[Axis2] IRC chat log 2004-09-29

[Aleksander Slominski <as...@cs.indiana.edu>]

summary: today discussion (hot) topic of discussion (hot) deployment:
http://wiki.apache.org/ws/FrontPage/Architecture/Deployment
and in particular what deployment scenarios should be supported,
packaging, tool ideas, relation of server.xml and WSDL, ...

thanks,

alek

[9/29/2004 8:01 AM] <Srinath_> hi all
[9/29/2004 8:01 AM] <samisa> Hi
[9/29/2004 8:02 AM] <Ajith> hi
[9/29/2004 8:02 AM] <Jaliya> Hi All
[9/29/2004 8:02 AM] -->| Deepal (~deepal@220.247.243.62) has joined #apache-axis
[9/29/2004 8:02 AM] <Deepal> Hi all
[9/29/2004 8:05 AM] <alek> hi all
[9/29/2004 8:05 AM] <sanjiva> Guten abend und morgen all
[9/29/2004 8:05 AM] <sanjiva> ;-)
[9/29/2004 8:05 AM] <alek> Dzien dobry o poranku :)
[9/29/2004 8:05 AM] <Ajith> ????
[9/29/2004 8:06 AM] <Deepal> are U talking english
[9/29/2004 8:06 AM] <Deepal> :)
[9/29/2004 8:06 AM] <Srinath_> alek what is it :)
[9/29/2004 8:06 AM] <samisa> Obviously not :)
[9/29/2004 8:06 AM] <Jaliya> I need to learn that too
[9/29/2004 8:07 AM] <Deepal> BTW toady we try to talk abt Deployemnt
[9/29/2004 8:07 AM] <alek> that is polish :)
[9/29/2004 8:07 AM] <Ajith> aaah
[9/29/2004 8:07 AM] <Ajith> probaly means "hello all" or something
[9/29/2004 8:07 AM] <alek> so i think OM work is well underway
[9/29/2004 8:07 AM] <Ajith> yeah
[9/29/2004 8:08 AM] <alek> maybe we can set to discuss it next week (or when) we have soem performance 
results?
[9/29/2004 8:08 AM] <Deepal> we developed two pototypes
[9/29/2004 8:08 AM] <Ajith> alek : yep that is the idea
[9/29/2004 8:10 AM] <Ajith> So i guess we should talk about other things about axis too
[9/29/2004 8:10 AM] <Ajith> I mean Axis is not only OM
[9/29/2004 8:10 AM] <Deepal> yep Ajith
[9/29/2004 8:10 AM] <alek> did somebody post link about today agenda (deployment)? wiki page link?
[9/29/2004 8:10 AM] <Deepal> we have lot more to discuss
[9/29/2004 8:10 AM] <Ajith> we have the engine,wsdl processing and deployment as well
[9/29/2004 8:10 AM] <Srinath_> for a WSDL discussion glen is missing
[9/29/2004 8:11 AM] <Jaliya> How about enging
[9/29/2004 8:11 AM] <Jaliya> sorry engine
[9/29/2004 8:11 AM] <Ajith> and Chathura with his new WSDL idea
[9/29/2004 8:12 AM] <Deepal> for Deployemnt we have to finalize three Schemas
[9/29/2004 8:12 AM] <sanjiva> ok sounds good - let's try to stick to one topic at a time ;-)
[9/29/2004 8:12 AM] <Deepal> like Server.xml
[9/29/2004 8:12 AM] <sanjiva> which one are we starting with?
[9/29/2004 8:12 AM] <Deepal> service.xml and module.xml
[9/29/2004 8:12 AM] <Ajith> we will talk a littel about deplyment then
[9/29/2004 8:12 AM] <Srinath_> let us start with deployment
[9/29/2004 8:12 AM] <Deepal> yep
[9/29/2004 8:13 AM] <sanjiva> ok
[9/29/2004 8:13 AM] =-= sanjiva has changed the topic to ``Axis2 deployment discussion''
[9/29/2004 8:13 AM] <sanjiva> So, do we have hot deployment yet? ;-)
[9/29/2004 8:14 AM] -->| Chinthaka (~chinthaka@220.247.248.228) has joined #apache-axis
[9/29/2004 8:14 AM] <Srinath_> no deployment implemented at all :) expect programatic deployment
[9/29/2004 8:14 AM] <Ajith> we are hoping to have it! right?
