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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@nc.rr.com> on 2002/01/07 21:44:50 UTC
crushed
Guys,
This whole experience has become a bit disheartening. Craig McClanahan
who is like an idol of mine said this:
"
We will continue to do what we've done in the past -- reject projects
that
only want the "name recognition" value of being under Apache, and don't
have a development community compatible with Apache's style. That's
much
more important than whether it's server-side versus client-side, or in
one
repository versus another.
"
Seemingly directed at POI. I DO have to admit, I like the idea of name
recognition, anyone who says they don't is a liar and I have a mortgage
to pay, a family and live in what is currently the economic black hole
of my country (if Marc hasn't gotten a job yet, being twice as smart as
I am, then I'm screwed), but my most selfish motivations are more in the
area of I never want to use IIS again if possible or even look at
Windows NT outside of my VMWARE (hopefully one day bochs or plex86)
POI-testing window.
Marc said this best to me in gaim:
"the number one way we get paid for our open source work is by the
recognition we get. what's wrong with wanting more? but ... that's not
all we're in this for ... the opportunity to do good work that is of
benefit to the Community ... the opportunity to publicly tweak Bill
Gates' nose ... we have noble aims here
"
What is sad is Tomcat is part of why I started this project. If I can
do my part to make it so there is no reason NOT to use Tomcat or other
Apache projects that I've used so much (or could use if they had POI),
thats what I'm going to do. If I can't do it from the inside I'll do it
from the outside, I guess I'll feel a bit hurt, but I can deal with
that. I don't speak for Marc, but I know he feels the same way.
I was fine until people started attacking our motives (without any
basis). And even then I was even still mostly okay until Craig did (who
I'd still probably ask for his autograph or something if I met him) and
I never even saw him in the discussion.
I started this project while on contract at a local chemical company
thinking damn I hate helping Actuate make another 10 grand. (I had no
problem paying Tidestone $300 for the same product once even out of my
own pocket). I thought, I'd far rather use Tomcat then WebSphere (no
offense Sam) and I'd far rather use Cocoon then Actuate. I started this
project originally with the idea of donating the whole thing to Cocoon,
but I kept finding that there were more layers and the puzzle became
just as interesting and as important as the "business case" (because I'm
100% geek thats even my gaim id: javageek02) and to encapsulate it
properly Marc and I developed pieces that didn't directly fit in to the
Cocoon puzzle but had great uses elsewhere. Plus there was always a
"lets make the project expandable so others can use the pieces to thier
aims" (a guy from a western European national/international airline
used POIFS on some file format I'd never heard of). When Stefano said
"lets take the APIs to Jakarta" I stumbled first then I was like "he's
right" it goes right along with what we had in mind when designing the
APIs the only parts that make sense in Cocoon are the Serializers and
Generators.
Regardless of what happens POI will be a success. When the guy from
Actuate wrote me a "good luck and eat your heart out" message it hit me
"this is for real".
If POI does make it I'm not sure I should monitor this (general@jakarta)
list too closely. Its very negative. The project lists are far more
positive and Apache was always ground up and not top down (doesn't the
name even mean a-patch-y server?). Lately this list seems to be the
place for anyone with a gripe to yell "The sky is falling", you can say
"Hey here's ideas on how to shore it up a bit" but I think many folks on
the list aren't listening to each other let alone to someone from the
outer circle.
Its funny I kind of agree with some (but not all) of the points that Jon
guy makes but he seems to want to make them in such a way that they are
divisive instead of providing the leadership Stefano praises him for.
Leadership is taking the boat and sailing it and inviting others to come
along not sitting in the back complaining about the heading or
proclaiming "its just going to sink and the hell with you all maybe I'll
quit". I hope he sees this and becomes the guy Stefano says he is.
Stefano, I'm not sure we really made any progress with the request for
comment. Less folks asked questions so much as made statements w/o even
looking at the project (which I don't think is what we meant by request
for comment) and I get the feeling half of those who did didn't even
LOOK at the answers (even the ones that didn't bounce because TW NC's
Road Runner SMTP server sucks - and you can quote me on that). I mean
lets go ahead with the proposal (final draft in the making), but I can't
imagine it going well. Especially with the peculiar talk that our
little project could destroy the apache community singlehandedly.
