce UI evaluation

["David E. Jones" <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com>]

Hey Jonathon, it's great to get your point of view on this.

That said, I'm sure you know mine is coming... ;) Don't worry I'm not  
going to attack what you said, but rather hopefully just explain some  
anomalies.


On Feb 26, 2007, at 5:05 PM, Jonathon -- Improov wrote:

> Since they're talking about the UI, then they are somewhat correct.  
> Some of the UI use Freemarker, some use form widgets. Also, there's  
> a great deal of refactoring going on at the moment for UI (by  
> Adrian Crumm). One of the problems with CSS styles usage, just to  
> name one UI problem, is that styles don't describe the content but  
> the UI attributes instead.

The ecommerce UI is 100% FreeMarker, the form widget is not used  
because the customer facing stuff is meant to be customized in a very  
visual way.

> In general, the UI isn't as cleanly coded as it should be.

This is certainly true, and probably always will be. However, for  
many it doesn't matter so much...

> But then again, large variety of coding constructs in the UI are to  
> be expected, and are less crippling than similar mess in the  
> backend modules. Developers generally place less emphasis on UI  
> than backend, since UIs are really much easier to correct in  
> comparison.

The reason it is how it is now is that very few people have the  
motivation and means to improve it. Most of the web design folks  
don't really use the HTML or CSS from the base template AT ALL.

A good web design company will start with a graphic design, code it  
up in HTML/CSS, and then put that HTML/CSS into the dynamic templates  
(FTL files), replacing the dummy text from the design with dynamic  
code as needed.

Two points on this:

1. there is no natural feedback cycle here to improve the open source  
project
2. for projects that take this approach the current HTML and CSS  
practices in OFBiz are only an example and are mostly thrown away for  
real world use

> I don't know about $2500 pricetag for doing up the UI alone. At  
> double that price, you could have a whole new OFBiz tailored for  
> your organization (without data migration from legacy systems).

Wow, where could I get that? If I could get a sub-contractor to do  
that much for that price I'd make a killing!

Please do share...

> > but I think doubling the price right around the time that the  
> project should
> > be completed is not good business.
>
> Oh. Your developers should've fully assessed OFBiz in the early  
> stages. This tells me one of many possible things: your contractor  
> may not be very IT-savvy, and couldn't assess OFBiz himself/herself  
> nor afford a capital outlay to hire a team to do the assessment  
> before he/she took the project from you.

This is a good point. For ecommerce stuff, another important thing is  
to make sure they have web design and dynamic web site experience.

> Lastly, we need to understand that OFBiz is open source. We didn't  
> pay anything to use it (unless you bought the docs!)

If you buy anything from anyone that's what you're buying. You are  
NEVER buying OFBiz itself. I assume you are referring to the training  
materials from Undersun (well, now from Hotwax). If so, you are not  
buying it from "OFBiz" or any organization that owns any of OFBiz. If  
you buy the training materials you are paying to use them, not to use  
OFBiz, in any way imaginable.

> I know, the initial knee-jerk reaction is to ask: "Why'd they  
> represent it as thus?". Call it bad or inaccurate or back-firing  
> marketing if you want, but OFBiz is a solid platform to work with,  
> and it's free.

This is a good point too Jonathon. It does make me wonder though what  
Eric saw that represented things to be different than they are. Eric,  
perhaps you could comment on that? Was it something on an OFBiz site  
or in OFBiz documentation?

-David

Re: ecommerce UI evaluation

[Jonathon -- Improov <jo...@improov.com>]

Eric,

Since they're talking about the UI, then they are somewhat correct. Some of the UI use Freemarker, 
some use form widgets. Also, there's a great deal of refactoring going on at the moment for UI (by 
Adrian Crumm). One of the problems with CSS styles usage, just to name one UI problem, is that 
styles don't describe the content but the UI attributes instead.

In general, the UI isn't as cleanly coded as it should be.

But then again, large variety of coding constructs in the UI are to be expected, and are less 
crippling than similar mess in the backend modules. Developers generally place less emphasis on UI 
than backend, since UIs are really much easier to correct in comparison.