[9/29/2004 8:14 AM] <Deepal> actuallty there are two things called hot Deployemnt and Acive Deployemnt
[9/29/2004 8:14 AM] <Deepal> r u going to support both
[9/29/2004 8:14 AM] <sanjiva> what's active deployment vs. hot?
[9/29/2004 8:14 AM] <Jaliya> ?
[9/29/2004 8:14 AM] <sanjiva> hot means (to me) server is running and I can add another service to it 
without having to restart the server
[9/29/2004 8:15 AM] <Deepal> no Sir that is Active Deployemnt
[9/29/2004 8:15 AM] <alek> i never heard about active deplymnt ...
[9/29/2004 8:15 AM] <samisa> I too have not herd:(
[9/29/2004 8:16 AM] <sanjiva> so what's the diff between hot vs active?
[9/29/2004 8:17 AM] <Deepal> I have explain those two in this link 
http://wiki.apache.org/ws/FrontPage/Architecture/Deployment
[9/29/2004 8:17 AM] <Deepal> under wish list
[9/29/2004 8:17 AM] <Ajith> perhaps this is "hot deployment" and "dynamic reloading"
[9/29/2004 8:18 AM] <Chinthaka> what sanjiwa said was correct wrt to hot deployment is correct
[9/29/2004 8:19 AM] <samisa> I think Ajith is correct
[9/29/2004 8:19 AM] <Srinath_> I think we are talking about hot deployment vs hpt updates?
[9/29/2004 8:19 AM] <samisa> yes more like it
[9/29/2004 8:19 AM] <Srinath_> hotupdates = dynamic reloading
[9/29/2004 8:20 AM] <Srinath_> I think
[9/29/2004 8:20 AM] <Srinath_> hpt=hot :)
[9/29/2004 8:20 AM] <Chinthaka> correct srinath
[9/29/2004 8:20 AM] <samisa> yep
[9/29/2004 8:20 AM] <sanjiva> ok looked at the definitions .. seems like we want hot deployment for 
sure. I'm not sure what 'app archive' means ..
[9/29/2004 8:20 AM] <sanjiva> anyway, let's focus on hot deployment first.
[9/29/2004 8:21 AM] <Deepal> yep
[9/29/2004 8:21 AM] <Jaliya> Yes, I think that was our main concern at the summit
[9/29/2004 8:21 AM] <Ajith> ok I guess all understand what hot deployment means so lets start with that
[9/29/2004 8:21 AM] <Jaliya> one of the main concerns :)
[9/29/2004 8:23 AM] <Deepal> to support Hot Deployement I have two ieads
[9/29/2004 8:23 AM] <Deepal> one is
[9/29/2004 8:23 AM] <Ajith> I have a question ! is this hot deployment like the JBOSS type where u drop 
in a jar (physically in a disc) through the file system or is it like hot deployment with tomacat 
manager app where u update through the application
[9/29/2004 8:24 AM] <Srinath_> I belive both the same thing = hot deployment
[9/29/2004 8:24 AM] <Deepal> thered is ruunig forever and checking a specif folder
[9/29/2004 8:24 AM] <Deepal> whether is changed
[9/29/2004 8:25 AM] <samisa> We have to look at two different things here I believe; New apps vs new 
versions
[9/29/2004 8:25 AM] <Deepal> and scond one is providing WASP like UI to do it
[9/29/2004 8:26 AM] <Deepal> yes Samisa New Apps = Active
[9/29/2004 8:26 AM] <Deepal> new versins = Hot Deployemnt
[9/29/2004 8:26 AM] <sanjiva> Ajith: to me its the JBOSS style where we drop a file in a dir one way or 
the other (locally by copying, ftp'ing or whatever)
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[9/29/2004 8:27 AM] <eXtreme> hello
[9/29/2004 8:27 AM] <Srinath_> sir:I think when we set the core we can have it eithe way we like
[9/29/2004 8:27 AM] <sanjiva> let's focus on new apps first; hot update is a much harder problem and 
hot deploy would be good enough for a start
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[9/29/2004 8:28 AM] <sanjiva> srinath: yes that's true but we need to do one thing to start, so let's 
focus on getting one style of thing working first!
[9/29/2004 8:28 AM] <Deepal> ppl wt u think abt two methods I mentioned
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[9/29/2004 8:28 AM] <sanjiva> hi extreme!
[9/29/2004 8:28 AM] <sanjiva> (extreme == ???)
[9/29/2004 8:28 AM] <eXtreme> hello
[9/29/2004 8:28 AM] <alek> sp both services and modules are to be hot deployable?