Whatever happens I hope to continue working with you.
-Andy
cc: Craig R. McClanahan - because I don't mean to speak behind his
back.
--
www.superlinksoftware.com
www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
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Re: crushed
Posted by Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch>.
At 13:11 07.01.2002 -0800, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>on 1/7/02 12:44 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> I think many folks on
>> the list aren't listening to each other let alone to someone from the
>> outer circle.
>
>That is my complaint about not just this list, but the entire project. We
>have people like Ted and Craig who are perfectly happy just sitting in their
>bubble sub-projects and doing whatever they want and you have people like
>myself who see a larger picture of what Jakarta is (or could be) and want to
>see people work together more and create less duplication of exactly the
>same functionality. Yes, that statement is based on their previous postings.
>
>> Its funny I kind of agree with some (but not all) of the points that Jon
>> guy makes but he seems to want to make them in such a way that they are
>> divisive instead of providing the leadership Stefano praises him for.
>> Leadership is taking the boat and sailing it and inviting others to come
>> along not sitting in the back complaining about the heading or
>> proclaiming "its just going to sink and the hell with you all maybe I'll
>> quit". I hope he sees this and becomes the guy Stefano says he is.
>
>The problem is that I feel like the boat has already capsized, sank and
>rotted on the ocean floor. At this point, I'm pretty disheartened about
>Jakarta...more so than I have felt in over 6 years of being here. I have no
>other way to express my unhappiness than to express it by saying it. I feel
>like I can't change things anymore and about the only person who could is
>Sam, but I am not seeing him take the reigns in such a way to rebuild the
>ship...only to try to a lifeboat together over the next few years...
>
>If you look at how Scarab is run, we are pretty damn successful at this
>point with regards to building and managing a strong developer community
>around it. And it isn't even a Jakarta project. I personally see the model I
>have used for Scarab as pretty close to right way to run projects.
>
>Not that it is a contest, but I can guarantee I feel more crushed than you.
Have many developers does scarab have, 10? Jakarta has around 200 committers plus ten times that many developers. At 200'000 USD per committer that's a budget of 40'000'000 USD a year. I'd estimate the budget of an equivalently sized software company at 100'000'000 USD year. You think that's easy to manage? Sam's vision differs from yours and mine. That does not mean he is wrong and that you are right. Anyway, what is exactly your vision? and how would you go about getting there? (How can you force people to cooperate more?)
How many places do you know where people keep arguing and arguing and still stick around? The only other place I know is my family.
--
Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch
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Re: crushed
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 1/7/02 2:20 PM, "Paul Hammant" <Pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> We should be careful turning away projects as they may end up as GPL
> <spit>.
Now that is the funniest reason I have heard for accepting projects here!
:-) Thanks. I needed a good laugh.
-jon
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Re: crushed
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@yahoo.com>.
Andrew,
Don't be disheartened. Regroup and come back later. (ref : Robert the
Bruce and the Spider).
1) Build a bigger community that is active behind POI,
2) Add value to the project by making sure it can run inside as many
contexts as possible,
3) possibly depend on more Apache projects,
4) move snippets of code out of your project, if possible, to Apache
projects (or sub projects) if (3) is an inexact hit. i.e. donation.
*Opinion*
We should be careful turning away projects as they may end up as GPL
<spit>. Perhaps like Commons, there should be an open proving ground
for those wishing to make steps into the Apache world. In there rules
could be limited to "thou shalt not advertise this as an Apache
project". Maybe some mentoring - "depend less on the file system", "how
about a remote management console", "what about the XYZ pattern". If
mentoring is too heavy, maybe a three monthly review.
Regards,
- Paul H
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Re: crushed
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
+1
"Andrew C. Oliver" wrote:
> I mean lets go ahead with the proposal (final draft in the making)
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RE: crushed
Posted by Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>.