If they're using Freemarker to customize your UIs, then they shouldn't have any problems at all. 
If they're using OFBiz-specific form widgets, they should buy the comprehensive docs at 
http://www.undersunconsulting.com/ecommerce/control/main , unless they can take apart the OFBiz 
framework themselves (it's open source).

I don't know about $2500 pricetag for doing up the UI alone. At double that price, you could have 
a whole new OFBiz tailored for your organization (without data migration from legacy systems).

Look for competent and agile "hack and slash" developers, not the "we gotta follow protocols 
before things get done" types.

 > but I think doubling the price right around the time that the project should
 > be completed is not good business.

Oh. Your developers should've fully assessed OFBiz in the early stages. This tells me one of many 
possible things: your contractor may not be very IT-savvy, and couldn't assess OFBiz 
himself/herself nor afford a capital outlay to hire a team to do the assessment before he/she took 
the project from you.

 > using XHTML and CSS for layout

I didn't see this. Well, I must say your developers do have a point. Why do you need it all in 
strict XHTML? Why not get things working first, then have your in-house team gradually correct the 
UI to be XHTML-compliant over time?

Lastly, we need to understand that OFBiz is open source. We didn't pay anything to use it (unless 
you bought the docs!), so we really couldn't fault OFBiz for being "oh-so-imperfect". I know, the 
initial knee-jerk reaction is to ask: "Why'd they represent it as thus?". Call it bad or 
inaccurate or back-firing marketing if you want, but OFBiz is a solid platform to work with, and 
it's free.

Jonathon

Eric Crawford wrote:
> Thanks for the comments David. I am mostly trying to determine if
> these guys are just blaming their lack of productivity on the current
> design assuming that I will take their word for it, or if they are
> making accurate statements. I am getting the impression that they are
> in over their heads and they want to make excuses, using the current
> code as a reason for their case. They quoted us $2500 originally to
> design and implement the changes into the ofbiz ecommerce app. This
> price seemed lower than I expected originally, but they are now
> doubling the price after digging into the code. I am all for paying
> someone a fair price for their time and effort, but I think doubling
> the price right around the time that the project should be completed
> is not good business.
> 
> On 2/26/07, David E. Jones <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Feb 26, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Eric Crawford wrote:
>>
>> > We recently hired someone to design our "look and feel" for our ofbiz
>> > based ecommerce site.  They were hired to design the ecommerce site
>> > using XHTML and CSS for layout, complying with web standards and
>> > integrate the changes into the OOTB ofbiz ecommerce code. I am hoping
>> > that someone can tell me if they feel that these are fair arguments
>> > for increasing the originally quoted price, as the original price was
>> > quoted with no knowledge of ofbiz or the technologies used on their
>> > part. Following are some comments that they made about the
>> > design/coding of the out of the box ofbiz ecommerce user interface:
>> >
>> > * coding is a lot messier than the documents claim
>> > * every component has a variable from headline image to tagline
>> > comments and some variables code for a line and some code for 30 lines
>> > * chaotic coding mess and the time and effort involved trying to clean
>> > up OFBiz in an XHTML and Variable standpoint
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, my experience is in the development of back-end systems
>> > and therefore, I am not very familiar with programming for web-based
>> > front ends so I feel like I could use the opinions of the community to
>> > help me determine whether or not these are fair statements.
>> >
>> > Any feedback is appreciated,
>> > Eric
>>
>> I'm not totally sure I understand your questions, so I'll restate
>> them and then give my answer.
>>
>> 1. Are the standard OFBiz ecommerce templates complicated because of
>> the feature richness of the pachage? Yes.
>>
>> 2. Is it a good idea to quote a price for work that you don't
>> understand well and have never done before? No.
>>
>> 3. Is coding public facing applications different than internal
>> applications, ie do the patterns and requirements differ? Yes.
>>
>> 4. Do you have to use all of the variables and every OOTB template in
>> your final design? No, and generally people do not.
>>
>> -David
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 