[9/29/2004 8:28 AM] <Srinath_> that mast be chintaka :D
[9/29/2004 8:28 AM] <eXtreme> oops we have small prob here connecting
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[9/29/2004 8:29 AM] === eXtreme <~c...@220.247.247.55> ``Eran Chinthaka''
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[9/29/2004 8:29 AM] <Srinath_> Sir:shall we focus on droping a jar
[9/29/2004 8:29 AM] <Ajith0501> we had to login again
[9/29/2004 8:29 AM] <Jaliya5712> Then we need threads
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[9/29/2004 8:29 AM] <Ajith0501> Srinath : we do?
[9/29/2004 8:30 AM] <sanjiva> alek: Yes but modules deployed after a service is deployed don't affect 
previously deployed modules
[9/29/2004 8:30 AM] <Ajith0501> I mean at this stage ?????
[9/29/2004 8:30 AM] <sanjiva> actually I'd be ok with saying modules are deployed at startup and apps hotly
[9/29/2004 8:30 AM] <Deepal> running a thred forever I think lot of overhead , isnt it ?
[9/29/2004 8:30 AM] <sanjiva> that's a very reasonable deployment scenario IMO: People aren't going to 
throw in reliability or ws-sec or ws-tx all of a sudden while the server's running!
[9/29/2004 8:30 AM] <Srinath_> comon it is nothing
[9/29/2004 8:30 AM] <Ajith0501> hmm i wonder how JBoss does it
[9/29/2004 8:30 AM] <Srinath_> deepal
[9/29/2004 8:31 AM] <Chinthaka123> deepal, its sort of a daemon thread
[9/29/2004 8:31 AM] <Chinthaka123> nmo overhead as such
[9/29/2004 8:31 AM] <Deepal> hmm
[9/29/2004 8:31 AM] <sanjiva> yeah, sleep for 10sec, wake up, check the disk, go back to sleep .. no fuss
[9/29/2004 8:31 AM] <Srinath_> yes:that what I mean :)
[9/29/2004 8:31 AM] <Deepal> ok cool
[9/29/2004 8:32 AM] <Ajith0501> ok if its not such a big deal we can always do it
[9/29/2004 8:33 AM] <alek> Sanjiva: can module be deployed only for one or few services?
[9/29/2004 8:33 AM] <Deepal> to go ahead with Deployemnt i think we need to finalize three Schemas
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[9/29/2004 8:33 AM] <Deepal> hi dims
[9/29/2004 8:33 AM] <dims> hi all.
[9/29/2004 8:33 AM] <dims> sorry for the delay
[9/29/2004 8:33 AM] <Ajith0501> Hi Dims
[9/29/2004 8:33 AM] <sanjiva> Alek: IIRC the plan was to say that modules are for the server, you can 
always deploy per-service handlers but you can't deploy per-serivce modules.
[9/29/2004 8:33 AM] <sanjiva> Hiya dims
[9/29/2004 8:34 AM] <dims> am still digging out from my email deluge :(
[9/29/2004 8:34 AM] <Srinath_> yes modules are server level
[9/29/2004 8:34 AM] <Ajith0501> I guess modules are global
[9/29/2004 8:34 AM] <alek> so if you have WS-security module it applies to all services?
[9/29/2004 8:34 AM] <Srinath_> :)
[9/29/2004 8:34 AM] <sanjiva> Alek: going beyond that seems YAGNI to me!
[9/29/2004 8:34 AM] <sanjiva> yes but that doesn't mean its turned on for all services .. that's a 
policy issue
[9/29/2004 8:35 AM] <sanjiva> (or some deployment time indication of what modules apply)
[9/29/2004 8:35 AM] <Srinath_> alek:no service can ref to the module
[9/29/2004 8:35 AM] <sanjiva> basically its *available* for all services
[9/29/2004 8:35 AM] <Srinath_> then they turn on
[9/29/2004 8:35 AM] <Ajith0501> that is right
[9/29/2004 8:37 AM] <sanjiva> so, what are we deploying? I mean what's the packaging structure?
[9/29/2004 8:37 AM] <alek> so that implies that you need to hot deploy a module if new service service 
reference currently not available modules?
[9/29/2004 8:37 AM] <alek> or just fail ...