> Look at TC3 vs TC4 - I subscribed about a year ago to their dev
> list and the
> relationships between the two groups were less than good and a few people
> were trying to make the division even greater .. apparently now
> all is good over there.
Keep in mind (maybe not Peter but other readers of this post) that:
1) Both groups always had common long term objectives but disagreed on the
way to achieve them or had different short term targets;
2) If there had been a strict imposition from above, TC3.3 could have been
forked and a lot of that group could have gone elsewhere. Maybe this
would have permanently destroyed many synergies between the 2 groups
that were always there (like with the connectors) and others that are
now evolving.
In the process, maybe some TC3.3 ideas proved their worth to some TC4
guys, which means increased cross pollination.
In this case strict control would have prevented several positive things
from happening.
Similar situation with the Logging APIs, just that this time on separate
projects:
1) Now both groups are quite a bit incompatible and forcing a merge would
destroy or send away one of the projects;
2) Still, some projects prefer Log4J and others LogKit;
3) Each of these Logging libraries seems to have its advantages and
different strong and week spots. I am quite sure of this since at the
company I work for we have been using LogKit and Log4J for different
projects and I have been doing some logging work with both;
4) The need of other projects (e.g.: commons components) to use both is
already putting some pressure into cross pollination. With time, it
can happen that:
- They will finally be able to merge;
- One of them will learn all the advantages from the other and
become dominant.
Either way, positive cross pollination is bound to happen.
This is why I would prefer to have both projects around instead of just
forcing them to merge. Lets put some peer pressure on them without
destroying them.
Many general strict rules - like forcing to merge what seems to be the
same thing - would be very destructive in this kind of situation.
Common sense must be applied (like: "no, you can not fork Tomcat in
another project") on a case by case basis.
And yes, I am aware of how uncommon common sense seems to be but I still
believe there is enough of it around here.
Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:peter@apache.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:12 PM
>
>
> On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:02, Jeff Turner wrote:
> > I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails
> > on design:
> >
> > "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
> > is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
> > line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
> > going to consistently know where you actually want to end up? It's
> > not like we know that B is our final destination."
> >
> > -- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398
>
> Choice is fine and the more the better. However I would much
> prefer that all
> Xs were implemented by one project where X is whatever we are
> talking about.
> Look at TC3 vs TC4 - I subscribed about a year ago to their dev
> list and the
> relationships between the two groups were less than good and a few people
> were trying to make the division even greater .. apparently now
> all is good
> over there.
>
> Isn't that a better solution than having projects side by side
> "competing"?
> Sure it may be rocky for a bit but it is better for Apache in the
> end (though
> maybe less ego stroking for the individual developers).
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Pete
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> First, we shape our tools, thereafter, they shape us.
> -----------------------------------------------------
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Re: crushed
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:02, Jeff Turner wrote:
> I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails
> on design:
>
> "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
> is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
> line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
> going to consistently know where you actually want to end up? It's
> not like we know that B is our final destination."
>
> -- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398
Choice is fine and the more the better. However I would much prefer that all
Xs were implemented by one project where X is whatever we are talking about.
Look at TC3 vs TC4 - I subscribed about a year ago to their dev list and the
relationships between the two groups were less than good and a few people
were trying to make the division even greater .. apparently now all is good
over there.
Isn't that a better solution than having projects side by side "competing"?
Sure it may be rocky for a bit but it is better for Apache in the end (though
maybe less ego stroking for the individual developers).
--
Cheers,
Pete
-----------------------------------------------------
First, we shape our tools, thereafter, they shape us.
-----------------------------------------------------
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Re: crushed
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@socialchange.net.au>.
On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 03:44:50PM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Guys,
>
> This whole experience has become a bit disheartening. Craig McClanahan
> who is like an idol of mine said this:
>
> "
> We will continue to do what we've done in the past -- reject projects
> that only want the "name recognition" value of being under Apache, and
> don't have a development community compatible with Apache's style.
> That's much more important than whether it's server-side versus
> client-side, or in one repository versus another.
> "
>
> Seemingly directed at POI.