Re: ecommerce UI evaluation

[Eric Crawford <ph...@gmail.com>]

Thanks for the comments David. I am mostly trying to determine if
these guys are just blaming their lack of productivity on the current
design assuming that I will take their word for it, or if they are
making accurate statements. I am getting the impression that they are
in over their heads and they want to make excuses, using the current
code as a reason for their case. They quoted us $2500 originally to
design and implement the changes into the ofbiz ecommerce app. This
price seemed lower than I expected originally, but they are now
doubling the price after digging into the code. I am all for paying
someone a fair price for their time and effort, but I think doubling
the price right around the time that the project should be completed
is not good business.

On 2/26/07, David E. Jones <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
>
> On Feb 26, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Eric Crawford wrote:
>
> > We recently hired someone to design our "look and feel" for our ofbiz
> > based ecommerce site.  They were hired to design the ecommerce site
> > using XHTML and CSS for layout, complying with web standards and
> > integrate the changes into the OOTB ofbiz ecommerce code. I am hoping
> > that someone can tell me if they feel that these are fair arguments
> > for increasing the originally quoted price, as the original price was
> > quoted with no knowledge of ofbiz or the technologies used on their
> > part. Following are some comments that they made about the
> > design/coding of the out of the box ofbiz ecommerce user interface:
> >
> > * coding is a lot messier than the documents claim
> > * every component has a variable from headline image to tagline
> > comments and some variables code for a line and some code for 30 lines
> > * chaotic coding mess and the time and effort involved trying to clean
> > up OFBiz in an XHTML and Variable standpoint
> >
> > Unfortunately, my experience is in the development of back-end systems
> > and therefore, I am not very familiar with programming for web-based
> > front ends so I feel like I could use the opinions of the community to
> > help me determine whether or not these are fair statements.
> >
> > Any feedback is appreciated,
> > Eric
>
> I'm not totally sure I understand your questions, so I'll restate
> them and then give my answer.
>
> 1. Are the standard OFBiz ecommerce templates complicated because of
> the feature richness of the pachage? Yes.
>
> 2. Is it a good idea to quote a price for work that you don't
> understand well and have never done before? No.
>
> 3. Is coding public facing applications different than internal
> applications, ie do the patterns and requirements differ? Yes.
>
> 4. Do you have to use all of the variables and every OOTB template in
> your final design? No, and generally people do not.
>
> -David
>
>
>

Re: ecommerce UI evaluation

["David E. Jones" <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com>]

On Feb 26, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Eric Crawford wrote:

> We recently hired someone to design our "look and feel" for our ofbiz
> based ecommerce site.  They were hired to design the ecommerce site
> using XHTML and CSS for layout, complying with web standards and
> integrate the changes into the OOTB ofbiz ecommerce code. I am hoping
> that someone can tell me if they feel that these are fair arguments
> for increasing the originally quoted price, as the original price was
> quoted with no knowledge of ofbiz or the technologies used on their
> part. Following are some comments that they made about the
> design/coding of the out of the box ofbiz ecommerce user interface:
>
> * coding is a lot messier than the documents claim
> * every component has a variable from headline image to tagline
> comments and some variables code for a line and some code for 30 lines
> * chaotic coding mess and the time and effort involved trying to clean
> up OFBiz in an XHTML and Variable standpoint
>
> Unfortunately, my experience is in the development of back-end systems
> and therefore, I am not very familiar with programming for web-based
> front ends so I feel like I could use the opinions of the community to
> help me determine whether or not these are fair statements.
>
> Any feedback is appreciated,
> Eric

I'm not totally sure I understand your questions, so I'll restate  
them and then give my answer.

1. Are the standard OFBiz ecommerce templates complicated because of  
the feature richness of the pachage? Yes.

2. Is it a good idea to quote a price for work that you don't  
understand well and have never done before? No.

3. Is coding public facing applications different than internal  
applications, ie do the patterns and requirements differ? Yes.

4. Do you have to use all of the variables and every OOTB template in  
your final design? No, and generally people do not.

-David