[9/29/2004 8:37 AM] <Deepal> I think that is on wiki
[9/29/2004 8:37 AM] <Deepal> I mean packaging strcuture
[9/29/2004 8:37 AM] <Ajith0501> so lets talk about the packaging structure for service
[9/29/2004 8:38 AM] <Ajith0501> I huess the one in Wiki is resonably OK
[9/29/2004 8:38 AM] <Deepal> http://wiki.apache.org/ws/FrontPage/Architecture/Deployment
[9/29/2004 8:38 AM] <Ajith0501> oops I mean guess
[9/29/2004 8:40 AM] <dims> Does anyone need anything from me? (Karma/VOTE/Infra stuff...)
[9/29/2004 8:40 AM] <dims> am yet to review the 2 proposals
[9/29/2004 8:40 AM] <sanjiva> Someone has to edit the wiki page and do a few spelling corrections ;-)
[9/29/2004 8:41 AM] <sanjiva> Deepal, you said you found a word -> Wiki thing right? Can that help??
[9/29/2004 8:41 AM] <dims> as usual :)
[9/29/2004 8:41 AM] <alek> i thnk it should be resolver not "Phased Handler revolver" in 
http://wiki.apache.org/ws/FrontPage/Architecture/Engine :)
[9/29/2004 8:41 AM] <sanjiva> BTW there are a few spelling mistakes in the prototypes too .. we need to 
correct them :) I'll help!
[9/29/2004 8:41 AM] <Ajith0501> I guess that was a word macro to convert a word doc into wiki format
[9/29/2004 8:41 AM] <Srinath_> yap
[9/29/2004 8:41 AM] <Chinthaka123> :D
[9/29/2004 8:42 AM] <Ajith0501> I guess we can release Dims ! is it guys?
[9/29/2004 8:43 AM] <Srinath_> yap we will coming after .. if need something :)
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[9/29/2004 8:43 AM] <Ajith0501> BTW i have a question
[9/29/2004 8:44 AM] =-= Chinthaka123 is now known as Chinthaka
[9/29/2004 8:44 AM] <dims> thx. will be back full-time on monday
[9/29/2004 8:44 AM] <Deepal> Ajith : reagarding wt
[9/29/2004 8:45 AM] <Ajith0501> regarding the foramt
[9/29/2004 8:45 AM] <Ajith0501> are we going to bundle up a whole set of services and modules into one 
package
[9/29/2004 8:46 AM] <Ajith0501> I mean my guess is these services and modules are like webapps to a 
servlet contaner
[9/29/2004 8:46 AM] <Ajith0501> which should be packaged seperately and deployed individually
[9/29/2004 8:47 AM] <Ajith0501> I am thinking about tomcat
[9/29/2004 8:47 AM] <Srinath_> yes
[9/29/2004 8:47 AM] <sanjiva> +1 for deploying separately
[9/29/2004 8:47 AM] -->| Ias (~chatzilla@bucket6.ncl.ac.uk) has joined #apache-axis
[9/29/2004 8:48 AM] <sanjiva> hi Ias!
[9/29/2004 8:48 AM] <Ias> Hi all!
[9/29/2004 8:48 AM] <Ajith0501> Hi Ias
[9/29/2004 8:48 AM] <Deepal> Hi Ias
[9/29/2004 8:48 AM] <Chinthaka> one can get some idea about hot deployment from WASP (not promoting 
that :) )
[9/29/2004 8:48 AM] <Chinthaka> 
http://www.systinet.com/doc/wasp_jserver-47/waspj/using.persistent.deployment.html
[9/29/2004 8:49 AM] <sanjiva> So shall we talk about the format for deploying services?
[9/29/2004 8:49 AM] <sanjiva> I was pushing for the wsdl style earlier but now I'm willing to +1 for 
service.xml ..
[9/29/2004 8:51 AM] <alek> is description of using WSDL as deplyment format described somewhere?
[9/29/2004 8:51 AM] <sanjiva> yeah its in the original notes and the page that Deepal pointed to ..
[9/29/2004 8:52 AM] <sanjiva>  basically I was trying to propose a WSDL "axis" binding .. ala WSIF 
style. I proposed that a few years back too (and got rejected) but tried again and got a bit more 
traction this time! But now I think I see the light of having our own clean little service.xml file 
instead.
[9/29/2004 8:52 AM] <Ajith0501> is it WSDL style or WSDD style
[9/29/2004 8:52 AM] <Ajith0501> ?
[9/29/2004 8:52 AM] <sanjiva> Ajith: look at the wiki page Deepal pointed to - its 1.6.3.1 "Axis 
binding .."