I don't see what the problem is. Read it carefully.. for that statement
to apply, POI would have to:
- _only_ want the name recognition.
- have a development community incompatible with Apache's style
Do either of those statements apply to POI?
Incidentally, the other statement Craig made in that email sums it all
up for me:
>> The point from Jon that I *do* dismiss is his feeling that there
>> should be one and only one implementation of any particular
>> functionality -- "one size fits all" is a very rare phenomenon in my
>> experience, and having some choice is helpful.
I have _never_ seen a user complain about having too many choices. Not
even between notorious duplications like Tomcat 3/4 and Crimson/Xerces.
I _have_ seen users want comparisons, and better docs to help them make
the choice.
Choice is good. Documented choice is infinitely better :)
I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails
on design:
"The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
going to consistently know where you actually want to end up? It's
not like we know that B is our final destination."
-- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398
--Jeff
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Re: crushed
Posted by Micael Padraig Og mac Grene <ca...@harbornet.com>.
At 03:44 PM 1/7/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Guys,
>
>This whole experience has become a bit disheartening. Craig McClanahan
>who is like an idol of mine said this:
What I like most about Craig is that he is concise and accurate.
- micael
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Re: crushed
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On 7 Jan 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> This whole experience has become a bit disheartening. Craig McClanahan
> who is like an idol of mine said this:
>
> "
> We will continue to do what we've done in the past -- reject projects
> that
> only want the "name recognition" value of being under Apache, and don't
> have a development community compatible with Apache's style. That's
> much
> more important than whether it's server-side versus client-side, or in
> one
> repository versus another.
> "
>
> Seemingly directed at POI.
I know it's hard to tell from the convoluted way this thread have gone
back and forth, but the comment above was not intended to have *anything*
to do with POI specifically, or the proposal to move POI to Apache. It
was a response to Ceki's concern about how to keep Jakarta from being just
a SourceForge-type code repository.
I'm trying to digest the discussions about POI, but they keep getting
buried in the discussions about Jakarta's future ... I haven't made up
my mind yet on this specific proposal.
Craig
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Re: crushed
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> If you look at how Scarab is run, we are pretty damn successful at this
> point with regards to building and managing a strong developer community
> around it. And it isn't even a Jakarta project. I personally see the model I
> have used for Scarab as pretty close to right way to run projects.
I don't suppose there is any potential for tigris.org becoming an ASF
Project.
Which is to say, could we create a Tigris-like ASF Project, with Jon at
the helm?
-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/
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Re: crushed
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 1/7/02 12:44 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> I think many folks on
> the list aren't listening to each other let alone to someone from the
> outer circle.
That is my complaint about not just this list, but the entire project. We
have people like Ted and Craig who are perfectly happy just sitting in their
bubble sub-projects and doing whatever they want and you have people like
myself who see a larger picture of what Jakarta is (or could be) and want to
see people work together more and create less duplication of exactly the
same functionality. Yes, that statement is based on their previous postings.
> Its funny I kind of agree with some (but not all) of the points that Jon
> guy makes but he seems to want to make them in such a way that they are
> divisive instead of providing the leadership Stefano praises him for.
> Leadership is taking the boat and sailing it and inviting others to come
> along not sitting in the back complaining about the heading or
> proclaiming "its just going to sink and the hell with you all maybe I'll
> quit". I hope he sees this and becomes the guy Stefano says he is.
The problem is that I feel like the boat has already capsized, sank and
rotted on the ocean floor. At this point, I'm pretty disheartened about
Jakarta...more so than I have felt in over 6 years of being here. I have no
other way to express my unhappiness than to express it by saying it. I feel
like I can't change things anymore and about the only person who could is
Sam, but I am not seeing him take the reigns in such a way to rebuild the
ship...only to try to a lifeboat together over the next few years...
If you look at how Scarab is run, we are pretty damn successful at this
point with regards to building and managing a strong developer community
around it. And it isn't even a Jakarta project. I personally see the model I
have used for Scarab as pretty close to right way to run projects.
Not that it is a contest, but I can guarantee I feel more crushed than you.
-jon
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