[9/29/2004 8:53 AM] <Srinath_> what are the other place that need thought in DD's
[9/29/2004 8:53 AM] <Ajith0501> aah I just saw the first one
[9/29/2004 8:54 AM] <alek> i thin kit is " Axis Binding for Web Services"?
[9/29/2004 8:55 AM] <sanjiva> yes
[9/29/2004 8:55 AM] <Ajith0501> It seems we can go with either!
[9/29/2004 8:56 AM] <Ajith0501> only a matter of taste :)
[9/29/2004 8:56 AM] <Deepal> hmmm
[9/29/2004 8:56 AM] <sanjiva> yeah either will work .. legacy compatibility would recommend going with 
service.xml
[9/29/2004 8:57 AM] <Ajith0501> hmmmm
[9/29/2004 8:57 AM] <Srinath_> what should be the fields that define the phased info about handers
[9/29/2004 8:57 AM] <Srinath_> ?
[9/29/2004 8:58 AM] <sanjiva> Srinath: I don't understand
[9/29/2004 8:58 AM] <Ajith0501> we can have a converter to old format to new format if we wanted to
[9/29/2004 8:58 AM] <Deepal>  i agree with Ajith
[9/29/2004 8:58 AM] <sanjiva> yes that's not a bad idea .. can we start a wiki page for tool ideas and 
write that down? That way if a new volunteer comes along that's a useful little thing to write.
[9/29/2004 8:58 AM] <Ajith0501> I mean we can adopt the new format if we want to
[9/29/2004 8:59 AM] <sanjiva> shall we also store wsdl files in the META-INF directory?
[9/29/2004 8:59 AM] <Srinath_> sir:the parameter in handlers that explains the where it should be 
placed in phased flow
[9/29/2004 9:00 AM] <sanjiva> ah yes
[9/29/2004 9:00 AM] <Srinath_> +1 for META-INF
[9/29/2004 9:00 AM] <Deepal> in 1.6.1 there two difinitins for Handlers
[9/29/2004 9:00 AM] <sanjiva> again let's start with minimal ..
[9/29/2004 9:00 AM] <Deepal> which one should we use
[9/29/2004 9:00 AM] <Ajith0501> ok we can put it into Meta-inf (actually the name metainf matches the 
purpose)
[9/29/2004 9:00 AM] <samisa> what is the advantage of having WSDL in META-INF?
[9/29/2004 9:00 AM] <sanjiva> how about starting with deploying a service with no handlers first; get 
that descriptor and details sorted out and then add handlers
[9/29/2004 9:01 AM] <sanjiva> Samisa: Then from service.xml we can refer to the interface of the 
service etc. by QName and assume that the details of that can be resolved by loading the WSDLs from the 
META-INF directory
[9/29/2004 9:01 AM] <sanjiva> we don't need to directly indicate the WSDL file or URL name in 
service.xml then
[9/29/2004 9:02 AM] <samisa> ok got it
[9/29/2004 9:02 AM] <sanjiva> How about I take a crack at providing a better definition of service.xml 
for next week?
[9/29/2004 9:02 AM] <sanjiva> (I've been thinking about it ..)
[9/29/2004 9:02 AM] <Srinath_> yes
[9/29/2004 9:02 AM] <Ajith0501> yeah that is better
[9/29/2004 9:02 AM] <sanjiva> [its nearly time to call it quits]
[9/29/2004 9:04 AM] <Ias> +1 for next week.
[9/29/2004 9:04 AM] <Srinath_> :)
[9/29/2004 9:04 AM] <samisa> :)
[9/29/2004 9:04 AM] <Deepal> ias u were here only 20 mints :)
[9/29/2004 9:04 AM] <Ias> :-)
[9/29/2004 9:05 AM] <sanjiva> ok .. gotta go guys. good nite (SL) / afternoon (uk) / morning (us) .. 
bye ;-)
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[9/29/2004 9:05 AM] <Deepal> bye all and lets meets next week
[9/29/2004 9:05 AM] <samisa> Bye for now
[9/29/2004 9:05 AM] <Jaliya5712> Bye all
[9/29/2004 9:05 AM] <--| samisa has left #apache-axis ("Leaving")
[9/29/2004 9:06 AM] <Srinath_> bye
[9/29/2004 9:06 AM] =-= Srinath_ has changed the topic to ``apache-axis''
[9/29/2004 9:06 AM] <dims> bye
[9/29/2004 9:07 AM] <Ajith0501> Byeeeeee
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[9/29/2004 9:14 AM] <alek> bye
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